ubiquitin

UJM
“Is this YU group trying to help homosexuals STOP ENGAGING IN HOMOSEXUALITY?

YES OR NO?”
That’s like asking did you stop hitting your wife yes or No. I don’t know the teiyereh yidden who will join the club I am required to give them the benefit of doubt and assume that although they have this YH they have never chas veshalom acted upon it.
OF course if any R’Chl has then the answer to your question is a resounding YES (al caps)
as the letter says “we have been working to formulate a Torah framework to provide our LGBTQ students with an enhanced support system that continues to facilitate their religious growth and personal life journeys.”

Avira

“nice try in attempting to evade your moral relativism when it’s clearly pointed out.”

what do you mean try? I am evading it . It has no bearing on this thread. You are trying to slip it in to pontificate, I’m not taking the bait.

“You then attempted to say that Rav Moshe’s Torah is relative to how goyim in his time viewed toevos”
Again no attempt. I quoted R’ Moshe as supplied by UJM VERBATIM. I didn’t add a word . Perhaps you disagree with R’ Moshe. I have no problem with that , though I am not sure why you would. Perhaps you disagree with the translation you’d have to point out where but ok thats fine.

“Again, how would you feel if YU made a support group for people who are attracted to children? Do you think a yeshiva is a place for that?”

I’m surprised this is controversial.
If there was a need I’d feel terrible if they DIDN’T create such a group
It sounds dangerous not to!

“You took one line and wrenched it out pf context.”

Um no I quoted almost a fifth of UJM’s post

“or would you bemoan the fact that the world had changed so drastically from what the Torah wants even for goyim?”

why is it either or? why can’t it be both?
We bemoan the fact the the world is getting more depraved while helping and supporting those who have this struggle

You deal with the reality at hand.
Once upon a time Yeshivas did not appreciate the severity of child abuse.
If we dug up a letter from an adom gadol written > 50 years ago in which he ” simply did not understand the far reaching psychological impact of abuse. … [and he felt thatl] disrupting major mosdos over it seemed like overkill.” Would that be relevent TODAY * ? I’m guessing you would say it isnt (please corrct me if I’m wrong)

I’m surprised this is controversial
Once upon a time the trauma of abuse wasn’t fully appreicated; today it is
Once upon a time hitting was deemed proper chinuch; today most mechanchim/gedolim say it is not for our dor
Once upon a time this was “abomination that the whole world despises.”; today it isnt
Yes obviosuly the aveirah didnt change. and I never suggested nor impied otherwise.
But our approach to those dealing with this YH can change

* I’m not asking about the view of him then

Avira

“Rabbeim have been helping people like this for decades; it’s nothing new.”

Yes! Nailed it! shalom al yisroel

“doesn’t mean that we disregard Rav Moshe”

Obviously.
Though I don’t understand what R Moshe has to do with this thread

“and this one is “acceptable” solely because the goyishe world sees it that way”

I don’t know what this means. YH is YH . If you have aa yetzer Harahan you deal with it. The gemara gives advice for a person who has a yetzer Harahan for murder. That does t mean it’s “acceptable ” but if that’s your struggle, hey become a shichst. Don’t pretend it does t exist.

Ujm
“Are you implicitly saying that Rav Moshe’s attitude and perspective on this issue expressed in the referenced teshuva is no longer acceptable in today’s day and age?”

And if I am?
Things change. Attitudes change circumstances change. Smoking was once allowed on Yom tov, many poskim say today ot is assur as it is no l9nger shava lchol mefesh. R Wolbe and R Shteyman both Saud hitting children is wring form of chinuch. Does that mean they ate implicitly saying previous approach is no longer acceptable? Things change approaches change. R Aron Feldman is familiar with R Moshe he takes a different approach.
Sure you can accuse him of lying (!!!) because it doesn’t got your narrative. Though that makes me sad for the abject spiritual poverty in the fabric-wearing community who don’t trust our gedolim

Avira
“that’s a normal yatzer hora, and it’s something every jew faces,”
speak for yourself, just because you struggle doesnt mean all do.

And what a strange claim, so the struggles you have are real struggles that warrant organizations and support. but other people who struggle aren’t entitled to support?

What a gross perspective,. Nay, an abomination!

