ubiquitin

Lol Joseph
“Ubiq, KY adequately answered the questions you posed.”

So shall be written and so shall be done.
Gepaskened.

”
So why is there no punishment you will ask?”

Nope I don’t ask that, I use it as an example where the severity Of an onesh is not indicative of the severity of the aveira.

As you seem to acknowledge later on in your post.

“Much as we saw before, a list of גדולי פוסקי זמננו who say a molester is a רודף due to the ultimate outcome, ”

See? Critical thinking, at first you didn’t seem to acknowledge this.
Are you so sure rape isn’t similar?

“different עונשים for various crimes, clearly states that the more severe crime carries the more severe punishment.”

Does it? How sure are you the severity there is against man vs Hashem

Also what’s worse chilul shabbos or murder?

Joseph

“If that had been true, the halachic punishment would have been far more severe.”

1) mehechi teisi?
2) what is worse turning someone into a zionist or killing him ?
3) I cant help but notice you didn’t answer the question

KY
“the brisker rav says…”

chapter and verse please.

how does that fit wit hthe Rambam in shmoneh perakim perke vav “הענינים המפורסמים אצל כל בני האדם שהם “רעות”: כשפיכות דמים, וגנבה, וגזלה, ואונאה, ולהזיק למי שלא הרע לו, ולגמול רע למיטיב לו, ולבזות אב ואם וכיוצא באלו. והן המצוות שאמרו עליהן החכמים, ז”ל: ‘שאילו לא נכתבו ראויות הן לכתב”

He gfoes on to say not to say “לא יאמר אדם אי אפשי (. . אלא אפשי ומה אעשה אבי שבשמים גזר עלי” doesnt apply to things we know would be wrong.

At any rate though your narrow reading of Rashi, (Gemara yoma really) side steps my point.

HOW would we know such a thing is wrong? (you say “nowhere indicating that we would be chayav” again, patientce we will get to punishment. first we need to settle whether it is wrong. I am not discussing punishment yet.
I assume we agree stealing less than shava peruta is wrong, things can be wrong without punishment. (bidei adam)

“same with that rashi.which btw does not say what you claim at all”

I quoted it verbatim, in its original

“But you only asked that after my question.”
end quote
… really?????”
Yes really. It is a follow up from a previous thread wher I asked my question

unlike you I will actually cite chapter and verse :
It was the thread titled “Waiter’s finger was in my my soup!” page 2 reply number 1718823
you addressed the question to me.
now if you look before that in my replies 1717271, 1716745 and 1716458 (all before yours) I asked my original question that I still havent gotten a striaght answer from you.

Is it wrong for a Goy to be meanes an unmarried woman.

In case you did answer and I missed it do you mind obliging and giving a simple yer or no.
I’m not asking if he is chayiv anything I’m not asking if he gets punished. Just did he do a bad thing ?

“im still waiting for the gemorah you quoted which im not familiar with
and mareh mekomos from your rav”

I never said my Rav had mareh mekomos.
Though relax we have plenty. Torah is perfect dont chas vesholom be worried that somehting is lacking. You are lacking a bit which is why you seem to be so afraid to answer straight forward questions. but together we will get the emes.
but one step at a time.

Again lets settle this simple point. Is it wrong for a goy to be meanes a woman, yes or no.

(forgive me for not replying regarding the king part we will get there but you get lost covering lots of points at once, or maybe its me but I have been asking thsi question several times now and I’m still not sure as to your view or a person being meanes, youve compared it to spitting, said ” the Torah does not view the act with the horror western “civilization ” does.” “OK is a vague word. I’m not sure what the issur would be though”, ” Same as stealing a penny”.)

NC

“Saying the Torah doesn’t prescribe a punishment for something is not the same thing as saying it’s OK”
agreed

“. He clearly isn’t saying it’s OK.”

Its not so clear, he seems to be equivocating in a few posts. and when I ask him outright I havent gotten straight answers . but I will keep trying he came close “Of course. Just like its wrong for him to spit in someone’s face.” Though I’m curious if he actually means that

Ky

Let’s take it one step at a time. We will get to punishment.

I asked you a question.
Ok 2.

1. Are you familiar with the chazal that there are issurim we would know without the Torah.

2. Do you agree that being meanes someone is something thst falls into that category?

KY

so I have this right,
In you view according to “Torah morals” tm There should be no punishment for molesting a child (“Depends what you mean by molesting.” you know what I mean) , you’re not quite sure if it is wrong for a goy to be meanes a woman (if not codified by them) . do I have your position correct?

