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You sure did, but not convincingly
Simple question
Is the root שחט used for a non halachic shechita?Yes or no will suffice.
I’m not asking if you are creative enough to come up with an artifical distinction , no matter how lomdish you think it is. I have no doubt you can“You will not find שחיטה used in תנ”ך or הלכה outside of the preparation or kosher food or קרבנות.”
This is incorrect.
I gave you two examplesBarry
You say “On the contrary”
but nothing you wrote is contrary to what I said .
In a nutshell: “Left/liberal parties got some votes too I think.” Am I mistaken in that assessment?
ymrbiat
Great Questionshechting doesn’t always mean “שחיטה” It means Slaughtering and is quite often used that way. The Gemara refers to Zecharia ben Yehoyada being “nishchat beheichal” It doesn’t mean they fulfilled the Halacha L’moshe Misinai of shechita R”L. It means he was slaughtered in the heichel. Even if he was killed by decapitation it is not uncommon to refer to, say “6 million Kedoshim who were shechted al kiddush Hashem” Although few of them were decapitated (shechita isnt decapitation of course) they were slaughtered, or shechted if you will.
The Arab was slaughtering his animal. Thus he was shechting it.
This answers a great question you must have on Chulin 13 a.
The Mishna says “shechitas nachri neveila” What do you mean the shechita of a nachri is neveila? A goy can’t shecht????Must be of course he can shecht/slaghter however the halachaic status of his shechita is that it is neveila.
hope this helps!
“The most annoying thing, is the Jewish in name only American Liberal Jews thinking they know what’s better for Israel, than Israelis.”
don’t let a silly talking point annoy you.
Israelis don’t agree on what is best for Israel .
There was just an election. although Netanyahu and the “right” have a clear majority.LEft/liberal parties got some votes too I think. The second largest party (Yesh Atid) for example. Even Meretz that didnt cross the threshold got over 100,000 votes.
So When Liberal Jews oppose Netanyahu it is silly to say they know better than “Israelis” They think they know better than some and agree with others.
Fantastic mareh makom
“However for young students our ancestors IN RECENT TIMES have not taught them Tanach and one should not change this tradition.” (emphasis added)
IT is always interesting to me when A gadol, says befeh maleh that changes in practice in gweneral, and chinuhc in particular occur.
Once upon a time kids learnt Tanach, after all “the halacha is that one should teach Tanach” however “in recent times” this is no longer doen.Thanks for sharing!
vira
I’m not sure what your last comment added
to remind you where We are.You raised concern that the group i question will make it easier to find each other (leading to more averia)
To which I replied that I hear you though am not so concerned, because there already is such a group (remebemr thats how the whole story began the yare suing for official recognition, but the group exists) . The only thing that would change is that the Yeshiva would have some say over it .I don’t understand what your last comment adds.
If you are raising a new concern that an officially sanctioned club would lead to acceptance . Again I hear, though society is heading down that road anyway . and I’m not convinced this leads to acceptance. ITs hear we know it we dont need to accept it. Same as Guard your eyes, or machsom lfi does it lead to “acknowledging that we say Lashon hara” ? Obviously, but we all know that. Same here the problem exists as you say ” kids have no problem holding hands with their sin partners in public,” So what now ?
We can ignore it, and hope it will go away (and write those people out of Orthodoxy)
Or we can acknowledge it and provide support.In short if I understand your new concern correctly; that it lends them support / brings it out into the open. As you already acknowledge the yare already out in the open
Smerel well put.
My only quibble is I think in theory an official “club” is a good idea. In practice I agree I don’t think this is that. I don’t think many will join, this is not what those suing want. , and the administration knows that. I suspect thhis is a ploy to have a “club” on paper to help YU legally
Avira
“Ubiq, a recognized club will draw way more members.”
The opposite is true not many LGBT are interested in being outed by their teshiva. And they are very wary that the “Torah approach” will include conversion therapyUjm
Lol ok so let’s take the lowest estimate for LGBT. The highest for oedophilia . All in a desperate attempt to make your point.You conclude “As such, you still cannot deny that the aveira of pedophilia (which also severely victimizes innocent children) should be addressed with at least the same alarcity as that of the aveira of homosexuality.”
