ubiquitin

” Sorry for the harsh words, but it needs to be said.”

Absolutely no apology necessary. you have no clue what you are talking about, and your post is riddled with emotion devoid of fact or logic. I understand completly where yo uare coming from.

“Stupidest argument, because you can say it by any patient who gets better after taking medication (perhaps he would have gotten better)”

Yes of course we could and we do!. thats why we do studies
Are Ace inhibitors good for Hyperteinsives with proteinuria? Studies how they are. What about Arbs,? studies show they are. LEts combine them for a super medication seems like a no brainer? Wrong! studies show combining them leads to more harm.

Does HCQ help Pts with Covid19? Maybe some anecdotal reports say yes other say no. Lets study it. Whats the harm in giving it? So for some youre right there is no harm as IVe said several times ) for most harm likely outweighs the benefit.

Maybe schmear butter on their heads, it cant hurt. My neighbor did it to all 9 of hr children and they are al fearing fine. Anybody who doesnt schmear butter on their heads is evil. Negating her treatment because of lack of available tests is foolhardy. sorry but it had to be said

““Dr. Vladimir Zelenko said that in 699 COVID-19 cases, there was a 100% success rate.”

that isnt a study. He is an outpatient physcian. He (by definition) sees the walking well. A “study” that tells us 100% of coronoavrius patients who arent sick don’t get intubated doesnt tell us much of anything if at all.

similarly say I saw 699 patients all of whom took HCQ + zinc + z pack and most have unfortunatly passed . would that be a reason NOT to take it ?
of course not. those patients were much sicker

Put another way what would have happened to those patients if they didnt take his regimen? Keep in mind the vast vast majority of those infected do just fine (which is part of the problem ironically ) who is to say that they (like most patients) wouldn’t have done just as well?

anonymous
“promising and if a patient is dying,what is the risk in prescribing the drug?”

As Iv e said, The patients that IVe seen are apretty much all on HCQ. As I said in my first post “That said for a sick patient the benefit (possible survivial) outweighs the risk so might as well give it.”

“Have you used it with the z-pack and zinc?”

Yep used it with everything can think of – (to be clear I’m usually not the one ordering it )

but again, I see the sickest patients (I’m a nephrologist I get called when multiple organs ie kidneys are shutting down) . so that has zero bearing on healthier patients. thats why we need studies

“A tzibur is a corporate entity, not an ad hoc minyan. It has a continuing existence, ”

Mehichi teisi?

Or in modern parlance, source please.

I don’t find that mistaber at all, if you have a source I would defer to it. But to me it would seem If the tzibur didn’t gather there is no tzibur

wouldnt moshiach coming before PEsach make the seder more besimcha?

Agree

“You’re doing it again.”

doing what?

” I don’t disagree with any of what you write”

Great. that is ok. People dont have to disagree. I’m not sure why that is a problem.

” but it is NOT an answer to the claim you are tying it to. ”

I’m not sure what claim you think it is tied to. (I posted it in repsonse to ” whats the big deal?”) This is a thread about DNR’s against patient’s wishes (see the OP) . My point is that By choosing one patient over another, then by definition you are making the patient you don’t tend to DNR even against his/family wishes.

“. You cannot make a comment that a doctor subscribes to letting old people go to save the resources for young people based on a situation that does not in any way illustrate that point”

It depends on how you define resources. If time is a resource then it is an example. If not not you dont have to agree with said example. Again though that wasnt what this thread is about if you dont think time counts as a resource fine then this isnt an example.

. You are bringing “supporting evidence” that describes an in the moment need to address two individuals, viable and not viable, and chosing viable with deciding to leave supplies in the storage room just in case a younger person happens to need it. ”

Sadly it isnt “just in case” It is for a certainty. See The Teshuva by Rabbi Shechter .

“For example, viable vs non viable (your scenario) does not mean old vs young.”

Without question this is true. though in tends that way. but you are of course correct.

” There was no such young person there at the time.”

I’m sorry to hear about that unacceptable incident. but is not the situation we face today.

“THAT is an example of letting the elderly go to save resources for the young.”

This thread is not about ” letting elderly go to ave the young ” it is about making a patient. DNR against their wishes. My quoting Eli was NOT to say he was “letting elderly go to save the young” ( again that isnt the topic of this thread) I quoted him to dispell this notion that blood is being banked for later, and items being “left in storage” there are 2 cardiac arrests an hour tending to those alone would leave no time for anything else. There is no room in the ER, patients are kept in chairs. Yet some people are under the impression that they “leave supplies in the storage room just in case …” THAT was what I was trying to dispell.

“The doctor that posted this does not subscribe to the notion of sacrificing older patients so there are more resources for younger more viable patients.”