(As an aside my Rav asked me to ask you if you went to Yeshiva, he says its impossible to believe that someone who went through the yeshiva system can have such a perverse view of Torah This is a long standing debate I have with him that modern Yeshiva education stifles critical thinking. This post of yours (if I have your position correct, and if you went to yeshiva) would be a perfect example

“As a test, I’ll repeat a question I asked a while ago on a different thread, which got no answer there.
What should be the punishment for someone who is מאנס a woman who was previously married and is now divorced”

I’m confused. That was my question.

Joseph
“He was sure no one, really no one, would agree with me on that “extreme” position. ”

i’m not sure what gave you that impression. Of course people would agree with that extreme position. I ve met several.

“can someone who is bittul zman not advocate that people not be bitul zman or at least do so less?”\

while not addressed to me allow me to answer:
it depends. If said person is trying to avoid bittul zman, he is making an effort to work at it.. Then I agree he doesnt have to be perfect to point out problems in others
If however he says something along the lines of “Bitul zman is wrong I do it all the time and dont plan on changing but you should stop” Then he is insincere. Or in internet lingo a “troll”

also your defintion of a troll “a troll, by definition, is posting insincere (and that’s the key) positions. ”
Isnt true either see NC’s definitive listing of known troll species. not all post insincere positions

CA

“But I wouldn’t be surprised if they held “it should have never been started””

Oh me neither, but that isnt the discussion.

As to the issue we ARE discussing , you said “No” So we are in perfect agreement.

“And I think that in essence it what joe was getting at, it just makes the thread more controversial the way joe worded it”

nope, He insisted (on that thread) that he meant it the way he wrote it, which you concede is NOT the standard charedi view today.

user 176
“Lol… I guess this thread is the exception?”
Nope

and FYI I only read until about the middle of your comment

Randomex

I’m not saying it is incorrect (although I do think so) we can play the “agadata game” where you bring R’ Akiva saying how he longed t o fulfill being mikayim bechol nafshecha, and I’ll brin the agadata of Moshe Rabbeinu having seen both R’ Akiva;s end (menachos 29b) and AAron hakoein longed for Aron hakohen ‘s.

There is a longer thread on this very point and I think reasonable people can disagree

It may be the correct view, but it is not the standard chareidi view in my experience. Has your perception been different?

“but I have had Rebbeim who would have agreed with him on everything”

I have not.
I have spent my life in charedi environments have spoken to dozens of mainstream chatredi Rabbonim, rosehi yeshivos, and have never met anyone who thought women’s suffrage must end , that we should hope to die al kiddush Hashem, who didn’t understand how mechiras chometz works (and who needed it explained year after year asking the same question as if it hasnt been discussed before).

There are some opinions like “Calling the police/ticket maids on someone blocking your driveway is mesira.” or That giving presents is chukas hagoy which are not normative charedi views among those Ive met or know other than some Am haaratzim who thought those were normative charedi opinons so they repeated them (of course once pointed out why they are mistaken, and they still harbor those am haratzos-dik views It is safe to assume they are trolling)

NC
(I just saw this comment now)
“I believe that what Joseph reveals on the CR is that the modern orthodox are amazed that Chareidim exist to the degree that they have to try to explain it away as “trolling.” ”

Yes, some people do do that . and I agree with your general sentiment. Though I dont think all of Joseph’s comments fall into that category. While I disagree with Joseph on many things eg Zionism,. I didnt use those examples, since while I disagree with him. I have met people with those views.

GH

what are you talking about?

Do you think a brain surgeon has a sole right to perform a specific surgery. and anyone who performs the same surgery has stolen from him?

Otherwise what is the connection?

Akuperma
“Also when the music is initially sold the buyer agrees not to redistribute it”

The problem though (As with the aderes clause mentioned above) is what if I violate it. Ok I violated the term of the sale, normally that means that the sale is void. do you think my local music store would accept that return “Here I feel terrible but I violated the terms of the sale and made a copy here is the cd back, can I please have my money, again I’m sorry”
What do you imagine the store saying ?

Ash

“So mods, can we close the thread?”

could you please help me understand why?

You acknowledge “The bickering here is fun” Why not fargin others some fun?

