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Helath just saw your post. I found it thanks again.
“According to Merriam – Webster dictionary a magazine is one the definitions of “Book!”
Sorry for being petty, granted a magaize is as good as a book, that was a silly aside. My point is none of the sources you cited indicated “there is a difference between 1 & 2”
one source, incorrectly interpreted by you as explained, indicates that one car accidents dont leave skid marks (AGAIN THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BOOK SAYS, though cant fault you for misremebering such an old book)
another source said that no skid marks should prompt workup for medical managment. – this is actually interesting though not what you have been saying
You very cleverly made a gezeira shava between the two.
But no book/magazine /journal etc that tyou have thus far provided indicates that “there is a difference between 1 & 2”
“Again your whole post is geared towards proving me wrong!”
Yep, I grant that it is pretty petty at this point, and a waste of my time, but
a. I find your persistence fascinating
b. There isnt much else in the coffee room interesting to me now
c. I miss silly “hock” for hock’s sake from my yeshiva days (this is waht got me to the Coffee room in the first place)
d. Its been going this long, Im wondering how long we can keep it up. (believe it or not Ive actually grown quite fond of you. The “research” did not dissapoint)
Never mind health I found the book!!
thanks again
Your bekius is outstanding! you remeber from a book published in 1981 that it no way relates to medical managment?
I’m more than happy to explain why ypour entire gezeira shava is flawed. But I dont want to detract from earlier questions.
(briefly the non-contact veichle is not directly involved in the accident. EG Driver a is driving in Rt lane driver b swerves into rt lane forcing driver a off the road and into a tree. Driver b speeds off (driver b is the NCV that doesnt leave skid marks) driver a WOULD most liekly leave skid marks but either way such an accident involving a NCV is in no way related to a medical condition)
BTW i am truly impressed with your research, although it is probably your most illogical post to date, your persistence is truly remarkable.
Ive underestimated you. Kudos I knew it wouldnt dissapoint, and am glad we continued this long
Thanks a lot Health.
sorry to bother you but a few questions
1) First and formost, aAre yous ure you spelled the neame correctly a google search only reveales a 92 page report ojn invistigating mechanical casues (not medical) of an accident.
Are you sure regarding tuitle, can you please proivide author, or publisher to make it easier to find?
2) you realize you arent providing a book that says “there is a difference between 1 & 2” at least regarding medical causes. Right? (in fact it isnt even a book, where you telling the truth when you said this?
3) out of curiosity, Did you look this up before you started the thread or did you search for it afterwards?
Of course your gezeira shava skid marks-skid marks is also flawed but at least you provided some reasrch. thank you it is actually interesting
By the way, instead of differentiating between the numbe rof cars based on a tenious gezeira shava, why not differentiate based on presence of skidmarks?
(which is waht EMS world says)
What is the kedusha of your holy prophecies doing online?
Find a street corner and spout your nonsense there
Health
You said that “books” say “there is a difference between 1 & 2”
Hold off on posting the research for now (though I am excited to see it when you have more time)
Just a book title will do.
Thank you so much.
Avram lol
It wouldeve been easier to just tell me the name of any book that says “There is a difference between 1&2”
“Why can’t you wait till I have time? “
How long can that take?
how long is the title?
It has got to be shorter than your shortest post on this thread
Please please please, I am asking very nicely.
Health
“For the umteenth time, that was just a response to a poster”
Nope, it is the second time. And As I said I misunderstood.
“But there is a difference between 1 & 2 that’s written in books. “
Whoah slow down. Earlier you admited this was your own chiddush.
Here : http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/treatment/page/3#post-590183
I thought we were making progress 🙁
“that’s written in books”
Please please please tell me one book (I dont need “books” one will suffice, where this is written.) Ive been asking no fewer than 10 times already. Others have also been asking.
That is really all I want to know.
If you want you can skip your “Research” (though I do look forward to your sharing it.
You can keep ignoring most of the direct questions Ive asked. Please just answer this one. What book says there is a difference based on the number of cars?
