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KY
“I keep going back to punishment because that was my original question.”But you only asked that after my question.
We will get to punishment. Don’t worry, but in some of your posts you offer (I assume inadvertently) mixed messages on the first step eg “But my point is that the western horror attached to “meanes ” seems to be completely missing from the Torah View.” and “So is it wrong for a non Jew to do such a thing? Of course. Just like its wrong for him to spit in someone’s face.”
Are you saying being meanes is wrong like “to spit in someones’s face”
“Ubiq your second post was posted before I had a chance to respond but I think I responded to it”
You did. you responded that you are unfamiliar with the Gemara, which I find surprising, though I’d have to apologize for criticizing your thinking skills. You simply are unaware of the Gemara
“”Mitzvos ? No I’m not familiar with it. Help me out””
Of course! Rashi bereishins 26:5 (I know how much you like chapter and verse) actullay says BY definition “mitzvos” are these self understood commands “מצותי. דְּבָרִים שֶׁאִלּוּ לֹא נִכְתְּבוּ רְאוּיִן הֵם לְהִצְטַוּוֹת, כְּגוֹן גֶּזֶל וּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים: ”
So I ask you again. Would you say a rule againt being meanes someone is something you’d need to be told? Or is it self understood?
One comment of yours surprised me. “As far as a king, absolutely but remember for most of our history we haven’t had a king and it is actually looked down upon us when we asked for one. So that can’t really be the utopian ideal of taking care of issues”
Are you not aware that “som tasim aleicha melech” is a mitzvah? I don’t understand why you dismiss this so quickly
Ky
Let’s take it one step at a time. We will get to punishment.
I asked you a question.
Ok 2.1. Are you familiar with the chazal that there are issurim we would know without the Torah.
2. Do you agree that being meanes someone is something thst falls into that category?
“please find out from him, chapter and verse, the punishment for a non Jew being meanes a non Jewish woman, and the source for special treatment (ie extra severity ) of a molester.”
Of course! But first let’s think through this. (though I’m not sure why you keep switching to “punishment” I said that it was wrong)
Having gone to a mainstream yeshiva, you must have encountered the chazal that there are mitzvos known to man without the Torah. It’s a gemara, Rashi brings it in Chumash. Are you familiar with this? Do you need chapter and verse.?
Now while I assume you encountered said chazal. It seems that you haven’t thought much about it (no fault of yours. what kind of self respecting yeshiva guy sounds time on Chumash or agadata we read it say that’s nice and simple and move on).
But take a second and absorb the above. There are some acts so abhorent that even without the Torah telling us we would know it’s wrong. (some say this is how goyim are to know all of their mitzvos) Surely, you can grant that being meanes someone falls into that category.
If you can’t grant that. then well, whether you give it weight or not, “that’s perverse thought ” and sadly I’m not sure we can continue since we must be speaking different languagesThus it is wrong for a goy to be meanes someone (you seem to indicate that you weren’t sure about this, and you switch my question to punishment let’s stick to the above for a moment)
Again, although it doesn’t technically violate any of the sheva mitzvos it is wrong/bad/wicked/sinfull for a guy to do that.
With me so far?
KY
so I have this right,
In you view according to “Torah morals” tm There should be no punishment for molesting a child (“Depends what you mean by molesting.” you know what I mean) , you’re not quite sure if it is wrong for a goy to be meanes a woman (if not codified by them) . do I have your position correct?(As an aside my Rav asked me to ask you if you went to Yeshiva, he says its impossible to believe that someone who went through the yeshiva system can have such a perverse view of Torah This is a long standing debate I have with him that modern Yeshiva education stifles critical thinking. This post of yours (if I have your position correct, and if you went to yeshiva) would be a perfect example
KY
you are right regarding the discussion there. (I asked a confused individual who thought if something is’nt explicitly mentioned as assur then it wasn’t I asked him if that meant it was ok for a goy to be meanes an unmarried woman, he didint answer and you threw in this question though I’m not sure the relevance there (and thats what I “responded” there).You seem to be making a similar mistake here.
A few questions if you don’t mindIs it ok for a goy to be meanes an unmarried woman?
whats the punishment for molesting a child?
What the punishment for killing someone without eidim?Another obvious mistake is this one “Yet from the embarrassment angle, they are both the same.” Obviously you dont mean that (I hope)
Also I’m not sure what this is doing on this thread.
