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Ctrebbe
“when someone gets up and speaks in Yiddish he is essentially saying to those who can’t understand “please pardon me while I ignore you for the next 15 minutes”
Assuming that’s true, I still don’t understand why that is worse than ignoring the Yiddish speakers for 3 hours.
Can you please explain?lakewhut
There is a need, to hose the large crowd of lomdei Troah and those who honor lomdei Torah
don’t forget, this was foreseen millenia ago Megilla 6a.
אלו תראטריות וקרקסיות שבאדום שעתידין שרי יהודה ללמד בהן תורה ברבים
Ashreinu shezachinu lekach
Behaloscha is the perfect week for this thread, as we start a span of parshiyos with klal Yisroel’s constant kvetching.
Its interesting to see how some things don’t changeJoseph Satmar does not, I think neither does chabad, but I a, less familiar with them and their shitos
If Pesach you should as they might be particular about avoiding kitniyos.
Avi
1!. “ugly Americans” Your words
2. Meh. Granted the bulk of conversation should be in a language all understand, but normal people don’t get bent out of shape if for a few minutes “landsmen” converse in their preffered language.
Anyway this whole analogy is faulty. A better example is a table where 2 guests one speaks Hebrew and the other speaks English, and the English speaker insists ALL conversation be in English
3. I dont understand. So do that! is anybody stopping you from hosting an English only (Love that this is somehow more inclusive) event? Go for it. Who is stopping you ?
4. “It probably no longer applies even there as almost no one in Hungary understands Yiddish. ” I already got this psak from Moreinu Harav Zahavasdad shlita and I will no longer yell and shout when my Rabbi speaks in English. That said, (and this may surprie you) but not all chasidim follow your and his esteemed psak. You say “Moreover, takkanot often fall into disuse.” not this one. you will not find a n Eglish speech by an ungarisher chasidus to this dayZD
“As far as the Hungarian Takanah, that probably doesnt apply anymore”
Thats you opinion and for now on I will rely on you and stop yelling at my Rabbi when he speaks in English, but not all necessarily agree with you.
” since most hungrians probably dont speak Yiddish, but rather speak english”
I’m not sure what you mean. Rest assured you will not find a public speech in English in a Satmar, Spink, Viznitz, munkatch etc Shtibel.
“and its not a Hungarians event anyway”
True, but you are forgetting “t is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate,”
Incidentally, I love the logic of: “Lets make this event truly unifying by only speaking the language I understand.” (not a direct quote)
Absolutely fantastic stuff. This might be one of my favorite threadsAvi
“You may think that it is lifnim mishurat hadin but that is because you are an American and assume that really everyone speaks English.”:
No, its because I’m not so sensitive that I have to understand EVERY word that is said amongst themselves. I am mature enough to let them speak among themselves in their own language that they are more comfortable in.
“I could not understand how they knew.”
I guess maybe they could tell from the way you look? (look at your last sentence)YO
“Perhaps a few Yiddish and Hebrew speeches are ok.”huuray! so we agree shalom Al yisroel
now we just need to convince Ct rebbe that #chasidishearsmatter“With all due respect to R’ Yoel of Satmar, he is not the final word on the status of Hebrew. He is entitled to his da’at but it is not binding on all Jews.”
Oh obviously, few if any agree wit hhim on this. But even fewer would say that ““”It’s [ie speaking Hebrew] the most basic thing in being a Jew”Look this conversation is sillier than most of our conversations on yiddish.
Its main reedeeming value is that it really highlights the backwards thinking of the anti-yidishists.
the question was:
“Can anyone explain the objective of having speeches in Yiddish at the siyum hashas for Daf yomi in America?”The answer is really quite straight forward, and was identified by the OP “If it is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate, ” As has been pointed out the majority of attendees DO understand enough Yiddish. While, yes there are many that don’t there are also many that understand only Yiddish.
The most inclusive way to accommodate all is to have speeches in both languages. I get that some here hate yiddish and yiddish speakers (all in the name of achdus of course) but is it really so much to ask to sit there for 10? 15? minutes while a speech is made that others can understand?