Um absolutely Joseph

Your non-religious coworker’s daughter seems to have mental disabilities so severe, that she won’t even eat! Getting her to eat is paramount and doche BOTH Shabbos and Kashrus. Oh can imagine how emotional her father must be.
Baruch Hashem, what a nes.

what is her name so that we can daven for her continued improvement

Joseph

either ZD’s or balebos’s excellent responses would work in your scenario as well

Miriamson
“See Meged Givos Olam (vol. 1, p. 96) where Rav Shurkin writes that ”

did you also see the story where R’ shurkin writes that someone left a book assuring shaving on R’ Moshe’s shtender. R’ Moshe picked it up looked at one page, shook his head in disagreement, looked at another page, did the same, finally looked at a third page and tossed it off to the side .

Or did you skip that story since it doesn’t fit your krum narrative?

KY
“why do only some cars bother you when they block your driveway and not others”

Again because they had permission.

” and you’d be OK with it because he asked permission, but an hour later you get mad at someone who parked and went to Daven but didn’t ask permission, I’d think your crazy.”

Ah but thats not crazy at all. You see when someone asks permission, part of my letting him is getting his number so that If I need the driveway (or if he “forgets” and his mincha minyan turns into a mincha plus lunch plus a “quick ” meeting and a “few” “quick” errands, even if the guy is blocking my driveway for Yom Kippur Mincha, it cant possibly take more than 2 hours!) I can call him and he’ll come move it ASAP. Whether he is at minyan or at the grocery is no difference to me as long as he follows the procedure

“When someone blocks my driveway and I don’t get mad ואהבת לרעך”
That is truly wonderful. You get a big pat on the back, and a big sticker (and even bigger one in oilam haemes) but this doesn’t really have bearing on the conversation. ITs nice that you dont get mad, but it is still wrong for the person to block it (unless he knows that it is you and you dont mind which is as if he has permission, incidently do you mind sharing your address? (kidding))

“He can die from medical incompetence ”
Lol, and in this scenario the phones don’t work and they cant reach out to Columbia for guidance.
You are right, I looked into it and there is a spike in death rates on Days of parades because people with imaginary medical conditions that are so complicated that only Columbia can possibly stabilize them for a day cant get to Columbia. Of course Columbia’s phone lines get jammed as part of this huge influx of exotic emergencies that take place tying up their phone lines. (sounds about as real as the imaginary driveway in Brooklyn whose owner doesnt mind when people block it)

Seriously, I just notified Hatzolah to plan even for this imaginary eventuality by noting that the tunnel, Manhattan bridge, Brooklyn bridge are all open, so they can still get to Columbia , I would recommend the tunnel, to the WEst side, avoiding all marathon runners completely. all the way up to Columbia. Marathon will be Nov 20. See how great it is to plan ahead of time!

“i deal with it”
I deal with it too. I call 311, and expect them to do the same (though I wont block a driveway even if it means paying $35 for alternate side ticket)

“its called ואהבת לרעך כמוך”
I wouldn’t block their driveway. its called ואהבת לרעך כמוך.
At any rate though if you give permission then veiter, its similar to the parade and not protest. which is exactly my point.

“IM not changing the op i am the author”

you are. the words are still there “What’s the difference between protests and parades”
Are you clear on the difference or still confused?

Also, you havent answered my question:
If you block my driveway, Do you think this is a reasonable response:
“well you let Chaim block it when he did xyz, clearly having your driveway blocked doesn’t bother you, so I can block it for reasons important to me”

Look KY
you are mixing up two issues.

You can argue that stopping leydig-geirs from doing something productive with their lives is an important cause and warrants blocking traffic including ambulances even without permission.
However that is not the subject of this thread.

This thread is about “Why is it OK to block off huge traffic arteries to make a parade, but when people protest a ” perceived “travesty or injustice, they get tremendous condemnation.”

THAT is what is being addressed. I (and others) are explaing the difference between permission and non-permission (note: not between parades and protests. parades are wrong without our permission and protests are fine with going through the proper channels, and yes there are of course times occasionally without going through the proper channels, but THOse arent justified because parades are ok)

You throw in ““All it takes is a phone call and a few bucks.”” but this is the whole distiction.

You ramble on about protests and the point of them. And you may even be right, I agree that protests occasionally justify inconveniencing others.
But they arent comparable to parades. Which is the theme of this thread.