This was the original thread https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/waiters-finger-was-in-my-my-soup“As a test, I’ll repeat a question I asked a while ago on a different thread, which got no answer there.
What should be the punishment for someone who is מאנס a woman who was previously married and is now divorced”I’m confused. That was my question.
Joseph
apologies If i’m being unclear
“you were certain I was insincere”
– correct. and I still am certain (90% certain) that you dont really believe that.This does not negate “Of course people would agree with that extreme position.”
which is also true.
Of course SOME people believe that. I did not mean to imply that all 7.58 billion on the planet beelive women suffrage should be continued. There are all sorts of people out there with all sorts of kooky ideas.Just having interacted with you for several years now, and watched you in action for years longer I do not think you are one of those people.
Joseph
“He was sure no one, really no one, would agree with me on that “extreme” position. ”i’m not sure what gave you that impression. Of course people would agree with that extreme position. I ve met several.
“can someone who is bittul zman not advocate that people not be bitul zman or at least do so less?”\
while not addressed to me allow me to answer:
it depends. If said person is trying to avoid bittul zman, he is making an effort to work at it.. Then I agree he doesnt have to be perfect to point out problems in others
If however he says something along the lines of “Bitul zman is wrong I do it all the time and dont plan on changing but you should stop” Then he is insincere. Or in internet lingo a “troll”also your defintion of a troll “a troll, by definition, is posting insincere (and that’s the key) positions. ”
Isnt true either see NC’s definitive listing of known troll species. not all post insincere positionsuser
“And just to explain, the reason I usually say whether or not I read all the comments is to put context on my comment, just in case it was already addressed or the convo has taken a turn you’ll know what I’m talking about.”Yes I got that.
you are till stuck on Poe’s Law the conversation has long since moved on (Poe’s Law was last mentioned in May) . And No I don’t know what you are talking about So you tactic of Jumping in mid conversation and sticking in that caveat, did not help and just makes you sound foolish.
Read the thread (it isnt long, though it is boring) and THEN if you think you have something to contribute feel free to join in.Yeshivish
“I agree with Joseph that woman’s suffrage should be repealed.”
Mazel Tov! shkoyach. There is another thread on that topic. that isnt the discussion here.CA
“But I wouldn’t be surprised if they held “it should have never been started””
Oh me neither, but that isnt the discussion.
As to the issue we ARE discussing , you said “No” So we are in perfect agreement.
“And I think that in essence it what joe was getting at, it just makes the thread more controversial the way joe worded it”
nope, He insisted (on that thread) that he meant it the way he wrote it, which you concede is NOT the standard charedi view today.
user 176
“Lol… I guess this thread is the exception?”
Nopeand FYI I only read until about the middle of your comment
CA
I’m not sure about that I have heard countless “non-PC” views from my Reeebeim over the years. Many probably more “non-PC” than taking away the right to vote. I’m doubtful that on THIS issue there is some secret cabal to hide it from the hamoin am, but have Joseph give over the secretive Torah True view via the coffee room.“In other words if you asked them 200 years ago they wouldn’t be afraid of saying no”
I’m not sure the relevance. Yes if I asked them 200 or even 100 years ago they may have opposed woman’s suffrage. But that isnt the discussion at hand.
CA a simple question:. do you think the mainstream view among “Rebbeim in Litvish yeshivos” is that “women’s suffrage must end” ?
Randomex
I’m not saying it is incorrect (although I do think so) we can play the “agadata game” where you bring R’ Akiva saying how he longed t o fulfill being mikayim bechol nafshecha, and I’ll brin the agadata of Moshe Rabbeinu having seen both R’ Akiva;s end (menachos 29b) and AAron hakoein longed for Aron hakohen ‘s.
There is a longer thread on this very point and I think reasonable people can disagree
It may be the correct view, but it is not the standard chareidi view in my experience. Has your perception been different?
Joseph
I am certain he was exaggerating.