Ok sold. Start the club you have my support. Beracha vehatzlachaalso I love that you wrote “Whereas somewhat under 5%”
when the article you cited said “The prevalence of pedophilic disorder is unknown,… Estimates of its prevalence range from one to five percent of the male population ”
So the numbers aren’t known it may even be less than your transposed 1.7% a far cry from it being “very clear”
never change
Ujm
“According to research, approximately 1.7% of the population…”
Yiu accidently wrote the number backwards
Gallup poll in Feb 2022 estimated 7.1 %And I enjoyed that you stuck in “exclusive” as if oh it’s not exclusive then it’s ok
UJM
I have no idea what you are talking about
YOU brought up pedophilia. Why don’t you back it up *
To answer your questions
Why are you accepting at face value that homosexuality is a more prevalent problem than pedophilia?”
Because The research is readily and easily available.
AND because we are discussing an LGBT club. as they say the proof is in the pudding.” But you admit above that you do not know the comparative figures.”
I admitted no such thing . It is easy to Google plus puk chazi (l’havdil elef alfei havdolas) plus
” As such, you should have the humility to not deny the problem of pedophilia.”
I never denied the problem* (i’m not really asking, I know why it is because you are not an honest person)
just
“ubiq: How on earth would you know that. Do you have any proof?”proof of what?
avira
Yes I understand your concern.
Though as I said the club exists regardless. The difference is whether it is recognized by YU. YU recognizing it won’t lead to illicit relationships.UJM
No need to repeat yourself
If you have a source by all means I’d be interestedYO
You are most welcomeOf course 8 minutes is much to long for a daf yomi shiur. If ou listen double speed you can get it down to a 4 minute daf
Ujm
Are you in denial that pedophilia is a real, serious and consistent problem in our community, MORE so than even homosexuality?
Complete denial.
It isn’t even close. I suspect you are making stuff up againAvira
I dont fi d thst aspect interesting, so I ignored it.
I don’t think it will any more than an unofficial club.
If you do you do. I hear you“What does all this have to do with my OP?”
You made refrence to the “Torah velt” that it belongs to all
LF and dovid both said similarly that t there is a Torah world with same set of values for “3000 years”
1 then made reference to covering up for abuse
Avira defended the Troah world by saying that it was not known how bad abuse was, and in the course of that mentioned even today it isn’t well understood
That led to severa,l in particular Syag, to call out Avira for his nonsense.and that is how we got here
One man’s junk is another man’s treasure
UJM
“Is this YU group trying to help homosexuals STOP ENGAGING IN HOMOSEXUALITY?YES OR NO?”
That’s like asking did you stop hitting your wife yes or No. I don’t know the teiyereh yidden who will join the club I am required to give them the benefit of doubt and assume that although they have this YH they have never chas veshalom acted upon it.
OF course if any R’Chl has then the answer to your question is a resounding YES (al caps)
as the letter says “we have been working to formulate a Torah framework to provide our LGBTQ students with an enhanced support system that continues to facilitate their religious growth and personal life journeys.”Avira
“nice try in attempting to evade your moral relativism when it’s clearly pointed out.”
what do you mean try? I am evading it . It has no bearing on this thread. You are trying to slip it in to pontificate, I’m not taking the bait.
“You then attempted to say that Rav Moshe’s Torah is relative to how goyim in his time viewed toevos”
Again no attempt. I quoted R’ Moshe as supplied by UJM VERBATIM. I didn’t add a word . Perhaps you disagree with R’ Moshe. I have no problem with that , though I am not sure why you would. Perhaps you disagree with the translation you’d have to point out where but ok thats fine.“Again, how would you feel if YU made a support group for people who are attracted to children? Do you think a yeshiva is a place for that?”
I’m surprised this is controversial.
If there was a need I’d feel terrible if they DIDN’T create such a group
It sounds dangerous not to!Avira
That was a nice long shtickel.
I don’t get the relevance.
Let’s rewindYu sent out a letter announcing a club
“In this context, we recognize that our undergraduate students, including our LGBTQ students, who choose to attend Yeshiva come with different expectations and navigate different challenges than those who choose a secular college. And as such, we have been working to formulate a Torah framework to provide our LGBTQ students with an enhanced support system that continues to facilitate their religious growth and personal life journeys.”
