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YO
By ignoring my question we gave it away that we are one and the same.Maybe answer my question to get them off track
To recap:
You said “50% of kashrus decisions are not based on shulchan aruch” (paraphrasing)
When asked to provide an example you said giving a hechsher on water.
To which I asked where in shulchan sruch does it say water isn’t kosher? Why is certifying water as kosher against shulchan aruch?Avira
It’s not too late to go back to your roots and join us.
Do teshuvaOk time to fess up I created a third profile named “common saychel” with which to call people trolls (I was too embarrassed to do it under one of my other names)
Now I accidentally outed one of my other names using my common saychel sn.
This is all getting confusing mods maybe time to deactivate my CS account lNo I didn’t
I mean um oops what are you talking about?
………………
Seriously though don’t quit your day job to go troll hunting full time, you are getting rusty
RE
Sure, my pleasure
it is a topic I find fascinatingRed sock
You added “mostly”
And again yes Rishonim argue on Rashi that is irrelevant . The argument goes that we’ve accepted Rashi as pshatOops made a big mistake in my last post
corrected here:
RE
point of clarification
you said ” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”
Those two Septembers are not the same
To be consistent The question should be
Using Gregorian dates:
” why do we follow Shmuel (Oct 7) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”or
Using Julian dates
” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sep 9)? Is science incorrect here?”(I prefer the first way since we use the Gregorian calendar thus we are more familiar with it, and in fact in my first version of this post I made a mistake with the Julian date )
“they would institute a bracha “shelo asani moderni””
Can a person born moderni but who then converts to Torah True Judaism tm still make the beracha?
What about the reverse?
” It’s a harsh but legitimate question.”
Its a foolish question
These kind of things lend themselves to supporting whatever you already held
IF you like Zionism then it was because Yidden were to slow in embracing Zinomism
If you don’t like Zionism then it is becasue many DID embrace zinosim
talking in shul, tznius, assmilation whatever you wantSo if yone wanted to argue that “Ashkenazim were so advanced in torah and mitzvos”
Then the answer to your question would be because “b’krovei ekodesh” Hashem is sanctified by those closest to him – AshkenazimThat’s why the question is foolish
RE
point of clarification
you said ” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”
Those two Septembers are not the same
To be consistent The question should be
Using Gregorian dates:
” why do we follow Shmuel (Oct 7) and not science (Sept 22)? Is science incorrect here?”or
Using Julian dates
” why do we follow Shmuel (Sept 24) and not science (Oct 5)? Is science incorrect here?”(I prefer the first way since we use the Gregorian calendar thus we are more familiar with it )
We don’t general follow “science” in halachic matters
We follow science as handed down by the Chachmei Hamesorah.Shmuel’s Tekufa isn’t Sept 24, it is Oct 7 (until 2100 when it will be Oct 8)
That said , there is a more accurate Tekufa of Rav Ada Which was shortly before midnight Sunday Sep 25 which is obviously closer to 9/22 than Oct 7 is *
The Chazon Ish explains that the reason why we don’t use it for vesein tal umatar is that it is too complicated for the massess. We all need to figure out when to say vesein tal umatar, same goes for birchas hachama. So we use a simpler albeit less accurate calculation that is “close enough” (He explains that Shmuel isnt arguing on Rav Ada, of course Shmuel new his calendar was innacurate in Berachos he says he knew the paths of stars like the roads of Neharda)
However for the calendar which is given over to chachamim we use the more complicated tekufa of Rav Ada
*
The reason why this is off by more than you might expect, is that Jewish Tekufos assume 4 equal periods
That of Shmuel assumes 365 days & 6 hrs or 365.25 days a season is 1/4 of that = 91 days 7.5 hr
That of Rav Ada assumes a year lasts 365.24682 days a season is 1/4 of that
(For comparative purposes The Gregorian Calendar assumes a year lasts 365.24250 days (Note this too is a bit too slow and will eventually need to be adjusted as the calendar is sliding forward by one day every 3323 years))
However the astronomical seasons are not of equal length. This is becasue the Earth’s trip around the sun is not a crcle it is an ellipse so the seasons are not equal I found these values online: Spring = 92 days, 19 hours; summer = 93 days, 15 hours; autumn,= 89 days, 20 hours; winter= 89 days, zero hours. Thus while the Gregorian and Astronomical YEARS are very close to that of Rav Ada. The SEASONS are off by a few days*should read chicken and milk
(and yes obviously the two are not directly comparable, was the first example that came to my mind point is just because a machlokes exists doesn’t mean all sides are always given equal weight)
RE
I don’t fully understand this minhag we have of repeating the same thing every year
“This year the Sept tekufa (Tekufas Tishri) is Sept 22 ”
This is not correct
Tekufas Tishrei according to Shmuel this year was Oct 7 at 3 PM*. 60 days later (starting with Fri Oct 7 as day #1**) gives you Monday Dec 5th as day #60. We start Vesein Tal umatar on Monday. Monday begins Sunday night Dec 4th.
