Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Ready now
“I am writing now, that, “chance”, can be said of any study, that is the point of aggregating numbers of people who all have very different susceptibilities into a result.”Yes! you are writing this now, but I said that on the first page. That is why ideally you randomize and blind the participants (and even the testers) Of course even this doesn’t eliminate chance. In every study there is a small element of chance (look up “p value” if you want more information). But Dr. Zelenko’s “study” is close to worthless, in terms of using it to extrapolate data. This is exactly what Ive been saying all along
“How do we get from a loack of kovod hatorah to braindeath?”
conversations often switch. Though this one isnt really about brain death. A poster got me excited about the existence of a psak, allegedly “famous,” by R’ Moshe “against using brain death to determine death”
Unfortunalty, it turns out he was lying, and no such psak exists famous or otherwise.
At least not by R’ Moshe Feinstein (which I guess he could claim he never meant, he can always claim he meant R’ Moshe Sherer, or R’ Moshe Honigkvetcher, and if anyone mistakenly assumed he meant R’ Moshe Feinstein, well we need better reading comprehension)This thread is a bit silly
Of course we COULD do without many things. doesnt neccesairly mean we should. Most of us went at least some time without any minyan. I dont think anyone would suggest” Wow we managed without minyan I guess we could do without it”
Similarly i’m a bit lost why because we survived without “Going to the parents/ in laws for Yomtov” is trying to add. I mean sure we survived without but a. did anyone really think otherwise and b. so what ?“The frum people who work in the following industries are delighted that Rabbonim speak out against what they do for parnassa,”
This is easily one of the strangest things posted on this forum
If people waste money on something silly. It doesn’t make it ok just becasue some frum people are making a parnassa out of some silliness. And if it isnt waste then it isnt. If you think 10,000 people (or however many it is ) traveling to lizhensk is a good thing say so, and perhaps explain why. but if it is a waste of money, it doesn’t become good because someone makes a buck of the sillinessOk B”h hospital seems to be past its peak things are on the downswing.
you?yserbius
I realize that you probably know this, but Joseph is lying “the letter from Rav Sherer that I submitted to this thread (see the above discussion and acknowledgement from ubiquitin) discussed Rav Moshe’s Psak on brain death.”
The letter mentioned does NOT discuss R’ Moshe’s Psak on Brain death (also worth noting Joseph initlaly said “Rav Moshe famously issued a Psak against using brain death to determine death.” for him to then claim he meant an unpublished psak alluded to in a letter by R’ Moshe Sherer, a letter which is not easy to find…. I mean to call that a stretch requires stretching the word stretch.)
The letter is R’ Sherer recalling a meeting with R’ Moshe in which he accused R’ Tendler of misrepresenting R’ Moshe’s opposition to A Brain death bill in NYS. The outcome of the meeting was a letter (written in 1976) R’ Moshe wrote to Assemblyman Miller (this is easy to find online). Tellingly R’ Msohe does NOT say in the say he rejects brain death, in fact in the letter to Assemblyman Miller he ENDORSES brain death “the sole criterion of death is the total cessation of spontaneous respiration” (He did however have strict criteria to how the testing is to be done)As to
“Can we have a vote to simply stop listening to @Joseph and responding to his trolling? ”
I like it its fun.“This whole business of looking good by the Goyim is completely secondary, if even that much.”
Unclear what “if even that much” means
It is important to “look good by the Goyim” *It has lately become fashionable in some circles to deny this for whatever reason.
However 1) definitions can change even if it technically isnt a “kiddush Hashem” it clearly is still a good thing
and 2) we find it called Kiddush Hashem by Risho0nim. See Rambam Gezeila 11:3 אֲבֵדַת עוֹבֵד עַכּוּ”ם מֻתֶּרֶת שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר “אֲבֵדַת אָחִיךָ”. וְהַמַּחֲזִירָהּ הֲרֵי זֶה עוֹבֵר עֲבֵרָה מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהוּא מַחֲזִיק יַד רִשְׁעֵי עוֹלָם. וְאִם הֶחֱזִירָהּ לְקַדֵּשׁ אֶת הַשֵּׁם כְּדֵי שֶׁיְּפָאֲרוּ אֶת יִשְׂרָאֵל וְיֵדְעוּ שֶׁהֵם בַּעֲלֵי אֱמוּנָה הֲרֵי
זֶה מְשֻׁבָּח*That said most of “kiddush Hashem” stories are idiotic, and if anything serve to highlight what a low opinion some people have of Heimish yidden. Wow amazing a Yid said good morning and didn’t slam the door in a person’s face what a Kiddush Hashem!
ready
“as you keep saying most patients infected with COVID 19 do not get sick or recove”This is a fact, that I was not aware was in dispute. Are you saying otherwise?
