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“Are we all in agreement that a frum woman getting a job in the US government is not truly a “Kiddush Hashem” in the Torahdik sense?”
I’ll do you one better I don;t think it is even a Kiddush Hashem in the “21st century Colloquial sense”
“Do you think it is an actual mitzvah to look good in front of goyim, ”
Ca asked that earlier, no it isnt an actual mitzvah (though depends what you mean by “mitzvah”) but it is more than a practical consideration, as is clear from numerous sources brought above.
that said back to the actual topic at hand,
Ive been thinking about Joseph’s OP, which Ive heard before and am not arguing with, although IVe also heard Rabonim, and rosehi yeshiva using the term “Kiddush HAshem” in the way Joseph says not too. Fine, they are using it colloquially, not much of a question therebut how how do you (and Joseph) understand Rambam Gezeila 11:3 אֲבֵדַת עוֹבֵד עַכּוּ”ם מֻתֶּרֶת שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר “אֲבֵדַת אָחִיךָ”. וְהַמַּחֲזִירָהּ הֲרֵי זֶה עוֹבֵר עֲבֵרָה מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהוּא מַחֲזִיק יַד רִשְׁעֵי עוֹלָם. וְאִם הֶחֱזִירָהּ לְקַדֵּשׁ אֶת הַשֵּׁם כְּדֵי שֶׁיְּפָאֲרוּ אֶת יִשְׂרָאֵל וְיֵדְעוּ שֶׁהֵם בַּעֲלֵי אֱמוּנָה הֲרֵי
זֶה מְשֻׁבָּח
?” I just think myself and others didn’t really see where you were going with your mashal.”
Don’t get caught up on the mashal, in general a mashal is meant to help understand a point (in this case the point is what that comment is doing on this thread, is my original comment really so out of place that i need a mashal to explain why its here?), if you understood without it thats fine too
your muktzeh idea would work too, though I dont really understand your phrasing a more apt comparison would be:
joseph: “Muktzeh does not mean an issur to carry, FYI”
Ubiquitin ” True, but caryying is assur too”
DY: “There are a lot of thing that are assur on shabbos, this thread is about Muktzeh not those other things”“If you kept up with the YWN headlines, it was clear what it was commenting upon.”
1) not everyone keeps up w/ YWN headlines
2) IIRC Ive had this argument w/ Joseph before” It’s really gotten out of hand.”
Agreed“If Rabbi Hershel Shechter believes for certain that swordfish is kosher, he should video himself cooking it and then eating it”
Why? Is that how halacha works?“Wouldn’t we all agree?”
Absolutely!Of course , the Agudas Harabanim allowed swordfish too
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=12060&st=&pgnum=18The history of swordfish is actually quite fascinating, the opposition was largely driven by Rabbi Tendler, who wrote a teshuva in the Jewish Observer April 1968 that really turned things around , it baecame a dividing line between Orthodox and Conservative when the two were more similar several decades ago
“You keep getting dinged on this because your “imaginary thread” is not a good mashal.”
Nu Nu
” Nobody is arguing that there’s no inyan in looking good by goyim;”
Fantastic! So we agree, shalom al yisroelCA
Ah, but my imaginary thread wasn’t about ״תשובו כעין תדורו״ , it was about, and I quote, “Eating in the sukkah ….”
Both eating and sleeping in the sukkah are part of the מצוה of
״תשובו כעין תדורו״I couldn’t agree more!
much like Kiddush Hashem and “Looking good by the Goyim” are both part of a yid’s avodas Hashem“So I’m not sure why you brought that up ”
Sure glad to explain! Let me know where I lose you1) Joseph wrote, that “Kiddush Hashem” Does Not Mean Looking Good by the Goyim .
2) I granted that his point was true, but noted that “Looking good by the goyim was important too”
3) To which DY said ““There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about kiddush Hashem, not all of the other things.”
4) To which I replied with a mashal. In a thread about Eating in sukkah (note not a thread about ״תשובו כעין תדורו״) It is 100% appropriate to mention sleeping in a sukkah, as you correctly note while of course not eating sleeping is very closely related to eating in sukkah. (all the more so if I mentioned sleeping in OP, it is certainly appropriate to clarify that sleeping is part of the mitzvah. Similarly if Joseph mentions “Looking Good by the Goyim ” My pointing out that that too is important, is not comparable to bringing up ” lots of good things ” It is related to the subject at hand, it is literally mentioned up there in the title, go look it is still there! It is not at all an example of “a lot of good things”Hope that helps, If it doesnt, that’s ok Don’t get caught up in the mashal if it is too confusing move on to and absorb my main point,
Namely: looking good in front of the Goyim is a good thing.DY
“Meh.”
I can live with “meh” not all my posts have to be exciting
Though interestingly my “meh” comment prompted challenges of one sort or other from several posters.
Even though I’m not even sure If I’m arguing with anybodyHealth
“because nowadays the Frum media tends to portray alot of it’s Headlines – “Kiddush Hashem”. And when you read the article – it’s Not a “Kiddush Hashem””what I think is worse as that Most of those stories are not even a “Kiddush Hashem” in the 21 st century colloquialism sort of way. big deal a frum person got a promotion? That BH happens daily
NC
“Except that dwelling in the sukkah does include sleeping.”
Yep, thats why I was careful to word it my way .“If you wrote a post worded in the way you used as an example, it would be your fault for wording it poorly.”
Yes! Exactly! and it would be appropriate for you to clarify the potential error even if “sleeping in the sukah” was not the subject I opened with, and thats not what I was discussing (as an aside eating and sleeping arent 100% equivalent, we dont make a beracha on sleeping, a snack is allowed outside a sukah but a nap isnt. nonetheless, I agree with you 100% that correcting a possible mistaken inference in my post (whether intentionally poorly worded, unintentionally poorly worded, or even properly worded, but still one that could lead to a mistaken inference) is absolutely warranted )“I think what Joseph and DY are getting at is that people should be able to separate its slang usage from its halachic meaning, which some posters seem unable to do.”
Fair enough. Though I don’t think that is what Joseph was getting at. I think Joseph was trying to say/hint/imply that We don’t care what the goyim think of us. and even if that was NOT what he was trying to say, It definitely could be interpreted that way. so I cautioned that while strictly speaking Joseph was correct (as I opened my very first comment on this thread “While true…”), I cautioned not to make the mistaken inference that his post might lead to (and that I believe he intended)
I’m not sure if we are arguing.
