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Another relevant mareh makom (though not a rayah by any means)
The mishna berura in intro to hilchos shabbos says how severe shabbos is.
He proves this from onesh. But he doesn’t say case closed that is how severity is determined, he shows other ways that shabbos is more chamur. Because severity of an act is not solely determined by onesh“I don’t know of any gadol or Rosh Hayeshiva who actually urges his talmidimg to join Daf Yomi anymore.”
As opposed to what?
“How exactly will the funds generated create more lomdei Torah?”
by making it a “do not miss” opportunity. Creating a sense of community and belonging. some groups get excited and look forward to a new i phone comign out, we look forward to a siyum on shas. The last one was almost yesterday. If I had just started then, I would have a passing familiarity with so many sugyos in shas. Is learnign a beiyun better? sure but that isnt waht most people are forgoing for Daf yomi, they are forgoing sleep or TV or doing nothing“I don’t think the Agudah can increase Torah learning. ”
The ycan and they have, obviously the yetzer Harah hates this, so he plants faltche frumkeit into people to make it the “frum” thing to oppose daf yomi. I mean look at some of these arguments. We should get rid of Daf yomi because Rav Gifter and Rav Schwabb are no longer alive to make us shudder or feel special. no sane person could come up with something like that. but the Yetzer Harah blinds even intelligent people to say such foolish things under the guise of being “frum”“Before we know it, In 5 & 1/2 years this nonstop promotion machine will start all over again promoting the next siyum hashas”
AMAZING! and homw many more people will have picked up a Gemara before then that otherwise wouldnt have!
(of course citifield should be metlife, but that doesnt change the gist of my post)
furthermore you say “As we heard Rav Gifter speak in a wailing voice, we shuddered.” the fact that you dont feel that anymore is a chisaron in you. yes as a “young bochur” you were easier to inspire. and yes Rav Gifter is no longer with us nor is Rav Schwabb. in 30 years they will say I remember how inspired we were speakers back in 2020 like R’ ——— z”l
i’m not quite sure what the fact that you have grown more jaded has to do with the rest of your post“Is this pure Torah event or a massive fundraising event? It can’t be both.”
It has to be both
while Torah will pay a lot of dividends in the olam haemes. all the Torah in the world will not pay for one seat in citifeld let alone renting the entire stadium, and all the cots involved .
The Torah event has to be funded by the rich Gvir (its cute that you think they weren’t there in 1990 when you were a ypung bachur, I hear that you didnt realize it then, but to still be that naive looking back?)the Title and OP are completely different questions
IIFT
Just to make sure the conversation is clear.
The discussion was whether the severity of an act is ALWAYS determined based on the aveira.
KY initially said yes. to which we came up with over 2 dozen exceptions (to be fair KY said he thought I meant we NEVER judge the severity of an act based on the aveira which is of course nonsense as there are multiple explicit gemaras that say we do) .
My discussion with Ky has now shifted a bit, as to whether we can come up with these exceptions on our own. I don’t have a great mekor for that (also “on our own” is hard to define. Obviously Dovid Hamelech or chazal coming up with a sevara doesnt mean we can, but what about the Kitzur? I would say if he can then we can, but I grant that reasonable people can draw that line in different places , so our excellent conversation fizzled a bit .
Thus when you say ” this refutes your contention Remarkably”
I’m not sure what you mean.I have proven that severity of an act is not always based on the severity of punishment by compiling over 25 exceptions (sure we can quible on a few but most are solid, and some are even pesukim)
This is no longer the point of dispute (and again IIRC KY said it never was)IITFT
It doesnt .
“the very Foundation which everything else upon Is Avoda zara”
HOW did they know that.You cant say they knew that “from the severity of the punishment”
Because they are using the severity of Avoda Zara to prove the severity of the punishment.The chachamim are saying sekila is worse BECAUSE it is the punishment for Avoda Zara.
how did they know avoda Zara is so bad?
You can’t say because it gets Sekila which is the worse punishment.Again, and Ive said this probably a dozen times, yes the two are related . what I’m saying is that the severity of punishment does not ALWAYS indicate the severity of an aveira . and here we have yet ANOTHER proof.
On page 2 of this thread we compiled a list of 24 exceptions
We can add 25 ) onoas devarim (according to the kitzur) mentioned above
and 26) Avoda Zara which as you we know is the worst of aveira IRRESPECTIVE of its punishmentAs an aside Ive asked this to KY a few times but havent gotten a clear response. Is it your position that its a worse act for someone to hit someone (gets malkos) than to maim him (pays mamon) ?
“In every shul I’ve been too over many years, ….while the Rav of the shul nearby is davening w/o tallis over his head, …”
In EVERY shul youve been to, the Rav doesnt cover his head with talis during dvening?
I find that hard to believe
“What section of the VTL are they citing on the violation?”
I’m guessing 375(3)
“3. Headlamps required pursuant to the provisions of subdivision two of
this section may be of the multiple beam type designed to produce more
than one distribution of light or of the single beam type designed to
produce only one distribution of light.