Definitely not “everything ” Even if you convinced me that it is a standard view among “Rebbeim in Litvish yeshivos ” that ” women’s suffrage must end” And that somehow in all my years I never encountered this view, you definitely couldn’t convince me that many “Rebbeim in in Litvish yeshivo” think that “What if I don’t want to buy back the chometz from the goy? I should be able to force him to keep it, and pay, just as he has the right to elect to keep it even if that wasn’t my expectation.”
furthermore even, you agree that he was exaggerating. surely you concede that SOME of his rabbeim would oppose they ver yexistence of “Joseph” spedning so much time on online forums. Are you telling me you think ALL ” “Rebbeim in in Litvish yeshivos” Are ok with incessant commenting on YWN ?
“but I have had Rebbeim who would have agreed with him on everything”
I have not.
I have spent my life in charedi environments have spoken to dozens of mainstream chatredi Rabbonim, rosehi yeshivos, and have never met anyone who thought women’s suffrage must end , that we should hope to die al kiddush Hashem, who didn’t understand how mechiras chometz works (and who needed it explained year after year asking the same question as if it hasnt been discussed before).There are some opinions like “Calling the police/ticket maids on someone blocking your driveway is mesira.” or That giving presents is chukas hagoy which are not normative charedi views among those Ive met or know other than some Am haaratzim who thought those were normative charedi opinons so they repeated them (of course once pointed out why they are mistaken, and they still harbor those am haratzos-dik views It is safe to assume they are trolling)
NC
(I just saw this comment now)
“I believe that what Joseph reveals on the CR is that the modern orthodox are amazed that Chareidim exist to the degree that they have to try to explain it away as “trolling.” ”Yes, some people do do that . and I agree with your general sentiment. Though I dont think all of Joseph’s comments fall into that category. While I disagree with Joseph on many things eg Zionism,. I didnt use those examples, since while I disagree with him. I have met people with those views.
“the raid on Entebbe took place on 6 Tammuz, when Yoni Netenyahu was killed, but it certainly didn’t take place on or near water.”
Of course it did! Entebbe sits on lake Victoria!
“Every year there are too many unusual tragedies that take place during summer vacation R”L.”
so true. there are also tragedies that take place during the year R”L. In fact MORE tragedies occur during the year than during the summer. Maybe we should extend Summer vacation over the entire year
GH
what are you talking about?
Do you think a brain surgeon has a sole right to perform a specific surgery. and anyone who performs the same surgery has stolen from him?
Otherwise what is the connection?
Akuperma
“Also when the music is initially sold the buyer agrees not to redistribute it”The problem though (As with the aderes clause mentioned above) is what if I violate it. Ok I violated the term of the sale, normally that means that the sale is void. do you think my local music store would accept that return “Here I feel terrible but I violated the terms of the sale and made a copy here is the cd back, can I please have my money, again I’m sorry”
What do you imagine the store saying ?Jospeh
” What mistreatment? ”
Here is an example : ” they never should have been allowed in.”
You are of course not alone in that sentiment. This view is pervasive and isn’t very nice, is it?
And THAT dear friend is the real elephant in the room.Of course your line “And unhindered and unmolested ever since they entered the country” isnt true at all. Though before wasting our time with sources. who would you trust? The Ethiopians themselves? any particular news source that you find trustworthy ? Is J post acceptable?
Ash
“So mods, can we close the thread?”
could you please help me understand why?
You acknowledge “The bickering here is fun” Why not fargin others some fun?
“The elephant in the room is that the blacks are rioting,…”
thats not the elephant in the room. That is the subject at hand that (almosT?) nobody is denying defending or ignoring
The elephant in the room is the years of mistreatment these people suffered that fed this pent up rage that finally exploded in the unacceptable violence we see today
DY
thanks for the plugUm absolutely Joseph
Your non-religious coworker’s daughter seems to have mental disabilities so severe, that she won’t even eat! Getting her to eat is paramount and doche BOTH Shabbos and Kashrus. Oh can imagine how emotional her father must be.
Baruch Hashem, what a nes.what is her name so that we can daven for her continued improvement
KY
here to help!
1) People dont expect better from them. Many here (not me don’t worry) expect Charediim who claim to follow the Torah to behave as such, when they don’t, they are shocked and call it out. (You won’t find such comments from me, since I am not shocked and do not expect chareidim to behave normally)
2) (Similar to 1) Chareidim look like Frum Jews, thus when they don’t behave it creates a חילול ה. Most of these protesting Ethiopians do not dress like Orthodox Jews, thus the חילול ה aspect is mitigated.