The op criticized yu for this
I pointed out it is no different than GYE which offers support to those struggling with a different issue.
Yiu said it was different because (among other reasons) GYE deals with a common natural YH.
I do t understand this difference. YH is YH if it is something people struggle with they need support just because you can’t understand the struggle. Sure it’s immoral what does that have to do with anything inever said or implied otherwise. I have news your you GYE is also protecting against something immoral. It’s called “niuf” for a reason. Your hair splitting is not coming from an honest place“You took one line and wrenched it out pf context.”
Um no I quoted almost a fifth of UJM’s post
“or would you bemoan the fact that the world had changed so drastically from what the Torah wants even for goyim?”
why is it either or? why can’t it be both?
We bemoan the fact the the world is getting more depraved while helping and supporting those who have this struggleYou deal with the reality at hand.
Once upon a time Yeshivas did not appreciate the severity of child abuse.
If we dug up a letter from an adom gadol written > 50 years ago in which he ” simply did not understand the far reaching psychological impact of abuse. … [and he felt thatl] disrupting major mosdos over it seemed like overkill.” Would that be relevent TODAY * ? I’m guessing you would say it isnt (please corrct me if I’m wrong)I’m surprised this is controversial
Once upon a time the trauma of abuse wasn’t fully appreicated; today it is
Once upon a time hitting was deemed proper chinuch; today most mechanchim/gedolim say it is not for our dor
Once upon a time this was “abomination that the whole world despises.”; today it isnt
Yes obviosuly the aveirah didnt change. and I never suggested nor impied otherwise.
But our approach to those dealing with this YH can change* I’m not asking about the view of him then
“In fact it is one of the greatest abominations that even the nations of the world know that it is an incomparable abomination…. The world already holds that the transgressors of this sin are disgusting and are not members of civilization at all. ”
Is this still true?
In the world? In the US? In NYC?Certainly It was true when it was written ~50 years ago (!)
It is not true today (certainly not in NYC) And not even in the US (see report from PEw research center 6/25/20 where 72% said it should be accepted. Even globally 52% said should be accepted though that report is limited to 34 countries and missing Large countries like china)As I said “Things change. Attitudes change circumstances change. ”
Thank you for the confirmation
Avira
“Rabbeim have been helping people like this for decades; it’s nothing new.”
Yes! Nailed it! shalom al yisroel
“doesn’t mean that we disregard Rav Moshe”
Obviously.
Though I don’t understand what R Moshe has to do with this thread“and this one is “acceptable” solely because the goyishe world sees it that way”
I don’t know what this means. YH is YH . If you have aa yetzer Harahan you deal with it. The gemara gives advice for a person who has a yetzer Harahan for murder. That does t mean it’s “acceptable ” but if that’s your struggle, hey become a shichst. Don’t pretend it does t exist.
Ujm
“Are you implicitly saying that Rav Moshe’s attitude and perspective on this issue expressed in the referenced teshuva is no longer acceptable in today’s day and age?”And if I am?
Things change. Attitudes change circumstances change. Smoking was once allowed on Yom tov, many poskim say today ot is assur as it is no l9nger shava lchol mefesh. R Wolbe and R Shteyman both Saud hitting children is wring form of chinuch. Does that mean they ate implicitly saying previous approach is no longer acceptable? Things change approaches change. R Aron Feldman is familiar with R Moshe he takes a different approach.
Sure you can accuse him of lying (!!!) because it doesn’t got your narrative. Though that makes me sad for the abject spiritual poverty in the fabric-wearing community who don’t trust our gedolim“I love how people can say that the gadol hadors perspective is gross…”
Rav Moshe says not to help those struggling with mishkav zachor?
in fact the opposite.
He offers support to the fellow struggling., and writes a letter ( just as long as to the other more natural struggles in the next teshuva)
OF course that letter was written almost 50 years ago
Attitudes and perspectives change. See R’ Aron Feldman’s letter written more recentlyyou must have another printing of Ig”M. I’m not sure what part of the the “gadol hadors perspective” you beleive I called gross
OR were you referring to yourself as the gadol Hador?UJM
“ubiq: How many men do you know that lack a Yetzer Hora for women?