Provided that, whenever a vehicle approaching from ahead is within
five hundred feet, or when approaching a moving vehicle from the rear
and within two hundred feet of the same, the headlamps, if of the
multiple beam type, or the auxiliary front facing lamps, if the vehicle
is so equipped, shall be operated so that dazzling light does not
interfere with the driver of the approaching vehicle, or the vehicle
being approached, and, whenever the highway is so lighted or traffic
thereon is such that illumination of the highway for more than two
hundred feet ahead of the vehicle by lights on such vehicle is
unnecessary or impracticable, the headlamps, if of the multiple beam
type, or the auxiliary front facing lamps, if the vehicle is so
equipped, shall be operated with the lowermost distribution of light in
use.”CG1994
“How do you expect people to see and drive safely? ”
By following the rules, and dimming their high beams when oncoming traffic is headed that way.“Again-what is oncoming traffic on the Thruway?!?!”
Cars going in the opposite direction. when you are going north the cars going south are oncomming. .When you are going south the cars going north areoncoming“. Regardless of the feet there is quite a divide.”
divide doesnt block light.” Anyone tried fighting such a ticket??”
what would your defense be?
so far your only defenses are that you didnt know the rule and that you dont like it. neither of which seem compellingSorry you deserve the ticket
It is blinding to oncoming traffic and quite dangerous
from NY DMV guidbook (available online) “Be considerate when you use your high beams. Your headlights must be on low beam when you are within 500 feet (150 m) * of an oncoming vehicle or within 200 feet (60 m) of a vehicle ahead of you, even if the vehicle ahead is in a different lane. You should also dim your lights for pedestrians who approach you. Any fog or driving lights your vehicle has must be arranged, adjusted or operated to avoid dangerous glare to other drivers.”
* NOTE: NOT 20 FEET !!!!
Ive never gotten such a ticket because it is something that most drivers know not to do.
Ubiq how does that show the power of תשובה ?
I doesn’t . My comment didnt make sense
I grant I dont understand the Mishna berura. Why is onoas devarim any different than say stealing (or any bein adom lachaveiro)? Both involve being over a lav thus involve an element of bein adom lamakom and lachaveiro ?
At any rate back to the subject at hand 2 points:
a. So fine youve shown that the mishna berura argues on the kitzur, at most that gets rid of exception #25
b. how do you explain the logic of the kitzur according to you this line וּגְדוֹלָה אוֹנָאַת דְּבָרִים מֵאוֹנָאַת מָמוֹן, שֶׁזֶה נִתָּן לְהִשָּׁבוֹן וְזֶה לֹא נִתָּן לְהִשָּׁבוֹן, זֶה בְּמָמוֹנוֹ וְזֶה בְּגוּפוֹ. makes no sense, since that isnt how the severity of aveiros are determined ?I’m also not clear on how you understand the mishna in sanhedrin. HOW did chazal know Megadef and A”z are among the worst aveiros?
KY
אִלּוּ לֹא הָיְתָה סְקִילָה חֲמוּרָה, לֹא נִתְּנָה לַמְגַדֵּף וְלָעוֹבֵד עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה
HOW did the Chachamim know that Megadef and A”Z were worse?
According to you we know a aveira is worse based on the punishment. Here you see the EXACT OPPOSITE. The Chachamim know that an averia is worse irrespective of its punishment!! Concluding that the punishment must be worseAt any rate, we seem to be going backwards
youve already agreed that there are exceptions to the general rule. Our argument is now whether we need a source for the exception.
Eg do we need a source to tell us that maming someone is worse thann hitting, or can we say that mesvara
A great approach is to ask. eg ” I thought wearing a hat is a halacha, why arent you wearing one?” that way you don’t come off as confrontational, if they dont have a good explanantion they might realize that (at least youve pointed itout) and if they do , and if you listen to the answer you might learn something.
Everybody wins!
Hard to imagine it’s from to more חמור ones
And yet it is.
Wow! the Power of teshuva. what a well timed lessonGut yohr to you as well
can EY really assume that the U.S. will respond with military force if it is attacked?
Of course not. Who has ever assumed that?
Another relevant source.
whats worse onaas mammon or onaas Devarim?
According to your paradigm mammon is worse since it has a worse punishment.
Yet see Kitzur 63:1
וּגְדוֹלָה אוֹנָאַת דְּבָרִים מֵאוֹנָאַת מָמוֹן, שֶׁזֶה נִתָּן לְהִשָּׁבוֹן וְזֶה לֹא נִתָּן לְהִשָּׁבוֹן, זֶה בְּמָמוֹנוֹ וְזֶה בְּגוּפוֹ.Precisley BECASUE there is no ability to pay back makes it worse. and violating a body is worse than money .
and that is regarding “mere” words. al achas kama vekama our discussionGH
That would defeat the entire purpose of not sitting next to womenI’m not sure why my other comment isnt going through it sees benign
KY
“No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.”taht is “tainted” sometimes following “western values” IS a Torah value.
“דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור”
surely that is a quintessential torah value.
now what determines what is “דעלך סני ” Is there an objective list in the Torah?
Put another way imagine the following
“ploni parked in two spaces so I hit him”
“wow thats uncalled for”next day
“ploni parked in two spaces so I cut of his legs”
Omg thats psychotic and you should be locked away”Is this reaction really keneged the Torah?
would you say, oy your tainted by western values in a perfect world youd be more upset by hitting than cutting off legs ?
KY
“No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.”Though in this case it isnt “tainted” sometimes following “western values” IS a Torah value.
“דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור”
surely that is a quintessential torah value.
now what determines what is “דעלך סני ” Is there an objective list in the Torah. (which is what you were originally maintaining ie hitting a person is worse than maiming is worse /stealing which are are worse than meanes )
Or is the severity of an act determined by society (note: not the punishment)Put another way imagine the following
“ploni parked in two spaces so I hit him”
“Omg thats crazy and uncalled for”next day
“ploni parked in two spaces so I cut of his legs”
Omg your psychotic and should be locked away”Is this reaction really keneged the Torah?
would you say, oy your tainted by western values in a perfect world youd be more abhored by hitting than cutting off legs
KY
“No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.”taht is “tainted” sometimes following “western values” IS a Torah value.
“דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור”
surely that is a quintessential torah value.
now what determines what is “דעלך סני ” Is there an objective list in the Torah. (which is what you were originally maintaining ie hitting a person is worse than maiming is worse than stealing is worse than rape )
Or is the severity of an act determined by society (note: not the punishment)Put another way imagine the following
“ploni parked in two spaces so I hit him”
“Omg thats crazy and uncalled for”next day
“ploni parked in two spaces so I cut of his legs”
Omg your psychotic and should be locked away”Is this reaction really keneged the Torah?
would you say, oy your tainted by western values in a perfect world youd be more abhored by hitting than cutting off legs
Im not sure how your borubon example is different than my picture example
I’m not sure what your adding with your bourbon example, it is the same as my picture example
“I didn’t read the original post but I have to bring up a very important point that ”
nailed it!
Very well done!KY
“i dont believe it is the outlook in the torah”when it comes to bein adom lechaveiro why would the severity of the act be determined by the Torah.?
Just like there is no passuk that says stealing a poor man’s sheep is worse than a rich. It is something you know.
Is it kenegged the Torah to be more outraged by a person who stole a poor man’s only sheep than one of the rich man’s dozen?
” The distinction between what the Troah would want in ideal world with no feelings” and the world we live in where our thoughts are perception of slight is framed by western thought is not a real division. It is one you contrived.Its not like well ideally the poor person wouldn’t care so much and Dovid Wouldn’t have been so strict but he caved to Western (or its equivalent) pressure.
For example. Is there anything inherently wrong in making a certain gesture with a finger that is widely considered offensive? If someone did it to in the dor hamidbar I doubt anybody would have batted an eyelash. Yet today, I’m sure you agree making such a gesture to anybody certainly an adum chashuv is an averia . Why? Just because western society tells us that it is rude?
Yes!
Or going back to my last example. If I destroy a family heirloom that has no market value, do you think my act is less severe than stealing a few bucks?
Or the example I keep giving, could it really be that maiming someone is less severe an act than hitting?
If you say yes,In the ideal Torah world , ie based on the Torah’s outlook, hitting is more severe than maiming, destroying something a person values that cant be marketed is not that big an aveira, and stealing a poor man’s sheep is just as bad as a rich ones.
then MAYBE I could hear your tzad.but that doesnt seem plauisible, the Torah was meant for people, with feelings and emotions yes beis din shel matah can’t always punish based on these external factors, but that doesnt change how severe the aveira is. . yes punishments generally are more severe for more severe acts, but this is not always true.
“that has been my point all along that we have been mushpa from western thought”
Of course but that isnt necessarily bad.(I’m gonna ignore this comment “but in a pristine torah only world it would not be that way” That in a pristine world girls shouldnt mind being ne’nas and just get over it to paraphrase IITFT’s comment that I’m not sure who it is directed against becaue I’d rather end on a high note. )
IITFT
“are you going to acknowledge what a slippery slope that is”I’m not sure who this is directed to .
The second point was directed at me but you clearly havent read my targets ”
I’m talkign about the mashal not the nimshalGH
I’m all for that
If a post isn’t intelligible skip it.
If you have a more thought-provoking question, reply to the OP and then ask yours or acknowledge that you are not addressing the op but have this other (hopefully related ) pointIts odd when OP asks
“Is a bears fur, soft like a cat,…”and somebody replies well in an emergency every second counts.
Goldilocks
“I don’t see how the driver’s intentions would be clear to the homeowner”SO ask the OP, hey remeber when you said “If someone is waiting in his car in your driveway while he dropped someone off at a simcha hall to say mazal tov and waiting for the person to come back.” how did you know thats what he was doing?”