If you are saying that look there are these two noble ideas 1) kiddush Hashem and 2) looking good by the Goyim. We need to come up wit h a new term for the latter to separate it from the former., I wouldn’t have commented, that isnt very interesting to me
On the other hand if you are saying there is 1 noble idea (ie in this thread, obviously “There are lots of good things we are supposed to do” as DY so helpfully put it). Namely that of Kiddush Hasehm and there is NO good thing to “Look good by the Goyim,” THEN we ARE arguing, and I provided some examples to buttress my pointCA
“Is there a מצוה to look good by the גוים?”
I’m not sure what you mean by “מצוה” no I dont think it is one of the taryag mitzvos, and no there is no beracha “…asher kidishanu bemitzvosav vetzivanu likach high ranking position in the goyishe velt”
but it one hundred percent is a positive thing that goyim look up to Jews, As the passuk says “ושמרתם ועשיתם כי הוא חכמתכם ובינתכם לעיני העמים אשר ישמעון את כל החקים האלה ואמרו רק עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה ” (to be clear I’m not saying taking a high ranking position is an example of that per se, my point of bringing the passuk, is that we DO care what goyim think of us, goyim saying “עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה” is a good thing) This idea that we don’t care what Goyim think is not true.
There are even more examples of the reverse, ie having the Goyim look down at us (and by extension Hashem r”l) is a bad thing examples were brought above. Tachanun is full of such phrases ” לָמָּה יאמְרוּ הַגּויִם אַיֵּה נָא אֱלקיהֶם” “הַבֵּט מִשָּׁמַיִם וּרְאֵה כִּי הָיִינוּ לַעַג וָקֶלֶס בַּגּוֹיִם” and as we conclude ” עָזְרֵנוּ אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׁעֵנוּ עַל דְּבַר כְּבוֹד שְׁמֶךָ. וְהַצִּילֵנוּ וְכַפֵּר עַל חַטֹּאתֵינוּ לְמַעַן שְׁמֶךָ:” There is a lack of kavod shomayim when Jews are suffering, persecuted, downtrodden, looked down upon etc. Thus conversely ,it kavod shomayim when Jews are doing well.Inyanei dyoma, “looking good by the goyim” even affects haclachic practice (!) The Rema 554:17 says וכן במקום שדרים בין העכו”ם לא יחלוץ כי אם ברחוב היהודים וכן נהגו. Ie when in a goyish street, you can wear shoes on tishaa baav. the MB explains משום העכו”מ שמלעיגים עלינו:.
Again, this isnt strictly speaking “Kiddush Hashem” (thouigh to be fair, phrases change we don’t use the term “chasid” the way chazal do,) and I’m not saying it is a “מצוה” to wear shoes on a goyish street on Tisha b’av. But we very much DO care what Goyim think of us, the Torah and H”KBH
DY
“There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about kiddush Hashem, not all of the other things.”So that isnt complletly true
read the OP, Jseph is NOT telling us waht Kiddush Hashem means, he is just telling us what it isnt. ““Kiddush Hashem” Does Not Mean Looking Good by the Goyim”
One might mistankingly conclude (and knowing Joseph this s why he framed it that way) that there was no reason to look good by the Goyim. To which I am poiting out that isnt true.If I said “Eating in the sukkah does not mean sleeping in it, FYI” It would be very on topic for you to say “True, but sleeping in the sukkah is also important”
I dont think it would make sense for me to then say “There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about eating in the sukkah, not all of the other things.”Meno
What do you mean by “arbitrary conventions” all of math involves “arbitrary conventions” how do you know what the + in “1+2” means? I think it should mean to the power of and the answer is 1 my friend thinks it should mean multiplication, or maybe it should mean put the numbers next to each other but in reverse order so the answer is 21
While true that isn’t what kiddish hashem means we do want Hashem to “look good” by the goyim, a way to do that is for us to look good.
The first example that comes to mind is Both Avraham and Moshe rabbeinu used the argument of “what would the goyim say” חָלִ֣לָה לָּ֔ךְ הֲשֹׁפֵט֙ כָּל־הָאָ֔רֶץ ) לֹ֥א יַעֲשֶׂ֖ה מִשְׁפָּֽט and לָמָּה֩ יֹאמְר֨וּ מִצְרַ֜יִם לֵאמֹ֗ר בְּרָעָ֤ה הֽוֹצִיאָם֙ לַהֲרֹ֤ג אֹתָם֙ בֶּֽהָרִ֔ים)
Yserbius
a. “in general when you use x(y) to multiply, you will use a bar to divide”
I hear, but eh that isnt a real rule
b. ““8/2(2+2)” which makes it a lot clearer that “2(2+2)” is the denominator and “8” is the numerator”
the reverse is true. the way you wrote it is ambiguous and I could hear either way. the way I wrote it is crystal clear with no room for ambiguity8
—— = ?
2(2+2)would equal 1 (hopefully that formatting doesnt get messed up
At any rate the mistake facing most people i not the issue facing most people online, though I do hear were ou are coming from, most people online either dont appreciate the order of operations, OR think multiplication always precedes division (peMDas)
scroll through this thread, where the ambiguities you mentioned arent an issueLaskern, you are sticking in extra parenthesis that arent there .
8/(2(2+2)) = 1 correct
but the way it was written : 8÷2(2+2) = 8÷2(4) = 4(4) = 16So apparently it isn’t just coffee room readers struggling wit elementary school math
This problem:
8÷2(2+2) = ?
Seems to be confusing people, with one silly website claiming the problem “Baffles Mathematicians, Physicists”
when of course it doesn’t, if you follow the rules there is only one answer it isn’t ambiguous and there is no debate
I post this as it brought back fond memories of the post that first got me addicted to the magical place that is the coffee room, where people can argue over basic facts
(The answer of course is 16 and only 16 no other answer is correct or partially correct)
Syag
“Do you see the difference?”
Oh totally. I agree completely
I’m sorry for misunderstanding your post.Syag
“I don’t get why this is appropriate in the hours after lives are lost.”now is when it is most appropriate.