My family knows him quite well.
And Of course he does. Though he (and I) probably wouldn’t describe it that way)
When he has 2 patients crashing at once one has been on vent for past 2 weeks and getting worse the other just showed up and had been stable until now.

How does he decide who to help?
Does he flip a coin ?
Of course he chooses who he thinks is more likely to benefit whether consciously or subconsciously

yid
“, you just repeated what i said.”

when I typed my comment yours wasn’t up yet

” whats the big deal?”

i’m not sure what you are referring to

But as to the big deal

here is a report from a frum emergency room physician

“I spent 24 of the last 36 in my ER.
It’s an absolute nightmare.
I personally intubated 3 patients in just under an hour.
We have over 400 patients admitted with coronavirus- 82 of them on ventilators.
To put things in perspective, My ER which is built to have about 80-100 patients, had 172 people ADMITTED with covid 19- crammed into spots, corners and crevices. And all of our ICU and step-down units together can usually handle 50 patients. We are managing ventilators in hallways.
In 22 years of medicine, I’ve never seen the staff look this tired- physically and emotionally drained. At least twice an hour we hear the call overhead that somebody upstairs is in cardiac arrest. This acutely exacerbates our distress. People that we were caring for are dead 12 hours later.
30 year olds. 50 year olds. 70 year olds. Nobody is spared.
We are at the breaking point .
We are out of space in our hospital.
We are out of space in our emergency room.
I was caring for a woman with an oxygen level at 64% and I had to have her sitting in a chair for an hour until I could find a stretcher.
Multiple doctors in the hospital are out sick with the virus.
I’m caring for patients in their homes and as long as their oxygen level is above 90% I’m trying to keep them from going to the hospital.”

I can attest to every word.

This is a very big deal

“Is our community okay with this?”

no of course not! who could be “ok” with any of this?
that said we and they don’t have a choice.

Please everybody keep doing your part, stay home as much as possible. I’ts hard to describe what is going on in NYC hospitals

Reb Eliezer
“סיג לחכמה שתיקה”

Lol, there is no chochma in this thread.

“That in it of itself would be suspicious to suddenly remove it all. ”

Lol! so let me get this straight. Removing video – suspicious
posting the video – suspicous (thats what tipped you off after all)

“Why is it so hard to believe that the virus was made in a lab?”

Its not at all. But based on what? the fact that disease experts who have studied pandemic and have had several conferences discussing potential pandemics discussed one?

“Theres also a reason why Bill Gates “conveniently” stepped down from Microsoft”

You lost me, whats the reason?

“so how did they “know” about the “next pandemic””

rightbright
becasue thats their job. They have been warning of it for years. There is a reason why the CDC had a pandemic office that Trumop got rid of since it hadnt been used. NOBODY in the medical/scientific community was surprised by this. Pandemics happen. IT wil happen again this is a certainty maybe in a year, a decade or a century but there will be another pandamic at some point

At some fool (who obviosuly isnt a conspiract theorist) will say “look ubiquitin was behind it he predicted it back in 2020 on ywn” .

question for you though ? why would they film this event and release it cant thaey use their powers to shut down the internet? or at least suppress the evidence if they can shut down the world economy why cant they shut down a video?

thanks

The truth.
” its a kulah to daven btzibur?!”

100%
It is a big kula to take risks wwith people’s lives for a minyan. I am not a posek, so I’m not telling you its assur. but now is the time to be machmir, try to be mehader in your avodas Hashem. The Mitzvas hayom is to protect life. Look for hiddurim in being as safe as you and they can be.

” its a ZECHUS not to daven btzibur?!”

no, its terrible not to daven betzibur. how this comment fit in

Theres a lot of confusion on this thread.

“Can Chometz be sold virtually? ”

No, a sale requires a kinyan, mot kinyanim require both parties (He might be able to do a chazaka on karka aquiring chometz with kinyan agav alone)

now, most of us don’t sell our chometz. We appoint the Rav to sell for us. That appointing of a Rav, pashtus DOES NOT require a kinyan, sure in most yeas we can be “mehader” to appoint the rav wit a kinyan, but as most poskim do’t require that , the Rav can be appointed virtually.

“Again, I’ve only asked questions; I’ve at no point implied anyone’s”

You must be very concerned that your comment was misunderstood , myself, Yserbius , mammale , GH and others so misunderstood your comments.

BTW, I was notified that I should expect to work in the emergency room, I am not an emergency room physician and have never trained as one. We are reaching that point.
This does not happen every flu season. (or nay flu season)

” Are you saying that if one year there were 50% more seasonal flu hospitalizations that normally that the US hospital system world collapse?”

I’m not a epidemiologist, but i’m fairly certain they all showed up within a short time period, yes I’m pretty sure. how many empty beds do you think hospitals keep lying around ?

The hospital I work in’s ICU is full. critically ill pts are bein managed on regular medical floors .