“””Is this not what you meant?” Yes, obviously.”
If it isnt what you meant My sincerest apologies.
“Do you do that to your wife also?”
Do what? I’m not sure how you made that connection
Do you mean ignore direct questions, and continuously change what you are saying while denying you did that, and refuse to apologize for insulting others and outright misleading/lying?. No that’s you. Do you do that to your wife?
“I’ll try for next week.”
I’m excited Though if easier, all i really want is the name of ONE book
that says “there is a difference between 1 & 2”
Is that too much to ask?
2scents
I know, it is my bizzare morbid fascination driving me
Health
“About why I decided there was a difference between 1 & 2 cars.
I wasn’t talking about the reality between 1 & 2.”
I’m sorry I dont follow. You said that medical conditions only need to be considred with one car (you later changed to at least need to be considered). One of those conditions was “drunk” when asked why it is more likely that a drunk would hit a tree (one car) than another car (2 cars) you replied that “At this time it’s late at night when there is no or not a lot of traffic around. But you’re right – it’s not more likely to hit a tree than a car when there is traffic around! ”
In other words during the day “when there is traffic around” It is NOT more likely that one car accident is caused by drunk driving than multiple cars. Is this not what you meant?
“The research that I was talking about I haven’t posted yet.
I’ll post it when I have the time! “
I’m so excited!
Do you have an approximate time frame for when itll be available?
Health
“-“(you also severely limited your case to late at night when there is no traffic, these limitations were not in the OP)”
What are you talking about?!? You are clueless!”
Now granted its hard to keep track of “the purpose of this topic” since it changed several times. But at that point you seemed to be saying that the only time a 1 car accident was “more probable” to be the result of drunk driving was late at night but during the day with two cars it wa sno mor likely (super sorry if I misunderstood, or if you changed your mind since then since you probably did, in which case forget that limitation)
“I knew it from many years ago. Your posts are getting more illogical!”
How? (for the third time)
and how did you expect others to research it?
“Look EMS should always look for medical causes, but they don’t! And this was the purpose of this topic.”
Agreed (except for hte “but they dont” part, I simply dont know), though that is not what you had said at first, nor is it how it was understood by anybody here.
Health
“I knew it in my mind,”
How did you know it before you researched it?
“The only thing I admitted was I used the word “only” and it was an exaggeration, but the rest was factual.”
nope you also admitted that there isn’t actually a difference (i.e. in practice, which is what this thread first was about (or at least seemed to be)), but rather you believe there should be.
(you also severely limited your case to late at night when there is no traffic, these limitations were not in the OP)
There is no “rest”.
Health
“”a glaring factual error or a illogical argument”?!?”
Your entire post! From the get go. You started with a given that there was a difference between different crashes that we should all research
(note I didnt comment yet, since there was nothing illogical yet)
you then said “In any car crash, even though there’s the possibility of a medical cause, it’s Not probable!But in 1 car crash, it has to be treated as a medical call, along with trauma.”
This is when I first commented.
This is both factually incorrect and illogical.
You subsequently addmited to the factually incorrect part in that it isnt actually any protocol but rather your suggestion (though at the time you did not indicate this at all).
since then pretty much every stamentyouve made in this thread was either factually incorrect, illogical or both!
Including your last post! “Of course I had it in my mind before I started this topic. But I never figured s/o would grill me on it!”
Is this logical to you? you make a statement, bully people who ask for response and you havent even researched it yourself in other words you werent sure it was correct?
Health
Lol I did from copyright.gov website
“Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed.”
Facts and ideas cant be copyrighted.
and as mentioned before, citing an excerpt isnt a copyright violation anyway.
“Look you conned me to research it myself, but I had posted on the first page s/o else should do it!”
Ok, youve lost me. This whole thread began on your theory that there should be a difference based on how many cars were involved (of course this isnt exactly how it began, but shifted that way)
Do you mean to say at the time you posted this thread, you hadnt even researche dit yet, and were “conned” into researching your own theory after my prodding?