Lets go back to my excellent driveway mashal.
1) We agree that blocking my driveway is wrong.
2) Now of course we agree that if you have permission (from me or anyone authorized to give permission like YOUR neighbor (not quite sure how he got that power but you say he did)) then you can block my driveway
3) We also agree (I assume) that in certain emergencies (eg an ambulance tending to my neighbor) blocking the driveway is also justified.
(let me know if you disagree with any of the above 3 points)

Now You want to block my driveway for something you deem important. picking up lunch, catching minyan, or whatever the case may be. Your justification for blocking it makes zero sense if you say “well you (or your representative) let Chaim block it when he dropped off a package (ie # 2), clearly having your driveway blocked doesn’t bother you, so Ican block it for reasons important to me” This makes zero sense, and is the question you asked in your OP.

On the other hand saying “Well in an emergency blocking your driveway is ok (#3) and this was an emergency because xyz…” THAT would make sense. OF course it would shift the discussion to how important the emergency is. But that is NOT the subject of this thread

KY
“I can’t block your driveway but if I ask MY neighbor permission then I could?”

Absolutely! Assuming he is my representative, and he is appointed to be in charge of driveway blocking, absolutely you can with his permission. Why on earth would you think otherwise?

“Your beautiful mashAl illustrates the point so nicely.”
thanks! it really does.

KY
“Why is it OK to block off huge traffic arteries to make a parade, but when people protest a ” perceived “travesty or injustice, they get tremendous condemnation.”

The difference isnt between a parade and protest. The difference is permission and no permission.

“My point was to not be concerned (too much) about the miut sheaino matzui (can’t understand English) ”

Love it! all inn the name of creating a “unifying event ”

There were probably a roughly equal number of Yiddish only and English only speakers (by which I mean those who can understand yiddish) at the Siyum last time.

Avi
“Git, actually a large number of the founders of Aguda were German-speaking ”

Lol, I thought you view Yiddish as a form of German, I love how you forget your vitriol, when it doesnt fit your agenda.

lakewhut

There is a need, to hose the large crowd of lomdei Troah and those who honor lomdei Torah

don’t forget, this was foreseen millenia ago Megilla 6a.

אלו תראטריות וקרקסיות שבאדום שעתידין שרי יהודה ללמד בהן תורה ברבים

Ashreinu shezachinu lekach

If Pesach you should as they might be particular about avoiding kitniyos.

ZD

“As far as the Hungarian Takanah, that probably doesnt apply anymore”

Thats you opinion and for now on I will rely on you and stop yelling at my Rabbi when he speaks in English, but not all necessarily agree with you.

” since most hungrians probably dont speak Yiddish, but rather speak english”

I’m not sure what you mean. Rest assured you will not find a public speech in English in a Satmar, Spink, Viznitz, munkatch etc Shtibel.

“and its not a Hungarians event anyway”

True, but you are forgetting “t is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate,”

Incidentally, I love the logic of: “Lets make this event truly unifying by only speaking the language I understand.” (not a direct quote)
Absolutely fantastic stuff. This might be one of my favorite threads

Look this conversation is sillier than most of our conversations on yiddish.

Its main reedeeming value is that it really highlights the backwards thinking of the anti-yidishists.

the question was:
“Can anyone explain the objective of having speeches in Yiddish at the siyum hashas for Daf yomi in America?”

The answer is really quite straight forward, and was identified by the OP “If it is meant to be a unifying event to inspire and celebrate, ” As has been pointed out the majority of attendees DO understand enough Yiddish. While, yes there are many that don’t there are also many that understand only Yiddish.
The most inclusive way to accommodate all is to have speeches in both languages. I get that some here hate yiddish and yiddish speakers (all in the name of achdus of course) but is it really so much to ask to sit there for 10? 15? minutes while a speech is made that others can understand?
(though granted, ideally there would be simultaneous translation on the jumbotrons, which doesn’t seem too complicated to arrange)

Furthermore, to many chasidim especially Hungarians there is an issur the first of the takanos michalovityz reads “אסור לדרוש דרשה בלשון אומות העולם” (in Hebrew so you know its serious) . they want to join you although it makes them uncomfortable that the bulk of the speeches violate their takanos, some are willing to join listen to many speeches in English for the sake of achdus, All they ask for in return is some acknowledgment of Yiddish.
IS that really so unreasonable?
(This paragraph is secondary since I’m not sure how many take the takanos seriously but would be satisfied as long as some Yiddish is there, Those who reealy care about the takanos like the Satmar Rebbes won’t be there (partly) due to the fact that the speeches are in English)