I dont think many.
why?Avira
“that’s a normal yatzer hora, and it’s something every jew faces,”
speak for yourself, just because you struggle doesnt mean all do.And what a strange claim, so the struggles you have are real struggles that warrant organizations and support. but other people who struggle aren’t entitled to support?
What a gross perspective,. Nay, an abomination!
You think thats bad !
YWN often advertises for Guard your eyes.
A “club” that supports people struggling with shemiras einayim, and other aveiros that the Zohar tells us are worse than murder.Reportedly it has haskamos from such Institutions as Ner Yisroel, Lakewood clearly modern orthodox
“still didn’t look up the DG”M, don’t know if he says this or another sevara”
main reason is its a psik resihe on a D’rabanon especially since its K’lachar yad and mikalkel
“I have to look up the No”b you quoted; I’m not familiar with it”
Its a dagul mervava on siman 340
There it is discussing letters on food itself (which arguably is worse)
The MB brings itvut removing the letters wouldnt help
There are 2 seperate melachos
Koreah/tearing
Mechika/erasingKoreah has nothing to do with letters. Removing letters wouldnt remove koreah. If Koreah is a problem that is regardlesss of whther letters are present or not.
(As always correct me if I’m wrong)The OP’s puzzlement is over the words that are torn. “full of words, everywhere,” this has nothing to do with koreah
“The go-to shabbos poskim, like shemiras shabbos kehilchasa, rabbi ribiat, rabbi simcha bunim ohen”
ITs a bit odd to dismiss the Nodeh Beyehudah (brought in MB) becasue the “go-to shabbos poskim” dont bring it though some do in footnotes, I havent checked which) . And it isn’t just mekalkel it is also psik reisha dlo nicha lei on a d’Rabanan.
Though without question the general minhag is to be machmir And I am not saying to change that.I agree with the OP It is weird that hemishe companies don;t make it easier. (my last line in first comment was meant tongue in cheek)
RE
I assume you mean 340:14
Though I dont think has nothing to do with letters. That is korea tearing the wrapper would be the problem.
Though IT isnt a problem as the MB there explains, it still requires some toeles which most people when they tear wrappers do not have in mind.Presumably they rely on the Dagul Mervava who argues on the Rema 340:3 and says it is muttar.
He concludes המחמיר יחמיר לעצמו ולא לאחרים. So even if the manufacturers themselves are machmir like the Rema, that is for their candies not yours
“Tintin himself is not much of a role model either. In the books (and the movie), he is depicted as quite a young man, appearing not a day older than 16. Where are his parents?”
Although he APPEARS young he may in fact be suffering from a medical condition, specifically hypopituitarism resulting from repeated head trauma.
see:
Cyr A, Cyr LO, Cyr C. Acquired growth hormone deficiency and hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in a subject with repeated head trauma, or Tintin goes to the neurologist. CMAJ. 2004 Dec 7;171(12):1433-4. doi: 10.1503/cmaj.1041405. PMID: 15583175; PMCID: PMC534570.Yes
AAQ
Do you have a great Esrog guy, or did your Mocher Pomegranates take you for a ride?
I retract my original comment
the Story surfaced, and while many of the orignial WhatsApp forwards were exaggerated the gist is rightYou think music is bad?
The words are so much worse.
I noticed many of the Piyutim. Rhyme!! Some have – shudder- refrains !!! and don’t get me started on motifs.
Oy mah hayah lanu! How did this get so out of hands. There are no rhymes in Tanach. Who instituted this modern innovation of rhyming tefilos?? IT must be stoppedJoseph, my rebbe, you will be pleased to know when the Chazan, excuse me I need a second I feel uncomfrotable writing this out, but when he said Kaddish and used a , again forgive me for saying this, it is strictly to share my tzidkes, he um used a tune rachmana litzlan, (some said this tune is used for neiilah rachman litzlan to contemplate such a thing) But you wil be pleased to know I banged on the bima and made a huge machaah
You’ve taught me well Rebbe. Hope you are proud
CS
Here to answer all your questions ! !!!
