ubiquitin

I don’t know the answer to your question, but I’m not sure how relevant that is. There are lots of medications regarding which we are not sure the exact mechanism. If the data supports them working then they work and if not not.

Tylenol (acetinominophen) is one of the most widely used drugs out there, yet its exact mechanism of action is unknown. I don’t think that is an argument not to use it .

One thing that bugs be though is the incessant description of Ivermectin as a “horse pill” It is FDA approved for humans (though not for Covid-19) It shouldn’t be used because data doesn’t support its use not because it is a “horse pill”
(Of course horse doses and formulations are “horse pills”)

“It’s convenient to ignore logic and go after ad hominem attacks instead…”

Lol. Is a great summary of most of your posts.

Take a look at this thread.

The OP asked a simple question:

“Question was raise about wearing a Yulmulka in a business setting, I think this is more a generational issues vs a hashkafa issue, the younger generation feeling more comfortable wearing a yalmuka in busniess setting,”

He clarifies “I am not asking about the halachik angle of this,”
meaning the wasn’t cooking for a halachic stance. It could be that all who do not wear a yarmulka are violating all 613 mitzvos with every breath and chayiv al 4 misas beis din. That in no way changes his question.

Sure its fair to point out that they are reshaim (if you believe that to be the case) or to offer possible reasons for why the shift took place (Satmar influence for example)

But the question is a fair one
If you don’t think his question is relevant (“of what relevance is there to note how someone or another feels about it?”) ignore it. I find many threads irrelevant, I ignore them. There is no law that requires you to hijack every thread with your “look how much frummer I am”-hangups, save it for your therapist

As to the OP
It does seem to be a generational divide more so than a “frumkeit” divide. I know several older doctors who do not wear yarmulkas at work while younger (even more modern ones) do.

It is easy to be frummer, it is much harder to be frum.

“Even YouTube comments on both right and left wing news ”

Yes YouTubecomments always a solid bastion of reasonablefor thinking

“This reality has changed and it will become difficult If not impossible to find truth”

Especially if you’ve already decided what truth is, and are just looking for opinions that support your narrative.

Earlier yiu said this was a fight between good and evil. I asked you this before which side would you expect R Chaim Kanievsky to be on?

UJM

“ubiq, tochacha is a chiyuv regarding any aveira. Your being able to ignore the aveira by simply not engaging in it, doesn’t absolve you from your chiyuv to give tochacha. And the obligation is upon every Jew.”

absolutely right! Thats why I’m giving you tochacha…

You, on the other hand, are not. 1) for all you know none of the transgressors are here, and 2) no aveira took place.

You need to work on yourself, take my tochacha to heart do teshuva, learn more, as you know so little about most topics you comment on (present thread included). Spend less time looking for faults in other see the good, work on your ayin Tov, work on your honesty.

It isnt too late! take this opportunity to be a better person try to “turn over a new leaf” as Rosh hashana approaches .

Best wishes for a kesiva vechasima tova

You are most welcome for my heartfelt tochacha, I know how much you appreciate it

“They didn’t do this in Europe ”

Didn’t do what? Waste their time pre selichos hocking ah kup online?

Probably true though don’t you worry, I’m sure there were drey kups wasting time then too

“Patents since the 1980s for work on the coronavirus gain of function here in the US, pharmaceuticals involved in production of the coronavirus vaccine for decades before coronavirus”

Great! So it wasn’t too quick. now you can get the vaccine, without worrying that it was developed too quickly!

Rightwriter

“The scary part is that Bill Gates warns of a new pandemic after COVID-19 which will be much worse and we are not prepared for it. Wow, really?”

No that is nt the scary part. The scary part is that in spite of these warnings, people don’t listen. Then when it happens, in stead of saying “Wow you were right, maybe we should listen next time” you say “Well I guess that means you caused it”

Same holds true for Weather like superstrom Sandy, Scientists have warned fo years that New York was going to have such a storm. It happened does that mean they caused it?

“medicine and once you have the qualifications, you can practice”

So if I have the qualifications and can’t be bothered to apply for license. Or am unwilling to pay. If the government says I can’t practice is that infringing on my rights?

I can not buy food without wearing pants. Is that infringing on my rights?

“Who said you have a right to practice medicine”

You. We are discussing. Rights you claim forcing you to accinations infringes on your rights. I asked what right.. you Said right to buy food. I pointed out how this right is not being infringed you can still buy all the food yiu want just vaccinate first. (I also pointed out 2 other reasons why this claim was nonsense).
You then compared it to practicing medicine.