KY
Its not you. CT lawyer’s post had absolulty nothing to do with the thread He realizes that now so is feigning umbrage so that he doesnt have to admit, that obviously parking long term in a driveway has absolutely nothing to do wit waiting in the car. similarly the emergency comment was equally foolish.ITs similar to people who call out misspellings.” Ha you wrote ‘apologising’ you’re obviously wrong” no logical person thinkls that makes sense, is an out, to end discussion.
I like the arguing, the arguing is an end in itself so I have no reason to do that
KY
I’m referring to R’ Michel Shurkin, he is B”H alive and well“Plus In one he also created hardship to the victim so it’s worse”
YES! Exactly. Of course Beis din can’t punish for the “hardship” but the SAME ACT can still be worse based on external factors like hardship.
“But if I ask you which is worse breaking your window or killing your sheep, and the monetary value is the same. How would you answer that?”
I would answer it depends on the circumstances. If the sheep was the only source of livelihood and now the guy is bankrupt obviously the sheep is worse. If the guy had thousands of sheep and a few sick ones got killed then destroying a window might be worse (I’m having a hard time coming up with a plausible scenario for the window being worse but hopefully you get my point)
“Rape is mostly an emotional crime. So yes today it’s a total horror.”
YES! exactly. Very emotional! probably even life changing!
Thus much like Dovid Hamelech’s case Aveiros are NOT judged SOLELY based on punishment. The “hardship created” is factored in as well. You quoted from the sifsei chachamim that rape is a form of gezel.Without question the “hardship created” by rape is worse than a pen being stolen. Thus although the punishment is less (or even non existent as it would be for stealing < shava peruta) the averia is still much much worse.
KY
Imagine a priceless family heirloom, say a pictue of a Great granfather or something. Obviosuly it has zero market value. Nobody would pay a cent for a picture of some old guy .Are you really suggesting it is a bigger averia for me to steal 10 bucks from the guy than to destroy the picture?
BTW
“And if society would not view it that way, it would not create such emotional pain and it would no longer be so terrible.” this is true for most bein adom lechaveiro aveiros. hitting is only an aveira if done “derech nitzayon” acording to the Rambam, if I let then most hold it is allowed. Stealing obviosuly isnt stealing If I let. but even if you can (strongly) assume that I would let, like having you do a mitzvah with my stuff, or something nobody is makpid on, you can “steal.” I dont remember the rayah but I heard from Rabbi Reisman that if I let you tell Lashon harah about me you can
Murder is an exception, even if a person asks to be killed, because is suffering their is an issur to kill him. ( I forgot where I saw this as explanation why the torah had to assur killing if we would know it on our own)“can you tell me what rabbi shurkin said?
even a paraphrase is enough
but a bit moire detail than
rabbi shurkin said this”I quoted earlier.
Someone asked him Literally our discussion, if stealing gets a worse onesh than rape, does that men it is better to rape.
He replied that this was exactly the shitas sedom. They killed people by smearing them with honey to leave them for bees, the example I mentioned before “they would all steal a shava peruta to avoid being culpable.” all ways to practice not technically deserving punishment, nonethelss they are “raim vechataim L’Hashem Meod” and worse than any “real” thief.Again yes, they were right, in the sense that beis din would not be able to have them each pay back the < perutah they stole. much like we cant make the man in Nosson Hanavis’ mashal pay more * , But that does not tmake their aveira less, which is what you seem to believe
(*this is not complelty true see the Tahsbetz I mentioned at the very start of our discussion)
“avimelech was pure because as a king he had the right to take any woman he wanted”
ummmm, yes, kind of waht Isaid . thus not germane to our topic much as I said. Clearly standards for a king where different, maybe it was considered an honor to be taken by the king so women “consented” like minors today. (of course Sarah didnt fall into that category but how was Avimelech to know that)
“but im the closed minded one who does not employ critical thinking”
I apologized for that. I was wrong. you are looking for ways to downplay an aveir, sort of a minuval “birshus HaTorah”“i never got your issue with hitting vs maiming so i have no comment on that”
According to the punishment rubric laid out by the Rambam , maiming someone (money) gets less of a punishment than hitting (malkos) thus it is less of an aveira.
My neighbor whose leg I chopped off thinks this is absurd. But according to you I did the right thing by opting for the lesser aveira.
this is the same as your position then when ploni changed his mind and instead of stealing a pen raped someone, he did a good thing (realtivly) by not doing the worse aveira“sorry they are not pesukim
they are the idea quoted in hebrew”got it
“why did dovid hamelech feel that way? because he felt that stealing from a pauper is worse than staeling from a rich man
much as i would assume the same thing”YES YES YES!
Nailed it!
In other words severity is NOT determined solely based on onesh. You too agree with Dovid hamelech that stealing from a pauper is worse!“but were i to execute someone based on that id be a murderer”
Yes obviously“has nothing to do with our topic”
Has EVERYTHING to do with our topic. your entire premise was built on greater punihsment = greater sin. Unless we had a source telling us an exception.