3) nobody is defending the Ethiopians, that which is obvious doesn’t need to be said. but surprising as it may be there are some here who support the evil Chareidi looking protesters , thus causing others to be moche leshem shomayim
hope these reasons help. They are just guesses I am not one of the “worriers” you mention
I also hope you finally go t some clarity on the difference between doing things with and without permission.Joseph
either ZD’s or balebos’s excellent responses would work in your scenario as well
DY
“Was that this guy’s book?”
It didint say (In the Meged, he often leaves out specific details) but when I heard the story from R’ Shurkin, he implied quite strongly that it was Hadras Panim Zaken.
(I don’t have it in front of me so this is from memory)
Miriamson
“See Meged Givos Olam (vol. 1, p. 96) where Rav Shurkin writes that ”did you also see the story where R’ shurkin writes that someone left a book assuring shaving on R’ Moshe’s shtender. R’ Moshe picked it up looked at one page, shook his head in disagreement, looked at another page, did the same, finally looked at a third page and tossed it off to the side .
Or did you skip that story since it doesn’t fit your krum narrative?
Joseph
“Surely those that shave will never permit an air conditioner to be set to go on or off during Shabbos.”Mah inyan shmita eitzel har Sinai?
Is there some sort of heikish between shaving and timers?KY
“why do only some cars bother you when they block your driveway and not others”Again because they had permission.
” and you’d be OK with it because he asked permission, but an hour later you get mad at someone who parked and went to Daven but didn’t ask permission, I’d think your crazy.”
Ah but thats not crazy at all. You see when someone asks permission, part of my letting him is getting his number so that If I need the driveway (or if he “forgets” and his mincha minyan turns into a mincha plus lunch plus a “quick ” meeting and a “few” “quick” errands, even if the guy is blocking my driveway for Yom Kippur Mincha, it cant possibly take more than 2 hours!) I can call him and he’ll come move it ASAP. Whether he is at minyan or at the grocery is no difference to me as long as he follows the procedure
“When someone blocks my driveway and I don’t get mad ואהבת לרעך”
That is truly wonderful. You get a big pat on the back, and a big sticker (and even bigger one in oilam haemes) but this doesn’t really have bearing on the conversation. ITs nice that you dont get mad, but it is still wrong for the person to block it (unless he knows that it is you and you dont mind which is as if he has permission, incidently do you mind sharing your address? (kidding))“He can die from medical incompetence ”
Lol, and in this scenario the phones don’t work and they cant reach out to Columbia for guidance.
You are right, I looked into it and there is a spike in death rates on Days of parades because people with imaginary medical conditions that are so complicated that only Columbia can possibly stabilize them for a day cant get to Columbia. Of course Columbia’s phone lines get jammed as part of this huge influx of exotic emergencies that take place tying up their phone lines. (sounds about as real as the imaginary driveway in Brooklyn whose owner doesnt mind when people block it)Seriously, I just notified Hatzolah to plan even for this imaginary eventuality by noting that the tunnel, Manhattan bridge, Brooklyn bridge are all open, so they can still get to Columbia , I would recommend the tunnel, to the WEst side, avoiding all marathon runners completely. all the way up to Columbia. Marathon will be Nov 20. See how great it is to plan ahead of time!
ZD
“They cannot block you from entering,”So you agree.
KY
“So the driver knows it will take him hours to get to Columbia hospital instead of forty minutes
Big help that permit was.”Of course it s a huge help, the ambulance driver knows not to try to go to Columbia that day and will find out if there are any hospitals in Brooklyn that are open that day
“i deal with it”
I deal with it too. I call 311, and expect them to do the same (though I wont block a driveway even if it means paying $35 for alternate side ticket)“its called ואהבת לרעך כמוך”
I wouldn’t block their driveway. its called ואהבת לרעך כמוך.
At any rate though if you give permission then veiter, its similar to the parade and not protest. which is exactly my point.“IM not changing the op i am the author”
you are. the words are still there “What’s the difference between protests and parades”
Are you clear on the difference or still confused?Also, you havent answered my question:
If you block my driveway, Do you think this is a reasonable response:
“well you let Chaim block it when he did xyz, clearly having your driveway blocked doesn’t bother you, so I can block it for reasons important to me”KY
“But when a הכנסת ספר תורה blocks the street without a permit, I don’t call them חיות, because I personally connect with the event so I personally don’t begrudge what their doing.”So I, (and I asume those posters who wrote the difference is permission) do. It is wrong to close of streets to traffic without permission period.
for Hachnosos sefer Torah, block party, protest or parade of any kind.“When the gay pride parade blocks my street with a permit, I personally curse them out, even though they are legally correct.
