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DY, it may surprise you but there have been no studies To determine whether parachutes are effective in preventing major trauma related to gravitational challenge There was a proposal to that effect in BMJ in 12/2003. Would you be willing to be enrolled in a randomized, controlled double blinded study to determine if parachutes help?
It boils down to this:
If you think the mohel has a right to do as he pleases to my child without asking my permission whether I would this possibly dangerous practice that a small minority of people view as a chiyuv, then that is that is the strogest reason to support the city forcing mohelim to ask permission, to protect them from these dangerous mohelim.
If you think the mohel should ask permission, then you agree with the city
I heard a great line beshem Rav Avraham Yeshohua he allegedly said in contrast to the maiseh with the Netziv: after some mechabrei Seforim reach Olam Haemes, The Ribono shel olam will look at their seforim and say “But where are all the shoes you could have made?”
Tumbalalaika
Mutar!
gezeila?
what was stolen?
Drovi, if that was a response to my question you’ve strengthened the city’s case. You are advocating that mohelim do something to a child even if they suspect that the parents would not want him to do it.
Surely you could understand why some would try to prevent that from ever happening?
Hi PBA, sorry to bother you but you havent answered my question Ill repose it here so you dont have to scroll up
Thanks
What if the mohel holds it is required but he knows that the parents would not hold that eg they are not chasidish (and yes many many non-chasidim hire chasidish mohels)Do you think he should ask or just go ahead and do it?
People arent idiots if they dont know the ins and outs of technical halacha that comes up a few times in a person’s life.
(How many people know that theres a machlokes regarding performing priah as part of the chituch? obviously this is but one example)
And besides I guess I do care about all people even idiots
What if the mohel holds it is required but he knows that the parents would not hold that eg they are not chasidish (and yes many many non-chasidim hire chasidish mohels)Do you think he should ask or just go ahead and do it?
Ok PBA, lets remove choices and make a simple yes/no question:
Do you think a mohel should ask parents if theyd like MBP done?
PBA, point one is semantics If you are opposed to THIS law only because of where it will lead then you are not opposed to THIS law.
Point 3 (as you explain it now) is part of point 2 since you agree (i assume) If it WAS dangerous then you would support regulating a religous ritual.
As to point #2, the studies are not relevant to me. Most Doctors view MBP as putting infants at risk. Anecdotaly the evidence against MBP is overwhelming speak to pediatricians even frum ones (I have) speak to residents both here and in Israel (I have) the number of frum boys who come in with infections (not just HSV) far outweighs the number of frum girls and the number of boys in general. Admittedly this is anectdotal and no reason to ban or limit Mbp.
The only thing I support is getting parents permission and informing them of possible risk.
Do you mind answering a question? Do you think a hired mohel should specifically ask parents if theyd like MBP done? (They dont ask about technical aspects of the bris, even halachic ones. For example the mohel wouldnt ask if he should do priah as part of the chituch or separately with his nail) Or should the mohel be allowed to decide on his own wether to do it or not?
Pba, sorry I wrote that before your comment went up.
Though in points #1 and 3 above you indicate that you are not opposed to THIS enactment but are afraid if where it will lead.
(Point #2 is silly we rely doctors for medical advice most if them view it as dangerous. Calling it “junk science” or writing an article in dialogue doesn’t make that go away)
Afsher, so like Pba you are not really opposed to the city, you are just (perhaps legitimately so) afraid if where it will lead.
As to your question yes if there was an issue if people having brie milah done on their children without their knowledge or permission, and/or people had no idea that their is some risk involved I absolutely would support a law requiring a mohel to get the parental permission (written if neccesary) prior to doing a bris. Who on earth wouldn’t?
Afsher, I’m not sure what you mean, the city is not opposed to circumcision. Neither is the medical community, it is a personal preferance. And yes the mohel should avsolutky get parents permission before going around circuncisising children. Everybody knows there is an element of risk involved in taking a knife to a child it is a risk we accept because it us ratzon hashem. Not everyone realizes mbp involves risk and not everyone views it as ratzon hashem, and not everyone knows if the mohel will do it.
Pba, so beetzem you agree with the city you are just afraid of where it will lead
Pba it sounds like u agree with the city.
The city isn’t banning, just making people aware of the risk. We all know there is a risk involved in driving. We try to limit that risk for kids by requiring car seats/ seatbelts. I know mire than one person who before the recent hullabaloo didn’t know about mbp, and hired a chasidish mohel who did mbp. The city us saying you want to do mbp, fipne just be aware iof the risk and get parents permission.