I mentioned I don’t really understand the connection. Since we are discussing rights I assumed you were presenting it as a right. Otherwise I don’t get the connection.

phil

“and we don’t know the long term effects of these “vaccines”.”

1) How long of a time frame would satisfy you to consider it safe?
2) I can’t think of anything that has a “long term” side effect. If I told you I have a headache from a medication I took six months ago, I think you’d dismiss me as a loon. Even if said medication was injected.
Can you think of anything that taking a small few ml dose or two can lead to effects much later that don’t manifest themselves for a “long time” ?
(note, I’m not taking about lots of cumulative doses over time. I’m talking about take something now, no problem then months/years later it causes a problem

I’m also not talking about rare side effects that aren’t discovered until enough people take it )

“Doesn’t say the worst that can happen is being shunned from society and have all his rights taken away from him.”

I asked you this before. what rights? “rights” isnt a magic word that lets you do what you want. For example, there is no right to drive. I live in a small town, there is no food available in walking distance. I did a study and it turns out most drivers who got killed in car accidents had drivers licenses. SO, simple! I refuse to get a drivers license You expect me to carry a death causing card? No way!.

Yet the state says I am not allowed to drive! Would you believe that? I am basically stuck at home , I cant go to work I cant go get food. What about my rights?

That is how you sound.

The only “right” of yours that you can argue is being violated is the “right” to not be vaccinated.
If you make this claim, you will have to cite chapter and verse where this right can be found. I don’t think it exists, though you could probably use a liberal interpretation of the constitution to support it, as a form of “right to privacy ” But there is no other right of yours being infringed

(unless you claim not being vaccinated is part of your religion , (though If you are Jewish of course the reverse is true) The right to practice your religion Does exist it is in the first amendment to the constitution. Though worth noting courts have ruled this (like most rights) is not absolute)

While not indicative of a chiyuv.

One of my rebbeim pointed out as a mashal of the love we have for Hashem (which is certainly a chiyuv) shir hashirim uses the relationship between man and wife .

Yserbius

“What’s wrong with robotic appendages?”

c’mon try to keep up, its part of the modern equivalent of the dor haflaga

“So you are welcoming in this new world for your own ego without even realizing how much it will affect you as well!”

How will it affect us as well?
I already get a yearly flu vaccine (as I recommend you do) So I’ll get yearly covid vaccines too (if indicated) , may be they’ll even be able to combine them? Is that the war on humanity you mention?

I’m sorry at your loss.

Don’t be mad at the kids. It is a common human reaction to look for someone to blame, it seems a bit misplaced. One, they did the right thing. two It is generally safe to assume they feels the loss of their parent more than one does of a friend

May you only know besuros tovos

CS

apologies, I was wrong. carry on the disagreement.

(though I still think it is a waste of time, since you aren’t making a reasonable/logical argument. It is impossible to argue against emotion using all the logic in the world. )

Phil

A few quick points

“who doesn’t know that mRNAs can be transported into the nucleus,”

no shame in not knowing. You cited a article from June 2021 that said it was the first article to ever suggest this. So You cant really fault me for not knowing it can you?

“I have bought many sources of natural mRNA entering the nucleus…”

Of the four sources you cited only one said that. And it seems rather limited. And certainly requires further validation

“Furthermore, DNA and protein are also located in the nucleus so how can we say that for sure the shots DNA or protein don’t enter the nucleus?”

RNA and DNA are not interchangeable. We are not discussing DNA

“And some “facts” are plainly understood. ”

often plainly understood facts are wrong. Ace inhibitors are good for patients w/ hypertension and CKD, ARBs are good as well. LEts give both will be super good! Nope further study showed this wasn’t true. Keep ALL plainly understood facts at the door. (or at least acknowledge that it is your theory and not in fact, a ” fact”)

Phil

“you showed ignorance in telling me that natural mRNAs do not enter the nucleus which is wrong, they certainly do enter the nucleus”

source please.
You told me to google it I can’t find anything. Could you please help?

“You said that these shots do not effect the nucleus of the cell which is wrong, the entire premise of this “vaccine” stands on the fact that it is supposed to “teach” the cell how to respond to the virus.”

This line doesn’t make any sense. As has been explained to you over and over, Translation (forming proteins using mRNA as a blueprint) takes place in the cytoplasm not the Nucleus (you are confusing translation with transcription which is when mRNA is produced using DNA as a template this takes place in the nucleus) .
So the way the vaccine works is it injects mRNA encoding for spike proteins into the body. This is not much different than viral mRNA entering the body which does the same. the mRNa is taken up by the cells and spike proteins are produced in the cytoplasm (not nucleus). Once the spike proteins are produced, the immune system recognizes them as foreign, and produces antibodies against them.
Now you have antibodies against the viral spike proteins

” I clearly said it can change the way our bodies naturally respond to viruses that is coded in the DNA.”