That’s what I’m addressing here”Except that isnt what you said. I oppose the message behind that parade, yet support thuir right to parade wit h(and only with) a permit. I support hachnasos sefer torah but oppose them when done without permission.
there is no comparison between the protests in Yerushalayim and parades. (which was your OP question)
“You said it beautifully”
thanks! I am quite proud of our driveway analogy, I’m not sure why you are still struggling with this“…they made a vort you would probably be OK if I blocked your driveway even if I only know your neighbor and not you”
Lol! you obviously don,t live in NY. No I would be very upset if they didn’t say anything or leave a note of some sort.“So the reason the protesters bother you is because you don’t agree with their cause!!”
Even if true that is not the subject at hand. Yo u are free to chaneg the subject of course. but be clear that Your OP has been answered and that yo understand the difference between protests and paradesreread the OP: “What’s the difference between protests and parades”
Simple question: If you block my driveway, Do you think this is a reasonable response:
“well you let Chaim block it when he did xyz, clearly having your driveway blocked doesn’t bother you, so I can block it for reasons important to me”
?Look KY
you are mixing up two issues.You can argue that stopping leydig-geirs from doing something productive with their lives is an important cause and warrants blocking traffic including ambulances even without permission.
However that is not the subject of this thread.This thread is about “Why is it OK to block off huge traffic arteries to make a parade, but when people protest a ” perceived “travesty or injustice, they get tremendous condemnation.”
THAT is what is being addressed. I (and others) are explaing the difference between permission and non-permission (note: not between parades and protests. parades are wrong without our permission and protests are fine with going through the proper channels, and yes there are of course times occasionally without going through the proper channels, but THOse arent justified because parades are ok)
You throw in ““All it takes is a phone call and a few bucks.”” but this is the whole distiction.
You ramble on about protests and the point of them. And you may even be right, I agree that protests occasionally justify inconveniencing others.
But they arent comparable to parades. Which is the theme of this thread.Lets go back to my excellent driveway mashal.
1) We agree that blocking my driveway is wrong.
2) Now of course we agree that if you have permission (from me or anyone authorized to give permission like YOUR neighbor (not quite sure how he got that power but you say he did)) then you can block my driveway
3) We also agree (I assume) that in certain emergencies (eg an ambulance tending to my neighbor) blocking the driveway is also justified.
(let me know if you disagree with any of the above 3 points)Now You want to block my driveway for something you deem important. picking up lunch, catching minyan, or whatever the case may be. Your justification for blocking it makes zero sense if you say “well you (or your representative) let Chaim block it when he dropped off a package (ie # 2), clearly having your driveway blocked doesn’t bother you, so Ican block it for reasons important to me” This makes zero sense, and is the question you asked in your OP.
On the other hand saying “Well in an emergency blocking your driveway is ok (#3) and this was an emergency because xyz…” THAT would make sense. OF course it would shift the discussion to how important the emergency is. But that is NOT the subject of this thread
KY
“How does that solve the issue of blocking ambulances???”
Because they know ahead of time. Do you think ambulances are sitting there sirens blaring waiting for the parade to pass?
Moreover, if that were to happen, do you think the parade would keep on parading or pause to let them through?
(Though doubt his has happened, since as mentioned with permission it is announced beforehand)“All it takes is a phone call and a few bucks.”
ding ding ding. Write this in bold letters, since you seem to have trouble with this simple point.
Nailed it! this is the key. Read it over and over until you absorb it
Make a phone call, get permission from our representatives (ie from us similar to the driveway analogy) and block all the streets you want for any reason you want .that VERY SAME block part is wrong if they just wake up one morning and decide to block the the street for a party.
KY
“I can’t block your driveway but if I ask MY neighbor permission then I could?”Absolutely! Assuming he is my representative, and he is appointed to be in charge of driveway blocking, absolutely you can with his permission. Why on earth would you think otherwise?