“It wasn’t my responsibility to teach anything to EMS or Hatzolah.”
That is certainly true. Nobody asked you to open this thread. IT was all you. I guess out of the goodness of your heart.
“Why are you interested in this topic anyway?”
As I mentioned I find it fascinating when people can be shown to be wrong plainly and simply and still insit they are right.
For the most part, those are the threads I’m drawn to. Whether it is logicaly wrong or factually wrong. (I thought I said this before, in fact I beleive you stole my answer and submited it as your own)
“Do you just look for topics to find problems?”
No, but if i note a glaring factual error or illogical argument I often point it out.
” Do you attribute these problems because it’s a Yeshiva site?!?”
No, I’m not sure what that means.
Health
I’m so confused.
Why is it a problem with copyright? You do know that quoting an excerpt from a book is not a copyright violation (furthermore I doubt the material can even be copyrighted)
At any rate,
Does it mention a difference based on the number of cars/vehicles involved?
I usually try to avoid these discussions on YWN since it just becomes a game of who can find sources to back up their side.
KJ
you asked “But what motivated them to go to war?”
But let us read the words of the RAMBAM, of blessed memory, on this subject:
???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????. ????? ??? ?????? ????????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????. ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???
The Ramabam isnt giving a history lesson. He clearly outlines as part of the reason for the revolt The fact that The yevanim took our money, women and oppressed them in addition to prevting mitzvos.
As part of the nes Hashem that we commemorate is the fact that “sovereignty returned to Yisroel for more than 200 years”
I’m surprised it wasnt closed.
Though see no real reason it should be.
“it ha long since ceased to be about anything important,”
News flash: 99% of topics discussed in coffee room arent importnant
” and is just about proving health wrong,”
why is that a bad thing?
” and he’s admitted it, so fini.”
He sort of admited, so thats good enough for me. I’m hoping it’ll peter out. Though as mentioned I have trouble letting things go so if Health replies to me it will be hard to let it go.
Wolf
this is from “true Torah Jews”
I beleive “Torah-true” is trademarked by the Agudah
2scents
I was the first who mentioned Narcan. I used it as a question to Health when he was still insisting that there was a difference in managment based on the number of cars involved.
I assked if the driver was found with pinpoint pupils and respiratory depression whether narcan should only be given if one car was involved?
(His response “If there was AMS you’d give narcan with one vehicle, even if the pt. had normal breathing and normal pupils!”)
Now I readily admit I dont know much Emergency medicine and even less about EMS protocols. But Wouldnt they give Narcan in that case?
Health
“When I said “only”, it wasn’t 100% accurate”
Kudos! that took a while but congrats on admiting your error. (Though a bit understated)
“Starting to think that the only purpose that you post on YWN is to knock down Frum people!”
wha? what does this have to do with frum people? I wasnt even aware you were frum! in past discussions I was under the impression that you werent (yet)!
“I don’t think that you know anything about medicine.”
More lies! heres what you said earlier “It sounds like you’re in the medical field ” (not really a lie you are of course free to change your mind)
what changed your mind?
The book-that-must-not-be-named that you keep citing is irrelevant. I am not doubting nor have I doubted that there are medical causes for trauma.
I took the liberty of gathering up all the lies youve told in this thread. (OK I’m lying it isnt ALL the lies, it is most).
Now to be fair, Ive included staments thta contradict each other even though only one may actually be a lie.
Please let me know which quote youd like me to demonstarte why it is a lie (though many I have done so already)
Also please note I havent included simple direct questions that you ahve ignored, since while dishonest isnt quite the same as lying.
Here we go:
“It’s a question to refresh people’s memories – how do you treat a patient from a 1 car accident? “
“Now s/o is getting warmer! But you’re wrong. It is different than
a multi-car crash! “
“Ah, but there is a difference! Nothing to do with a MCI. This was the purpose of this thread.”