Yes you said that many times. But it is meaningless. It isn’t just that it isnt true. It is pure gibberish similar to the sentence “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously” It doesn’t mean anything. There is no natural response to virus coded in DNA, and if there was nothing is being changed.

“I concede that you are right, they may both travel to the brain, I”

No concession is necessary. We aren’t arguing. I’m not trying to win (meaning I don’t think I will or can convince you of anything) . You are making statements as if they are fact. You are repeating statements from Anti-smites to support your pre concieved notion.)

I grant I don’t understand the need to vaccinate those who have had Covid. You will note , I never argued for this in any of my posts. In fact, I don’t think I even argued to support covid vaccines at all (although I certainly support them) Just don’t make stuff up. That is what is infuriating People just lying (on both sides) in support of their position. I don’t get why people can’t resort to support their position without blatant lying. Chazal say people don’t lie if they will be found it. We have stopped beyond that. I have heard a doctor argue that a NEJM article showed an increase in misscariges. The article did not show that at all. Yet he still repeats it with no consequence. That is what I am responding to. Blatant misrepresentation.

OF course if in fact you have a source for your claim (that mRNA from the vaccine enters the nucleus and can somehow exert an effect on DNA) by all means please share it. If you don’t please stop saying it.

“They said that these gene-based injections cana travel anywhere in the body including to the brain.”

Thanks, though this is nt what we are looking for. sure there are side effects reported from the vaccine. That was not the question. My question was regarding your surprising contention that vaccine mRNA travels to different parts of the body than viral mRNA.

There are a number of case reports on CVT due to the covid 19 virus see Tu TM, Goh C, Tan YK, et al. Cerebral Venous Thrombosis in Patients with COVID-19 Infection: a Case Series and Systematic Review. J Stroke Cerebrovasc Dis. 2020;29(12):105379.

So while there are documented reports of same after vaccine (you dont need to take the word of an anti-Semite , try to find real sources eg See I, Su JR, Lale A, et al. US Case Reports of Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis With Thrombocytopenia After Ad26.COV2.S Vaccination, March 2 to April 21, 2021. JAMA. 2021;325(24):2448–2456.) This is NOT an example of vaccien mRNA traveling differently than viral mRNA

(note your premise is flawed I’m not sure that mRNA needs to travel to the spot where the thrombus forms, but that is beside the point)

phil

“NO CONTROLLED STUDIES DONE AT ALL ON CELL BASED SHOTS”

putting words in caps doesn’t make them true.

see for example :
Krissy K. Moehling, et al
A randomized controlled trial of antibody response to 2018–19 cell-based vs. egg-based quadrivalent inactivated influenza vaccine in children,
Vaccine, Volume 38, Issue 33, 2020, Pages 5171-5177,

or
Eun BW, et al
A Randomized, Double-blind, Active-controlled Phase III Trial of a Cell Culture-derived Quadrivalent Inactivated Influenza Vaccine in Healthy South Korean Children and Adolescents 6 Months to 18 Years of Age. Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2019 Sep;38(9):e209-e215.

Also you quoted CNBC ““The CNBC reported on July 30th that 74% of people infected in Massachusetts Covid outbreak were fully vaccinated.””

You accidently forgot to quote the more relevant part of the article:
“Roughly 97% of new hospitalizations and 99.5% of deaths in the U.S. are among unvaccinated individuals,”

Just to clarify 97% is not the same as all. Yes there are (relatively) few hospitalizations among the vaccinated. Nobody ever denies that. Nobody ever suggested the vaccine (or any vaccine) is 100% effective . In fact the opposite is true. Your comment helpfully points out the need for more to vaccinate. IT isnt just well You are vaccinated so, why do I have to be. Because, again the vaccine is not 100% effective. so the more vaccinated the better.

Avram

No benevolent condescension was intended. Thank you for taking the time to explain it

Syag, true but I think rightwriter really believes it

rightwriter, Ive enjoyed your comments many made me chuckle. This one in particular threw me off

“At first the mask mandate was a conspiracy, then the lockdown was a conspiracy, then the covid passports was a conspiracy, then the vaccine mandate was a conspiracy…STILL a conspiracy? I feel like we are living in a science fiction novel. I guess we will see what happens after the summer as I predicted would get much worse since they cannot control the masses in the heat of summer. Once they start “enforcing” these mandates the store owners wont even have a say it will be city workers at the doors waiting to see your papers.”