“Your beautiful mashAl illustrates the point so nicely.”
thanks! it really does.“And if the current protestors got permission, it would be perfectly fine for them to be snarling traffic all around”
Yes this isn’t complicated. and it is quite clear, Though your tone seems needlessly snarky as if you still don’t quite get this simple distinction
Its wrong of you to block my driveway. Aye when my friend comes to visit he blocks it? why the double standard?
He has permission.
“But without that permission, no matter how urgent the cause, it’s not OK.”
herein lies the problem, who decides what is an urgent cause ? I think the fact that my corner pizza store started putting pineapple on pizza is urgent, do you think I should be allowed to be ” snarling traffic all around” ?
There is a process we have elected officials we entrust to make thsi decisions, it isnt practical to take a poll every time an issue comes up, this is called representative government. If you feel strongly about an issue, elect politicians to represent you, who support parading for Israel, protesting drafting ledyggeyers, or who oppose pineapple on pizza, as the case may be. But just because YOU dont’ like (or do like) something doesn’t mean you can block traffic or even block my driveway without going through the proper channels
KY
“Why is it OK to block off huge traffic arteries to make a parade, but when people protest a ” perceived “travesty or injustice, they get tremendous condemnation.”The difference isnt between a parade and protest. The difference is permission and no permission.
CtRebbe
“Ubiquitin- Perhaps it is a pointless argument…”so don’t argue, You asked a question:
“Can anyone explain the objective of having speeches in Yiddish at the siyum hashas for Daf yomi in America?”you have received several answers:
1) A large percentage of Klal Yisroel, Bnei Torah, Orthodox Jews, speak Yiddish as their first language.
2) Even for those who it isnt their primary language, as several posters have attested, most understand Yiddish
3) Tradition!
4) Furthermore, to many chasidim especially Hungarians there is an issur the first of the takanos michalovityz reads “אסור לדרוש דרשה בלשון אומות העולם”
5) Agudas Yisroel hosts the siyum. At the head of Agudah sit the chassidish Rebbe’s and Litvish Rosh Yeshivas. They believe ( right or wrong) that Yiddish is a holy language.These are all fantastic answers. If you want an English only event (to be more inclusive of course) start your own.
“My point was to not be concerned (too much) about the miut sheaino matzui (can’t understand English) ”
Love it! all inn the name of creating a “unifying event ”
There were probably a roughly equal number of Yiddish only and English only speakers (by which I mean those who can understand yiddish) at the Siyum last time.
Avi
“Git, actually a large number of the founders of Aguda were German-speaking ”Lol, I thought you view Yiddish as a form of German, I love how you forget your vitriol, when it doesnt fit your agenda.
Ctrebbe
“when someone gets up and speaks in Yiddish he is essentially saying to those who can’t understand “please pardon me while I ignore you for the next 15 minutes”
Assuming that’s true, I still don’t understand why that is worse than ignoring the Yiddish speakers for 3 hours.
Can you please explain?lakewhut
There is a need, to hose the large crowd of lomdei Troah and those who honor lomdei Torah
don’t forget, this was foreseen millenia ago Megilla 6a.
אלו תראטריות וקרקסיות שבאדום שעתידין שרי יהודה ללמד בהן תורה ברבים
Ashreinu shezachinu lekach
Behaloscha is the perfect week for this thread, as we start a span of parshiyos with klal Yisroel’s constant kvetching.
Its interesting to see how some things don’t changeJoseph Satmar does not, I think neither does chabad, but I a, less familiar with them and their shitos
If Pesach you should as they might be particular about avoiding kitniyos.
Avi
1!. “ugly Americans” Your words
2. Meh. Granted the bulk of conversation should be in a language all understand, but normal people don’t get bent out of shape if for a few minutes “landsmen” converse in their preffered language.
Anyway this whole analogy is faulty. A better example is a table where 2 guests one speaks Hebrew and the other speaks English, and the English speaker insists ALL conversation be in English
3. I dont understand. So do that! is anybody stopping you from hosting an English only (Love that this is somehow more inclusive) event? Go for it. Who is stopping you ?