“Go research it & then come back and let us know what you found out”
“Look there is a difference in the assessment between a 1 car accident and a multi- car crash.”
“Go research it! “
“There is a difference. I’m not Mechuav to teach you medicine. I was nice enough to get you started”
“Look there is a difference in the assessment between a 1 car accident and a multi- car crash”
“The point I was making is that you evaluate for both medical & trauma at the same time. This is only for a single car accident. “
“But let’s say the pt. is unconscious, in a single car situation – you’d follow the AMS protocol, but not with a multi-car crash!”
“If there was AMS you’d give narcan with one vehicle, even if the pt. had normal breathing and normal pupils!”
“I’m not surprised. Anything liberal with Israel or life – you go for!”
“I already dealt with this -“Trauma – Are there medical causes? (e.g. diabetes, CVA, MI, etc.)””
“I can’t tell you – Copy infringement.”
“The fact is – no one does! “
“I didn’t make this up “
“The only things that I ever put in exclamation marks was something quoted from elsewhere or that me or others have already posted on YWN! “
“This is true.” (In response to “the idea that a medical cuase is more likely when one car is involved,”)
” True!” (In response to:”THAT is what we are discussing you said MULTIPLE TIMES that there is a difference between 1 car and multiple cars.”)
“What you don’t understand or want to understand is that there should be no difference in treatment. “
“I was pointing out that at least it should be treated as such when it’s a single MVA!”
“And for the umpteen time,…”
” …all trauma calls have to be evaluated as if the’re a medical issue also!!!”
“You’re the one who’s dishonest!”
“Stop with the lying! I never pretended that this was protocol!”
“And I still say that!” (in response to “”! you outright said (several times) that there IS a difference between the two.”)
“I already posted to Ubiq the difference:”
“Do you know the purpose of this thread? It wasn’t to tell e/o that they should check for medical causes at every trauma, because that’s what the book says. It was to deal with the reality that they don’t. So I suggested at least check for medical causes at a single MVA.”
“The word THREAD over there meant something else.
In other words there are at least 2 threads here!”
“What I quoted from Avram was after I quoted from IIHS:
This what I meant by “research it”!”
“But your whole goal is to put me down, so you ignored that posts that I’ve posted a few times! “
“It’s apparent from his & your posting that he & you will never retract,”
“So I theorized at least they should do it at single MVA’S.”
If youre not sure why any of them is a lie, Id be more than happy to explain it to you. Of course if I cant I’d be happy to admit my mistake
Health
I dont follow.
Are you saying I was shown to be wrong? where and how
Is this another lie of yours
“Ubiq -“you really think Ubiq will admit that he was incorrect?””
You do know that was YOUR question, are you answering your own question and pretending it was attributed to me?
(It is also plagirism since you didnt attribute my post (typos and all to me or even use quotes)
I dont think you have a single honest post on this thread
“So I theorized at least they should do it at single MVA’S.”
Lie! you theroized they should ONLY do it at single MVA’s
see here “But let’s say the pt. is unconscious, in a single car situation – you’d follow the AMS protocol, but not with a multi-car crash!”
“The point I was making is that you evaluate for both medical & trauma at the same time. This is only for a single car accident.”
Can you admit those two staments are poorly worded and in stead of “only” and “but not with” should have said “at least ” or “especialy” and “is less important with”
(Of course you still dont have a source for that but that is a side issue at this point)
Health
Im sorry I dont follow
you said there is a difference between one car and multiple cars. and that 2scents should research it
where should he have gone to research it.
What you quoted from IHSS is entirely irrelvant to the subject at hand as I have replied to you several times.
” so you ignored that posts that I’ve posted a few times!”
Are you for real?
see here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/treatment/page/3#post-590297 (the very next post after you first posted it!)
and here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/treatment/page/3#post-590505
“you really think Ubiq will admit that he was incorrect?”
When incorrect, even if there is room for disagreement I admit see here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/treatment/page/3#post-590297
This has absolutely nothing to do with any degree in medicine I may have. As mentioned earlier, I know close to nothing about the EMS protocols nor the managment of trauma victims.