Troll or not troll? – not troll
Kokosh with hot coffee or cold milk? – under age 16 milk over 16 coffee. Age 16 itself mix the two
Woodburne or Fallsburg? – Woodburne
Tums or Exlax on Motza? – Tums
what is the minhag of eating pizza on Motza? – Pizza is round like the moon but as slices are removed it gets smaller until a new pie is brought out, this reminds us of Kidush levana whcih there is minhag to do Motzoei Shabbos
or a half baked slice on Motza Peasch? – Since it isnt fully baked it can still rise to contrast with Matzah
What is the minhag of having a sushi platter at a vort? – Suchi is lashon of Sos osis which was the Haftorha for chasanim
What is the minhag of Horseradish with Geflite fish? – so that we cry thinking of the Liviyason’s mate that was killed
What is the minhag of yelling out Kohaleh during laining? – I give the answer in the thread you linked to
What is the minhag of serving Kichelech along side of the herring at the kiddush? – When eating on Shabbos we should progress through brias haolam Herring was day 5 (fish) kichel is day 3 (plant) it is improper to skip staright to day 5 so we have day 3 with it
What is the minhag of flushing twice using public toilets? – you answred this one
Story doesn’t make sense
allegedly the teacher is a “woke activist” yet story is no where to be found
Why isn’t the teacher getting all her activist friends reved up.
surely some media would pick up the story . ITs pretty sensationalWhole story is really bizarre
Avira
“They learn yiddish no differently than public school kids learn English.”Please don’t lie.
Satmar doesnt have Yiddish grammar/vocabulary classes ( I wasn’t referring to literature) . definitely not past kitah beis. Public schools do (English not Yiddish).
You maintain they don’t need to, and they are doing just fine. “that’s not the focus of chasidishe chinuch.”
B’seder that’s fair .
In fact I essentially said that in the last paragraph (“It’s a bit weird…”) .Avira
Not my main point,m so need to get too bogged down
Briefly
“My grandfather, a yiddish speaking doctor from Europe, wrote a book in yiddish on it.”
Great! Have them teach it in schools Everybody wins. not sure on the point of this“Ever read the yiddish magazines? They’re full of health news, and mention diabetes, heart disease, etc… Quite often.”
Yes indeed. This may surprise you though, not every person reads every article. So a system where such major gaps are meant to be filled in by hopefully them stumbling across your grandfather’s book or them reading every article in a newspaper. ISnt a great one.
Again, not terrible. Just a flaw I pointed out.“While amusing, they’re not statistically representative of the majority of people.”
Agreed, which is part of why I mentioned this wasn’t a particularly convincing argument. Its not like chasidim have a higher incidence of diabetes, dialysis etc (as far as I can tell), so it isnt the biggest deal. And there are wonderful chesed oprganizations to help guide through the medcial maze (maybe even providing a net benefit?) Though I’m not sure Id characterize telling a patient that if he didn’t start taking insulin he’d end up on dialysis and it was if I was explaining physiology to a child “amusing” (I bristle at you describing regular Chasidim as Developmentally disabled, if it never came up it never came up)“It’s simply hateful. You’re misrepresenting your own brethren and you’re full of hate.”
If that makes you feel better. Sure why not. Pure hate .To be clear though; you dont seem to be disputing my main point. Namely that they don’t really learn Yiddish, they just pick up what they need as they go on. Correct?
(not that this is bad per se)*
(Thsi is a side point to a pending post, it is important point I’d like to make though I dont want it to distract from that nice summary so I’m posting it here (plus to make it easier for the mods)
In my pending post I wrote “On the other hands Students that are fluent in English* can handle Regents like Darchei produces are “to a great or significant extent” similar to Public school even if they have never played an instrument .”
A point that often gets made is that so what if they are not fluent in English they are fluent in Yiddish .We don’t give a hard time to people who, say speak Spanish. Why doesnt Yiddish count .
(leaving aside the fact that to the best of my knowledge NO school and few if any parents teach kids only Spanish, and not want the kids to speak English)It isnt really true. Kids don’t really learn yiddish. In mys chool yiddish was taught only until 2nd grade. From then on it is learnt by osmosi, and whatever comes up in learning. Now, it is not a big deal that I did not know that Yiddish like LAshon Kodesh has masculine/feminine nouns, I grant that isn’t important. The problem though is things that don;lt coem up in leanring they have zero/no knowledge about .
As you know I am a physiscan. I speak yiddish so I get a lot of Yiddish-speaking patients. Like any New York physycian I get a lot of spanish speaking patients too.