Try convincing people that smoke detectors are important, it isnt easy. After a tragedy occurred a few years ago, there were lines for smoke detectors . That is a great thing (not the tragedy obviously, but people learning from it) some wrong headed people said “now isnt the time” But that is exactly wrong. Now is absolutely 100% the time to reevaluate, reassess, and change if necessary our current practice in regard to pool safety, exactly while the wound is freshHonest
“well doomsday already pointed out that 85 kids cannot be considered a control trial. are you disagreeing with that?”
Of course!
rule of thumb: If dooms says it is wrong I love his first ” Critique” “Only 85 Vaxxed kids which is Waaaaaaaaaaaay too small to show any autism which has a rate of 2%.” I’ll let you crunch the numbersNumbers 2-4 He already said before and they were wrong the first time he said it , as was explained then (on the original dooms thread) and they are wrong today.
I especially love using Gallileo to prove that scientists lie“the other studies you mentioned I will have to look into it . you ddin’t mention it before”
I thought you researched this subject already?
“before i go and spend time to research the 2 studies that you mentioned . I want to make sure . can you confirm that these 2 studies were long term Safety RCT studies of SALINE PLACEBO? otherwise it wouldn’t prove anything.”
It wont prove anything because your mind is made up. If they were done for 20 years you would want 40, if 40 you would want 80. If autisim, you would want allergies,. You stated deffinitly no such studies were done ” Some vaccines monitored just for a few days.. no vaccine ever had a real placebo” you couldnt even be bothered to google that stament which would have yielded plenty of other vaccines tested against placebo (HPV comes to mind)
So no I have no interest in “confirming” anything for you. The studies are there, if you dont like them becasue the the stud has too many vowels then their are others.
“If not RCT at least vaxxed vs unvaxxed retroactively”
If you read my comments you would know such a study HAS been done see the Philippines study cited above.
And of course RCT blinded placebo trials have been done
starting with the early Salk POli vaccinedown to the MMR which this thread is about :
Frequency of true adverse reactions to measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. A double-blind placebo-controlled trial in twins. Lancet. 1986 Apr 26;1(8487):939-42.
There , now you have placebo studies. Satisfied? (Don’t worry I’m not holding my breath)
“All you are saying that because the government says BELIEVE me that its safe without any studies to back it, i have to belive it ..”
not once have I said that.
So not only don’t you bother to read comments I write, you put other words in my mouthHonest
“(I was in the mountains over the weekend with no internet so didn’t respond to your reply to me. )”
thats ok. You weren’t missed. These arguments are a waste of time .At least if you read the comments youd learn a thing or two but you cant be bothered “ubiquitin people haven’t forgottten . they didn’t care then to read all the nonsense that people are writing . (at least I didn’t)”
Youre mind is made up and all the facts and studies in the world will not change it. So why bother?
And the responses don’t even make sense. “and you are writing that there is so many studies about “efficiency” who asked about effiencey we wanted to know Safety.” I wrote efficacy. not “efficiency” (the reason why efficay is relevent, is that it explains why depriving chidren of these proven effective vaccines is unethical) those no true RCT could be done going forward, obviosuly this doesnt stop other studies but once doen they are no longer what the pro-diseasers want because reasons)
(to others commenting here be careful with drinking water, my FDA insert points out that drinking too much can cause hyponatrmeia leading to seizures and death, IT can be contaminated with bacteria leading to death, and of course if a person falls into a pool of it and doesnt know how to swim, you gussed it death, Iadvise my pateitns not to drink any water, sadly these patients are doing worse than the fellow I injected with vegtables and the person I transfused a unit of blood by having him drink it, once IVe learnt that parental and entaral modes of ingestion were the same)
“The same way everyone here is presenting their knowledge, irrelevant of working in the health field/being a medical professional or not.”
Again (for the last time since this is getting boring)
you commented in an attempt to defend Dooms, who has been thoroughly debunked and exposed as a liar “You are absolutely right. I myself am a healthcare professional and have been involved in multiple research studies”
you did not explain how or why you thought dooms was right. you slapped the label “healthcare professional” on yourself and paskened dooms correct.
you THEN went on to make an absurd comparison that Because eating a ” roll of heavy duty aluminum foil, ” is not something an average human would do, therefore MMR (the subject of the thread) causes illnesses.
Never mind the fact that MMR contains no aluminum, never mind the fact that eating and injecting (vaccines arent injected in the bloodstream btw) are not equivalent your whole comparison makes no sense. Strangely when I pointed out the absurd comparison, by comparing to injecting vegetables, what should have been obvious as nonsense, you took that seriously too, you similarly dsiplayed a lac k of understanding of elementary physiology “And regarding blood transfusions-due to longer time of absorption, it would be unwise for someone to drink blood. It is quite a circuitous route from the mouth to the bloodstream.” When your lack of understanding was pointed out you bizzarley claimed ” you are just strengthening what was iterated, ”
Yo u win
I thought conversations on vaccines could not possibly get any dumber. I was absolutely wrong. congrats you have succeeded in lowering my incredibly low expectations for anti-vaxxers ie pro-dieasers .practical
“. Even though these amounts may be small, ” … Although mother’s milk does have a bit of aluminum”
You need to make up your mind.
“if you are getting 90-100 vaccines ”
Is that more or less than the number of times a baby feeds?If anyone is interested in learning more about aluminium in vaccines CHOP’s website has a great detailed rundown as to how much aluminum is contained in vaccines compared to formula, and milk
fun fact there is MORE aluminum in milk than in the MMR (the subject at hand) maybe to protect our children we should feed them MMR vaccines instead of milk?
” It seems like people on this thread have a tendency to misconstrue. I said that I am in the healthcare field, not someone who practices medicine.”
no, YOU tried to mislead, you label yourself as “a healthcare professional ” as if you are some expert. you didnt just throw it in haphazardly. It was the opening sentence of of a comment on one of your first day’s posting. Of course you were quickly called out, as it is clear you dont know what you are talking about
“Also, all because you do not love what I am saying, does not make what I am saying less true.”
You said that already. However what DOES make it less true is the fact that it is nonsense.spare me the physiology lesson. Especially since again you dont know what you are talking about ” It is quite a circuitous route from the mouth to the bloodstream” There is no such route for red blood cells. The human GI tract does not contain any channel, transporter or mechanism to absorb red blood cells.