Here You now on your own that stealing from a pauper is worse , much like Dovid Hamelech knew on his own too. (Of course unilke Dovid You cant do anything about it, but that isnt my point, at the moment)“it strangely leaves one type out”
Totally strange!“youd say thats because its so horrible its obviously worse than any of the others”
I said that as a possibility, I’m not sure I buy it.“you keep harping on the quantity of exceptions as if thats meaningful. its not.”
Of course it is, a rule with 24 exceptions isnt strictyl speaking a rule. AND the fact that this question is rarly even raised when the exceptions are raised further proves that it isnt an absolute rule.goldilocks
“How is the homeowner supposed to know that the driver is there for a Simcha?”
READ THE OP!!!Why are people commenting with all sorts of irrelevant nonsense like emergencies? Or what goes on in small towns in Connecticut ? Or people leaving their cars.?
“Multiple of one sin is worse than single of the same sin.”
Yes you said that and replied commanding the murder of 6 million is one sin. sacrificing five kids r”l to molech at once is one sin.
At nay rate even if you do take this approach that you are being forced to take. SO I guess stealing $1,000,000 is worse than 1 perutah. ?“We don’t decide הלכה based on that.”
I’m not talking about deciding halacha.
Again back to the beginning. What started theis conversation was ““Most people I have asked this to seem to lean more to the western feelings on this topic and have a rough time accepting that the Torah doesn’t view it that way””that if someone views rape as worse than theft that was keneged Hatorah. Becuase the punihsment isnt that way.
I have amply proved that this is not true. You even agreed that this isnt always true“Kings can basically do what they want. Can’t learn out from them.”
Yes you keep saying that. but WHY? Why? did dovid declare him to death? Ive asked this over and over?
Are yiou saying he was a king and did what he wanted with no reason?WHY did he say the thief was worthy of death? if all he did was stole, why death? Why ? why why?
I dont know how to ask this any clearer.
Yes Beis din obliviously wouldnt have killed him, that wasnt my point.“I asked if a rabbi actually said my question /position is so odd base even in סדום they wouldn’t say it.
You responded by telling me the story of סדום
?????”I responded directly ““Did a rabbi really say this???” more than one.” 2 Rabbonim said similar things ( more recent one said in sedom they wouldnt ask it, Rabbi Shurkin years ago said that that was a classic sedom question, and was EXACTLY their thought process)
BTW in case you feel that you are wasting your time here. you’ll be pleased to know I took your guidance to heart/. Yesterday someone was blocking my driveway. I was about to hit him, but was able to control myself and work on my midos and opted for the lesser aveira instead chopped of his legs Of course he doesnt think that this averia is less. but what does he know, he is tainted by western values..
at any rate I really would like to understand how you understand Dovid Hamelech. Yes he was a king, and since we arent it has No HALCAHIC bearing. But dovid said the person who stole the ani’s sheep deserved death. WHY? Was this arbitrary? Are yo usaying dovid felt the ALL theives deserve death?
WHY did dovid say he should get killed?Goldilocks
“can be suspected of having harmful intentions toward the homeowner.”
Is that really a common practice?
People drop off others at a simcha hall to say mazel tov, and while waiting for them to come out they pull into local driveways planning harmful things towards the homeowners?
“Are you quoting something?YES PESUKIN IN CHUMASH”
forgive me, my copy is defective. I cant find these pesukim :
פרעה ואבימלך נענשו על לקיחת שרה בע”כ
כמה פעמים כתוב
אשת אברהם
בעולת בעל
עף פעם לא נכתב מילה על הא דלקחה לענס אותה!!! הלא דבר הוא.
נענש על כוונתו. אבל כל הטענה היתה רק מטעם אא”“TRUE BUT NOT THE POINT I MADE”
I dont know what point you are making?“it wasnt a case of nenas in the classical sense as far as I’m awareEXACTLY WHAT WAS DIFFERENT?”
I never thought of it as physical force. she was forced because he was the king. Its kind of like statutory rape. while a form of rape, it isnt the same as foriceable rape. (If I was a betting man you dont view statutory rape as rape at all ) Aye the 16 year old was a “willing” participant? There is sort of an anan Sahadi that by definition a 16 year old isnt willing. If you ask people to list rapes in Tanach I dont know that many would mention Sarah, Rivkah, and Esther. although YEs they were nenas and halachicly remained muttar. From the assailants perspective they were “willing” participants. It is hard to imagine that when Esther says “until now I was forced” She meant that she was fighting Achashveirosh every night. Similarly for Sarah.
On the other hand when it was forcible rape, the Torah is quite clear. See pilegesh bigivah. although as a pilegesh she is an eishis ish, that part is almost downplayed.
“However In heaven, they can and do judge based on grama as well, ”
Yes!
So is it impossible to beleive that in shomayim they punish a rapist worse than a thief?
Clearly you agree that IS the fact that the punishment is lighter by beis din is not the be all end all in determining severity“surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stole to spite the poor man
.No. I don’t. Stealing is stealing.”nu nu its a machloikes you and Dovid Hamelech
“A king has the right to extra curricular judgmental leeway.