That being said I am always eager to learn more. And since you began with an interesting question regarding a difference in managment based on the number of cars involved, I followed thethread., though only as an observer since I didnt have what to add.
I only got involved once it became apparent that you are a fraud.
my continued interest is perhaps a morbid one to see what sort of pretzels (new definitions of thread was particularly cute) you twist your words into to avoid a simple apology along the lines of I’m sorry for being rude when I actually made all this up.
In fact almost every post of yours has a lie in it. some more minor than others can you admit any of them were untrue?
Eg in your most recent post “so you ignored that posts that I’ve posted a few times!” As Ive demonstrated above I did NOT ignore your post regarding IIHS.
2scents
“you really think Mr Health will admit that he was incorrect?”
I dont. But I find it fascinating when a person can be shown to be wrong in black and white using his own words agaisnt him. over and over and over (and on several different points) and still inist he is right.
It truly amazes me. Discussions thta are merely a difference of opininon dont interest me as much, since we can agree to disagree.
“What should we be extra careful about, on Chanuka?”
To keep kids away from the MEnora when li, and not to leave them unattended
” I’ve heard that Chanuka is a very special time and so we should daven etc…”
Of course!
“Anything extra special to do on Chanuka?”
Yes! light the menora every day and say hallel, add al hanisim to bentching and davening.
“Also, has anyone heard of looking directly at the flames for the full half hour and what positive effect it has? “
Nope
Health
“Do you know the purpose of this thread?”
Yes you said it pretty early
“Ah, but there is a difference! [between number of cars involved] Nothing to do with a MCI. This was the purpose of this thread.”
Youve repeated it several times:
“”The point I was making is that you evaluate for both medical & trauma at the same time. This is only for a single car accident””
These are YOUR quotes.
You were not “dealing with the reality that they dont” at least that isnt what you said.
You also said that it was something that could be “researched” i.e. that it wasnt your own chiddush – turns out that too is a lie
“Go research it & then come back and let us know what you found out.”
“When are you gonna Man up & admit that you’re Wrong?!?”
About which part was I wrong?
If I’m wrong I admit it see here:
“fair enough. I misspoke, that isnt quite what you said. My apologies for that.” (though it was in fact what you said, I grant that it wasnt what you meant. ( regarding this: “”MORE TO THE POINT only needs to be considered with one car and not with multiple cars.”
I never said that – you’re lying!”, here is where you said it “”But let’s say the pt. is unconscious, in a single car situation – you’d follow the AMS protocol, but not with a multi-car crash!””)
Lol Health
“Here from Avram -“research what? and where””
If that is what you now claim you meant when you told 2scents to “research it” i.e. that he should look up an anonymous poster’s theory, not based on any real facts or data that was posted AFTER you insisted (twice) that this distinction was one that can be researched.
Well, I guess that is the closest youll get to manning up and admitting you were wrong and dishonest. But I’ll take it
Goldilocks they were!
Thats why they quickly sold him to the midyanim who in turn sold him to Potiphar
Health
you posted that “difference” and i replied how it isnt relevent to the subject at hand.
How on earth does the fact that more deaths from single MVA’s prove that a medical issue is the most likely cause?
Maybe more accidents occur with one car, maybe with multiple cars there are more poeple available so odds are one of them may remain concious enough to call for help, There are several other possibilities.
How doe sit show that medical casues need to be considred more with one car . THAT is the subject at hand.
Feivel
I know but I have a problem with letting things go. and I find it fascinating when people can be so wrong yet wont admit it. (this is my draw to arguments over things like vaccines where people can be proven wrong yet remain in denial)
Health
“I never said which “health professionals”!”
fair enough though the implication was all.
“You’re the one who’s dishonest”
Care to elaborate?
“Stop with the lying! I never pretended that this was protocol!”
Everybody understood it that way.
and what did you mean by this “Ah, but there is a difference! Nothing to do with a MCI. This was the purpose of this thread.