Practical
True, but not 2scents didnt say you were less or more knowledgeable (though obviously half of that statement is true) 2scents said that your posts “do not make you seem like someone that is well educated and actually practices medicine” which is unquestionably true .The comparison between ingesting ” a roll of heavy duty aluminum foil, ” to the minute amount contained in some vaccines (note live attenuated vaccines like MMR generally contain no aluminum while interestingly many foods including human milk does) can not be made by someone either well educated nor a “Healthcare professional”
Tell me healthcare professional to healthcare professional. I have a patient who needed a blood transfusion, I figured hey whats the difference between how we get it in him let him just drink the blood. another patient I figured lets inject him with some health veggies again, using the same logic (I pureed them of course ) none of these patients are doing well, did any of the studies you’ve been involved in uncover why?
thanksNC
I once asked your question to R’ Belsky z”l (I am almost certain it was R’ Belsky this was years ago, it may have been R’ Heineman yibadel lechaim). He said that yad Soledes bo isn’t judged when you are bracing yourself for hot water, people can touch and not recoil and far hotter water than 110 degrees, when they expect it. He said that yad soledes bo is judged when you don’t expect it, imagine using your negel vasser and finding it 100 degrees, you’d be surprised but not recoil your hand at 110 degrees if you weren’t expecting it you would pull your hand back, though you could will yourself to keep your hand in place.
I asked him where he got this distinction from, and he said its obvious, and that if it ws the same temperature, as that f scalding baby’s belly this had to be peshat
“foreign chemicals entering your body cannot be to good for you. How about taking a roll of heavy duty aluminum foil, cutting it up and eating it?”
Lol!! Every “Healthcare professional” has been wondering that same thing
Abba
“a few yeshivas tried to ban their anti-vaxer students but the state wouldn’t allow it because of the religious exemption”Correct, now do you not see how absurd it is to want to send your child to a yeshiva (ie a religous instituion) but not follow THEIR policies claiming “religous exemption”?
“Kidnapping these almost 5,0000 children beside being a capital offense according to both secular and Jewish law”
Um no its a capita offence accoring to neither . And at any rate. Isn’t children’s education worth it?
“Do you think you can get far”
We dont need to get far, we can set up mobile vaccination stations“and the anti-vaxers will be onto you ”
meh we will tell them we are injecting a natural remedy of kale and alfalfa sprouts , we are not talking about the smartest bunch here all we need is a celebrity endorments and they will be all for it.
“and you are dumping the schooling on the parents”
wrong wrong wrong.
THEY are dumping it on themselves, I am not sure why you are struggling wit h this .
If a person refuses to dress his kids, you grant that the yeshiva doesnt have a responsibility. It is the exact same thing here.
A school can make any rule they want, no homes with TV’s unfiltered internet, filtered intenet, parent in kollel, smartphones, not-smart phones, or even no pro-diseasers.
Do you grant a yeshiva’s right to any of the above rules?why not no pro-diseasers?
Abba
“As far as sending your child nude to school, yeshivas can set their own dress code”I completely agree.
so why can’t yeshivos establish their own health code?“until September 2019 you can have a religious exemption for not being vaccinated.”
no the problem is that it was being abused. The whole idea of forcing a yeshiva (ie a religous instituion) to accept unvaccinated due to a “religous exemption” makes absolutly zero sense. Clearly the pro -diseasers arent practicing the same religion as the yeshivas.
” I am no asking for money to educate them just ideas to save them”
I am all for a lev leachim type rescue mission to kidnap these kids from the pro -disease parents and vaccinate them . Are you in?
“Are we willing to write-off almost 5,000 Jewish souls off?”
no WE arent. but sadly their parents are.NC
“With all due respect, you’re wasting your time. ”
I know, but I have trouble letting things go. sometimes I stick around for fun but this one isnt even fun so it is just my hangup
“Logic did not create them, and therefore logic cannot destroy them.”
Very well said. thank youDooms
“We know 100% of people who fall from that high die.”False, like every one of your posts. Look up vesna Vulovic. True most people wh fall that height without a parachute die, but that is due to the healthy cohort effect. Most if not all peopl wh jump out of an airplane without a parachute are already suffering from a mental condition.
“but looking at a Million 100% unvaxxed compared to the rest of the population that has an Autism rate of 1:50 and learning disability rate of 1:6 would easily prove that Vaccines cause autism and learning disabilities.”
And if the reverse is true you’d say and I quote ” The Vaxxed children has Richer, Better Educated Parents so probably INHERITED higher IQ ” So what exactly would be gained. i’m wasting time discussing this with you, do you really think the answe is more time (and money ) wasted
as a wise man said ” Logic did not create them, and therefore logic cannot destroy them.”Honest
” they didn’t care then to read all the nonsense that people are writing . (at least I didn’t)”And there you have it. you are simply not interested in the truth. Kudos to you for admiting that so openly. Make no mistake we all knew that, I’m just surprised at your candor.
In case you decide to read this :
1) This question has been answered over and over and over. ”“yeh, can you give me an answer that makes sense to a normal human being???”
sure! 1) it won’t change anything and we all know that. So why invest money in a study that won’t change a thing
2) Yes it isnt ethical
you say “which totally doesn’t make sense. because when someone is sick then everyone agrees that its NOT ethical to give the sick guy medicine that has NOT YET been proven to be safe .” I dont know what this means. nobody agrees to that. This is such nonsense. Studies are done on human subjects all the time. I try to get patients enrolled in such studies when there is no proven cure available, then maybe an experimental drug might help. What gave you this wrong notion.
” (remeber the 2 million dollar campaign a week ago for saving a a child life because the FDA didn’t approve the medicine over 2 )”
Yes. why?
” But when someone is HEALTHY then its NOT ETHICAL to deny him medication that <i> might < /> prevent him from becoming sick.”
Not might, that has BEEN PROVEN.Heres a question. would it be ethical to study if parchutes save lives of those who fall out of airplanes? these are healthy people. So lets throw some out without a parachute. Especially when there is no study proving that parachutes help.
Even if let people self enroll in the parachute study. “Oh I was going to jump anyway” do you see the downside of allowing such a study to go forward? now granted the comparison isnt exact becasue There are far far far more studies proving the efficacy of vaccines than parachutes., but still hopefully you get the gist” DOES THIS MAKES SENSE TO YOU????? not to me ”
Hopefully now it does.“CAN YOU PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THOSE STUDIES ARE???”