4. “It probably no longer applies even there as almost no one in Hungary understands Yiddish. ” I already got this psak from Moreinu Harav Zahavasdad shlita and I will no longer yell and shout when my Rabbi speaks in English. That said, (and this may surprie you) but not all chasidim follow your and his esteemed psak. You say “Moreover, takkanot often fall into disuse.” not this one. you will not find a n Eglish speech by an ungarisher chasidus to this dayZD
“As far as the Hungarian Takanah, that probably doesnt apply anymore”
Thats you opinion and for now on I will rely on you and stop yelling at my Rabbi when he speaks in English, but not all necessarily agree with you.
” since most hungrians probably dont speak Yiddish, but rather speak english”
I’m not sure what you mean. Rest assured you will not find a public speech in English in a Satmar, Spink, Viznitz, munkatch etc Shtibel.
“and its not a Hungarians event anyway”
True, but you are forgetting “t is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate,”
Incidentally, I love the logic of: “Lets make this event truly unifying by only speaking the language I understand.” (not a direct quote)
Absolutely fantastic stuff. This might be one of my favorite threadsAvi
“You may think that it is lifnim mishurat hadin but that is because you are an American and assume that really everyone speaks English.”:
No, its because I’m not so sensitive that I have to understand EVERY word that is said amongst themselves. I am mature enough to let them speak among themselves in their own language that they are more comfortable in.
“I could not understand how they knew.”
I guess maybe they could tell from the way you look? (look at your last sentence)YO
“Perhaps a few Yiddish and Hebrew speeches are ok.”huuray! so we agree shalom Al yisroel
now we just need to convince Ct rebbe that #chasidishearsmatter“With all due respect to R’ Yoel of Satmar, he is not the final word on the status of Hebrew. He is entitled to his da’at but it is not binding on all Jews.”
Oh obviously, few if any agree wit hhim on this. But even fewer would say that ““”It’s [ie speaking Hebrew] the most basic thing in being a Jew”Look this conversation is sillier than most of our conversations on yiddish.
Its main reedeeming value is that it really highlights the backwards thinking of the anti-yidishists.
the question was:
“Can anyone explain the objective of having speeches in Yiddish at the siyum hashas for Daf yomi in America?”The answer is really quite straight forward, and was identified by the OP “If it is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate, ” As has been pointed out the majority of attendees DO understand enough Yiddish. While, yes there are many that don’t there are also many that understand only Yiddish.
The most inclusive way to accommodate all is to have speeches in both languages. I get that some here hate yiddish and yiddish speakers (all in the name of achdus of course) but is it really so much to ask to sit there for 10? 15? minutes while a speech is made that others can understand?
(though granted, ideally there would be simultaneous translation on the jumbotrons, which doesn’t seem too complicated to arrange)Furthermore, to many chasidim especially Hungarians there is an issur the first of the takanos michalovityz reads “אסור לדרוש דרשה בלשון אומות העולם” (in Hebrew so you know its serious) . they want to join you although it makes them uncomfortable that the bulk of the speeches violate their takanos, some are willing to join listen to many speeches in English for the sake of achdus, All they ask for in return is some acknowledgment of Yiddish.
IS that really so unreasonable?
(This paragraph is secondary since I’m not sure how many take the takanos seriously but would be satisfied as long as some Yiddish is there, Those who reealy care about the takanos like the Satmar Rebbes won’t be there (partly) due to the fact that the speeches are in English)Oh no, turns out Ubiquitin’s Law of the internet already exists.
It is known as Skitt’s Law “”any post correcting an error in another post will contain at least one error itself” ( which apparently is an online version Hartman’s Law of Prescriptivist Retaliation: “any article or statement about correct grammar, punctuation, or spelling is bound to contain at least one eror”.Which brings me to Ubiquitin’s Law of the internet 2.0: Any clever aphorism has already been stated
Avi
“Ubiquitin, it should be “fewer Latin speakers” as they are counted as individuals”
See, my English is so bad that I can barely get a coherent point across. Do you really want me sitting at a siyum with all the speeches in English?
(as an aside, you satisfy ubiquitin’s law of the internet, as your post contains not one, but 2 typo’s, don’t worry its ok I fully understood you“When I am with Europeans from the same country they speak to each other in Hebrew as a courtesy to me.”
solely in Hebrew? Or primarily?
If primarily, I am in agreement, that is what they should be doing and the siyum hashas in America should primarily be in English.