* If for some reason you want to use the Julian Calendar, though I’m not sure why since it isn’t really in use today, then the Tekufa was Sep 24 (Oct 7 – 13 days = Sep 24) not Sep 22
** This mistake has been pointed out before, when counting Halachic days DAY # 1 is (almost?) always counted. A baby has his bris at eight days old. For a baby born today , if you ask some guy on the street when is he 8 days old ? They would likely say: “1 day old tomorrow Thurs, 2 day old Fri … 8 days old next Thursday” As you know they would be wrong, TODAY is day 1, tomorrow day 2 … Day 8 is next wed. Ditto for 7 days of sehva berachos, shiva, sheloshim etc day # 1 counts . Same thing here When counting 60 days the day of the tekufa is day #1
ymripat
“Could someone please clarify which are being consigned to the bonfire?”
The Leshem one.
There are two pirushim they have “Rashi kipshutio” this is explaining Rashi and not the subject at hand. And “Pishuto shel mikra” This is explaining the pesukim often differently than Rashired sock
Before calling it ridiculous you should understand it.
You say “Tosfos on that gemara as well as ALL the pashtanim on the pasuk (rashbam, ibn ezra, bchor shor, radak etc) all say that pshuto shel mikra is…”
Yes but Rashi says differently. The signatories feel Rashi IS peshuto shel mikra.
Just like you would ban a hashgacha that allows chicken and milk to be mixed together even though R’ Yosi holds that it can, as the halacha was decided not like him.
So too , they feel that pshat in chumash is decided by Rashi, not by the Ramban, and not by the author/editors of pishuto shel mikraYou can certainly argue and point to other chumashim that.
I grant the whole thing is a bit odd, since lots of chumashim have a running commentary that differs from Rashi at times, Artscroll has done this (eg their Stone commentary does not allways follow Rashi) . I’m not so sure why this one raised so much ire maybe the title “pishuto shel mikra” or maybe as N0mesorah suggested its a spinoff from something else
See
“Examining Average Age at First Marriage within Orthodox Judaism: A Large Community-Based Study”
Does that mean the Age gap tm adherents were able to close it? Or as many suspected it was a false religion
YO
“I need a hashgacha agency to tell me water is kosher?”
You don’t, who says you do?
Even for Pesach the OU says you don;t need a hashgacha (from their website “All unflavored and without the addition of minerals bottled water, seltzer and sparkling water is kosher for Passover, even without any kosher supervision”)You have blinders. You are so blinded by hate that you just spew nonsense.
You said “50% of the decisions, operations and Hashkafa of most hashgachas have nothing to do with Halacha”
to back this up you said “For example, giving a Hechsher to water” what is this an example of?
where in shulchan Aruch does it say water can’t be kosher?It is kosher the company wants it certified so they certify it what seif of Shulchan Aruch does this oppose
THE OU doesnt tell you you cant buy Water without a hashgacha. EVEN for PEsach
YO
sorry for the late reply
None of your examples are true“For example, giving a Hechsher to water that comes directly from filtered water pipes (zero chashash for grapes, etc.). Have you ever heard of “kosher” water??”
I dont understand this example, Are you saying it isnt kosher? How is this an example of them not following shulchan aruch. Water is kosher and they certify that it is. What is the problem?
Another example is a Hashgacha requiring the food manufacturer to use ingredients/components only with THEIR Hashgacha.”
This is not true. kashrus agencies regularly allow ingredients from other agencies that have similar standrads. There is an organization AKO that sets/discusses these standards.
You claim to be “an adherent of Emes. ” Yet to back up your claim
“50% of the decisions, operations and Hashkafa of most hashgachas have nothing to do with Halacha. You guys know that right?” You could only come up[ wit htwo examples one of which is not against halacha, and the other isnt true.Presumably these are your better examples of your “50% of decisions” claim
Looking forward to you becoming an adherent of emes, and acknowledging that you made that upYO
I did not know that.
Can you give an example?