I provided one
happy?Of course not!
after all “didn’t care then to read all the nonsense that people are writing”
hey at least your honest about your dishonestyAbba
“it’s about educating the anti-vaxer students that are being denied an education.”My neighbor doesn’t believe in clothing. (He thinks they cause autism which is more likely than vaccines given how many studies there are on vaccines)
He insists on sending his children to yeshiva that way.
The yeshiva said they can’t come like that.Is the yeshiva wrong ?
What do you want from their father he was shavya anafshei an issur hanaah on clothing ?
what about the kid’s education?“Many parents only vaccinate their children because the yeshivas requires it.”
BH!
Exactly why such rules existdooms
Dooms
“Folks, the question is: Why does CDC refuse to do a VAX VS UNVAX Study?”this has been asked and answered
It wouldnt prove anything.and I can prove THAt to you. you claim a you want a vaxxed study vs unvaxxed. One is done and the new complaint is “but the vaxxed werent vaxxed enough”
you literally can’t make this stuff up.
Look at the rest of the drivel n your post. “This study was NOT randomized.” Yet you claim “HonestOpinion, also, there is no “ethical” problem with doing a RETROSPECTIVE study” by definition any such study isnt randomized. Only an uneducated quack who really doesnt care about his/her chidren wouldnt vaccinate today so even if their rate of autism is higher, then maybe whatever it is that caused the parents to be so brain damaged and dishonest is affecting their chidren? As you say “The Vaxxed children has Richer, Better Educated Parents so probably INHERITED higher IQ ” yes obviosuly! that is why such a study would a. not be a great study and more importantly b. not satisfy you so please please please stop repeating the same nonsense
“So the study did not look at the rate of asthma, allergies, diabetes, epilepsy etc. in the vax vs unvax.” more gibberish, we are discussing autism.Weve been over all of this
Youve succesfully convinced everybody that you, and all pro-diseasers are not interested in the truth. No need to rehash the same old points.What you havent answered not in that thread nor this is this “but at the very least, keep your kids out of our schools. FINE you have some weird hand up about trying to spread diseases, please help me understand why do the rest of us have to oblige this ? \”
Honest
“CAN YOU PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THOSE STUDIES ARE???”
sure.
but I’m tired of debating. Ive discussed this for years. I naively thought pro-diseasers were interested in the truth. however th only conclusion that is reasonable to draw is that pro-diseasers simply hate the truth and/or their childrenThe shift in arguments is astounding.
Mercury causes autism!
Ok we will remove the mercury“The MMR vaccine itself causes autism!”
Look at this study showing no link between MMR and autism !“no no no combining MMR with OTHER vaccines causes autism we need an MMR vs unvaxxed study ”
Sure here is one David E. Bloom, David Canning & Erica S. Shenoy (2011) The effect of vaccination on children’s physical and cognitive development in the Philippines, Applied Economics, 44:21, 2777-2783, DOI: 10.1080/00036846.2011.566203
now spare me, I know I know thats not good becasue you really want to spread diseases , and if you listen to the truth then what excuse do you have?
On THAT point you are right
I can’t convince pro-diseasers or anybody, whose demands keep changing and arent ground in reality
you win.
but at the very least, keep your kids out of our schools. FINE you have some weird hand up about trying to spread diseases, please help me understand why do the rest of us have to oblige this ? Have a measles party on your own turf .
Dooms we played this silly game a few months ago
“1. Wrong! Anti-Vaxxers have asked CDC for 100% Vaxxed vs 100% Unvaxxed. CDC refuses. Why?
This question has been answered over and over and over.
do you realize that by repeating it you only weaken your cause?
I honestly thought Pro-diseasers where as unintelligent as can be,
thn you coem along and ask the same question AGAIN as if it has never been posed before.
Seriously get new material“2. The Study does not prove that MMR does not cause Autism. If cancer rate is the same for 32 pack a day smokers vs 34 pack a day smokers, that does NOT prove smoking does not cause cancer! ”
no, but it WOULD prove that if you smoke 32 ciggarettes there is no harm in smoking another 2.
“The study would have to be Smoker vs Non-Smoker”
no it wouldnt
“. And for MMR the study would have to be MMR vs 100% Unvaccinated.”
No it wouldnt
AND just in case it would, those studies have been done tooSeriously do you not remember this conversation from less than a year ago?
what happened to you did you get enchephalitis from measles ?
OOh so many questions!
LB
“Is it possible for a husband to bring down his wife’s Yiddishkeit or closeness to Hashem?”
Of course!“If a man is struggling in Yiddishkeit, is it always the wife’s fault?”
Of course not“Does that mean that a husband’s closeness to Hashem, or lack thereof, is generally regarded as his wife’s doing or undoing? ”
I woudn’t go quite that far. People are influenced by their teachers/rabbeim parents friends all these play a role in shaping a person and in a normal situation a wife’s influence superseded them all, but that doesnt mean thats all there is.
Would it be disrespectful for me to ask the Rav (or another Rav) this question?
not at allTLIK
“Rabbonim speak of how a wife can bring down a husband’s Yiddishkeit and closeness to Hashem.” Really? ”
Yes
“Who are these rabbonim, and how did they say this?”
almost every single Rav I’ve ever heard speak Parshas Korach, thye love the contras tbetween Korach’s wife and On ben Peles’s ver yclassic speech.” How can anyone kidnap someone away from closeness to Hashem?”
Lots of ways.. for example, ” here try this forbidden apple the snake told me its really good, try it you’ll like it, don’t be such a wuss I had some, If you dont have any I’m going to cry etc etc” (I’m not saying this ever happened, just an example, the forbidden apple was orlah btw)“If a man is struggling in Yiddishkeit, is it always the wife’s fault?” Are you joking? So who says viduy on Yom Kippur – only married women, but not their husbands? What ever happened to bechira?”
I dont understand the question. Being a meissi (convincing others to do avoda zarah) is an aveira. tha tdoesnt mean the sinner doesnt say vidui
” So all men’s aveiros are attributable to women? ”
nope“When they divorce, do the women recite “Boruch Sheptorani”?”
nopeHope that helps1
now tone it down a notch, take a deep breath you sound unhinged.
thats exactly what a spam-bot would say
NC
“” I get the vibe that others read into his comments in an extremely malicious tone while I read them in a more hokey jokey tone.””