“But we are trying to avoid deaths so it would be better to intervene earlier if it will make a difference ”
100%!
but there is a critical caveat in that sentence see if you can find it..“Dr Zelenko had 2 deaths out of 1450 patients”
This is a very misleading claim.
He only gave his treatment to 450 inclduign those who didnt meet inclusion criteria is not typicly how study data is reported.” In the 405 high risk group a mortality of 5% would have been expected but 2 people died unfortunately, much less than the 20 expected.”
how do we know it wasn’t chance? How do we know it wasn’t something else about them?“From “Doctors warn coronavirus causing blood clots and sudden strokes in young healthy patients”:
Im not sure what these last 2 paragraphs are addingMamale
” I think you’re missing a critical point, or trying to oversimplify this. ”
It IS quite simple:
There is not enough data. period Dr Zelenko would probably agree. (though hed add what do we lose, which is a fair point as IVe said from the onset)“he key point being repeated in news articles is that most YOUNG & HEALTHY people will recover. Dr. Zelenko is only medicating those with pre-existing conditions, advanced age or both”
Most OF THEM recover too! Sadly not as many as the young and health y group. But I havent seen any data that >50% of those with pre-existing conditions, or advanced age who get infected succumb. Have you?“Yes it’s true only a clinical trial blah blah blah will give us a true picture”
That is all Ive been saying I’m so glad we agree.“I wasn’t paid to teach you elementary school English”
Sadly nobody was. I went to a chasidish elementary school… this is what happens .
“nor am I responsible for those lacking minimum language skills who misread a very basic posting.”
Of course you arent responsible. But most people would be bothered if their post was so misunderstood by several people, and would clarify. ESPECIALLY when asked to.“The title of the post …”
I wasnt just referring to just the title. In your OP there is no question. There is just an “innocent observation ” tha many posters, some who agreed and most who didnt interpreted differently than you claim you intended“Capish?(I could repost this in Yiddish if you think that might help you.
Dont worry. I got it 100%. No need to repost Yserbius got it too.
In fact most of us who have read your posts over the years got it.joseph
Lol!
You STILL won’t clarify what you meant.
and it wasn’t just me at least 4 posters understood you to be downplaying covid. I grant that in my rush to share my wisdom, I don;t proofread as I should, and that often results in difficult to understand postings.
but I’ll always clarify (and again and again if needed as history has shown often to a fault) . you wrote a post that (you claim) was misunderstood by multiple posters, and you won’t clarify, so you cant really fault me for a lack of reading comprehension.“I won’t make an issue over your writing, spelling, sentence structure and logical abilities.”
Thanks, plus that would be needlessly distracting .“There was never any “implication” whatsoever;”
Are you concerned that several posters so misunderstood your post ?
” merely questions. Nothing more and nothing less.”
There is no question in your OP. (unless it is an implied question in which case why not elaborate)“Regarding Rav Moshe’s Psak on brain death, last evening I posted a letter from Rav Moshe Sherer ztl on that”
Apologies, if you are referring to his letter 9/18/91, I’ve seen it. I thought you meant a psak from R’ Moshe Feinstein not R Moshe Sherer. My apologies, I guess that was poor reading comprehension on my part.Joseph
” a question is not a statement.”not quite true. A question can eb a statement or even an answer.
Eg Question. Should I trust Joseph on Cornovirus? Answer – Do we ever trust him on anything ?Eg #2 Question: Is coronovirus worse than flu?
Answer yes it is much worse becasue xyz
Questioner: but is it really worse ?The implication of the second question is “I dont believe you regarding xyz”
At any rate I never said “a question is not a statement” yoiu inferred that. Much liek the implication of your posts was that Covid was not that big a deal (as was pointed out several posters made this inference and you STILL havent clarified)
in your post you weren’t asking any question. Look at your OP and title no question there. you just implied “innocently” that the flu was worse than Coronovirus ” so far the annual epidemic of seasonal flu in the United States is proving much more devastating than the coronavirus.”
Then when posters pointed out why covid was worse yo udidnt say “thanks wow it is”
you asked other “questions” even though they had already been answered.When you were asked to clarify as clearly so many misunderstood your post, you stopped posting.
Here is another opportunity to clarify.
what were you trying to accomplish with your post, Lets start with op . you jotted some factoids about covid vs flu. what was the point of that? Just sharing some knowledge? you say you were “asking questions” I dont see a question in the OP what was the point of that thread?Joseph
In fact, I said nothing of that sort.”