“still didn’t look up the DG”M, don’t know if he says this or another sevara”

main reason is its a psik resihe on a D’rabanon especially since its K’lachar yad and mikalkel

vut removing the letters wouldnt help

There are 2 seperate melachos

Koreah/tearing
Mechika/erasing

Koreah has nothing to do with letters. Removing letters wouldnt remove koreah. If Koreah is a problem that is regardlesss of whther letters are present or not.
(As always correct me if I’m wrong)

The OP’s puzzlement is over the words that are torn. “full of words, everywhere,” this has nothing to do with koreah

“The go-to shabbos poskim, like shemiras shabbos kehilchasa, rabbi ribiat, rabbi simcha bunim ohen”
ITs a bit odd to dismiss the Nodeh Beyehudah (brought in MB) becasue the “go-to shabbos poskim” dont bring it though some do in footnotes, I havent checked which) . And it isn’t just mekalkel it is also psik reisha dlo nicha lei on a d’Rabanan.
Though without question the general minhag is to be machmir And I am not saying to change that.

I agree with the OP It is weird that hemishe companies don;t make it easier. (my last line in first comment was meant tongue in cheek)

Presumably they rely on the Dagul Mervava who argues on the Rema 340:3 and says it is muttar.

He concludes המחמיר יחמיר לעצמו ולא לאחרים. So even if the manufacturers themselves are machmir like the Rema, that is for their candies not yours

Yes

I retract my original comment
the Story surfaced, and while many of the orignial WhatsApp forwards were exaggerated the gist is right

CS

Here to answer all your questions ! !!!

Troll or not troll? – not troll

Kokosh with hot coffee or cold milk? – under age 16 milk over 16 coffee. Age 16 itself mix the two

Woodburne or Fallsburg? – Woodburne

Tums or Exlax on Motza? – Tums

what is the minhag of eating pizza on Motza? – Pizza is round like the moon but as slices are removed it gets smaller until a new pie is brought out, this reminds us of Kidush levana whcih there is minhag to do Motzoei Shabbos

or a half baked slice on Motza Peasch? – Since it isnt fully baked it can still rise to contrast with Matzah

What is the minhag of having a sushi platter at a vort? – Suchi is lashon of Sos osis which was the Haftorha for chasanim

What is the minhag of Horseradish with Geflite fish? – so that we cry thinking of the Liviyason’s mate that was killed

What is the minhag of yelling out Kohaleh during laining? – I give the answer in the thread you linked to

What is the minhag of serving Kichelech along side of the herring at the kiddush? – When eating on Shabbos we should progress through brias haolam Herring was day 5 (fish) kichel is day 3 (plant) it is improper to skip staright to day 5 so we have day 3 with it

What is the minhag of flushing twice using public toilets? – you answred this one

Avira
“They learn yiddish no differently than public school kids learn English.”

Please don’t lie.
Satmar doesnt have Yiddish grammar/vocabulary classes ( I wasn’t referring to literature) . definitely not past kitah beis. Public schools do (English not Yiddish).
You maintain they don’t need to, and they are doing just fine. “that’s not the focus of chasidishe chinuch.”
B’seder that’s fair .
In fact I essentially said that in the last paragraph (“It’s a bit weird…”) .

*

(Thsi is a side point to a pending post, it is important point I’d like to make though I dont want it to distract from that nice summary so I’m posting it here (plus to make it easier for the mods)

In my pending post I wrote “On the other hands Students that are fluent in English* can handle Regents like Darchei produces are “to a great or significant extent” similar to Public school even if they have never played an instrument .”

A point that often gets made is that so what if they are not fluent in English they are fluent in Yiddish .We don’t give a hard time to people who, say speak Spanish. Why doesnt Yiddish count .
(leaving aside the fact that to the best of my knowledge NO school and few if any parents teach kids only Spanish, and not want the kids to speak English)

It isnt really true. Kids don’t really learn yiddish. In mys chool yiddish was taught only until 2nd grade. From then on it is learnt by osmosi, and whatever comes up in learning. Now, it is not a big deal that I did not know that Yiddish like LAshon Kodesh has masculine/feminine nouns, I grant that isn’t important. The problem though is things that don;lt coem up in leanring they have zero/no knowledge about .

As you know I am a physiscan. I speak yiddish so I get a lot of Yiddish-speaking patients. Like any New York physycian I get a lot of spanish speaking patients too.

The Yiddish speakers have no idea about basic functions of the human body. I try to explain that a patient has kidney failure. Many of them don;t know what “niren” are (unless they learnt Zevachim sure in Chumash you translate “kelayos” as “niren” but what ARE they) I try explaining what diabetes is and elevated sugar which can lead to kidney failure/dialysis. but they just dont have the vocabulary for it, not in Yiddish and not in English.
with my Spanish patients, I use an interpreter line, and we can have a meaningful conversation.