I too think Joseph is one giant “hokey joke” (probably not the same way as you, but like you I don’t think he ACTUALLY means what he says we just differ on what he actually believes )
But many posters DO take him seriously. Its not one poster one time, it is many posters many times. when people do take offence he never, says “I’m sorry , you took it extremely maliciously, I meant it in more of a hokey jokey way” On the contrary he doubles down on that same tone.
So in short, he knowingly makes comments he knows many take “extremely maliciously” but makes them any way with that knowledge
How i that not trollish behavior (even assuming he believes the underlying message) ?Lol joseph
“Now that we’ve concluded that Torah punishments aren’t random”
that was never ,at all ,the discussion“and are…. related to the severity of the underlying crime”
that was never debated“and are indicative of… the severity of the underlying crime,”
That was not the conclusionAs for the discussion
“You dumb, mean troll! ”I agree with 1 of those categorizations.
and I (usually) find you quite hilarious. I get the joke you are quite funny and I enjoy having you aroundKY
“You like the Rambam so let’s see what he says…”you mean he provides even MORE cases where the severity of a crime is NOT judged by its punishment?!
Again, yes as a rule of thumb a more severe act has a more severe punishment. My point is that this isn’t absolute, we know have 3 explicit Rambams essentially saying that.
“Yes it can be included in some of the general ones he listed, but so can many others, and you can’t prove it belongs there.”
I suppose I can’t. To be honest I guess I didnt think I’d have to. I thought that was something we could all agree on. I guess this is where we finally reach an impasse
This is the lack of critical thinking part I alluded to earlier. A question like “Ubiq: On what basis would you assume gezel of kesef is less severe than attacking a divorcee?” As if that needed an explicit raya of some sort., troubles me (Joseph of course isnt really asking the question but I think many would, and you seem to agree with him)
“But you or I can’t be the one to decide that.”
I guess I didn’t realize I was saying a chiddush. To sum up my position “Rape is one of the worst crimes a person can do. Aye why doesn’t it have such a bad punishment? I don’t know”
To some up yours “Rape isn’t so bad, if it was it would have a worse punishment”
Of the two yours seems to me (and I assumed most people) like a much bigger chiddush. One that would need an explicit raya, not mine.
CA
Thats nice of you, thanks for the message
Can you pass on a message to Dear Barack
We know you love us! thank you so much for your support during your presidency. Thank you for saving the lives of who knows how many Israeli citizens by pushing for Iron dome funding. Each one is like an entire world. I still remember shivering with fear as Netanyahu told the world Iran was “months away from nuclear weapons” Yet here we are years later still safe thanks to your hard work and efforts !
Ashreicha baolam hazeh vetov loch leolam habahJoseph
“On what basis would you assume gezel of kesef is less severe than attacking a divorcee?”We can ask people who’ve had both done to them
KY
“my neighbor thinks scratching his car is the worst offense you can do
he thinks its at least as bad as murder
how would you respond ?”I guess I would say “What a Rasha I can’t believe someone did that to your car. If only he did the much less severe act of raping someone.” ???
what would you say?What would you say to Nosson Hanavi, when asked about the rich thief? Would you say he is just as bad as the poor thief. (Yes beis din treats them the same I’m not disputing that, but is their “badness” the same?)
“your really going to judge severity by peoples feelings?”
not “people” per se, but someone qualified. a King (see derashs haRan regarding the din meelch vs din beis din) A beis din/kehal leadership. See Teshuvas Rivash 399 ” ולפי זה עלה בידינו שהקהל …”יכולים לקנוס בתקנותיהם כפי אשר יראה בעיניה ”” ועוד שהרי אפי’ בדיני נפשות היו ב”ד מכין ועונשין שלא מן התורה כדי לעשות סייג לתורה ומשום מיגדר מלתא ” See there at length.
“but you’ve given me much to think about
thank you”thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I get caught up in the excitement of discussions and stick in needless snark . kudos to you for being above that and always posting so nicely
NC
“Is there not just a definitive proof that we do or don’t weigh acts based on their punishments? ”
Yes. There are many. Though the best one is Rambam Roteiach 4:9 וְאֵין עוֹשִׂין דָּבָר זֶה לִשְׁאָר מְחֻיְּבֵי מִיתַת בֵּית דִּין אֲבָל אִם נִתְחַיֵּב מִיתָה מְמִיתִין אוֹתוֹ וְאִם אֵינוֹ חַיָּב מִיתָה פּוֹטְרִין אוֹתוֹ. שֶׁאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיֵּשׁ עֲוֹנוֹת חֲמוּרִין מִשְּׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים אֵין בָּהֶן הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. אֲפִלּוּ עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה וְאֵין צָרִיךְ לוֹמַר עֲרָיוֹת אוֹ חִלּוּל שַׁבָּת אֵינָן כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. שֶׁאֵלּוּ עֲוֹנוֹת הֵן מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּין אָדָם לַמָּקוֹם אֲבָל שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּינוֹ לְבֵין חֲבֵרוֹ
I elaborate on this in a longer post that (I assume) is awaiting moderation.
Although other aveiras are in some aspects more chamur. In others murder is worse it contains הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם. OF course severity of an aveira is somewhat based on severity of onesh, this isnt absolute.KY
“no
its assur from the overall idea of gezel which extends rto personal autonomy over their body as well”and if gezel wasnt assur you wouldnt know that it was assur.
Look if you want to categorize rape as a form of gezel I’m ok with that. It is a terribly abhorrent gezel. that seems reasonable“i gave you the page of the rashi”
מאכילין אותו הקל הקל – אם אין לנו דברים מותרים כדי צרכו ויש לפנינו מיני איסורין מאכילין אותו הקל הקל שבהם:טבל ושביעית מאכילין אותו שביעית – לאחר זמן הביעור שהטבל במיתה בידי שמים והשביעית בעשה:
Yes I saw that, and I responded several times (t o be fair I dont know what posts went up when) that of course for things that we wouldnt know are assur, we only know “how assur” they are based on onesh.