You certainly did
See your multiple comments in this thread “coronavirus-versus-the-seasonal-flu” (link below)
Now granted you didnt type the words it is “just the flu” but you clearly tried (more than once) to highlight how it was no different than the flu. and when multiple posters there ( Yserbius , mammale , GH , myself) all (mis?) understood you as downplaying covid19 you didnt care to clarify
(as an aside this is a prime example of your trolling. you are right you never actually said covid was “just the flu” but you deliberatly tried to stir doubt, and consternation. Even when it was clear that you were being “misunderstood” you didnt bother to clarify that “of course its worse than the flu, yo ujust are trying to understand bla bla… thank you for your answers I see it is in fact worse” you doubled down just “asking questions” even once they were answered )
I’m curious if today you think Covid 19 is worse than the flu? “And there’s been 20,000 flu deaths so far this year in the United States. So as of now approximately 20,001 coronavirus deaths would be more than the number of flu deaths,”
“Rav Moshe famously issued a Psak against using brain death to determine death.”
where can this psak be found ?
I checked with R’ Dovid and R’ Reuvein they are not aware of it either It doesn’t appear in igros Moshe is it in a private stash of yours?“https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/coronavirus-versus-the-seasonal-flu
ready now
“That is the point. ”
I don’t understand your point. The patients Ive seen were also on HCQ “before they got that stage”
As I made clear from the onset. I don’t initate treatment for COvid, im a consultant who gets called in if/wehn they develop kidney problems. Almost ALL the patients ive seen have been on HCQ + zinc as soon as they showed up to the ER with fever/SOB/hypoxia etcLet me try a new approach
A There are patients who get HCQ and get better
B There are patients who do not get HCQ and get better
C There are patients who get HCQ and do not get better
D There are patients who do not get HCQ and do not get betterI assume you agree that all 4 of the above patients exist. Please correct me if this assumption is incorrect.
Dr. Zelenko has seen mostly group A and as such is a strong proponent of it
Does that prove HCQ helps? Of course not If not for HCQ, what group would they have been in B or D ? Without more data how can you know. (keep in mind the vast vast vast majority of patients B”H fall in Group B)I have seen mostly those in group C does that prove HCQ doesnt help ? of course not. These are aptients who almost definitely would have been in group D
ready
“From an article on ywn today-‘ It seems that some otherwise improving patients experience rapid deterioration….”
We are going in circles. Yes Ive seen many many many such cases. but again vrtually ALL of the ones Ive seen HAD been on Hydroxychlorquine + zinc (and originally on azithromycin)
I have seen them go downhill, and fast in spite of the above. Dr Zelenko hasn’t Neither his experience nor mine puts the issue to rest.
We need studies. I’m not sure why you are having trouble with thisSyag
Agreed. no question the varying presentations is bizzare. And while GENERALLY younger/healthier tend to do better I have seen too many in their 40’s and younger with “no past medcial history” unfortunalty not doing well (in spite of HCQ + zinc)
The data from china obviosuly has to be taken with a heaping mound of salt, but I think the picture will become clearer in the coming months (though granted probably not compltly)Syag
“Ubiq – is the extensive kidney damage you have seen a side effect of the covid or is the virus attacking the kidneys?”
nobody seems to know for certain. (There was just a webinar by ASN – leading nephrology group in the US, just last night!)
The prevailing thought is it is a side effect due to patient being in shock, low flow state leading to ATN (Acute tubular necrosis, sort of the similar to a heart attack but of the kidneys) most biopsies and post mortems have supported this.
BUT
I (and all colleagues IVe spoken to) have seen many many patients who’s blood pressures were not that sick (ie not in shock,) but with rapidly failing kidneys far out of proportion to their overall presentation.
the SARS-CoV-2 is known to bind to a receptor found in the kidneys (Ace2) and some theorize that it may be directly attacking that way
Another theory is that these pats seem to be hypercoaguable, menaing have a high propensity to form blood clots . could they be forming tiny blood clots int he kidneys?Jersey Jew
“Dr Zelenko has success with almost 2,000 people. I’m sorry I don’t remember the exact number.”whats your source for that. Last I heard it was a few hundred. and on Dennis Prager recently he said he treated 1000 patients which included 2 groups the low risk and high risk only gave high risk so agian yo uhave a few hundred patients with mild syptoms (though at high risk)
where do you get the almost 2000 people ?
ready
” but you ubiq see the end game when it is almost, just almost too late, but still not quite too late.”
I dont know what end game you are referring to
start a charity campaign
ready now
“Ubiq, you wrote:
“Also, not only is Dr. Zelenko …” No I didnt write that ”However it is an excellent post and I agree with it
“He says the negative side effects are “theoretical in his experience.”