I’m curious what’s formulating your opinion, is there a single doctor that says its no worse than the flu? You claim to believe in daas Torah at thsi point, even Daas torah is no longer “poo pooing” the situation?

At any rate, how many deaths would you say, ok this is more than the flu ?

Bh. Let’s keep it that way!

You see Joseph
Klal yisroel loves Hashem Batei medrash and shuls are packed to the brim with people on top of ech other. This is obviously a beautiful thing.
Unfortunately when there is a disease spreading this is a bad thing.

On the other hand Klal yisorel has no inteest in restaraunts, these places are always desolate , פיסט און ליידיג so there is no reason to close them .

Though, at any rate as far as I’m aware restaurants (at least in my neck of the woods) are open for takeout only. they ARE closed for dining, Is this not the case where you live?

There is no obligation for sheva berachos.
If during the week after a wedding ten men gather to celebrate with the choson and kallah., then they say sheva berachos if they don’t get together they don’t. There is no obligation to get together for this purpose.

I dont really understand what you are adding with your last post.

“My point is only that things we think are not so bad are actually worse.”

Yes absolutely! very well said. THAT is what the chafetz Chaim is telling us Lashon Hara which we are all accustomed to as the Gemara says “hakol beavak Lashan hara” is much worse than we realize. THAT is exactly what he is telling us. Not that it literally is worse than rape Obviously not that its worse to tell people someone was raped who wasnt than to actually rape her. such a contention is absurd. He is telling us that Lashon harah is worse than we realize, not that Lashon hara is worse than rape.
Nobody would have a hava amina that to get back at someone he would commit znus (a contention that doesnt really fit your paradigm so well) so so too we should treat lashon hara.

And obviously it isnt literal. since the motzi shem ra that gets an onesh is a very specific case that couldnt come up today. (We dont have naarah hamorasa’s walking around) Lashon hara never gets an onesh beis din (yes it gets tzaras but so does gassas ruach and wait for it …. gilui arayos which we learn from Paroh and SAra! Arachin 16a) By using the strict severity of punishment metric Ones gets the worst (would have to pay tzar and boshes) spreading rumors true or not , gets NO punishment listed in the Rambam’s hierarchy of determining severity. You might think (As we see in practice) that lashon hara/motzi shem ra is no big deal. So the chofetz chaim is using poetic license sayin g . NO it is horrible it like rape which you wouldn’t dream of doing , becasue we all know its horrible “יתבונן בנפשו אלו היה היצר מפתהו לילך לבית הזונות, האם היה שומע לו? בוודאי היה גוער בו: לך מעלי מלפתני בעון, שאהיה עבור זה מתועב בעיני ה׳.”
Does he say the guy says “wait I shouldnt rape because i’ll owe money” no of course he doesnt.

Another point you seem to be struggling with is that circumstances change the severity of an aveira. Not all lashon hara is the same, not all theft is the same. True Beis din treats the poor man who stole bread to feed his family the same as a rich man who stole bread out of spite., but obviously they are not the same. (as we showed from Dovid Hamelech in case you need a rayah for this obvious point,) Similarly Tazadikim are held to a higher standard eg Reuvein’s getting involved in his father’s sleeping arrangement was considered very severe, the Torah compares it to one of the gimel chamuros. For us it would barely be an aveira. what onesh is there for moving our father’s bed?

Severity is not strictly determined based on onesh. Motivation, yetzer harah, intent, and the outcome all play a role . Yes beis din isnt equipped/empowered to take all those factors into account, but don’t worry the Ribon shel olam is.

“It gets צרעת”

Correct.
Which is not in the hierachy of onshim as identified by the Rambam.

“I guess we are talking different languages.”

“How else can you possibly read the words of the ח”ח ??”

Its making a point. It isn’t literal. This is not uncommon when comparing aveiros or mitzvos. As you know several mitzvos are listed as being “keneged kulam” talmud torah, Tzitizis shabbos come to mind., obviously they are not all literally keenged kulam. THe Gemara Bava EMtziah says better to be thrown into a furnace than be mevayesh someone (which doesnt even have an onesh!!! I believe this was one of our exceptions) the Meiri tells us (Berachos 43b recent daf yomi) that this isnt lteral (though most Rishonim DO seem take it literally) . The Gemara BK 119a says א”ר יוחנן כל הגוזל את חבירו שוה פרוטה כאילו נוטל נשמתו ממנו Obviosuly this isn’t literal. The Gemara says being mevazeh chol hamoed is like Ovoda zarah ( I lost track of exceptions I think we are approaching 30) Would you even entertain the possibility that if a person was on his way to work on chol hamoed he’d be better off just stopping in church worshiping oso haish? I’m sure we can come up with many more such examples.