I’m saying that this isnt absolute.“kluger is the one arguing that we DO infer based on punishment,”
that should read. “solely” Of course we judge to a extent based on punishment as Ive said from the start
If its not Yiddish its goyish
KY
“in which case does the victim feel worse. im saying that doesn’t equate with the perpetrator having done an objectively worse crime.”
why not?
You say “he was a king. it was for midos” I dont fully understand your response. Are you saying the two thieves are just as bad?
If so why did Dovid call for such a severe punishment?“its a limud מאי חזית דדמא דידך סומק מדמא דחברך”
Aha! its a sevara. Ie something we (read: chazal) came up with on our own. They didnt say, “well Shabbos is more chamur becasue it has a more serious onesh and we dont give up our life, so for mere murder for sure don’t give up your life.”
As the Rambam says rotzeach 4:9 (referring to locking in kupa,) וְאֵין עוֹשִׂין דָּבָר זֶה לִשְׁאָר מְחֻיְּבֵי מִיתַת בֵּית דִּין אֲבָל אִם נִתְחַיֵּב מִיתָה מְמִיתִין אוֹתוֹ וְאִם אֵינוֹ חַיָּב מִיתָה פּוֹטְרִין אוֹתוֹ. שֶׁאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיֵּשׁ עֲוֹנוֹת חֲמוּרִין מִשְּׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים אֵין בָּהֶן הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. אֲפִלּוּ עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה וְאֵין צָרִיךְ לוֹמַר עֲרָיוֹת אוֹ חִלּוּל שַׁבָּת אֵינָן כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. שֶׁאֵלּוּ עֲוֹנוֹת הֵן מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּין אָדָם לַמָּקוֹם אֲבָל שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּינוֹ לְבֵין חֲבֵרוֹ.
Sure in some (many/most ?) regards some aveiros are worse than murder. however this does not change that In another regard murder is far worse. I dont pretend to understand how Hashem judges various crimes. But clearly in some aspect murder is worse than Shabbos it has “הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם” It isnt a stretch at all to say rape too has “הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם” (As the Torah says “כִּי כַּאֲשֶׁר יָקוּם אִישׁ עַל-רֵעֵהוּ, וּרְצָחוֹ נֶפֶשׁ–כֵּן, הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה.” (devarim 22:26) ) granted the punishment isnt as severe, for whatever reason.
But punishment in of itself is not the sole factor determining severity of an act.there are different aspects to any aveira. When Sedom set up a bed in which they lengthened and cut legs. They didnt violate any “techincal” sehva mitzvos. It is still abhorent, woprthy of destruction. When dovid heard about the thief, he didnt say “who cares about the details he pays mamon” He was outraged and condemend him to death. now, we dont have din meelch, but I dont understand how you fit the idea that theft is theft
” its bad from a midos perspective (nogea at least for a yid )”
I was asking for a goy.“killing a father must be a worse מיתה because it’s a worse חטא
Not a difference of לחבירו-למקום”I dont follow. Could you please elaborate .
“the third is no different then calling a molester a rodef so im not sure why even you would consider that an exception”
because we all know it isnt strictly speaking a case of a rodef. We expand the din rodef for the betterment of society, much as you expanded the din meisis to include zionism. Similarly you seem to be coming around to “and its a violation of personal property rights” (regarding rape). Interesting take, I hear it
KY
“Look in rashi there”Im not sure which Rashi you are reffering to.
I responded t o this. Whats worse tevel or neveila?Neither of whcih seem assur on their own, we only know they are assur becasue the Borei Olam told us. SO we dont know what He considers worse, wo we look at punishment.
Rape vs theft. which is worse. We don’t need to look at the onesh to determine that. that is something we all know. (much like you grant you know rape is assur even though their is no explicit passuk telling you)
“I keep sticking to it because it’s true”
Its not, the list of exceptions keeps getting longerJoseph
The Donald asked to borrow my login his words follow:
“Thank you loyal Joseph for your kind thanks, I sit here up at night between tweets, such great tweets everybody thinks they are the greatest, constantly scanning YWN coffee room peopel say what a great coffee room it is the best beelieve me, looking for acknowledgment, and it is sad that most losers and haters don’t thank me here. covfefe”
“Should we say that’s because it’s worse than the other two so it’s so bad there is no earthly punishment?
I can’t figure out that logic.”a. Why don’t we say onshin min hadin?
If a the severity of an act is always graded based on punishment then use a simple kal vachomer, then a more severe act should carry (at least) the same punishment?b. Its ok not to be able to “figure out that logic” you acknowledge regarding your view of rape as not being so severe “I happen not to understand it”
so either way you agree that it escapes your full understanding (not that I understand why it doesnt have a more severe punishment)I guess what I’m puzzling over is in spite of you conceding this “lack of understating”, what drives you to stick by your assertion that rape is not among the most abhorent acts, and to have to come up with all sorts of exceptions in order to allow the rule that “greater punishment = worse act” to exist. At the very least, why can’t this be yet another exception (for whatever reason)?
KY
“A court does not belong meting out punishment based on their feelings.”
Again I’m not up to punishment yet.
I am trying to understand your view. (ie that we strictly judge how bad an act is based on punishment)I’m trying to understand your view that severity of an act is absolutly determined by severity of punishment.
1) “How do you know which is smaller?
You look at the punishment”Yes klapi shemaya. How do we know whats worse donkey or cheilev. both don’t seem particulary bad to me? We look at the punishment.
If I were to ask you whats worse being embarrased in public or having you r sheep stolen.would you say “well if you steal my sheep you have to pay me 5 times its worth, if you embarras me you get no punishment (from beis din (leave out daas yachid that arent lehalacha) So I’d rather get embarrassed”
does that make sense to you?what;s worse chopping of a leg or stealing a cow.
Ok let me do the math … a cow cost 100,000 dollars so your knas is 400,000, a leg costs well my value goes down, plus bed rest and doctor bill.. add it all up and ok I guess leg is worseIs that really how you view the severity of an act?
2) You acknowledge rape is bad, if there is no onesh how do you know? Is it worse than stealing? If a single girl would r”l say “please don’t d othat take my money” is she being mesayeah ovdei aveira by encouraging him to do a worse aveira?
3) After how many exceptions, does your absolute rule of greater punishment = worse act fall apart.