So David hamelech could also punish for intent.”Again, WHY would he punished for intent? IF the “stealing is stealing” who cares about intent?
Does intent make the act worse yes or no? I cant follow your position“Ask your rav please to explain please the following”
Are you quoting something? I cant find that online anywhere
SO forcing an eishes is h is worse than a besulah. what does that proveAnd are you forgetting the story ? she introduced herself as his siter it wasnt a case of nenas in the classical sense as far as I’m aware
And even if it was, what does this prove that Avimelech doesnt hink rape is bad either. Shkoyach your in good company
As you may know shechem was punished SEVERELY for his act so I’m not sure what you are provingKY
As mentioned earlier,
YWN seems to have been glicthy lately, I’m not sure if my you noted my post (starting “Had ימ”ש been ח”ו a Cohen…”There are 2 points there that I don’t want lost:
1) Lets look at motive for a moment. Beis din is not equipped to take motive into account. surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stole to spite the poor man.
Do I need a raaya that the rich man is worse? True I have one from Dovid Hamelech, but how did HE know, was this some sort of nevuah?
Granted beis din treats them the same, but that doesnt mean their act was the same.2) you asked ““Rare or חילול שבת” Which?”
And I gave an (excellent?) answer saying better to do chilul shabbos in that case. Clearly my answer was driven to prevent the woman from getting rape. Even if you don’t like the specific answer, Imagine a posek trying to come up with a way to “protect” the woman. Is that a bad thing? Is that a sign of favoring western values over the Torah?“It’s less severe than many other sins. However the grand scale that he did the smaller sin on, adds up.”
Lol, this is a new argument. do you have a source for it? So how many rapes would be worse than stealing a pen? Is raping 6 million people worse than stealing a pen?“Do you need me to source for you the idea that one sin plus one sin equals two sins and therefore equals more punishment?”
Yes, under your rubric doing 2 aveiros that get malkos is without question “better” than an aveira that gets misa
ditto for 3, 10, 1000 etcI’m confused so if a person has a choice to eat cheilev or steal once, he should eat cheilev, twice? 10 times? 1000 times. At what point does it stealing become worse?
At any rate do you not see how you have totally abandoned your entire second premise. Namely that worse punishment equals worse sin. It now doesn’t apply if there are lots of lower sins.
but what if it was a really big “lower sin” If Hitler only said once “lets kill all the JEws” that wouldn’t be many small sins.
Or would it, just so you can stick to your untenable position ?“Don’t see how that is different than anything I’ve been saying all along”
Because it goes against your entire thesis. since inciting mass murder gets a lower punishment than stealing, according to you it is not as bad .
Put mass murder aside. whats worse hiring a hit man (inciting 1 murder) or stealing?“Did a rabbi really say this???”
more than one. I heard this from Rabbi Shurkin years ago. and more recently Rav of shul (almost verbatim the same thing both made the sedom refrence, Rabbi shurkin used the specific midrashim like they would all steal a shava peruta to avoid being culpable.
Leshitascha they were right. If a group of us rob a man blind by each stealing < a peruta. We are not as bad as someone who stole a dollar . CorrectKY
“By stating that because it’s simple and obvious to you, therefore it can’t be otherwise”I never said that. I said simple and obvious to all of us.
I f you would have said , you know I dont think rape is so bad you are making a big deal out of nothiing” we wouldnt be having this conversation.You agree rape is bad (in some posts) but not as bad as stealing
This is what is confusing me How do you know rape is bad, leshitascha you need a source. and if you posit that it can be bad without a source why is it it “western thinking” to say it is worse than stealing“A persons body is their possession”
Source please ( I dont disagree, I just cant think of an explicit source for this)“Not sure where you got that conclusion from.
I’d be saying that the fact that he is pattur is indicative of the lessening of severity and I’d ask why just like they do”Noooooo! I thought you got it. No one that I have seen asks why is killing lal children less of an averia than killing one . not a one, you are making this up. I’m open to be proven wrong o f course . if you could provide ONE such example . but the question yo uare attributing to them is absurd as is your position.
They DO ask why does the more severe act get less of a punishment, much liek I asked the same regarding rape. But nobody that I have seen even contemplates as a hava amina that killing all children is a better act“As I said, the ראשונים can say that. I and you can’t.
You can ask anything you want ”Yes! nailed it! So they were allowed to think and we are not. I ve heard this before it is EXACTLY what I was refferign to . A lack of critical thinking.
You are 100% entitl;ed to your position. We cant think for ourselves and without an explicit source tellign us rape is bad we cant know its bad (luckily you claim to have found a source rape is bad based on yusing guf, but if not you wouldnt know rape is bad, correct?)but be clear on thsi point. You do not beleive we can think for ourselves. Everything needs a source, if not for a gemara telling us thorns are prickly we wouldnt know it. If not for a source telling us Rape is bad or worse than stealing we wouldn’t know it.
I can live with this position of yours. but be clear and bold dont be wishy washy“That’ entire סוגיא is the gemarah on its own.