The Yiddish speakers have no idea about basic functions of the human body. I try to explain that a patient has kidney failure. Many of them don;t know what “niren” are (unless they learnt Zevachim sure in Chumash you translate “kelayos” as “niren” but what ARE they) I try explaining what diabetes is and elevated sugar which can lead to kidney failure/dialysis. but they just dont have the vocabulary for it, not in Yiddish and not in English.
with my Spanish patients, I use an interpreter line, and we can have a meaningful conversation.I grant this is a side issue since Its a bit weird to say that you need English education in Elementary school, in case a person gets kidney failure down the line R”l . And USUALLY if I spend enough time they get it (not always). But this is but one example, and yes there are health networks and Liasons to help guide through the medical world. Presumably the lega lworld too.
So I dont expect you to find this a convincing argument, but it is a point worth makingujm
“If so, what points are you trying to make in your various comments on this issue?”
your last comment got me thinking, over the past back and forths youve just been repeating the same thing more than usual. Lets regroup.you are very fixated on arguing that Darchei and Satmar are the same. This is disingenuous at best. The law requires “substantial equivalency” Ok this isnt exactly defined, but it does have a defitnion, it doesn’t mean whatever you want. IT doesn’t mean exactly the same, nor does it mean not at all the same. As mentioned substantially means “to a great or significant extent.” What exactly is included I don’t know certainly when it comes to education the so called “3 R’s” are included. No reasonable person can argue that stopping English/Math at 4th grade and having homework assignments that look like the ones ithje NYT highlighted is “to a great or significant extent” the same as Public school. On the other hands Students that are fluent in English* can handle Regents like Darchei produces are “to a great or significant extent” similar to Public school even if they have never played an instrument .
Where exactly is the line drawn?. I grant I don’t know, but Satmar is clearly not within it (a point you haven’t really disputed). you want to argue neither is Darchei? So far you haven’t made a convincing argument to that end.
The MAIn issue at hand is what are Parent’s rights when it comes to education. This was my very first comment on the thread, and honestly I’m not sure. Should parents have the right not to teach their kids any English any Math.? I don’t know I never commented one way or the other .
reread my first comment to Besalel .Further complicating things is that the Parents of the schools themselves disagree. Granted most, presumably, support the Satmar shita, but some don’t. They have rights too.
This was the next significant back and forth this time with Eidee, which is what led to our back/forth. He is under the mistaken notion that if you choose a school you need to accept it no matter what.
To which I replied that I completely disagree with that (both because they didn’t choose the school, they have no choice – we commented on this part a bit though I guess we agree to disagree) AND because the law is on their side.Hope this helps clarify.
As always feel free to ask any follow up question.* The Asterisk will leads to another post that is a side point I want to make that I dont want lost in this summary
“According to your verbatim quotation, you are asserting that the new regulations are basically saying that as long as the private school gives the Regents, even if 100% of the students fail the exam, the school has proven public school equivalency and they’re okay, correct? Because the regulation you quoted only says they have to give it.”
you’d have to ask a lawyer .
Though i guess the oard of regents would require a certain pass rate to remain registered.
But that is just a guess“This response of yours is saying you believe that the Yeshivas should be forced to teach sex education.”
1) wouldn’t be so bad
2) I double checked the New regulations “sex education” dos not appear anywhere. If it does and I missed it please please share where.
As you know I love learning new things“If you noticed over the years, I’ll almost never reprimand anyone for poor English.”
good because you switched from past tense to future tense in that sentence alone .
At least I think so, but again poor education“It clearly indicates substantially everything taught in public schools is included in the law requiring equivalency in private schools”
you keep saying this. where are you getting this from. Can you cite any line of law, interpretation even a lay source that says this
“substantially” means “to a great or significant extent.” It essentially means NOT the same.
And again. so why aren’t we celebrating the new regulations, hope they get accepted. since they remove any ambiguity. and most yeshivas are already compliant ? and they are so much less restrictive than tha which is currently “required” by law (according to you)“Are you saying that you don’t care if the government drops this whole issue and continues to let Yeshivas give 90 minutes of math and low-level English, and nothing else? ”
I don’t love Government involvement in chinuch. It could only lead to bad things.
“If so, what points are you trying to make in your various comments on this issue?