Then he needs more experience. (and raises questions about his supposed checking their EKG’s)” but look as though they might need hospitalization if he doesn’t treat them immediately.”
not sure what that means. This is a nonesenical claim and is one that you made up .He is treating those at high risk but mild symptoms who may have covid. period.
does this mean it works for all? – Of course not
does this mean it is safe for all – Of course notdoes this mean the benefit outweigh the risk? – Maybe not enough data
It happened so that people can further their favorite pet causes
for example:
I think it happened becaue Hashem had enough of klal Yisorel ignoring/downplaying the tremendous beracha that is the internet. so He forced us to stay indoors leading many to finaly partake in this tremendous gift . young and old men nad women it is beutiful to see so many appreciatign this beracha . Otzer hachochma, zoom shirum and classes the shivtei shiurim, Torah anytime yu torah amazing1
ready
So please what are they giving?
There are several concurrent studies going on so there is no set regimen
HCQ without antibiotics but with zinc?
Yes that is one group , (unless there is a specific indication for an anti biotic but azithromycin is no longer being used as a “default” treatment for covid 19)“Why don’t you contact Dr. Zelenco”
Because I dont have any question for him.“Yes, until the quote of yours that I rehashed above in this post, you have ignored zinc.”
I’m not sure what you mean. do you have a question about zinc that I overlooked? What have i ignored ? what about zinc ? Here is some information about zinc “Zinc is a chemical element with the symbol Zn and atomic number 30. Zinc is a slightly brittle metal at room temperature and has a blue-silvery appearance when oxidation is removed. It is the first element in group 12 of the periodic table” If there is any specific question that you have about zinc Id be happy to help if I can.“8-12 hours from Dr. Anthony Cardillo”
Fantastic, as I said that is not my experience, and DR Cardillo says not to give it to the patients Dr Zelenko is giving. Seems starnge that in a thread as to why not all doctors are lsitening to Dr Zelenko, to support listening you cite A Doctor who says not to do what he is doing. A bit confusing.“for recovery from Dr Zelenco,”
There was no recovery for Dr Zelenko these were well patients who didnt get sick. Now thats importnant and a great thing no doubt, but not “recovery”“You Ubiq said that your hospital is not medicating coronavirus patients.”
nope I never said that.
In fact I said the EXACT OPPOSITEFrom my FIRST POST “I haven’t found it to be working”
you asked: “Have you used it with the z-pack and zinc?”
I replied “Yep used it with everything can think of”“Please confirm what your hospital is doing for these patients”
when this thread first started almost all ddmitted patients were getting HCQ+zinc+ azithromycin
From my experience they were not doing well. Again, my experience is not at all generalize-able (much like Dr. Zelenkos) as I see the sickest patients, as I said in my first post
currently there are several trials going on including HCQ (yes with zinc but not with Azithromycin anymore unless superimposed bacterial infection is suspected), Remedesivir, convalescent plasma.“Those Dr Zelenko treated were technically all sick”
Again, they had minor symptoms so it depends what you mean by “sick”“Why wouldn’t he be doing that, he is a Dr with a brain.”
Because that is a lot of EKG’s Hes on the news so much Its hard ot see how he has time to evaluate all these patients plus get and read EKG’s for all of them“You are yet again avoiding the zinc!”
I dont know what you mean“Dr Zelenco had at the time several hundred patients on his “quick, fast””
If they need to get eKG’s and have them read, it isnt ” quick, fast”ready
Hold up you lost me
Lets rewindThis thread started with the OP asking “Dr Zelenko is having success wit hHCQ why isnt everyone using it?” (not a verbatim quote)
I replied that His data wasnt necessarily convincing nor applicable to all patients , and given that HCQ t oall is not without its downsides Not everyone is ready to follow him
With me so far?
Then you joined in with a bunch of comments not necessarily realtyed to the subject at hand. Yet for soem reason addressed to me
you introduced a study highlighting the risk of HCQ (as I said)
You cited a Doctor advising AGAINST giving HCQ to thhose not sick (agaisnt Dr. Zelenko)“The zinc is apparently essential, and you have also more or less side stepped that issue”
i’m not sure what you mean I havent side stepped anything. so give zinc gezunterheit“and patients should be carefully watched for heart problems, as well as screened beforehand.”
Is Dr. Zelenko doing thatAs an aside, my hospital stopped giving Azithromycin along with the HCQ and zinc given the high number of QT prolongations occurring
“So if more people would be more informed they would not be so against it.”
hopefully noone in a position to prescribe it is going to do so, or not do so, based on a post on ywnAnd again, as Ive said from the onset Im not “against it” let alone “so against it” I’m just poitning out to the lack of data.
You have done zero to chane that other than provide a studtyy highlighting the RISK of HCQ and a doctor advocating AGAINST giving it to the walking well“So if more people would be more informed ……. That is the point. Okay?”
sure but why are you addressing it to me?