(though granted, ideally there would be simultaneous translation on the jumbotrons, which doesn’t seem too complicated to arrange)Furthermore, to many chasidim especially Hungarians there is an issur the first of the takanos michalovityz reads “אסור לדרוש דרשה בלשון אומות העולם” (in Hebrew so you know its serious) . they want to join you although it makes them uncomfortable that the bulk of the speeches violate their takanos, some are willing to join listen to many speeches in English for the sake of achdus, All they ask for in return is some acknowledgment of Yiddish.
IS that really so unreasonable?
(This paragraph is secondary since I’m not sure how many take the takanos seriously but would be satisfied as long as some Yiddish is there, Those who reealy care about the takanos like the Satmar Rebbes won’t be there (partly) due to the fact that the speeches are in English)Oh no, turns out Ubiquitin’s Law of the internet already exists.
It is known as Skitt’s Law “”any post correcting an error in another post will contain at least one error itself” ( which apparently is an online version Hartman’s Law of Prescriptivist Retaliation: “any article or statement about correct grammar, punctuation, or spelling is bound to contain at least one eror”.Which brings me to Ubiquitin’s Law of the internet 2.0: Any clever aphorism has already been stated
Avi
“Ubiquitin, it should be “fewer Latin speakers” as they are counted as individuals”
See, my English is so bad that I can barely get a coherent point across. Do you really want me sitting at a siyum with all the speeches in English?
(as an aside, you satisfy ubiquitin’s law of the internet, as your post contains not one, but 2 typo’s, don’t worry its ok I fully understood you“When I am with Europeans from the same country they speak to each other in Hebrew as a courtesy to me.”
solely in Hebrew? Or primarily?
If primarily, I am in agreement, that is what they should be doing and the siyum hashas in America should primarily be in English.
If solely, that is really lifnei mishuras hadin and not necessary at all, and I have never seen that ever, and knowing many Europeans I am extremely doubtful that that has ever occurred everCTR
1. “Yabia Omer is Jewish but he is not Yiddish”
Um, he absolutely is. He is a yid through and through, true while he seems insistent on highlighting divisions among yidden, while confusingly at the same time insiting that others shouldn’t care about them and he clearly is very insecure about his heritage, He does in fact have a varme yiidish neshama, and is no less a yid than any other yid.2. “I never said our common language is Hebrew”
Nope, my response wasn’t all geared to you. Point 2 was in response to the direct quote cited, from another poster here.3. “However, if you would want to say a dvar Torah at the table to teach and inspire the people at the table I would hope you would say it in a language they understand.”
Though I will still quote a passuk in its original. sure I will then translate it, but I dont think they mind .
More to the point though, Are you suggesting that The speeches ALL be SOLELY in English ignoring the people there who don’t feel comfortable communicating in English? Would YOU invite someone to your house for a meal and then speak to everyone at the table in a foreign language?4. “If it makes them feel like they are part of some elite segment of society”
Nu, so whats so bad if during the siyum Hashas they get to feel like they are apart of some elite segment of society.
Though this isnt the main reason, nobody feels “elite” staring at some latin speaker. the reason they do it is as I explained above.“I do not believe that there are more than a handful of participants who have difficulty with English.”
you believe wrong. When the government wants to highlight the important of vaccinations, guess what language they write their flyers in? when politicians post their campaign posters in boro PArk and williamsburg. guess what language they use?
If Yiddish is acceptable for the government to use in communicating important information to yidden, al achas kama vekama it is appropriate at a Siyum Hashas“Am I in crazy land?”
Based on your bizzare recent questions, yes.“I don’t get how anyone can be “frum” and not speak Hebrew? ”
Hebrew is a 19th century revival movmen. Are you suggesting that centuries of Jews before hand werent Frum?“”It’s the most basic thing in being a Jew”
Pity, the satmar Rebbe Was opposed to the most basic thing in Judaism. who knew?“You learn in Hebrew”
Who does? Lets look at the most frequent passuk וידבר ה‘ אל משה לאמר. take that first word, is it Hebrew? (note I’m not asking if it is similar to modern Hebrew or decipherable to a modern Hebrew speaker) In all of Tanach, I have never come across words for iems I use daily, car computer (of course electricty I did find as obviously Yechezkel was referring to the Kisei hakavod’s electricity).