YO
Huh?
why don’t you read the replies” …the minhag of pouring…” ”
“It’s a very common minhag.”
“I’ve seen many families who have this minhag …”
“This could be an old minhag…”YO
nowhere.
nobody said you should
YO
“Where is this brought down?”
where is what brought down?
YO
Who said it is?
YO
I guess I don’t really understand your question then
YO
I’m not sure where you looked
OC 473 is leil Pesach the first cup ie KiddushThe very first word is Mozgin
what does “mozgin” mean?Before you say it means to pour. See Rambam Chametz umatza 7:9
Mozgin means “we dilute”
now you could say it is lav davka, our wine doesn’t need dilution it is already diluted etc etc
but it does talk about diluting the wineNow you know!
YO
Among other places
OC 473:1“1) why do we pour water from becher into wine bottle before kiddush?”
The reason I’ve heard (I believe from R” Belsky Z “l) is that during the time of shas, wine had to be diluted as it was thick syrupy and high in alcohol content. so much so that pouring cup is often described as “mozgin” literaly – diluting.
Today in a nod to Talmudic practice we too are “mozgin” the wine before kiddush#2 sounds made up
UJM
thats for sure true.
But shas joined in 92 not BECAUSE of R’ Shach. He was opposed to Shas joining, the fact that they joined anyway created a bit of a rift between the two as damoshe alludes to
UJM
In 1992, UTJ did NOT join the government as per Rav Shach’s instruction.
Shas joining was not because of Rav Shach, in fact the opposite is trueymr
I’m so sorry I didn’t understand your last post
you say ” If you imagine that each one had their throats slit,”
but I’m not the one who says that. YOU said Shechita ONLY applies to “kosher food or קרבנות.”
Though you conceded there are a few exceptions.
So I’m asking you leshitascha, why is it used there. Accoridng to YOU it would mean each one had there throat slit making sure there was no sheiyah, chalada etc *I don;t have any such question. Shechita is used the same way slaughter is in English (lhavdil)
It is used for Jewish ritual Slaughter; OR it is used for a bloody death whether human or not human.Thus a “Goy who shechts” is not a question at all according to me Sure a goy can shecht but his shechita is no good. This is wha t the mishan says
“And yes, מפרשים discuss why ושחט was used with רי זירא. Because it isn’t the normal use of the word. Look it up next time דף יומי comes around.”
I can’t wait that long. And I suspect you are making them up. sure there are meforshim who say it doesn’t mean killed literally ** in which case it is certainly a borrowed term but I’m skeptical that there are thsoe who say it does mean killed literally , but the “shechita” isnt literal *** since shecita only applies to kosher animals
* Though they still arent kosher animals, nor in the beis hamikdash so yet another exception !
** showing yet AGAIN that shechita isnt always used to refer to Jewish ritual slaughter. IT can mean he caused him to be full till his throat with wine (Maharsha) or drew forth his torah learning (Ben Yehoyada)
*** Though again whatever those exceptions are you’d have to add them to the growing list
Lol
“After all, everyone understands shechita as referring to kosher slaughter.”
No
You are still making the same mistake
shechita does not (only) mean ritual slaughter.
Hardly anyone would even imagine such a thing. It is not hard to look up the word “shechita” in a dictionary to find the modern defitnion, or in a concordance to find it used in Tanach for non-ritual slaughterR’ Zeira died by shechita (before he was revived)
so did the Bnei Ephraim (Shoftim 12:6) Sons of Achav and family of Achazyah (MElachim 2 10)“The אבן עזרא explains that the term וישחטם is used instead of the proper term ויהרגם because it took place in the wilderness, where cattle normally graze.”
YES!!!
So it is not only used for cattle. It is sometimes used for people.
Why use such a gruesome word for people? Especially since by the meraglim there was no dying by slaughter. As chazal tell us they dug graves lay in them and many died. How on earth is that “shechita” ??? So the mefarshim explain., as you were kind enough to supplyAnd besides . Ok so you don’t like this example. Thats ok I have tons more!
So your statement “You will not find שחיטה used in תנ”ך or הלכה outside of the preparation or kosher food or קרבנות.”
Has 3 exceptions now.
Except in the beis hamikdash, except in the wilderness, except by a Goy who is proficient.what about The Bnei Efraim in Shoftim why is the word Shechita used there?
Also
Just occurred to meyou says “The אבן עזרא explains that the term וישחטם is used instead of the proper term ויהרגם because it took place in the wilderness, where cattle normally graze. So the פסוק would properly be understood as “to slaughter them like cattle in the wilderness”.”
but shechita only means ritually slaughtered (according to you) not just random cow slaughter. After all the post in question involved the slaughter of a cow, and you insist that that is NOT shechita.