PBA, granted, and it is striking that he (and many others) are too dumb to realize that.
Though to be fair I doubt in the DOH reports they make any mention of any “primitive” quality associated with MBP. They correctly focus on the one issue that matters namely the health issue.
Heres what I would’ve told him. Describing it in vile language is unnecessarily offensive (I know that that is part of his appeal, and that sadly more often than not many of our bretheren fall for him when he is on “our” side.)
Any “ick” factor is complelty irrelevant when discussing banning or limiting people from practicing their religion. Many religous rituals from all religions can be made to sound “weird” that should have no bearing with regard to any discussion n the matter. I’m sure nay thinking person would agree with the above. (Though I was never sure if savage could be characterized as a thinking person)
That being said there is only one issue that should matter to the authorities (and us) in regard to banning/limiting any religous procedure, and that is health and safety of those involved. If Rov of the medical profession views it as dangerous it should be banned. period. Same as we would tell somebody not to fast on Y”K if Rov (or even one) Doctor even a goy said it was dangerous.
Any attempt to portray any ritual as “Primitive” “icky” or “weird” is completly out of place and detracts from the real issue
acers,
Great! sounds like we are making progress!
So if you claimed the reason why you didnt commemorate “Olympic Martyrs Remembrance Day ” Is because these days cant be created once Tishaa baav was established you would be saying nonsense (as you yourself agreed), and would have some other reason guiding your opposition.
In other words you explained why charedim have the right to disregard Yom hashoa, not why they actually do
I outlined 2 such reasons in my first post on this subject.
acers, Great so you agree that the State of Israel can create such a day for Israel.
Midwesterner your “points” are without merit:
“TZom Gedaliah was established by the same Chazal who established Tisha B’av in response to Churban Bais Hamikdash.”
That may very well be true, but it disproves the notion that we have no additional days of mourning after Tisha Baav was instituted
” Sefira is not an official azkara, only a miut in simcha. Anyone who has ever been in availus and learned the halachos should know the difference. And anyways those date back to tanaim, who were authorizeed to make such takanos.”
Sefira is a period of aveilus(During Nissan btw, at least for many) you can try to make artificial distinctions from today until tomorrow, and no it is not from chazal. Taanis Esther isnt from Chazal either, though granted it isnt really aveilus
” The crusades are b’davka mentioned in kinos on Tisha B’av (Mi Yitein Roshi Mayim, Sha’ali Serufa Baesh, and others.)”
20 Sivan was originaly for the crusades and in particular for the community of Blois that was burned
” And Tach V’tat was only imposed on the medina that suffered.”
So That would mean you have no problem with Survivors and their descendants commemorating Yom Hashoah
The idea that “We have never added memorial days for tragedies that affected only a portion of Klal Yisrael” Is nonsense. 20 sivan being but one example (though it is not widely commemorated today, some siddurim still have selichos (!) for 20 Sivan printed in them.
The real reason the charedi world doesnt commemorate yom hashoah is because it was instituted from the get go as a bridge to yom haatzmaut it is designed to serve as a contrast between the galut vs geulah. This obviously did not and does not sit well with the Charedi velt.
The second reason is that the day is not just a day to serve as a memorial to the victims. It also serves to glorify the armed resistors. The full name of the day is “Yom HaZikaron laShoah ve-laG’vurah” The chardei world by and large did not participate in armed resistance and thus felt somwhat excluded and even slighted by the notion.
It is equalt to one. It has been proven in many ways it is not debated.
Here is a simple easy to follow mathematical proof:
1/9 = 0.111…
( 9 x 1/9) = (9 x 0.111…)
1 = 0.999…
None of the above statments are up for debate.
The problem people have with grasping the above is that infinity is hard for the mind to grasp. Many suppose the difference between 0.999… and 1.0 is a difference of
0.000…(infinite 0’s)…1. In other words it is viewed as a really long chain of zeros with a tiny 1 way out there. However in reality this is not the case. there is no end to the 0’s, as soon as you imagine that 1 at the “end” of your long string of 0’s, get rid of it and replace it with yet another 0. Do this forever until you are convinced that in fact there is no 1 out there and the difference between 0.999… and 1 is exactly 0. in aother words they are equal.
yekke2, because that is the minhag.
mewho, no.
Because that is the Minhag.
There are many machlokes Rishonim involved: why Maror doesnt require haadama (either because it is patared by earlier haadama or because it is after hammotzi), theres a machlokes whether to make borei nafoshes immediately after eating a kezayis karpas since there is a long hefsek.