“The Dr here in the latest video I have cited sees a cure in 8-12 hours”
Lol you do realize he says “we should really reserve it for people who are really sick” (at the 50 second mark) So thank you for finding yet ANOTHER doctor who disagrees with Dr. Z (the subject at hand)
I’m still not clear on what your point is.
for the10th ? 20th? time I never said not to take, it nor that it doesnt help with or without zinc. That isnt the subject of this thread“Please see a youtube video entitled:”
sure will,
but before I do, what will it show, what are your trying to prove?“PS in the Brazillian study, there was no zinc, and HOQ was not used”
YOU cited the study. I have no idea what you were trying to show, or what your point is.
“This thread wasn’t supposed to be about Gemtrias! can we please stay focused everyone?”
focused on what your OP included 3 debatable points ( 1) We know that the Jewish people had to be in Egyptian slavery under the rule of the pharaoh for 430 years. 2) It is known that our world must exist for 6000 years. This is the deadline for the coming of Moshiach and the onset of Liberation. 3) the last day of 5780 will come on September 18, 2020!)
and combined them to some nonsense
This is not much different than people using gemtaria for all sorts of nonsense (There are gmatrios showing both donald Trump and Barack Obama are moshiach)“while before then we never heard of such a word as pandemic. ”
Lol no YOU didnt (and Trump obviously) but the rest of us did
“Definitely not under Obama. ”
then you didnt follow the news H1N1 was a pandemic under Obama
“There is a difference between “warning” (hinting) about a pandemic before something happens and speculating or investigating an occurrence “AFTER” it happened.”
that contrived difference is EXACTLY what someone who spread covid19 would say. You are only further proving your culpability
“So…where were all the warnings, precautions, mock pandemic preparedness, meetings and gatherings, accusations and reactions during obamas term or leading up to it?”
There were plenty:
Warnings/ precautions :
Obama 2014
” “The funding we are asking for is needed to keep strengthening our capacity here at home sp we van respond to any future Ebola cases….. We were lucky with H1N1 that it did not prove to be more deadly…. They may and likely will come a time in which we have likely both an airborne disease that is deadly. And in order for us to deal with that effectively, we have to put in place an infrastructure – not just here at home but globally – that allows us to see it see it quickly, isolate it quickly, respond to it quickly.”Bush 11/1/05
(this whole transcript is worth a read)
Pandemic flu is another matter. Pandemic flu occurs when a new strain of influenza emerges that can be transmitted easily from person to person and for which there’s little or no natural immunity. Unlike seasonal flu, most people have not built up resistance to it. … At this moment there is no pandemic influenza in the United States or the world, but if history is our guide there’s reason to be concerned. In the last century, our country and the world have been hit by three influenza pandemics,… A global influenza pandemic that infects millions and lasts from one to three years could be far worse.
Scientists and doctors cannot tell us where or when the next pandemic will strike or how severe it’ll be, but most agree: At some point, we are likely to face another pandemic.mock pandemic preparedness, meetings and gatherings:
Atlantic Storm was held in 2005 it simulated a smallpox spread orchestrated by terrorists
Black ICE (Bioterrorism International Coordination Exercise) similar to the above held in 2007Anyway I’m not sure why we are even responding didnt we prove (using your “logic” ) that you were behind the covid19 outbreak?
rightwriter
I’m not sure if youre being serious but your posts are making less and less senseYou say “ya but not on this scale, those were more like outbreaks than pandemics.”
Fauci never said on what scale the pandemic would be he predicted there would be a pandemic, as there had been avery couple of years.
your whole “tayneh” was “Dr Fauci stated in Jan 2017 that during Trump’s administration there would be a pandemic. STRANGE.”
no not strange. Pandemics are not that rare. you say “but not on this scale” true, but he didnt predict the scale
“If in fact this was lab-made, many of those who “warned” us even years in advance surely had a hand in this.”
wait a minute…. you were one of the first I heard to say it was man- made. so if in fact it turns out to be man-made this PROVES you had a hand in it.
There is no other possible explanation. you are clearly behind all of this“but they were also giving two cardiotoxic antibiotics, ”
They give ceftriaxone and azithromycin
Azithromycin (like HCQ) is known to cause QT prolongation. Dr. Zelenko too gave Azithromycin“and they did not eliminate patients for having prior cardiac problems (for the purpose of the study).”
Neither did Dr. ZelenkoAt any rate this is way of topic.