I did once apply my biblical Hebrew skillls when I needed a new belt. I asked for an אבנט, my quest was unsuccessful.” Plus go to Israel and even in “Chareidi” yeshivas they speak Hebrew.”
A. All? How sure are you?
B. I was under the impression that this conversation was regardingthe American siyum hashas, what does Israeli yeshivos speaking Hebrew havve to do with anthing?“An argument could be made for 1850s Poland or Libya. But not now.”
could you make that argument?
Why is today different?a few points
1) Joseph’s first topic was most on point, vesu lo midi
2) “Our common language is Hebrew. Why arent’t these rabbis speaking Hebrew?”
Why is our common language Hebrew? and since when? I don’t speak Hebrew3) The OP asked “I assume nearly all of the attendees who do speak Yiddish also understand English very well.” you assume incorrectly. As you correctly note “t is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate”
Thus in order to INCLUDE (your word) Yiddish is added. There are not as many only Hebrew speakers at the US Siyum Hashas, if there where of course there would be languages in Hebrew. I’ll bet at Siyum Hashas Languages in south America there are speeches in Spanish and Hebrew, since those or the languages spoke n by attendees there.4) “Would you invite someone to your house for a meal and then speak to everyone at the table in a foreign language?”
Yes! I dont skip benching just because someone at the table doesn’t understand the words. I explain what we will do, give him an English bencher, and go on speaking in Lashon Kodesh. Is this really a strange idea?
d o yo insist on skipping benching (or benching in English) just because someone at the table doesn’t fully understand?5) At Harvard’s graduation (lehavdil) a speech is given in Latin, there are less Latin speakers who attend the Harvard graduation than Yiddish speakers at the Siyum. So why do they do that ? That I can tell you in one word: Tradition!
“would having a BTL in place of a different degree affect my odds of getting intoa school like NYU or columbia? ”
Asked and answered .
Are you really asking if a BTL is equal to a real degree?“BTL is generally worthless in the secular world”
I have no idea what this line is supposed to mean. I suspect it is gibberish,.
“Do you know if a BTL helps or hurts?”
compared to what?
are you asking if you take the same grades but compare a BTL to a “more mainstream pre-law degree,” Then obviously the BTL hurts. (Do yo uhave a hava amina otherwise?)On the other hand are yo u asking if a BTL helps compared to nothing or a diploma you type up on microsoft word , then obviosuly it helps and people HAVE gone to Law schools ( even prestigious ones) with a BTL
Try Mizrachi books, though I doubt he has one, he might be able to point you in the right direction
No Chassidim are often makpid on iit, and occasionly even delay a wedding if it wont be possible (though I haven’t heard of this delay recently)
I havent seen it a yeshivish weddings though“We are going to be paying out your 55000 over twelve moths so instead of 56$ an hour it’s going to say 42$ an hour.
No big deal it’s the same 55000$ a year.”No that isnt right if 55,000 is split over 12 months or 10 months it is the same 56 an hour.
You throw in as an afterthought, (as the op did which is what made it hard to understand) “Oh but by the way you will need to work two weeks in the summer to keep your job.”
But that isnt an afterthought at all, THAT is the only change. the change 10 months to 12 months isnt really a change, this line: “In the past, (the hourly) wages were paid over 10 months, this year the same amount was divided over 12 months” is hard to understand.UB
“Is this called slavery or stam theft?”
Neither, it is called a pay cut. While upsetting, I’m not sure why you would think the Government would careCTrebbe
“… spoken by low-class ignoramuses who could care less what they sound like…”Yes ! I love it You win the internet today.
which brings me to Ubiquitin’s Law of the internet:
when the thrust of an argument is directed against criticizing, other’s grammar, it is a near certainty that said criticism will contain at least one grammatical error.