If solely, that is really lifnei mishuras hadin and not necessary at all, and I have never seen that ever, and knowing many Europeans I am extremely doubtful that that has ever occurred everCTR
1. “Yabia Omer is Jewish but he is not Yiddish”
Um, he absolutely is. He is a yid through and through, true while he seems insistent on highlighting divisions among yidden, while confusingly at the same time insiting that others shouldn’t care about them and he clearly is very insecure about his heritage, He does in fact have a varme yiidish neshama, and is no less a yid than any other yid.2. “I never said our common language is Hebrew”
Nope, my response wasn’t all geared to you. Point 2 was in response to the direct quote cited, from another poster here.3. “However, if you would want to say a dvar Torah at the table to teach and inspire the people at the table I would hope you would say it in a language they understand.”
Though I will still quote a passuk in its original. sure I will then translate it, but I dont think they mind .
More to the point though, Are you suggesting that The speeches ALL be SOLELY in English ignoring the people there who don’t feel comfortable communicating in English? Would YOU invite someone to your house for a meal and then speak to everyone at the table in a foreign language?4. “If it makes them feel like they are part of some elite segment of society”
Nu, so whats so bad if during the siyum Hashas they get to feel like they are apart of some elite segment of society.
Though this isnt the main reason, nobody feels “elite” staring at some latin speaker. the reason they do it is as I explained above.“I do not believe that there are more than a handful of participants who have difficulty with English.”
you believe wrong. When the government wants to highlight the important of vaccinations, guess what language they write their flyers in? when politicians post their campaign posters in boro PArk and williamsburg. guess what language they use?
If Yiddish is acceptable for the government to use in communicating important information to yidden, al achas kama vekama it is appropriate at a Siyum Hashas“Am I in crazy land?”
Based on your bizzare recent questions, yes.“I don’t get how anyone can be “frum” and not speak Hebrew? ”
Hebrew is a 19th century revival movmen. Are you suggesting that centuries of Jews before hand werent Frum?“”It’s the most basic thing in being a Jew”
Pity, the satmar Rebbe Was opposed to the most basic thing in Judaism. who knew?“You learn in Hebrew”
Who does? Lets look at the most frequent passuk וידבר ה‘ אל משה לאמר. take that first word, is it Hebrew? (note I’m not asking if it is similar to modern Hebrew or decipherable to a modern Hebrew speaker) In all of Tanach, I have never come across words for iems I use daily, car computer (of course electricty I did find as obviously Yechezkel was referring to the Kisei hakavod’s electricity).
I did once apply my biblical Hebrew skillls when I needed a new belt. I asked for an אבנט, my quest was unsuccessful.” Plus go to Israel and even in “Chareidi” yeshivas they speak Hebrew.”
A. All? How sure are you?
B. I was under the impression that this conversation was regardingthe American siyum hashas, what does Israeli yeshivos speaking Hebrew havve to do with anthing?“An argument could be made for 1850s Poland or Libya. But not now.”
could you make that argument?
Why is today different?a few points
1) Joseph’s first topic was most on point, vesu lo midi
2) “Our common language is Hebrew. Why arent’t these rabbis speaking Hebrew?”
Why is our common language Hebrew? and since when? I don’t speak Hebrew3) The OP asked “I assume nearly all of the attendees who do speak Yiddish also understand English very well.” you assume incorrectly. As you correctly note “t is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate”
Thus in order to INCLUDE (your word) Yiddish is added. There are not as many only Hebrew speakers at the US Siyum Hashas, if there where of course there would be languages in Hebrew. I’ll bet at Siyum Hashas Languages in south America there are speeches in Spanish and Hebrew, since those or the languages spoke n by attendees there.4) “Would you invite someone to your house for a meal and then speak to everyone at the table in a foreign language?”
Yes! I dont skip benching just because someone at the table doesn’t understand the words. I explain what we will do, give him an English bencher, and go on speaking in Lashon Kodesh. Is this really a strange idea?
d o yo insist on skipping benching (or benching in English) just because someone at the table doesn’t fully understand?5) At Harvard’s graduation (lehavdil) a speech is given in Latin, there are less Latin speakers who attend the Harvard graduation than Yiddish speakers at the Siyum. So why do they do that ? That I can tell you in one word: Tradition!
“would having a BTL in place of a different degree affect my odds of getting intoa school like NYU or columbia? ”
Asked and answered .
Are you really asking if a BTL is equal to a real degree?