If you like the study (that was halted early) go ahead and give low dose HCQ.I’m not interested in a discussion as to whether HCQ is efficaicous or not (since there isnt enough data)
The topic of this thread. Is solely why not everyone is following Dr. Zelenko’s reported success.Joseph
“He’d order all government agencies and personnel to refuse to interact or inform any information to Biden or his people anytime between election day and inauguration day, thereby leaving Biden blind to what the state of government or national security is upon assuming office.”And this is the man you support?
“Dr Fauci stated in Jan 2017 that during Trump’s administration there would be a pandemic. STRANGE.
not really. recent presidents faced a pandemic (depending how you define pandemic)
Obama Ebola (2013), MERS (2012), Swine flu (2009)
Bush SARS (2002)
Reagan HIV (1981- still ongoing)why would you think Trump would be different ?
“You can calculate a gematria by adding (if necessary) a kolel(1) or/and osiyos, the number of letters in the word.”
Or any number you want to try to get it to fit
Make up a reason why your adding it
+ 5 for chumshei torah
+ 37 for shem Hashem + stars in yosef’s dreamJust get it to fit whatever message your selling
ready now
“No not making any assumptions, just taking what the Dr said at face value, that he is sure the ones he treated were coronavirus.”
and thats fine. I’m not trying to dissuade you from following his advice. that is not the topic of this thread.
“Oh, by the way, have you noticed that the TB vaccine may also be useful?”
Yes. (“MAY” being the key word)“They are NOT using an untreated control group.”
The article refrences “Chloroquine diphosphate in two different dosages as adjunctive therapy of hospitalized patients with severe respiratory syndrome in the context of coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) infection: Preliminary safety results of a randomized, double-blinded, phase IIb clinical trial (CloroCovid-19 Study)” They are studying the safety of High dose HCQ.
and here is the kicker…. they found it WAS NOT safe, and they halted the trial early!
Did you read the article??
That’s your proof that everybody should take HCQ??
how baffling“It is zinc that does the final knockout to the virus! Where is it?”
a. The Zinc wont make the HCQ safer
b. SO dont use HCQ alone, use it with ZINC. I’m not sure what your point isReady
“No, he gave the regimen to people who showed symptoms.”
Yes fever, cough these are vague symptoms that may or may not have been covid19.
“b) If any sick people would not have been given his regimen, some may have died, has v’sholom.”
How do we know that
This is precisely my point. How are you still repeat ing this, are you reading my comment s?
I addressed this so many times.“c) By not giving the regimen to sick people who later do “fine”, he is exposing them to death as he cannot foretell or predict who will become sicker and then die.”
See above
“d) You are asking for sick people to not be treated, for the sake of a “scientific study”, when it is known that the medication, in a life and death scenario, does on occasion work. That is not good, in the real world.”
I’m not asking for anything. I’m not sure where you got this from
DMB
“1000 random people with symptoms came to him.”
If they came to him, by definition it isnt random“That means everyone starts off “Walking well”.”
No this is incorrect.
Some get a fever, others start out with significant shortness of breath and hypoxia. There are increasing reports of anosmia (lack of smell) being the sole symptom still others have no symptoms at all.Look at it this way. some people find out they have it when they are crashing in the ER. Others find out when they have mild symtpoms and go to tget tested. Stil l others will find out in the future when they are found to have antibodies. (do you deny this?)
Are you really suggesting that these groups would all follow the same trajectory? Are you denying that there are different levels of severity at presentation.
I’m honestly not sure what you are saying, and Im beginning to suspect you arent so sure either.“The issue is that someone else reading your comments may think that there is not proven”
thats not an issue. Dr Zelenko would agree. It is not proven, his argument is what the harm, and I;m not sure I disagree.Your question was “Does anyone understand why doctors don’t want to give hydroxychloroquine…”
Ive answered it.
you think those doctors are wrong nad everybody should go to Zelenko, beseder he has been all over promoting himself don’t worry I’m not stopping anybody
I’m not sure why you are still hocking ah cheinik with incorrect statementsMamale
1. So if not the water maybe its the air. (I dont mean thsi literally I’m just pointing out ONE problem with generalizing his data)
2. “Even his naysayers don’t claim he’s not a good doctor.”
I never implied otherwise. nor am I a naysayer.“So you’d have to believe he’s clueless if you claim that because most patients weren’t tested they don’t have Corona”
I never claimed that. I said we don’t know“As a medical professional, do you need a test to show someone’s skin is pale and clammy, their eyes are jaundiced etc?”
Those are symptoms not a diagnosis. It would be pretty impressive if someone could see someone’s skin as pale and clammy and diagnose the organism that was causing sepsis“Why is Coronavirus different?”
Its not, and you (like many posters here) are missing the point. I’m not faulting him for treatign his patients as if they had corona with no test.