“Imagine you worked with people that kept saying incorrect things about Jews.”
What are you talking about?
Are you saying there is something incorrect about saying “Eretz Yisroel” over “Israel” ?
“Till then I’ll point out every single meshugas.”
YO pointing these out, doesn’t win any arguments. they make you seem so insecure.
why are you so obsessed with trivial things call it “Israel” wear whatever you ant on your head. YOU care more than any body I’ve metyou ask “I have to somehow believe that when Satmar was created less than a century ago, they magically knew better than the Bet Yosef? Rambam?”
NO!! who asked you to believe that? If you want chasidishe shechita, go for it if you dont, dont.
(Of course if you want to know what it is, ask, learning new things is always good but that isnt what uou did)
In short, why are you so insecure? be proud of your heritage
“Joseph could be anyone. Any of us.”
Joseph is all of us. We all have an inner Joseph telling us to do foolish things. for example that urge to touch a wall that says “wet paint” is our inner Joseph talking.
“The way to do it is to go to sleep for 4 hours after alois”
Its not so pashut that you can go to sleep after Alos,
YO
“Nah, I think people say EY to “sound frum”. ”
Yep. so what?
YO
“This is a very shallow, chitoniusdik, neurotic club, no?”Again, and we are going in circles, if you feel that way don’t join. Why do you care.
Do you think the club members care that you think they are ” very shallow, chitoniusdik, neurotic” why do you care that they think you aren’t “frummer”?
Yo
“In other words, what social pressures are causing him to doubt his previous appellation of the country?”He joined a new club. To be a full fledged member there’s a uniform, a secret language etc. He wants to be s member so the BT wears the velvet yarmulka and says Eretz Yisroel.
I don’t get the problem.
If you want to be a member you can do these things too.If you don’t want to be a member so dont do your own thing and let us have our club
Rational
I’m not sure what you are saying keneged does mean “against” see Rashi to “ezer kinegdo”Against has multiple definitions including facing which is the sense that it is meant here, though perhaps corresponding would be a better word choice
YO
Hi, you’ve been asking variations of this question a bit lately. Please help me understand, you ask “What’s wrong with just saying “My cousin lives in Israel”.”
Now obviously there is nothing wrong. You seem upset that it isnt the “frummer” thing to do.
so here is my question
do you care what other people think, ie do you have a desire to conform to arbitrary labels of “frummer” behavior?
If so, then follow them call it shul, call it Erez yisorel. Etc
If you dont care , then who cares , if others consider it not “frummer”?In short I dont understand caring that other consider it not as frum, but not carign enough to call it Eretz yisorel. Can you please enlighten me
One of my Rebbeim would say its easy to be frummer, it is far harder to be frum.
rational
Thanks a ton!YO
sure!Or,
it is just a colloquial expression, that doesn’t technically make sense . Language is peppered with countless examples. ( Take a bath, redundancies like ATM machine PIN number)
take your pick of the above, whichever helps you sleep better
Though hopefully nobody greets you with a “Good/gut Yontiff” since I’ll bet that one will really make your head spin, and I dont even have a vertel to explain why “yom-tov” became yontiff (does anybody?)
and on top of that all if you are a literalist and translate Yom Tov/ Yontiff as “good day” then if you were to be wished “gut Yontiff” they would be saying “good good day”
oh boywishing you and your family a Great yontif (oops)
and as the the old joke (?) goes if you meet the pope, on Shavuos be sure to greet him with a hearty “good Yontiff pontif”
Of course
Example both a mezuza and sefer Torah have kedusha, yet they are not equal.
both Tefilin shel yad and shel rosh have kedusha, but again not equal. Practically this has reclassification, for example starps for tefilin shel yad can be elevated to shel rosh but not the reverse. Maalin bekodehs velo moridin, we go up in levels of kedusha – holiness but not down
YO
“I don’t think there’s any excuse for soaking poorly like that”what was your excuse for this “You wanna keep Ashkenaz Havara” ?