I grant this is a side issue since Its a bit weird to say that you need English education in Elementary school, in case a person gets kidney failure down the line R”l . And USUALLY if I spend enough time they get it (not always). But this is but one example, and yes there are health networks and Liasons to help guide through the medical world. Presumably the lega lworld too.
So I dont expect you to find this a convincing argument, but it is a point worth making

“According to your verbatim quotation, you are asserting that the new regulations are basically saying that as long as the private school gives the Regents, even if 100% of the students fail the exam, the school has proven public school equivalency and they’re okay, correct? Because the regulation you quoted only says they have to give it.”

you’d have to ask a lawyer .
Though i guess the oard of regents would require a certain pass rate to remain registered.
But that is just a guess

“This response of yours is saying you believe that the Yeshivas should be forced to teach sex education.”
1) wouldn’t be so bad
2) I double checked the New regulations “sex education” dos not appear anywhere. If it does and I missed it please please share where.
As you know I love learning new things

“If you noticed over the years, I’ll almost never reprimand anyone for poor English.”
good because you switched from past tense to future tense in that sentence alone .
At least I think so, but again poor education

“It clearly indicates substantially everything taught in public schools is included in the law requiring equivalency in private schools”
you keep saying this. where are you getting this from. Can you cite any line of law, interpretation even a lay source that says this
“substantially” means “to a great or significant extent.” It essentially means NOT the same.
And again. so why aren’t we celebrating the new regulations, hope they get accepted. since they remove any ambiguity. and most yeshivas are already compliant ? and they are so much less restrictive than tha which is currently “required” by law (according to you)

“Are you saying that you don’t care if the government drops this whole issue and continues to let Yeshivas give 90 minutes of math and low-level English, and nothing else? ”

I don’t love Government involvement in chinuch. It could only lead to bad things.

“If so, what points are you trying to make in your various comments on this issue?

It shifted over the course of the three pages
But in a nutshell. Pointing out that the complaints is coming from Those who were within the system who are upset that they were “shortchanged” (in their view) and that they have a point.

I initially pointed this out to Besalel who missed the main point of the story. and then to eiddeee who completely missed thsi point

ujm

“Good grief, ubiq. Your reading comprehension, indeed, is poor. Is that why you blame “The Yeshivas” for your subpar understanding?”

yes

“Taking the Regents exams will prove equivalency is the subject of the Regent exam.”
you made up this interpretation.
I quoted it verbatim
No need to add words are peshatim to it. The other paths include military school, school for the deaf You dont need to form a military school for the deaf to prove equivalancy.
Lest someone womehow think thy do. It EXPLICTLY states “will be able to demonstrate their substantial equivalency of instruction through one of the following pathways”
Just need one.
period
You’ll have to quote the line that led you to this mistaken interpretation.

“Currently there ARE NO REGULATIONS defining how a school can prove equivalency. ”
Earlier you said the opposite, “full public school equivalency. ” including ” math, English, science, music, arts or sex education”
you were wrong.
Thank you for correcting the record

“If you argue they must teach math, you’ll also have to concede that they must teach music and sex education, just as they do in public school.”
sounds confusing. If you are right, hopefully these new regulations are accepted then

” to avoid being hypocritical you’ll need to drop your objection to Satmar not teaching science or English”

i’m not objecting to Satmar.
I dont care what they do* (perhaps I need to do teshuva for this attitude) . Some parents and former students do. I could care less.

*Except that it affects us as it almost did in 2019 but now that that is over I don’t care.

And for the record If your rewritten paragraph was correct (it’s not) I’m not sure what it adds or changes

eddie
“First of all I am NOT advocating breaking the law. I all my comments are in a scenario that there is no law.”

Then your comments are in the wrong thread

“Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with upholding the law. It is about using the law to get what they want.”

I don’t know what this means.
The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math/English. Satmar does not. Therefore Satmar is violating the law. You cant blame parents for wanting their school to educate their cildren as required by law.
Arguing that Satmar has the right to not educate the children, is arguing that they dont have to follow the law.
I’m not sure why this is complicated.
Of course it has nothing to do with some virtuos “upholding of the law” I specifically said so.
you can argue that, I have no problem with that. Satmar is against education they want to prevent kids from getting education I completely get that. But be clear with what you are defending .

“the same with a school. You may have a legal right to register a complaint, I won’t venture an opinion on the Halachic right to report to the govt as I am not a halachic authority, but in my opinion,given the options in schooling, no moral right.”

would you say the same for suing a school that refuses to install a ramp/elevator for a child in a wheelchair? (Like you setting aside very real halachic concerns, or “suing” in beis din) does a parent have a moral right to demand their child get access to school or should they just choose another school?