Go research it & then come back and let us know what you found out.”
research what? and where?
“This I believe!”
Lol! then you know less about medicine than I thought
“And I still say that!”
How so
and for the dozens time why and what is your source? if you have no source just say so. and apolagize to 2scents for demanding he research something you made up.
“Stop with your lying! I already said it on page 2 and I quote -“Trauma – Are there medical causes? (e.g. diabetes, CVA, MI, etc.)” “
You pretended that that source spoke about a difference between numbe rof cars. It seems that in addition to making up the fact at first you made up a source.
I am not nor have I ever denied that medical causes are an important consideration when evaluating trauma victims. This is regardless of numbe rof acrs involved
I wasnt making any point (at least I dint mean to)
I was sharing a humorous piece of satire that all can find funny (even if disagreeing with the practical application)
The second half which is a conversation with a chiloni parent is (in my opinion) even funnier and more biting than the first
Health
“What you don’t understand or want to understand is that there should be no difference in treatment.”
What?
“You claim that you’re into internal medicine. This post was for s/o in emergency medicine.”
More change! This is how YOU opened : “For the health professionals on YWN – “
“I really think that you have an agenda? What is it?”
to expose your dishonesty. You posed a question were condescending when people asked for the answer and it turns out you made it up.
“The fact is no one that I’ve seen or know about follows this as medical call.”
so why did you pretned this was the protocol?
“I was pointing out that at least it should be treated as such when it’s a single MVA!”
you were not! you outright said (several times) that there IS a difference between the two., and people who didnt know it werent doing enpough research.
“You definitely have an agenda, probably just to put me down!”
Partly that, plus honesty. A simple “im sorry I wasnt clear and I’m sorry 2scents for being condescending when I told you to reserch something that doesnt yet exist on paper”
“I don’t think you care about pts, so why are you in the medical field?!?”
Its for the big bucks and lavish lifestyle!
“And for the umpteen time, all trauma calls have to be evaluated as if the’re a medical issue also!!! “
This is the FIRST time youve said this. So there is no difference in mangament between the two?
So for example This quote “”But you’re wrong. It is different than a multi-car crash!”” of yours is wrong?
This was going around a few years ago
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CA
they pointed at him down in the pit, And said look how tough he is even the snakes and scorpions are afraid of him
Wolf
I wasnt there.
But I assumed he wasnt there either. IT seems awkward to sell him with him standing right there. they sold him while still in the pit then pulled him out and handed him over.
And as I said I’m not telling you it is a gimatriya
PS are you really arguing over this?
You do know Im kidding right?
I am not arguing with ravshalom above
Just rewording it since it is not quite accurate. (though in practice the outcome is the same).
For counting the days of the tekufa we dont count “meis leis” and even if davening maariv before 1440 hours (60 x 24) after the tekufa, vesein tal umatar is still recited
“Therefore, 60 days from the tekufa is always December 4th, at either 3:00 am, 9:00 am, 3:00 pm, or 9:00 pm, respectively. But since the Jewish day starts in the evening, December 4th at 9:00 pm is considered the following day, December 5th.”
For counting Sixty days the time doesnt matter. 60 days after October 7th is December 5th regardless of what time the Tekufa took place. Thus on most years at the start of “halachic Dec 5th” i.e. after sunset on Dec 4th we start saying vesein tal umatar on day # 60.
EXCEPT that the year before a leap year (is civil years 2011,2015, 2019) when the tekufa is on OCtober 7th at 9:00 PM this is “halachic October 8th” So the tekufa does not occur on October 7th in those years, halachicly it is October 8th (though your calendar still says October 7th for 3 more hours). Sixty days after October 8th is December 6th, after sunset on Dec 5th (even before 9:00 PM) we say vesein tal umatar.