Had the Torah specified use from the סנה it never would have said can’t be.”Right weve covered this. But the Torah does not say to use a sneh, nor does it say rape is not as bad as stealing. And before you cite a “rule” as the Torah saying that, you’ve tried that and there are dozens (literally) exceptions. thus not making it a rule at all. But this is just review weve covered that.
My point here is, youre claiming that if that if you wanted to make a halachic argument based on a thorn being prickly you need to prove a thorn is prickly. “you probably would if you tried to base a halacha on it and i challenged you””
Here the Gemara just takes it as agiven. Not one amorah, rishon, achron asks wait how do we know thorns are pricklyIITFT
” Why is rape seen a crime worse than torture or murder?”
Its not, but unfortunately murder is not that unusual. what happened to her is still unusual. (though I’m learning not that big a deal relatively speaking, certainly not as bad as having a pen stolen” I think the left with its female-driven agenda has managed to create this special category of sex offenses.”
and there I was thinking the left was supporting everything goes hedonistic free for all society. hard to keep up1. It is not a one time occurrence.
Amazing! You get so many easy mitzvos!2. Driver is talking on the phone which when on car speakers can disturb people sleeping in house.
Thats unacceptable. tell him to hang up or leave.
Also you need better insulation it isnt normal to hear conversations in a driveway in your home, you probably will save on heating bils to.
But again that in no way absolves him from the responsibility to keep it down3.when driver is backing out (street is busy) can cause a lot of honking which can disturb people sleeping.
That sounds like a reach of an excuse to aoid an easy mitzvah. Its the yetzer harah talking, it doesnt seem real.4. Streets are busy with cars and pedestrian traffic so it will take the driver sometime to back out. Which means I need to wait some time to get out of my driveway (if in hurry can be a big deal).
how long? 10 seconds? 30 tops?
A bit clearer? Totally!
There is no good reason to stop him.Though I still dont understand why he doesnt do the more typical blocking of driveway (while staying in car)
thats the craziest thing Ive heard. If hes staying in the car? why on earth would anyone ask him t o leave.
that said, parking in the driveway is a bit unusual, blocking driveway is more typical (while staying in the car)
KY
YWN seems to have been glicthy lately, I’m not sure if my you noted my last post (starting “Had ימ”ש been ח”ו a Cohen…”There are 2 points there that I don’t want lost:
Lets look at motive for a moment. Beis din is not equipped to take motive into account. surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stole to spite the poor man.
Do I need a raaya that the rich man is worse? True I have one from Dovid Hamelech, but how did HE know, was this some sort of nevuah?
Granted beis din treats them the same, but that doesnt mean their act was the same.you asked ““Rare or חילול שבת” Which?”
And I gave an (excellent?) answer saying better to do chilul shabbos in that case. Clearly my answer was driven to prevent the woman from getting rape. Even if you don’t like the specific answer, Imagine a posek trying to come up with a way to “protect” the woman. Is that a bad thing? Is that a sign of favoring western values over the Torah?KY
“Are you maybe starting to get the idea that your critical thinking may be fallible. And maybe just because it’s simple to you, it may be off base anyway ?”
Hold up of course its fallible. I’m not even sure were I implied otherwise. you see this is were I’m getting mixed messages. You say “And maybe just because it’s simple to you, ” But it isnt just me. It is everybody! Even you at times claim you agree “Nobody is claiming that rape is a good thing” So you also think it is bad. How do you know? Do you have a source?
More to the point, do you need a source?“You mean maybe to ask what would I say if the sources were not there?
Well I’d have the same reaction as they did.
How can it possibly be so that this is less severe than that??”Yes! Ok we are cooking you are getting it. Sometimes things are so obvious that even in the absence of a source we know it to be true.
“We don’t need s rayah that a thorn bush is prickly.
you probably would if you tried to base a halacha on it and i challenged you”thats crazy. Aaaand I proved from a Gemara that that is not the case. when the Gemara asks how can a thorn bush be a hadas if derachea darchei noam? The Gemara DOES NOT say “prove a thorn bush is prickly” such a question would be absurd. The Gemara accepts it and moves on.
“Of course it’s worse. Aye why no punishment? I don’t know. Who cares
Move on”Who cares?!?!?!
what on Earth are you talikgn about. Of course we care! its baffling! All with no exception who address this come up with some explanation.
NOT ONE says eleh mai, killing one is better. such a position is impossible. IT makes no sense. It goes against all reason.In other words when faced with our dilemna: How can a (seemingly?) obviously worse aveira get a lighter punishment?
EVERY SINGLE ONE who answers explains why .
Not one , makes your conclusion, eleh mai its not so bad . Not one.“The mitzvah no longer exists? How can you be oker something from the Torah?”
Lol Neturei Karta’s entire raison d’etre is to be oker the Torah
“Had ימ”ש been ח”ו a Cohen.
And if he did תשובה and your hypothetical that he never actually killed anyone, would you say he cannot דוכן ?”It would be in beis din’s right to prevent him.