Moreover your example Basically says what I’m saying. He takes it as a given “He is saying it’s simple that nobody in his right mind would go be מזנה just because he is angry at his friend.” Obviosuly NOBODY would think that would be the better option.

The chofetz Chayim never even entertained what you insist to be true ” מוציא שם רע is worse than raping someone.” NOBODY would rape to get even with somebody. Unfortunate we do look at motzei shem ra as “not a big deal” So to make a point he highlights how bad it is. Of course he doesnt mean it is better to be motzei shem ra

You must find this line ” אם יפתנו היצר מחמת כעסו על פלוני שילך ויגנהו בפני אנשים ויוציא עליו שם רע, יתבונן בנפשו אלו היה היצר מפתהו לילך לבית הזונות, האם היה שומע לו?” Very puzzling! Of course people would Be ones/Mefatah whatt’s his question People say Motzi shem ra all the time of course they would do the not as bad aveira!

” it’s absurd to say the fellow downgraded his evil status by actually raping the girl….”So to me it seems odd. Big deal!”. ”
Your position isnt t “odd” it is completly illogical and nonsensical. The chofetz choyim takes it as a given that NOBODY would entertain such a possibility.

“Ubiq I just now saw that you answered.”

Thats ok I was worried what you would reply.
Luckily you didn’t answer you dodged.

I’m confused by your response though by saying he was meanes, why is that making him a rasha? Is int that BETTER than what you think of him (ie you think he was motzei shem rah, by your understanding isnt he saying I’m not THAT terrible (relatively speaking) I’m just a rapist ? (interesting kler, I dont want to get side tracked, Ill rephrase)

At any rate thats a dodge,
Suppose 2 eidim come in and corroborate his version? NOW is he a less of a rasha than you first thought?

I’m fine if you don’t want to answer

“So then I’m not sure your position. … we generally assume that is so unless it doesn’t agree with my personal moral compass? ””

Yes I think thats fair, though I would substitute “my personal” to “our”
We proved along time ago that the Ribono shel olam instilled a “moral compass” in each of us. Eg even if we were not metzuva in shfichas damim, we would be expected to know not to do that .
Generally severity of an act is determined by the punishment. however as we have seen there are many exceptions.
when a seeming exception arises we dont necessarily assume our moral compass is off. for example Molech nobody assumes that killing all children is better than kiling one. that isnt even a hava amina . why doesn’t the onesh reflect that? good question and one that absolutely deserves an answer but that killing multiple children is better than 1 is simply an impossibility. More to the point, we don’t even need to PROVE that its worse, it is obvious or God -given seichel, our instilled moral compass tells us of course killing several children is worse than one, now we have to understand why the onesh doesnt reflect that.

2 people: Revein publicizes that Shprintza is a beula (not true he was motzei shem ra)
shimon publicizes that Genedel is a beula (true because he was meanes her but not motzi shem ra)

Obviosuly both are reshaim.
Is it possible that Shimon is better than Reuvein ? Do you really have such a hava amina?

I note your hesitation to answer this question when previously posed , and I am happy that I seem to have given you some pause.

KY

“But In dealing with that one specific instance I learned that unfortunately this is way more common than we would like it to be.”

Well said, and obviously this is not something that would ever be advertised. We B”h have a large community and are growing. Unfortunately that means very rare problems become more common in the aggregate.
These problems include rape, and teenagers crossing the line.

“What were the underlying reason the Rov(s) permitted the abortion(s)? Why did the parents want the abortions?”

The reason the these heterim were given was combination of it being less than 40 days (“maya bealma”) with the fact that their lives would be destroyed potential resulting in physical harm to them . I don’t know of any case past 25 weeks. Most of the cases between 40 days and 25 weeks involved families with a lot odf children at home carrying a child that could not live too long , would put a big psychological strain on the mother.

If you say they are rare enough that allowing the millions of abortions to take place is not a price worth paying, I hear but I disagree.
If you say that the law can be crafted in a way to allow these exceptions, I don’t really hear that but I see why someone might think so.
but to argue that these things don’t exist in our community, doesnt make sense and won’t make them go away.

“I believe דינים allows them to be more מחמיר than the Torah. Not more lenient.
Ubiq seems to disagree”

Thats not my disagreement. I never said they are allowed to abort, I say thats not our (primary) concern.
And I’m not saying it “sits well with me” either.

“I call your bluff. Name the Rov and what he said.”

I’m not sure by “what he said” he, excuse me THEY allowed (in some cases encouraged) abortion to proceed) Who doesnt matter, at thsi time If it rch”l comes up speak to a frum OB and he or she will guide you.
Until then tell yourself that it never comes up in our community, that everybody is pure nobody makes mistakes with life destroying consequences, no marriages are strained by bad news during pregnancy and I’m making it all up just so I can continue abortions on demand (as If my discussion here is of any practical consequence)