As I skimmed through the thread I assumed it was an opponent pointing out the fallacy in your argument.
For over a year now, you have been decrying all measures as a “threat” Masks will lead to limiting free speech! lockdowns will lead to people never being allowed to work as they please! You (and those similar minded) have been proven wrong again and again and again, all closed businesses have been allowed to reopen, no Covid detention camps, You are free to continue spouting whatever nonsense you please.

I’m curious what is the matter now. WHY does the government want you to get a vaccine? Do you believe there is a tracker? Is it to get people sick? Why would they do that? kill people? again why?
Just control/power for its own sake? With no deeper goal? to what end? What is their ultimate purpose. I don’t get it, help me wake up

“Should the hechsher be withdrawn if these issues come to light? Or do we consider the hechsher limited to the kashrus of the food?”

I dont think those are the two exclusive sides.

There is no question (in my mind) that a hashgacha is not limited to the status of food. nobody would support a hashgacha supervising a place of ill repute , as long as the food was kosher. A hashgacha stamp of approval on an establishment certainly certifies that the “establishment” is kosher. This includes decor , ambiance all of which go into making an “establishment”

That said. things unrelated to the “establishment” are not the kashrus’s purview. So if the owner cheats on his taxes, while certainly bad, the fact that the store has an OU (or whatever) doesnt mean, they support that. (unless of course the Store is called “Tax cheats and eats” coem get tips how to cheat taxes while havign a delcious lunch. In that case a hashgacha saying we only cerrtify the ood would be wrong)

Yes, of course there will be examples that are hard to neatly fit into wehter it is in or out of kashrus’s bounds using this metric, but I think it is a reasonabe lrule of thumb.

I don’t think Ben and Jerrys are defining themselves as an anti Israel company. They are taking “liberal stance” one that I disagree with, but nobody would see a chaf K/OU on their ice cream and think hey I guess the OU views the land as “occupied”

furthermore, I am a bit worried about the perception of pulling the hashgacha. Kashrus is largely supported by Non-Jew as documented in several recent books (Sue Fishoff’s Kosher nation, Kosher USA and Kosher private regulation in the Age of industrial food all come to mind).
There is a push among the anti Semites to avoid kosher as it is a “kosher tax” many of them claim as well, that this tax funds “Israeli occupation” If a kashrus orginazation pulls kashrus certification because the company wont support “Israeli occupation” it certainly lends credence to them.

To be clear: Pulling the certification would not be for that reason, and its not like these groups have much support – yet. It could be a problem later and it rubs me thewrong way.

That said continuing hashgacha is a bit funny vis a vis the company, here we are boycotting, and publicizing the boycott then “The Rabbi” comes in and says ok lets talk business we are here to certify you as kosher.

I vote keep hashgacha, but I’m not convinced. Just offering food for thought

“while ignoring actual genocide of Chinese Muslims and other atrocities?”

Ben and Jerry’s doesn’t sell in china

Phil

“As far as bringing into the discussion what came first when to prove my point, so what?”

It doesn’t prove your point, at all it is completely irrelevant.

As a reminder to our discussion.

This was your initial comment
“DNA produces RNA so the vaccine is affecting and modifying the DNA’s natural response.”

Whether or not DNA evolved from RNA or was created before or after RNA has exactly nothing to do with your unsupported assertion that mRNA affects DNA (the subject of this thread)

“I do very much believe in gene therapy as a resort of fighting fatal diseases certainly I am pro gene therapy when the gene therapy stays localized in the area”

you don’t understand gene therapy. How would it even stay local?

“My opinions are based on facts even if you don’t agree with them, unlike your supposed “fact” that natural RNAs don’t enter the nucleus which is totally false.”

would love a source please. I tried googling but I have been unsuccessful, could you please help?

“Kol shekein I certainly don’t believe in “potential prevention” of coronavirus ”

That’s a fair distinction.
Though to clarify, Are you opposed to all vaccines?

“I believe that every individual should be able to make their own decision regarding getting the coronavirus shot or not.”

that’s an entirely different discussion, and not one that I replied to

AAQ

“If you do not define market solution l’hathila, then public sector will take over the whole industry, like it happened with education.”

That is what I think should happen.
Because as I mentioned most health care expenditures (and almost all of the procey ones) are not governed by the free market as I mentioned a few times.

As to why they aren’t implemented I dont know. Trump passed regulations requiring prices be available, are people now choosing different hospials? Are prices coming down? It may be too soon to tell. I just dont believe this will have a major impact . Though I do think its a good idea