It shifted over the course of the three pages
But in a nutshell. Pointing out that the complaints is coming from Those who were within the system who are upset that they were “shortchanged” (in their view) and that they have a point.I initially pointed this out to Besalel who missed the main point of the story. and then to eiddeee who completely missed thsi point
*couldn’t
See yeshiva education strikes again
ujm
“Good grief, ubiq. Your reading comprehension, indeed, is poor. Is that why you blame “The Yeshivas” for your subpar understanding?”
yes
“Taking the Regents exams will prove equivalency is the subject of the Regent exam.”
you made up this interpretation.
I quoted it verbatim
No need to add words are peshatim to it. The other paths include military school, school for the deaf You dont need to form a military school for the deaf to prove equivalancy.
Lest someone womehow think thy do. It EXPLICTLY states “will be able to demonstrate their substantial equivalency of instruction through one of the following pathways”
Just need one.
period
You’ll have to quote the line that led you to this mistaken interpretation.“Currently there ARE NO REGULATIONS defining how a school can prove equivalency. ”
Earlier you said the opposite, “full public school equivalency. ” including ” math, English, science, music, arts or sex education”
you were wrong.
Thank you for correcting the record“If you argue they must teach math, you’ll also have to concede that they must teach music and sex education, just as they do in public school.”
sounds confusing. If you are right, hopefully these new regulations are accepted then” to avoid being hypocritical you’ll need to drop your objection to Satmar not teaching science or English”
i’m not objecting to Satmar.
I dont care what they do* (perhaps I need to do teshuva for this attitude) . Some parents and former students do. I could care less.*Except that it affects us as it almost did in 2019 but now that that is over I don’t care.
“ubiq, do you make up bubbe maaisas as you go along and call them the facts, to fit and attempt to support”
nope, I’m not the one who distorted R’ Moshe’s opinion on Bas Mitzvahs That was a dear friend of mine, you may know him.
1) “Public school equivalency is NOT defined by offering the Regents”
It is Here is a verbatim quote from NYSED website
“The proposed regulation allows non-public schools to choose from various pathways to demonstrate that they provide substantially equivalent instruction to students, as required by law. Any of the state’s more than 1,800 nonpublic schools will be able to demonstrate their substantial equivalency of instruction through one of the following pathways: … It is a high school registered by the Board of Regents (grades 1 through 8 of a nonpublic school that has a registered high school program will also be deemed substantially equivalent by virtue of the school’s high school registration);”That is a verbatim quote
This was accepted as a far as I know.
If you are saying this new recommend regulation is weaker than the current one, I’m skeptical and would like to see that in writing
And it is odd that we weren’t lobbying for acceptance of this new less restrictive defitnion.You said “The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math, English, gym, music, arts and sex education” By all means share it, I cant find this law *
“Even those new regulations voted on this week are NOT effective yet. It has a future effective date. As of today nothing changed regarding the public school equivalency law”
Great So we should push for acceptance!
Not sure what pounts 6- 7 add or detract from my point
“To repeat and reiterate, NYS Education Law Section 3204(2) requires private schools provide full public school equivalency. There is NO DISTINCTION under the law between math, English, science, music, arts or sex education.”
You are (deliberately?) distorting the law it does not say ” full public school equivalency” In fact, it practically says he opposite “Substantially equivalent” music does not appear there at all “hygiene” does but the law says ” a pupil may, consistent with the requirements of public education and public
health, be excused from such study of health and hygiene as conflicts with the religion of his parents or guardian”IS there a different law you are reffering to?
“No Yeshiva or Beis Yaakov in the entire State of New York is compliant”
Again, even if that is true (it isn’t) , so what?
So they aren’t compliannt. whats the problem. I have no problem with lack of compliance .” My advance apologies for my strong words”
no apology necessary I know it is out of love*It was proposed in 2019 thank to Some taking advantage and ruining chinuch for alll of us. but B”H it was rejected by court
And for the record If your rewritten paragraph was correct (it’s not) I’m not sure what it adds or changes
Ujm
You don’t get to define equivalency. The law defines it if yiu offer regents yiu are in the clear.
Definitely of the new law see section 130.3 second bullet point.
(An elementary school attached to a high schol thst offers regents is considered equivalent)Thus of the schools you listed Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidim Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov’s Are substantially equivalent. And Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidi Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov are not violating the law.