I am saying that (is part of the reason that ) data is therefore not generlizable3. He (by definition) is treating those wit hsymptoms so mild that they don’t need an ER . would fair just as well had they been sicker? may be maybe not (I’m not slaying they wouldn’t have I’m saying we don’t know )
“I also find this thread a bit comical,”
totally!I ma not saying anything remotely controversial . I am not sure how this is a debate.
I’m not criticizing the doctor, I am not saying it shouldn’t be prescribed (both of which I’d understand why people would get riled up)
All I am saying is why although one person may have had success, it isnt so cut and dryI’m honestly confused and slightly amused that this thread is causing so much angst.
“Look at the way Gedolim and Chassidishe Rebbes greet each other – it’s with minimal hand contact.”
You obviously don’t spend time with Sefardim or ungarisher Rebbes. I cant wait to kish di Rebbe’s Hant when this is all over
ready now
This conversation is going down some strange rabbit hole, and I am no longer sure what your point is.
To remind you we are discussing “why doctors don’t want to give hydroxychloroquine even though it is working throughout the country (lenox hill, KJ, etc.) and has almost no risk (no heart attacks have been reported even though many doses have been given)?”
THAT is the discussion
You now ask “How on earth was he supposed to use his med regimen on people who in a “random sample” might not even have had coronavirus infection?! ”
I have no idea what you are saying. a. He DID give his regimen to people who might not have it and b. We don’t know what would have happened to any sick people had they not gotten it (the vast vast majority of these patients do fine)
Again to be clear: I am not saying he is wrong. I am not faulting him for not doing a proper RCT. I am solely answering the question, why just because he says he has success others aren’t convinced.“means that it is random only in the sense that it is “first to need my services will ring my office for an appointment first”, ”
Then it isn’t random. you are selecting one area, you are selecting those with minor symptoms, you are selecting those who are more conscientious as to how they are feeling (“first to need” ) , as others have pointed out the demographics of his patients are not generalizable. AGAIN this isn’t a fault with him. It is just why this may not be generalizable.
Here is a summary of his study:
500 patients who may or may not have had Coronovirus, and who were feeling pretty well with mild symptoms took HCQ and did not die.Do you disagree with any point of the above synopsis?
Do you really not understand who some would not find that compelling?וכן נראה שאם כבר חברו את הזקן המופלג לונטיליטור, ואח”כ הבינו שלא הי’ כדאי, כי הרבה צעירים יבואו עוד, שמן
כי לגבי התחלת הטיפול החדש עבור החולה הזקן בנגוד לטפול ,DNR הנכון לרופאים לקבוע על הזקן הזה החלטה של
בצעירים, זה כבר נחשב כבאו בב”א, ועלינו להקדים הטפול בצעירים הבריאים, ואין בזה משום אין דוחים נפש מפני נפש,
כי אין כאן רציחה בקו”ע, אלא רק אי-קיום הדין של לא תעמוד על דם רעך, ובאם אין ביכולתו של הרופא לטפל בכולם
ביחד, צריך להקדים את אלו שיצא מהם יותר ריוח לקהילה, וכאמור.Above is from R’ Shachters Teshuva on the topic entitled Piskei Corona #15: Triage in Medical Decisions
secondly, ready now
“Further 737 people die taking total to 10,612 as cases rise by 5,288 to 84,279″
10,612 divided by 84,279 = That makes 12.59% death rate.”Approximately 0% of Dr. Zelenko’s patients would be in the denominator of that figure (had we been in the UK) because that is percentage of those TESTED. As Dr. Zelenko readily reports, he did NOT test his patients
ready now
“Very serious”
Yep as IVe been saying for monthsIn fact your outlier case shows just how important social distancing is.The UK at first tried doing what many here suggested, namely to isolate just those at risk, and let everybody else continue on their merry way.
“Side effects can be avoided if patients are screened for heart trouble, ”
Do you know if Dr Zelenko is getting pre and post treatment EKGs on these patients while adding two QT prolonging medications?“7% is the percentage of AT-RISK patients who die”
source please
“Apparently you don’t realize that every hospitalized patient started off as a so called “walking ill”.”
sometimes yes, sometimes no.“Just to go over it again, that means if you take a random sample of 500 at-risk people who have symptoms, about 30 should end up dying. Agreed?”
key owrds: “random sample”
“So if a Dr. Like Dr. Zelnko treats 500 random at-risk patients, ”
Yes! If he did that.but……. he didnt do that. As IVe been saying over and over HE SELECTED the walking well. He is limited to Kiryas Joel (maybe they have extra fluoride in the water that helps? maybe they have a better hospital system, it isnt random”
“Agreed? Great!”
It is great!
You finally get it. To have meaning, he would need to take a “random sample” (your words)
He didnt, thus his data s not necessarily generalizable.