By avoiding a kezayis karpas you avoid this machlokes since you certainly wouldn’t make a bracha achrona. This is how mechaber paskens.
(though it is impossible to satisfy EVERY shitah since for example the Rambam paskens that karpas requires a kezayis like every achila, Bach says to be machmir like Ramabam)
1. No, though usually (By the sedarim Ive been too) the leader will distribute some of his matzah to everybody and you can supplement with other matzah to get to your desired amount.
2. you are right,though dont fret about not understanding it doesnt make sense
3. The issue is to avoid any question of requiring a bracha achrona immediately thereafter
Put another way, The mitzvah is “achilas matzah” eating matzah it has to be a normal derech achila for example if you eat it as achilas gasah that is not normal and you are not yotzeh. If you are stuffing your face with 2/3 of a matzah in 2 minutes that is obviously not derech achilah and not what the mitzvah is.
DY, that is what I’m saying. Why on earth would you measure the time frame based on bread?
I’m curious if that makes sense to you
DY I’m not saying either of those. I’m saying 2 other things:
I guess what I’m saying is for a regular person if you are struggling with the mitzva if al achilas matzah, then by definition you are doing it wrong.
And don’t worry about measuring eat matzah Luke a normal person in a normal tune period and again by definition you are yotzeh. An olive is the smallest amount
DY I’m not saying either of those. I’m saying 2 other things:
I guess what I’m saying is for a regular person if you are struggling with the mitzva if al achilas matzah, then by definition you are doing it wrong.
And don’t worry about measuring eat matzah Luke a normal person in a normal tune period and again by definition you are yotzeh. An olive is the smallest amount
” Have you ever seen an olive? They’re really not big at all. They are quite small”
That is part of my point. An olive is tiny! So small in fact that any less isn’t even called eating (both in terms of mitzvos and issurim). If a person is having difficulty it us obvious that he is doing the mitzva wrong
Im not saying there is neccesaraly a mitzva to eat more. I’m saying that we don’t generally measure mitzvos to be yotze the bare minimum and call it a day. We don’t just put Tefilin on and remove them I can’t think of one myitzva let alone a deoraisa let alone one that cones once a year that we put such an emphasis and struggle to try to fullfill and be satisfied with the bare minimum
A kezayis is the bare minimum that is called achila it is not the goal that those on a high level strive to attain. Same for eating within a kedei achilas pras. If we are struggling to finish a “kezayis” in 2 minutes and calling that the absolute bare minimum to be considered having eaten, then we are doing something wrong.
(these may in fact be 2 different points)
Double wrapping helps lekatchilah. The wrapping keeps out any reicha or zeiah. The outside wrapper becomes chametz, the bliaos from outside wrapper can’t travel to inner wrapper without a liquid medium. That is the purpose of double wrapper.
Sam2, kezayis is the bare minimum to be considered achila it is not the goal to strive for.
In other words there is a mitzva to eat matzah. period. We want to do ratzon Hashem so we eat matzah. How much is considered eating? So on that chazal tell us the bare minimum to be considered having eaten is a kezayis.
(I realize Imgetting repetetive thpugh its hard to convey in text)
Bar shatya, thanks for strengthening my point do you buy tefilin with which you are yotze (you can get for about $400) or do you spend extra to be mehader the mitzva? Do you buy a “kosher” set of daled minim or do you strive for the nicest one within your budget?
Your nonsense about more parshiyos in tfilin or minim with your esrog is of course am haaratzos, are you suggesting that eating more than an olive’s volume of matza is bal tosif?
Zahavasdad, I think you are doing the mitzva wrong.
The absolute bare minimum to be called achila is a kezayis eaten over the course of a kedei achilas pras. Ie the volume of an olive eaten over the normal time it takes to eat half a loaf of bread. By definition if this is hard to handle, their is something wrong with the “achila” and you are doing the mitzva wrong
Keep in mind a kezayis is the minimum shiur required. (the size of an olive not more)Ie the absolute minimum amount to be considred eating is a kezayis.
Do you build a sukkah 7 x7 tefachim and 10 tefachim tall? Do you measure out enough oil so menorah will only last a half hr? why settle for the absolute minimum amount of matzah needed to be yotzeh?
you answered your own question. You say “I always loved the look,” well they do too
First question, from the way the media is reporting the story yes it is allowed and in fact that is precisly what took place as she entred the facility
Regarding your second question: Then (i assume) they would do cpr and if not the nurse wouldve been wron for not helping somebody who never agreed to forgo cpr. My understanding is that when entering the facility the resident /family agreed that the staff would not perform cpr (havent we been through this point?). (Again, though I agree she shouldve found somebody who would do it.)
daniella, is that the case even if upon entering the dry cleaners you sign a waiver indicating that you understand that the dry cleaners will not perform cpr in the event of an arrest, but would merely call 911?