So why is the word shechita used which ONLY means ritual slaughter in your view.
how does he answer the question (as you understand it) ?No need to apologize
this whole thread was silly
I’m fine having fun with it
If in the process we learn something all the betterthanks for the mareh mekomos. Though I’m not sure what they add.
I don’t deny that a person being “shechted” r “l is very unpleasant. And even if one had to die, to die by “shechita” r”l is a terrible way to go, and when the Passuk uses such a gruesome term especially
at the hand of the Ribono shel olam; a pshat is warranted .nonetheless, clearly they weren’t actually shechted as required to make food kosher.
Your complaint was “שחיטה is a הלכה משה מסנ”
This isnt true*. The word shechita is used lots of times in Tanach not referring to halachic shechita. (some examples provided there are more)
It is used lots of times in the Gemara not referring to halachic shechita especially when the shechita is passul for whaever reason . (example provided)
Another example (not in the beis hamikdash) ” Kam Rabbah shactei L’reb Zeira”Furthermore in modern Hebrew it certainly includes any form of slaughter have a look at any Hebrew dictionary.
So even if we couldn’t find “=non-halachic examples of “shechita” in Tanach/shas (we found plenty) ok so YWN is using it in the modern hebrew sense . whats the problem?* of course the exact method how to correctly shecht is haalcha l’moshe misinai, but that that is ALL the word means is not true.
If you want more examples
(Though unclear why a mishna describing a goy shechting is not a perfect example of a goy shechting that isnt korbanos nor kosher food)Bamidbar 14: 16 not korbanos nor kosher food
Shoftim 12:6 not korbanos nor kosher food
Melachim 1 18:40 not korbanos nor kosher food
Melachim 2 10:7 not korbanos nor kosher food
Melachim 2 10:14 not korbanos nor kosher food
Melachim 2 25:7 not korbanos nor kosher foodAnd none of these “shechitas” occur in the azarah so your borrowed term “distinction” doesn’t work either.
Again, I don’t doubt you can come up with creative distinctions for each (this was many people so it’s different, that was before the beis hamikdash was built so it’s different)
The simple fact is the word shechita isn’t only used for halachic shechitaYou sure did, but not convincingly
Simple question
Is the root שחט used for a non halachic shechita?Yes or no will suffice.
I’m not asking if you are creative enough to come up with an artifical distinction , no matter how lomdish you think it is. I have no doubt you can“You will not find שחיטה used in תנ”ך or הלכה outside of the preparation or kosher food or קרבנות.”
This is incorrect.
I gave you two examplesBarry
You say “On the contrary”
but nothing you wrote is contrary to what I said .
In a nutshell: “Left/liberal parties got some votes too I think.” Am I mistaken in that assessment?
ymrbiat
Great Questionshechting doesn’t always mean “שחיטה” It means Slaughtering and is quite often used that way. The Gemara refers to Zecharia ben Yehoyada being “nishchat beheichal” It doesn’t mean they fulfilled the Halacha L’moshe Misinai of shechita R”L. It means he was slaughtered in the heichel. Even if he was killed by decapitation it is not uncommon to refer to, say “6 million Kedoshim who were shechted al kiddush Hashem” Although few of them were decapitated (shechita isnt decapitation of course) they were slaughtered, or shechted if you will.
The Arab was slaughtering his animal. Thus he was shechting it.
This answers a great question you must have on Chulin 13 a.
The Mishna says “shechitas nachri neveila” What do you mean the shechita of a nachri is neveila? A goy can’t shecht????Must be of course he can shecht/slaghter however the halachaic status of his shechita is that it is neveila.
hope this helps!
“The most annoying thing, is the Jewish in name only American Liberal Jews thinking they know what’s better for Israel, than Israelis.”
don’t let a silly talking point annoy you.
Israelis don’t agree on what is best for Israel .
There was just an election. although Netanyahu and the “right” have a clear majority.LEft/liberal parties got some votes too I think. The second largest party (Yesh Atid) for example. Even Meretz that didnt cross the threshold got over 100,000 votes.
So When Liberal Jews oppose Netanyahu it is silly to say they know better than “Israelis” They think they know better than some and agree with others.
Fantastic mareh makom
“However for young students our ancestors IN RECENT TIMES have not taught them Tanach and one should not change this tradition.” (emphasis added)
IT is always interesting to me when A gadol, says befeh maleh that changes in practice in gweneral, and chinuhc in particular occur.