“What does Shalos Seudos even mean? Three meals . But you’re trying to say Third Meal. Never understood that.”
Ask and you shall receive?
There is a classic vort I believe attributed to the Minchas Elazar, that by eating the third meal, you get schar for all three, hence “shalosh Seudos”. how so? Eating a Friday night mea, isnt necessarily done lekavod Shabbos, we eat supper every day. similarly the second meal, we eat lunch every day. However a third meal, especially on a short afternoon, THAT is unusual, most of u s dont sit down to wash have a meal 3 hours after lunch. by doing so we get credit for all three meals, as this shows out eating is (and was) lekavod Shabbos .Seriously though, the question is a bit silly. expressions dont always “make sense” my kid asks “why do you say take a bath, where do you take it?” Language often has quirks that arent “logical” per se
rational
do you have an example where יתד operates in the masculine?Cutting hair is kefira, If Hashem wanted people with short hair, He would have made us that way
midwesterner
thanks, though וּתְקַעְתִּ֥יו יָתֵ֖ד בְּמָק֣וֹם נֶאֱמָ֑ן וְהָיָ֛ה לְכִסֵּ֥א כָב֖וֹד לְבֵ֥ית אָבִֽיו׃, (courtesy of sefaria) in that passuk the “place” is neeman, not the “yated”
YO
“…These are NOT words. …You wanna keep …”
congrats you win the internet for today!“Is Sefaria kosher to use?”
without question, yes
Seems like a wrong, and counterproductive idea.
Joseph asked, regarding the OP
“Who is “pushing” his name?”These guys:
“Why is this acceptable? ”
what is the problem? , do you have trouble understanding any of those words? do you think there was anyone ever who was ever genuinely confused ” Taleisim what on Earth are those? Oh Talisos”
(My favorite is Yated Neman, which should be Yased Nemanah See Devarim 23:14 וְיָתֵ֛ד תִּהְיֶ֥ה לְךָ֖ עַל־אֲזֵנֶ֑ךָ)
“It might be a just a little bit less holy than using www. though.”
and there I thought the beta version is holier
“It was so soon after that one would think that they would have known EXACTLY what occurred.”
Why would you think that? Human memory is very faulty , People easily forget details year to year
Love it!
Though not as much as I love Sefaria and Hebrew books
both are quite holy“that line is in my quote”
yowza thats embarrassing
I have no idea how I missed that. I will go eat some humble pie nowI am sorry for accusing you of willful omission
I got caught up in what seemed to me to be an absurd discussion (namely whether English has the same connection to Jews as yiddish does, which is the gist of this thread for it to have any relevance ) and somehow missed that line.
KY
“And I’m the one with the English comprehension issues”Lol, yes!
You skipped the second definition. (intentionally? Or just poor research? which way would dan lekaf zechus want me to assume, I’m sorry if I erred in my previous assumption when you left off some of my explanantion)
2. restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned.“I’d really appreciate if you could quote the exact lines from your post that I maliciously left out.”
sure: “but as a group it was spoken by the am hanivchar, it is unquestionably a Jewish language, the jews being a holy people, we have consecrated it making it holy ”
THAT is the main point. Yiddish is holy because it is a JEWISH language, not because it was the language that just happened to be spoken by Jews. This was clarified over an over throughout that long silly thread.
Or as Joseph put it IT was the primary and exclusive language of Jews.Now reasonable people can argue that that doesn’t make it “holy” (as Ive acknowledged several times, I’m not quite clear on what holy means, and am using “holy” perhaps a bit looser than its strict meaning )
What is a bit loony to debate, as we seem to be, as to whether there is something “Jewish” about Yiddish, that just isnt true with English.