UJM
Halevai

ujm

“You simply assert Satmar parents can’t sent their children to Chasan Sofer, Vien, etc without explaining why they cannot”

sorry, I thought I did with my shidusich refrence
I’ll elaborate
It is the equivelent of a Lakewood famiily sending their kid to Ramaz. Ok thats probably downplaying it a bit, since in Satmar’s view the disticntion between Satmar and Chasan Sofer is far far gretaer than Lakewood’s view of the distinction between Lakewood and Ramaz.
Their family would be the one with the kid who is off, not really one of us, somethign is wrong. etc etc

“you think that would shut up most of the critics?”
I dont care about “most of the cirtics”

Eiddee
” A parent is not entitled to have a particular school change it’s educational philosophy to accommodate them. ”

Why on earth not? If the law is on their side OF course they do. To be clear The school of course has a right o fght back .
Say a School had an edcuational philosophy that cochlear implants look weird and give the principal the creeps so no children with them can come Would it be wrong for parents to sue? I don’t think anybody would agree with that.
Schools don’t just have carte blanche to do wha tthey please (especially if they take govt funds, regardless if the parents pay taxes too) There are laws that schools need to follow. Included in that law is not discriminating against disabled. Also included in the law is providing a basic education.

“At that point the school has a right to do what they wish with that information. ”
Of course I’m not sure what you mean. Schools have rights parents have rights . Both are true
PArents have a right to complain Schools have a right to act on or ignore those complaints. IF the two rights are in conflict then it is the courts role to weigh in .

I am certainly not advocating breaking the law, ”
You literally are period. Full stop. . Nobody claims The schools were following the law. They weren’t saying that is their right, or that they are succesful in other ways are all advocating breakign the law* you say ” but I do believe this law is unfair, unrealistic, and subject to abuse. ” Ok thats fair, guess what ? There is an avenue for that.

“What about the public schools that are not up to par?”
What about them??
” are there going to be changes there too? ”
I hope so
“Please don’t tell me that they are fulfilling the basic requirements, with the kind of pass/fail ratio that they have.”
They are trying to fullil the basic requirments

” The parent body of these primarily inner city schools have been complaining for years about this, and in practice nothing is being done to change things.”
Agreed its pretty terrible

(*To be clear I’m not big on following all laws I dont really care if people break laws with no harm/victim , but you can’t fault former students/parents for complaining that the school is breakign the law and they are worse off as a result)

Eidde
“It is no different than me going into your grocery store and demanding that you have no right not to sell Cholov Stam products”

Agreed. And that’s a right you absolutely have. When Stella Dora switched to ou d many many people complained called in etc . They aren’t required to just say ok let’s buy other cookies.

All the more so when the law is on their side.
When Ben and jerries stoped selling in Israel gues what happened? If Ami were to start printing pictures of women do you think stores in williamsburg would say “ok that’s their right”. Of course it’s their right. And it’s my right to try to change it. Again,especially, if the law is on the parents side

Ujm
3 points all independent none really true. Particularly b since we ate t talking about “serious” education we ate talking about basic education at the elementary school level which they did have more of a few decades ago. So the argument thst this is “part of satmar” like the argument thst Satmar could just go to chasan sofer I just not true, and that R Moshe was “very against” bas mitzvahs is just not true

eddee

You have a nice passionate post, but it might be in the wrong thread.
tHis is about Chasidish schools.
The one comment you made about Cahsidish schools “If not, I shouldn’t send there. This includes in a chassidic community” Is not correct.
It is not like A Satmar chossid has a choice.

You can argue, too bad thats the way it is.
But you cant argue if you don’t like it don’t send there.

ymbriat

“The most obvious would be standardized test scores for secular subjects.”

I guess I misunderstood wha tyou meant by “For everyone proclaiming that Jewish education is “just fine”, ”

I thought you meant in the sense that Avira was using it, that overall Chasidim are doing fine “I don’t see why they have to change, as I’ve been saying – it works.”

The point I am making that keeps getting lost is.
Does it matter if they are successful.

The State requires schools teach math/English to elementary school
Chasidim are not.

That is the gist of the article .

The responses are manifold

One of the most common Reponses is “I don’t see why they have to change, as I’ve been saying – it works.” In other words Who needs math/English (otherwise this doesn’t work as a response)

To which I reply, that is the requirement, if you don’t like it either go to court get them to drop that requirement and/or don’t take government money (the fact that you pay taxes and are net payers) is irrelevant .