Once upon a time kids learnt Tanach, after all “the halacha is that one should teach Tanach” however “in recent times” this is no longer doen.Thanks for sharing!
vira
I’m not sure what your last comment added
to remind you where We are.You raised concern that the group i question will make it easier to find each other (leading to more averia)
To which I replied that I hear you though am not so concerned, because there already is such a group (remebemr thats how the whole story began the yare suing for official recognition, but the group exists) . The only thing that would change is that the Yeshiva would have some say over it .I don’t understand what your last comment adds.
If you are raising a new concern that an officially sanctioned club would lead to acceptance . Again I hear, though society is heading down that road anyway . and I’m not convinced this leads to acceptance. ITs hear we know it we dont need to accept it. Same as Guard your eyes, or machsom lfi does it lead to “acknowledging that we say Lashon hara” ? Obviously, but we all know that. Same here the problem exists as you say ” kids have no problem holding hands with their sin partners in public,” So what now ?
We can ignore it, and hope it will go away (and write those people out of Orthodoxy)
Or we can acknowledge it and provide support.In short if I understand your new concern correctly; that it lends them support / brings it out into the open. As you already acknowledge the yare already out in the open
Smerel well put.
My only quibble is I think in theory an official “club” is a good idea. In practice I agree I don’t think this is that. I don’t think many will join, this is not what those suing want. , and the administration knows that. I suspect thhis is a ploy to have a “club” on paper to help YU legally
Avira
“Ubiq, a recognized club will draw way more members.”
The opposite is true not many LGBT are interested in being outed by their teshiva. And they are very wary that the “Torah approach” will include conversion therapyUjm
Lol ok so let’s take the lowest estimate for LGBT. The highest for oedophilia . All in a desperate attempt to make your point.You conclude “As such, you still cannot deny that the aveira of pedophilia (which also severely victimizes innocent children) should be addressed with at least the same alarcity as that of the aveira of homosexuality.”
Ok sold. Start the club you have my support. Beracha vehatzlachaalso I love that you wrote “Whereas somewhat under 5%”
when the article you cited said “The prevalence of pedophilic disorder is unknown,… Estimates of its prevalence range from one to five percent of the male population ”
So the numbers aren’t known it may even be less than your transposed 1.7% a far cry from it being “very clear”
never change
Ujm
“According to research, approximately 1.7% of the population…”
Yiu accidently wrote the number backwards
Gallup poll in Feb 2022 estimated 7.1 %And I enjoyed that you stuck in “exclusive” as if oh it’s not exclusive then it’s ok
UJM
I have no idea what you are talking about
YOU brought up pedophilia. Why don’t you back it up *
To answer your questions
Why are you accepting at face value that homosexuality is a more prevalent problem than pedophilia?”
Because The research is readily and easily available.
AND because we are discussing an LGBT club. as they say the proof is in the pudding.” But you admit above that you do not know the comparative figures.”
I admitted no such thing . It is easy to Google plus puk chazi (l’havdil elef alfei havdolas) plus
” As such, you should have the humility to not deny the problem of pedophilia.”
I never denied the problem* (i’m not really asking, I know why it is because you are not an honest person)
just
“ubiq: How on earth would you know that. Do you have any proof?”proof of what?
avira
Yes I understand your concern.
Though as I said the club exists regardless. The difference is whether it is recognized by YU. YU recognizing it won’t lead to illicit relationships.UJM
No need to repeat yourself
If you have a source by all means I’d be interestedYO
You are most welcomeOf course 8 minutes is much to long for a daf yomi shiur. If ou listen double speed you can get it down to a 4 minute daf
Ujm
Are you in denial that pedophilia is a real, serious and consistent problem in our community, MORE so than even homosexuality?
Complete denial.
It isn’t even close. I suspect you are making stuff up againAvira
I dont fi d thst aspect interesting, so I ignored it.
I don’t think it will any more than an unofficial club.
If you do you do. I hear you“What does all this have to do with my OP?”
You made refrence to the “Torah velt” that it belongs to all
LF and dovid both said similarly that t there is a Torah world with same set of values for “3000 years”
1 then made reference to covering up for abuse
Avira defended the Troah world by saying that it was not known how bad abuse was, and in the course of that mentioned even today it isn’t well understood
That led to severa,l in particular Syag, to call out Avira for his nonsense.and that is how we got here
One man’s junk is another man’s treasure