Make no mistake, I prefer loony discussions, they are way more fun, than things we can “Agree to disagree on” like as to whether Vanilla or choclate is better, those arguments bore me. I much prefer arguments as to whether vanilla ice cream is white or whether Yiddish is more of a Jewish language than EnglishKy
A few things, first of all as an aside your history is a bit shaky and at any rate 13 century English isn’t similar to ours (see the Yiddish thread for an example)
Secondly and more importantly you quote joseph
“Yiddish is holy by virtue of it being the primary and exclusive language of Jews for over a thousand years. ”When you have a moment look up “exclusive” you don’t seem to know what it means
At least this part of your post “Maybe I have difficulty with the holy English language, ” is correct.You also cut my post short as I put in the same limitation as Joseph, that you failed to copy.
So in your one post you displayed your ignorance of history, and of English as well as your dishonesty
Great stuffKY
“Like the holiness of a man made language.”
Whoa, forget the less exciting question from Aramaic., there is a much more interesting chidush here. Namely that something man-made cant have kedusha!
wow!
and I have a marei makom for it: Its a beferish coffee room post.KY
“In a different thread, some posters posited, that Yiddish became a holy language, by dint of the fact that it has a long history of being spoken by Jews and / because much Torah has been communicated through it.”You should reread that thread. Laskern is closer. The argument there was NOT (As was pointed out numerous times) that it is holy because it was “spoken by Jews”
and besides, as you point out even if that WAS the argument, the English comparison, still falls flat “although obviously not the same history.”
So clearly that can’t be the point of this game. Its not nice to interpret someone else’s post as saying something so silly.I’ll keep trying :
Is Somali holy?It is an Afroasiatic language belonging to the Cushitic branch.
It is the second most widely spoken Cushitic language after Oromo.
As of 2013, it is also one of the featured languages available on Google Translate.ACS
I agree! can we revive your excellent torah topic thread on wars starting or ending every 28 years ?
That was much more productive
Is Burmese holy?
It is a is a tonal, pitch-register, and syllable-timed language.
It is belongs to the Southern Burmish branch of the Sino-Tibetan languages.
it is an official language of Myanmar and the language of the Bamar people.
Am I playing this game right? I’m not so sure I understand it.
“I said instead of teaching five or six year olds their Chumash into Yiddish, why don’t we use אונקלוס and teach it in Aramaic.”
Ah, so this question (unlike your other one) I DO know the answer to: ווייל אזוי האט מען געפירט אין די היים
YO
“I am not arguing its importance in Jewish culture and history, but holiness”Hainu hach (as I clarified several times.)
Now you get it.KY
“Why is there no push for Aramaic”
Again, I don’t know.“I’d be willing to provide the translation from this old sefer . For free. It’s very accurate Aramaic. “It’s called אונקלוס.”
Sooooo, this may surprise you, but to this very day many Orthodox Jews recite this Aramaic translation weekly!
TC
I took your advice, Bereishis Rabbah 74:14
וַיִּקְרָא לוֹ לָבָן יְגַר שָׂהֲדוּתָא , אָמַר רַבִּי שְׁמוּאֵל בַּר נַחְמָן אַל יְהֵא לָשׁוֹן פַּרְסִי הַזֶּה קַל בְּעֵינֶיךָ, שֶׁבַּתּוֹרָה בַּנְּבִיאִים בַּכְּתוּבִים מָצִינוּ שֶׁהַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא חוֹלֵק לוֹ כָּבוֹדA poster here said ” but that doesn’t make Aramaic holy”
Aramaic is in fact holy (again, as mentioned several times in this thread, I am not clear as to what “holy ” means, but clearly There is something special? sacred? important? holy? about Aramaic.) As the medrash warns, don’t take it lightly .“This continuing back and forth about holiness of Yiddish is insulting and degrading to the concept of Kedusha (holiness) ”
I agree, it is also insulting and degrading to the holiness of Yiddish,
And this discussion is getting repetitive. with absolutely nothing constructive being added at this point,This is pretty clear, josph put it very succinctly, I elaborated perhaps to a fault,
At this point, Kol hamosif goreah, if there is any particular point you have trouble with I’d be happy to try to clarify
but repeating “Done It is holy” “no its not” “Yes it is” Is not my style