THIS is the issue that is being overlooked. I f the law requires schools teach Math/English. should schools be allowed to break the law?
And Does it matter if parents approve (this is waht I meant in my first comment, that Besalel took as a “given” it isnt a given at all, its the crux of the issue ? and how many parents do you need all parents approval? 90 %? how do we know wha t the Parents want. donl;t say they choose to send there. Its not like, well if an Aroni school doesn’t offer enough English, just choose a Zali school, that isnt how it works

“Substantial equivalency was never defined or enforced”

YEs!
And that is what some students , and parents are upset about !
EXACTLY it was the law, and not enforced

This part isnt true either
“and they are not harming any other part of klal yisroel in their ways”
Due to their inaction in 2019 they almost had all kids chinuch undermined.

“Mentioning that the majority are successful in business or blue collar work is a simple, demonstrable fact to present”

It is a fact, and it is simple but it has little to do with topic namely the lack of “basic education”

Now if you want to argue “basic education” in math/English is unimportant for the reasons you mention. . Go for it! As I said I’m not even sure I disagree. But that isn’t really the argument I’m hearing. ITs more of a distraction

“You’re just parroting all of their talking points.”
Was this directed at me?
What did I parrot from the Times?

Besalel

“This topic is also not about the parents’ right to choose to educate their children however they please.”

The thing is THAT is EXACTLY what the conversation is about.
Everything else is filler.

The NYT accurately reported that many schools do not provide even basic math/English throughout elementary school.

Most of the arguments ive seen:
The NYT are anti-Semites,
Chasidim don’t murder
its 9/11 we shouldn’t talk about other things
Non-Chasidish schools do have a decent education
Public schools are also bad.
Some Chasidim are successful

ALL those arguments (even if true) aren’t relevant to the issue at hand .
Namely that many chasidish children aren’t getting a “basic education.”

Now, you could argue that is the parents’s right.

And honestly I’m not sure where Parent’s right ends. Surely we agree that if Parents taught their children when you cross the street close your eyes and daven and make a run for it, that wouldn’t be their right “to choose to educate their children however they please.” Is teaching basic English the same,? Certainly not. I’m not sure where that line is drawn.

further complicating things is that Some Chasidish parents want the schools to teach more, they can’t just send to another school . not to mention the fact that the impetus for the scrutiny is largely from people who were affected by it, and have since tried to move on.
Of course there lack of education is holding them back, which is PRECISLCY the point. The question is is that a right parents have?

Its not an easy question to answer. And there probably is no perfect answer

AAQ

“So then why people here post exaggerated statements?”

A question I’ve had for a long time. In fact those discussions are the one I find most fascinating. Ive had ridiculously long conversations (even embarrassingly long) where another poster clearly made something up, and when called out on it just doubled down
I was pretty sure I was right, but others spoke with such certainty that I hedged a bit. (I since verified that the OP is completely wrong)

“I wonder whether anonymity here relaxes moral norms,”

I think that plays a role, but in we have’ all seen even non-anonymous people make statements/predictions that are blatantly false. Chazal say Chazaka people don’t lie if they will be found out, it doesn’t seem to be true anymore. either they are hoping people won’t follow up, or if they do others won’t be interested and will have moved on

UJM

So to be clear, you asked regarding YU ““Don’t they love people who are struggling with the yetzer hora to commit adultery?””
Do you?

Aaq

“Maybe difference is between grad school and undergrad yeshiva”

Exactly right, see my first comment in this thread

UJM

“how do Orthodox Yidden teach in Conservative Jewish schools?”
you’d need to ask them

“Also, could you imagine RIETS being under the umbrella of the Mennonites?”

no, why?

” And the Roshei Yeshiva of RIETS saying we protested other Mennonite subsidiaries worshipping getshkes but we have no control over what they do?”

I don’t really understand, why would that be a problem?

“If not, why would anyone think being under the YU umbrella, with YU condoning and funding many aspects of outright kefira, any different?”

so its not different. nu nu

Damoshe wrote “Yeshiva University decided the time was right to ask for the legal right to block the club”

I don’t think this is correct. In fact the reverse is true, the current case was begun by the group suing YU.

In fact I think his entie post has it wrong “Let’s daven that their request is granted, and the club gets shut down permanently.” We can daven for that but I don’t think that is waht the lawsuit is about. YU is not fighting “the club.” that has been there that was “long opposed”

The Roshei Yeshiva can still be wrong for staying at RIETs when it umbrella organization supported such clubs, I never commented one way or the other on that. It is hard to imagine RIETS as a subsidiary of Menonite University, though if it were I wouldn’t have a problem if other subsidiaries of the university bowed to getchkes. If you do you do you don’t need to like it