Again and toeb crystal clear: He may be right (as Ive said in the first comment and about every other comment since then). but his data does not show that As YOU acknowedge by the fact that you stuck in the word ” random” which is not what happenedHealth
“I never met S/O like you before; you admitted that you’re a Nefro, not a Lawyer, ”So, I guess you dont know this but information about ALL supreme court cases are publicly available to lawyers and non-lawyers alike. Now just in case secret supreme court cases are not available, this too may surprise you but I have some friends who are lawyers , and they assured me (as I expected) that there where no secret supreme court cases. Of course it is possble that there is a super secret supreme court that only you know about , but bad news if only you know about it I’m not interested.
For some good news: I don’t practice in NJ so your safe.
ready now
“walking well” is a term that decribes people who have mild symptoms but would otherwise contiue their daily life, cough, mild fever, mild myalgias. THe VAST VAST majority of these patiens do well without any treatment.“Of all people who have symptoms 7 to 13% die, see the stats everywhere from many countries’
I cant look “everywhere” provide one such source please. Ive seen a fatality rate as high as 9% of those TESTED (not those with mild symptoms) at ncov2019
” that is the pandemic you appear to dismiss as not requiring serious measures.”
you have me mixed up with somebody else. I was among the first here who realized how bad the pandemic was (and explained to others why it is so much worse than the flu) I see the results of the pandemic first hand Ive waded through emergency rooms with barely room to walk Ive directed dialysis nurses who should get dialyssi with outr limited machines and staff (this doesnt get as much press as vents but there is a shortage of ALL medical equipment)
I cannot fathom which comment you took as dismissing the pandemicReady
“What it does tell us is that the 7 % to 13 % who would have died had they not received the HCQ with the antibiotic and the zinc did not die!”Sadly that is incorrect.
Remember he is selecting the walking well. Where did you get your figure that 7-13% of those who are walking well will die from corona?
Furthermore, in his interview s he reports most of them weren’t even tested? Who says they had corona at all?“I know – You’ve been saying that for years. But for 2 million, I’ll give you the court case.”
So this might surprise you, but the market for fake supreme court cases has crashed and I’m sorry you wont be getting much.
“And all the other doctors experiencing lower hospitalization rates. Unless they are all lying???”
At no point did I say or imply that anybody, let alone everybody is lying
“then you should please stop professing to know for sure that Hydroxychloroquine isn’t helping any early stage COVID-19 patients.”
I’d love to explain anything you have trouble with but you have to read what i wrote. At No point did I claim to know, let alone to “know for sure”, that Hydroxychloroquine wasnt helping.
In fact In my first post on this thread I explicitly said the opposite “For more moderate patients is questionable, I’d err on the side of giving.”There is no such thing as a free lunch.
IF you are using a free email service, messenging ap, social meds platform etc etc, then it should be obvious to you tha tthey are gettign something in return, namely your information.
If you dont want them to have, it don’t use itDoing my best
“Those that ignore this fact and then publicly say that Hydroxychloroquine doesn’t work”who said that?
Alittlesechel
” Lakewood is 2/3 Jewish we comparing only that segment of the population ”why only Jews?
Health
“So what your saying is – just like you couldn’t find my court case – you won’t be able to find my cure for Covid! ”No I’m saying they dont exist.
And I can prove it: no Jew would withold revealing a treatment due to fears of “competition.” So you are lying about something.ready now
” I am really not picking on you!”
Asking questions isnt picking on . ask away“But the POINT IS: you do NOT know which ones! You do not know which ones will do well without HCQ if they have symptoms.”
correct and we do not know if HCQ helps or not
So we have a bunch of patients who may or may not have done well without HCQ, and they did well with HCQ. What does that tell us? NothingNo
There is no guarantee. Coronovirus never got the memo that it isnt supposed to harm young healthy people. IVe seen many in their thirties and few in their twenties
“No, the Dr gave the med to people who were showing symptoms.”
Yes, the vast vast majority of people with symptoms do well without HCQ.
Again, I’m not saying not to give it in all cases. but his “data” proves exactly nothing.
I replied last night, I’m not sure why it didnt go through
2scents
yasher koach for your points“Now that you have revealed that you are a nephrologist, can you briefly explain why some patients that are sick with the coronavirus develop rhabdomyolysis?”
I think its like any viral ilness which rhabdo is a known potential sequale . furthermore they seem to be in a hypercatabolic state. I can dialyse patients daily and their potassiums are still through the roof .Health
“for most harm likely outweighs the benefit.””I meant in the aggregate. Say you give it to 1000 people who were healthy and were going to do well anyway. One of them gets a prolonged QT leading to torsades and dies. That is more harm than benefit you killed one person to save nobody.