The more you knoweddie
“First of all I am NOT advocating breaking the law. I all my comments are in a scenario that there is no law.”Then your comments are in the wrong thread
“Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with upholding the law. It is about using the law to get what they want.”
I don’t know what this means.
The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math/English. Satmar does not. Therefore Satmar is violating the law. You cant blame parents for wanting their school to educate their cildren as required by law.
Arguing that Satmar has the right to not educate the children, is arguing that they dont have to follow the law.
I’m not sure why this is complicated.
Of course it has nothing to do with some virtuos “upholding of the law” I specifically said so.
you can argue that, I have no problem with that. Satmar is against education they want to prevent kids from getting education I completely get that. But be clear with what you are defending .“the same with a school. You may have a legal right to register a complaint, I won’t venture an opinion on the Halachic right to report to the govt as I am not a halachic authority, but in my opinion,given the options in schooling, no moral right.”
would you say the same for suing a school that refuses to install a ramp/elevator for a child in a wheelchair? (Like you setting aside very real halachic concerns, or “suing” in beis din) does a parent have a moral right to demand their child get access to school or should they just choose another school?
UJM
Halevaiavira
agreed, its Less than modern (meaning less than you view modern, and we all know how that is) .
Apolagies if I indicated that I was unsure on this point.
I have their brochure discouraging people attending the Siyum hashas. Sure there are deeper disagreements there regardi nghre Aguda, that are more historic than anything. But the bottom line is its pretty clear. So it is in writing, and of course I grew up next door (literally) to Satmerer chasidimAgain this is all a side issue. As you correctly note these arent all interchangeable, and going to a different school is not easy.
Is it very hard? (I think so, border line impossible), you want to argue iI’m exageraitng and it is s it only a little hard. Ok fine why should they have to make a hard change even if its a little hard to educate their kids in the way they (and the law) sees fitujm
“You simply assert Satmar parents can’t sent their children to Chasan Sofer, Vien, etc without explaining why they cannot”
sorry, I thought I did with my shidusich refrence
I’ll elaborate
It is the equivelent of a Lakewood famiily sending their kid to Ramaz. Ok thats probably downplaying it a bit, since in Satmar’s view the disticntion between Satmar and Chasan Sofer is far far gretaer than Lakewood’s view of the distinction between Lakewood and Ramaz.
Their family would be the one with the kid who is off, not really one of us, somethign is wrong. etc etc“you think that would shut up most of the critics?”
I dont care about “most of the cirtics”Eiddee
” A parent is not entitled to have a particular school change it’s educational philosophy to accommodate them. ”Why on earth not? If the law is on their side OF course they do. To be clear The school of course has a right o fght back .
Say a School had an edcuational philosophy that cochlear implants look weird and give the principal the creeps so no children with them can come Would it be wrong for parents to sue? I don’t think anybody would agree with that.
Schools don’t just have carte blanche to do wha tthey please (especially if they take govt funds, regardless if the parents pay taxes too) There are laws that schools need to follow. Included in that law is not discriminating against disabled. Also included in the law is providing a basic education.“At that point the school has a right to do what they wish with that information. ”
Of course I’m not sure what you mean. Schools have rights parents have rights . Both are true
PArents have a right to complain Schools have a right to act on or ignore those complaints. IF the two rights are in conflict then it is the courts role to weigh in .I am certainly not advocating breaking the law, ”
You literally are period. Full stop. . Nobody claims The schools were following the law. They weren’t saying that is their right, or that they are succesful in other ways are all advocating breakign the law* you say ” but I do believe this law is unfair, unrealistic, and subject to abuse. ” Ok thats fair, guess what ? There is an avenue for that.“What about the public schools that are not up to par?”
What about them??
” are there going to be changes there too? ”
I hope so
“Please don’t tell me that they are fulfilling the basic requirements, with the kind of pass/fail ratio that they have.”
They are trying to fullil the basic requirments” The parent body of these primarily inner city schools have been complaining for years about this, and in practice nothing is being done to change things.”
Agreed its pretty terrible(*To be clear I’m not big on following all laws I dont really care if people break laws with no harm/victim , but you can’t fault former students/parents for complaining that the school is breakign the law and they are worse off as a result)