2scents, Im not sure what you mean. There is usually no discernible difference between a patient in whom “death is obvious” and a patient who suffered a recent arrest.
Do you mean after time has passed?
At any rate of the top of my head a patient in who cardiac arrest occured as a result of refractory hypotension or in a patient in whom cpr has been ineffective. Or if the home’s policy is not to perform CPR and residents are aware of this and agree to it.
got it daniella so to sum up the main problem you have with the nurse is not handing the phone to somebody else, I guess that makes sense.
The patient may not have had a formal DNR that is irrelevant if my point #2 above is correct. Her job as I understand it is to call 911 and NOT to do cpr. Though It is hard to justify her refusal to hand off the phone.
2scents, you say “if you would attend geriatric emergency you will unfortunately find a lot of children that would be OK that their elderly parents die” i have attended several, I have never seen that (though i have no doubt it ocurs frequently) What I have seen several times is people pounding on a clearly hopeless pateints chest, bruising and breaking ribs in the process, when all are aware and all stattics show that the attempt was futile just to make the family feel good. There is no question in my mind that this is nivul hames. This is beside the point though.
Daniella, The conversation is going in circles allow me to break it down and please let me know where I have it wrong:
1) There are some situations where cpr is innapropriate. In those situations even someone trained in Cpr would be justified in withholding cpr (and perhaps even be wrong for perforimng cpr, though note these last 2 staments say two diferent things you can accept one and not the other.)
2) The facility she was in had a policy in place when she entered, that she was made aware of, that they would not perform cpr in the case of an arrest, but would call 911.
3) The patient/family agreed to be entered in the home, thus agreeing to the above policy.
4) She had a Cardiac arrest at the facility
5) The nurse at the facility followed the facility’s policy, and thus the patient’s wishes (see #3 above)and called 911 but refused to perform cpr.
Which point do I have wrong?
I think I may be missing something. My understanding is she/ the family were told of this policy at the nursing home when they joined. By joining she in effect agreed to a DNR
Are those who think somebody was wrong (Daniella seems to feel “everyone” was wrong) opposed to the idea of DNR? This is an astounding chiddush! I have never ancountred anyody in real life who is opposed to the idea of DNR in every case. She asked for it (By joining this home) and got it. What is the controversy?
It is a great way to show how frum you are
mishpachasu, you can add that as another advantage to the internet, that now if you want to be considred smart no longer can you just go through kitzur like the layman and add something on top. The bar is raised that much higher for all since the layman has acess to much more information.
thegra, they undoubtedly would have published more, driven by the haarabtzos torah and zechusim at their fingertips
truthsharer, you should never “Despise” divrei Torah, no matter when.
Its a more Democratic way for the govt to be forced to follow the will of the people. The Prime minister cant just do what he or even his party wants for the duration of his term he need support of opposing parties and thus needs to grant some of their desires as well.
The US on the other hand, essentially elects a dictator for 4 years (consider the fact that no President was ever removed from office during his term no matter how low their approval ratings may have been). The President can pretty much do as he pleases (to a certain extent) throughout his 4 years no matter how unpopular they may be. Think About Obama’s possible kill list or Bush maintaining the IRaq war when it was wildly unpopular. In most democratic countries includig Israel Bush’s govt would’ve collapsed once the war was unpopular.
When R’ Yochanon told a woman to stop going to shul so that she can die did he kill her r”l?
When R’ chanina ben Taradyon allowed the executioner to remove the wet pieces of wool that were keeping him alive longer was he advocating murder R”L?
When the Gemara says and Shulchan aruch codifies that when a goses is dying and a wood cutter is keeping him alive we can stop the wood cutter so as to allow the goses to die is he advocating murder r”l?
Withholding CPR is even a step removed from that(since there is no kum veaseh and no hinderence is being removed it is only POSSIBLE aid that is being withheld), calling it murder is am haaratzos. Dpending on the circumsatnces withholding CPR may be the correct thing to do
Gamnanit, depends on the state of health in my relative, and the cause of cardiac arrest. In most scenarios in 80 year olds no I absolutely would not want CPR done.