(interestingly, Once in 28 years evening of December 5th is Friday night the year before a leap year and we satrt saying it on the 6th)
Wolf
Nope it is a befreish Gimatriya!
see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/parashat-vayeshev#post-590341
Healt
good luck in your quest.
howevet that is NOT what you said at first. And is NOT what you said when challenged initally:
From the OP “how do you treat a patient from a 1 car accident? “
Note: as opposed to a 2 car accident, and you imply this is currently the standard. You were clearly not asking what should the new protocol be according to my chidush that I have no data for
“It’s a question to refresh people’s memories – how do you treat a patient from a 1 car accident?”
Same implication but stronger. how cna you refresh memoried about your own chidush that you havent shared yet?
“But you’re wrong. It is different than a multi-car crash!”
you meant you believe it should be treated different
“Ah, but there is a difference! Nothing to do with a MCI. This was the purpose of this thread.
Go research it & then come back and let us know what you found out.”
again how can he research a chidush that only exists in your head?
“Look there is a difference in the assessment between a 1 car accident and a multi- car crash. And I thought you were getting close. Go research it!”
ditto
“There is a difference. I’m not Mechuav to teach you medicine. I was nice enough to get you started. If you show me that you’re trying, I’ll help you out. Even if I don’t get any money from you!”
!?!?!?
“That’s not what I want. Look there is a difference in the assessment between a 1 car accident and a multi- car crash. How do you assess a pt. who’s a victim with no other cars around?”
“In any car crash, even though there’s the possibility of a medical cause, it’s Not probable! But in 1 car crash, it has to be treated as a medical call, along with trauma.”
No mention that this is your own chiddush
“The point I was making is that you evaluate for both medical & trauma at the same time. This is only for a single car accident”
Strongly Implying that with a multiple car accident you dont need to evaluate for medical and trauma(you said I was lying when I pointed this out)
“But let’s say the pt. is unconscious, in a single car situation – you’d follow the AMS protocol, but not with a multi-car crash!”
Same strong implication as above (actually I dont think this is an implication in this quote you outright said it)
“Look I have an EMS book that states -“Trauma – Are there medical causes? (e.g. diabetes, CVA, MI, etc.)””
That wasnt the discussion
Finnaly after a lot of back and forth (in reply to “” is this [ie distinguishing between number of cars] your own chiddush?:)
“My own.” ie you made it up
Then you changed your mind
here “I didn’t make this up”
and bizarrely asserted what you said you made up as fact
“”the idea that a medical cause is more likely when one car is involved,” – This is true.”
and ended with
“I’m not trying to change the protocol that EMS shouldn’t seek for medical causes at every trauma, but I’m trying to find a solution that can be feasible! The reality is that they don’t seek for medical causes at every trauma.”
that is NOt what you opened with at all!
Joseph
didnt say damaged he said “touched” Of course
Yes I am allowed to touch your fence
Of course if you damage the bumper or fence you have to pay .I dont think Joseph is arguing that point
Because 112 – 103 = 9 which is the numbe rof shevatim present at Yosef’s mechira
Health
“This quote I did Not make up -“Trauma – Are there medical causes? (e.g. diabetes, CVA, MI, etc.)””
I never claimed you did, nor did I say anything different than that quote
“”MORE TO THE POINT only needs to be considered with one car and not with multiple cars.”
I never said that – you’re lying!”
fair enough. I misspoke, that isnt quite what you said. My apologies for that.
“”the idea that a medical cause is more likely when one car is involved,”
This is true.”
Though you admit it is your chidush and not currently in any EMS book,guideline or protocol.
Correct?
I’m not sure what your statistic is supposed to show? That single MVA’s are more common? That isnt what we are discussing.
the discussion is whether the EMS DOES (this is how it was first presented) or should (it kind of shifted to this) take a different approach with regard to managment, based on the number of cars involved
Health
“I didn’t make this up “
um you did.
This wasnt about medical causes leading to trauma.
This was about a difference between managing 1 vs multiple car accidents.
see this quote of yours
“”But you’re wrong. It is different than
a multi-car crash!””
or this one
“Ah, but there is a difference! Nothing to do with a MCI. This was the purpose of this thread.