So far you have “However that is only על פי סוד.,” “it’s simply because of it being אבוזריהו דגילוי עריות ” “a person can always do תשובה so מחטיאו is not final whereas if you kill him it’s over” expanding the rules of meisis to include zionism. I’m not disputing these specific points.I’m, just saying that clearly the rule greater punishment = worse act isn’t absolute. As you ackowledge based on the multiple exceptions
4) Nassan tells Dovid of the rich man who stole poor man’s beloved sheep (Shmuel 2 12) Do you think it is no different than a poor man’s stealing a rich man’s sheep? (Yes David was allowed to punish becasue of din melech, my question is WHY did he punish what in your view (if I understand correctly) is an ordinary act of stealing.
Is that in fact your view that stealing a poor man’s only sheep is not “badder” than stealing a rich man’s?5) “חילול שבת is worse than murder.”
And yet only one of those is one required to give up one’s life for.
And here is the real kicker: how do we know, one is required to give up his life rather than kill?
Is it a passuk or limud of some sort?1)
Lol Joseph
“Ubiq, KY adequately answered the questions you posed.”So shall be written and so shall be done.
Gepaskened.”
So why is there no punishment you will ask?”Nope I don’t ask that, I use it as an example where the severity Of an onesh is not indicative of the severity of the aveira.
As you seem to acknowledge later on in your post.
“Much as we saw before, a list of גדולי פוסקי זמננו who say a molester is a רודף due to the ultimate outcome, ”
See? Critical thinking, at first you didn’t seem to acknowledge this.
Are you so sure rape isn’t similar?“different עונשים for various crimes, clearly states that the more severe crime carries the more severe punishment.”
Does it? How sure are you the severity there is against man vs Hashem
Also what’s worse chilul shabbos or murder?
“No I categorically do not agree it is among the worst things a human can do to another…but my lack of understanding doesn’t change the truth.”
I’m a bit confused.
why isn’t how bad something is towards a person determined by people?
For example If I were to ask you what hurts more getting stabbed or shot r”l. would you say well the Torah says the punishment is the same so they are the same.
Or a better example IF a person tortures and kills someone. Is that just as bad as killing since the punishment for both is the same ?
I think i’m missing something .
also do you have a mekor fr this idea that something being bad is determined solely by the punishment?
As to why the Torah didnt mandate misah, maybe being meanes is so bad that he doesnt even deserve the kaparah of misas beis din? Or “I happen not to understand it. But I think that that is my short coming”
It seems to me than when faced with this “stirah”
If its so bad why doesnt the Torah demand a worse punishment. can be resolved wither by saying its not so bad (though I don’t know why) or by saying Its horrible, I don’t know why the punishment isnt worse.why do you take the former approach?
Joseph
“If that had been true, the halachic punishment would have been far more severe.”
1) mehechi teisi?
2) what is worse turning someone into a zionist or killing him ?
3) I cant help but notice you didn’t answer the questionKY
“sorry for the confusion”
Don’t mention it. I am much more guilty of writing confusing posts.
“yes its definately wrong”
Agreed whole heartedly! BH I love shalomNow, would you say it is wrong on the level of spitting at somone or stealing a penny (both wrong). Or is it something so much worse, perhaps among the worst things a human can do to another ?
KY
“the brisker rav says…”chapter and verse please.
how does that fit wit hthe Rambam in shmoneh perakim perke vav “הענינים המפורסמים אצל כל בני האדם שהם “רעות”: כשפיכות דמים, וגנבה, וגזלה, ואונאה, ולהזיק למי שלא הרע לו, ולגמול רע למיטיב לו, ולבזות אב ואם וכיוצא באלו. והן המצוות שאמרו עליהן החכמים, ז”ל: ‘שאילו לא נכתבו ראויות הן לכתב”
He gfoes on to say not to say “לא יאמר אדם אי אפשי (. . אלא אפשי ומה אעשה אבי שבשמים גזר עלי” doesnt apply to things we know would be wrong.
At any rate though your narrow reading of Rashi, (Gemara yoma really) side steps my point.
HOW would we know such a thing is wrong? (you say “nowhere indicating that we would be chayav” again, patientce we will get to punishment. first we need to settle whether it is wrong. I am not discussing punishment yet.
I assume we agree stealing less than shava peruta is wrong, things can be wrong without punishment. (bidei adam)“same with that rashi.which btw does not say what you claim at all”
I quoted it verbatim, in its original
“But you only asked that after my question.”
end quote
… really?????”
Yes really. It is a follow up from a previous thread wher I asked my questionunlike you I will actually cite chapter and verse :
It was the thread titled “Waiter’s finger was in my my soup!” page 2 reply number 1718823
you addressed the question to me.
now if you look before that in my replies 1717271, 1716745 and 1716458 (all before yours) I asked my original question that I still havent gotten a striaght answer from you.Is it wrong for a Goy to be meanes an unmarried woman.
In case you did answer and I missed it do you mind obliging and giving a simple yer or no.
I’m not asking if he is chayiv anything I’m not asking if he gets punished. Just did he do a bad thing ?“im still waiting for the gemorah you quoted which im not familiar with
and mareh mekomos from your rav”I never said my Rav had mareh mekomos.
Though relax we have plenty. Torah is perfect dont chas vesholom be worried that somehting is lacking. You are lacking a bit which is why you seem to be so afraid to answer straight forward questions. but together we will get the emes.
but one step at a time.Again lets settle this simple point. Is it wrong for a goy to be meanes a woman, yes or no.
(forgive me for not replying regarding the king part we will get there but you get lost covering lots of points at once, or maybe its me but I have been asking thsi question several times now and I’m still not sure as to your view or a person being meanes, youve compared it to spitting, said ” the Torah does not view the act with the horror western “civilization ” does.” “OK is a vague word. I’m not sure what the issur would be though”, ” Same as stealing a penny”.)
NC
“Saying the Torah doesn’t prescribe a punishment for something is not the same thing as saying it’s OK”
agreed“. He clearly isn’t saying it’s OK.”
Its not so clear, he seems to be equivocating in a few posts. and when I ask him outright I havent gotten straight answers . but I will keep trying he came close “Of course. Just like its wrong for him to spit in someone’s face.” Though I’m curious if he actually means that