See the Tashbetz I cited at the beginning of our discussion, that beis din can make rules as they see fit.
“But from a strictly single issue point, would ב”ד be able to punish him for the acts of killing which his orders caused?”
first of all yes as mentioned.
Secondly we arent talkign baotu beis din per se.Lets go back to the beginning of our conversation.
It started with this quote of yours
“Most people I have asked this to seem to lean more to the western feelings on this topic and have a rough time accepting that the Torah doesn’t view it that way”Your position was (is?) since the torah doesnt give it a severe punishment it isnt so bad.
You seem to have come around somewhat “In דיני שמים unquestionably he is rotting permanently.”
Even though based on punishment is act isnt so bad. Something tells you that although technicly he may be able to get off in a beis din. his crime his still terrible, if not actual murder “it’s just one step below murder.”I dont know if you have a source that tells you this, my point is you dont need one. We all have a G-d given sense of morality. Why isnt there an onesh beis din for incitining mass murder? good question, and it needs a teiritz, (I’m sure you are aware of the whole sugya divrei harav etc) . but the fact that there is no onesh doesnt mean it is a low crime.
If a person murders with no witnesses it isnt a lowly crime.
If a ben sorer umorer’s parents don’t have the exact same voice his crime isnt mitigated. (or is it?)
The Torah gives dinim how beis din and society functions. and delinates this person gets an onesh and based on techinicalitys that person doesnt.Lets look at motive for a moment. Beis din is not equiped to take motive into account. surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stoel to spite the poor man.
Do I need a raaya that the rich man is worse? True I have one from Dovid Hamelech, but how did HE know, was this some sort of nevuah?
Granted beis din treats them the same, but that doesnt mean their act was the same.We can take this further. whats a worse aveira, working on shabbos to feed family that is starving (not to death) or eating neveila lehachis. OF course beis din’s punishment for shabbos is far worse. but I’m pretty sure in olam haemes the mumar lehachis is far worse. Practicly this doesnt matter I cant think of a nafka mina, but the atttude changes
you asked ““Rare or חילול שבת” Which?”
And I gave an (excellent?) answer saying better to do chilul shabbos in that case. Clearly my answer was driven to prevent the woman from getting rape. Even if you on’t liek the specific answer, Imagine a posek trying to come up with a way to “protect” the woman. Is that a bad thing? Is that a sign of favoring western values over the Torah“If I’m so far off base you should have no problem finding multiple sources stating that even though there is no punishment clearly spelled out in the Torah, you should know that this sin is terrible”
I provided 2 dozen such examples. Though not for this specific case.
Hitler is a great question.
In דיני שמים unquestionably he is rotting permanently”How do you know?
“You think it’s worse to order someone else to do it???”
No why?“Because now your mixing multiple issues,
causing the word “worse “, to take on multiple meanings that are at odds with each other.
There is worse as in who is a bigger lowlife.”Yes! I mentioned this point earlier in our threads
“Moloch is doing the same act repeatedly.
It’s not 2 times Moloch is worse than one so how can it be patur.”So tosfos sort of asks that question, (he asks why isn’t he chayiv after the first kid) tosfos answers either he only has one kid or sacrificed all at once (iirc)
So, according to you. We have two people one has 2 kids the other has one. Both sacrificed one kid. The one who has no other kids act is not as bad (less than stealing a pen) than the one who has another. Correct?“One thing I learned is
First “what does it say ”
Before you discuss, understand, question,…
Make sure you know what it does and doesn’t say.”Oh totally but if it doesn’t day otherwise you can use seichel. Yes if the Torah said rape isn’t so bad we wouldn’t have this conversation. But using our fickle minds is encourage d. We don’t need s rayah that a thorn bush is prickly.
“but I won’t demean him by bringing him in here to get smeared by others, ”
Don’t it’s lashon hara to mention his name.
(Though doesn’t the fact that you don’t want him demeaned negate his thesis a bit? Who cares what people say or how bizzare the position is if right stand by it 🙂 )Reb eliezer
“he question in Binyan Tzion 170 was about learning about an illness by autopsy for other similar illnesses that might occur.. ”
You are mistaken the Binyan Tziyon argues on the Nodeh beyehuda and never allows nivul hames for pikuach nefessh (unless had permission ahead of time) . He has 3 teshuvas all in the same area. he is quite clear on thisYes most argue (though none make the case that the OP made, “of course killing is worse it has a worse punishment”)
“And I don’t recall dodging any questions, She is not over לפני עוורShe is entitled to save whatever is more important to her however she wants It’s not her issue”
I also asked whether a bystander can say “dont rape her steal that money instead”
“Rare or חילול שבת”
Which?”Probably be oiver chilul shabbos, but I’m not sure
chazal allowed oiver a derabanan for kavod habryos. This is at worst a derababonon, is obviosuly not melacha hatzricha legufo, and the fact that he is an oneis might make it less than that. (I just thought of this sevra and am quite proud of it, you have to admit its not bad)For arguments sake, lets say he should rape, ok so ?