Go research it & then come back and let us know what you found out.””
THAT is what we are discussing you said MULTIPLE TIMES that there is a difference between 1 car and multiple cars.
You claimed you read this in a book but cannot supply name of the book.
You finnaly admited when asked
“”Is this what the book said (what book?) or is this your own chiddush? “
That it is in fact:
“My own. “
In other words like many here suspected, the idea that a medical cuase is more likely when one car is involved, and MORE TO THE POINT only needs to be considered with one car and not with multiple cars. Or that – and i quote- “It is different than
a multi-car crash!” (with an exclamation supplied by you btw) is something that you made up.
I am confused. Wnow you say it is in the book-that-must not be named?
“Did you ever look in an EMS book?!?”
no but I always like learning new things. Please tell me which book mentions the distiction between number of cars involved in an accident.
Do you know of one whose “copy infringment” doesnt prevent you from repeating the book’s title?
Lol health
I dont think you know what copy infringment is but at any rate. thanks for admitting that you made this all up.
Nobody was doubting that there can and often are medical causes that can lead to an MVA and should be considered.
The discussion was over this:
“But you’re wrong. It is different than
a multi-car crash!”
and this:
“2scents -“There is no difference in treating a pt that was involved in a one car accident vs a multi car accident, unless it becomes an MCI”
Ah, but there is a difference! Nothing to do with a MCI. This was the purpose of this thread.
Go research it & then come back and let us know what you found out.”
Kudos for admiting that it was your own chidush, though I’m not sure why it took you so long to admit that, and I’m not sure how you expected 2scents to research a factoid that only exists in your mind.
Health
what book is that in? (for the third time)
to the crux of the issue:
“”There isn’t time to do it at every MVA, but it’s imperative at least to do it at a 1 car MVA!” “
Is this what the book said (what book?) or is this your own chiddush? (for the fifth time)
Health
You didnt answer my questions:
“Look I have an EMS book that states -“Trauma – Are there medical causes? (e.g. diabetes, CVA, MI, etc.)”
Thanks, thats all I wanted to know. Though name of book please? (a google search only reveals this thread)
“I asked about your degree. What area of medicine are you in? “
Internal medicine. you?
I also liked Feivels question namely the only tjhing we are discussing is a difference in treatment between 1 vs mutliple cars. Not that diabetes, cva etc are causes of trauma.
akuperma
all that is good and well. I was replying to the op’s blanket statement
“I think it’s best frum people stay away from politics. They never can just cater to other frum and the temptations of power can lead to all sorts of negative things. “
(as well as Joseph “Pirkei Avos had something to say on this topic. “)
That there is nothing wrong and it is in fact useful to have frum people in politics (at least on a local level) and I brought an example.
Health
“Anything liberal with Israel or life “
Aderaba! my views on ISrael are quite conservative. And I am not liberal with life at all. Also I’m not sure how not difirentiating betwen the number of cars in an accident as far as treatment goes is being “liberal with life”
No I dont know emergency medicine at all (nor do I pretend to ahem ahem).
“Look I have an EMS book that states -“Trauma – Are there medical causes? (e.g. diabetes, CVA, MI, etc.)”
Thanks, thats all I wanted to know. Though name of book please? (a google search only reveals this thread)
“I asked about your degree. What area of medicine are you in? “
Internal medicine. you?
akuperma
I highly doubt it. why do you ask?
I agree with you on a broad level. BUt having frum politicians on a local level can be and has been useful.
R’ Meir Shapiro z”l served in the Sejm (polish Parliment)
Health
“Are you involved in EMS?”
nope (you aksed that already)
” Whether is with a “h”.””
Thanks though you mean “an h” (2 can play that game).
Thanks for your reply. Very interesting. However I’m inclined to go with PBA (first time!) It think even if what you say is true it is more of a cute factoid than part of any medical algorithm.
Does any EMS actually follow this? Or do you just believe they should?
Is this written anywhere?