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wikipedia has a category “gangs in europe”
You can read about gangs in each country we’ve spoken of.
No gangs in Europe? You have got to be kidding their inner cities look the same as ours. (google gangs in europe)
I’d like to think our legal system is more similar to England and France than Russia. If we get our act together their is no reason we cant achieve homicide rates that are closer to theirs
Ok lets start by taking back the contry from the corrupt lobbyists such as the NRA.
Let me tell you a story that will really make you mad, many americans where getting shot, much more than any civilized country. Finnaly the american public had enough and most of them said it is time we make sure we stop selling guns to bad guys. The NRA once supported this idea, but have since become more power hungry and have decided to stop it. They bought off politicians and in spite of the country’s best interests, and in spite of a majority of the senate supporting the bill it failed.
You say the law would place “restrictions on normal law abiding citizens who would actually go through the background check.” This is laughable if the person is normal and law-abiding then they pass the background check. If they dont pass it is either because they aren’t normal or law abiding.
I’m sorry I see how that was confusing. There are two distinct classes of homicides in my mind and i’m sure you’d agree since it was you who first identified 1 of those subsets.
There is one group of gang related these are mostly (all?) with illegal guns. You indicated that this accounts for less than half to half of all homicides. These would probably not be limited by background checks. These are a result of deep cultural norms and societies with values completly different than our own. These (the pereptrators and victims)are generally people who are part of that culture/society with little to no hope of breaking free solving this problem will take a lot more than gun control laws. I dont quite get why they should be excluded from US stats but not foreign stats. again though even if we did you still have to fudge the numbers to make them close.
There is another larger group which includes most other homicides. These would be drasticly reduced by preventing the wrong people from getting their hands on guns. If we enforce are current laws we wouldbe sitting ducks for mentally unstable people who want to gun down innocents. They cant just walk into a gun shop and buy a gun (B”H) but they can take advantage of a gun show sized loophole and buy as many guns as they can carry no questions asked.
Neither of these groups are a result of culture as in TV/movies (which is what I assumed you meant when you first brought up culture way back when)
Nobody is taking away weapons. Nobody. Nobody.
First of all you provided the numbers and no I did not say 50% of murders are illegal weapons. But it doesnt matter.
You can buy all the weapons you want as long as you pass a background check. Using your analogy, it would probably be a great step towards disarming the middle east (Not that I believe that is a good or plausible idea, im just following your anaolgy through)if the world began a policy that for now on if a middle eastern country wants to buy a weapon, they can’t have had a history of mental illness etc. Who would oppose such a policy?
dafyomi2711
They don’t mean literary kol hatorah kula,
did he write a sefer Torah?
Was he mekayem michiyas amalek? zechiras amalek?
Was he mikayem sipur yetziyas Mitzrayim?
At any rate your statement “he studied the same torah we have nowadays! the same gemara the same chumash” Cannot be correct, as you conceded in your second comment “chumash must have been a little different”
I wasnt being sarcastic suicide has a lot offactors involved. Though several studies have shown that making barriers to suicide prevents them from occuring (this is usuallyin the context of barriers on bridges/ buidlings).
I dont mean dont care about, just that they are not my number one concern. Those are deeper problems often involving cultures with no way out. As you have mentined in the past the guns involved in these incidents are generally illegal and all the background checks in the world wouldnt help.
However your research proves my case a resounding 70-50% of homicides in the US are NOT gang related! In other words with the right regulation these are the ones we can prevent (again, granted not all of them). That is a lot of homicide even the lower edge of that range is still a higher rate of homicide than any of the countries you have brought up in the course of this conversation (France, England, Norway, and Spain) I would love to emulate their homicide rates.
Japan btw has a much much much more violent TV/movie culture. and a much lower homicide rate.
DY, according to you and many poskim it is not subject to changeAnd that us fine I rely in them too. Even R’ shechter relies on them and yang moche when the hashgacha he copaskens for allows it.
(there are other things as well)
Benign, thanks I haven’t heard from him in awhile and missed a point
I’m sorry I’m supposed to accept your data-less assertations while you deny factual data.?Both France and England have lower homicide rates than we do (about 4 times lower).
(again in spite if same violent movies/tv).
You are right about suicide though, for example Japan has very strict gun regulation (and thus a very low homicide rate) but a very high suicide rate due to a bizzare cultural thing.
Pba, the rov tells you the status of the cow. Assuming rov cows (ie more than half) are kosher, each individual cow’s milk is kosher and doesn’t require any bitul
If less than rov cows are kosher then each individual cow is assumed treifa unless you check.
The gemara says rov cows are kosher, some poskim feel thus metzius has changed and currently rov cows are treifa.
In other words if 14% have this problem, each cow is assumed to be from 86% non stapled and all milk is fine. However if 51% are stapled we MAY have a problem
DY
I think the issue is the metzius MAY have changed. The gemara assumes rov cows are kosher. I don’t know remember the technical details but R’ shechter’s holds this to no longer be true and that rov cows are treifa. Therfore every cow would be assumed to be a treifa unless checked, thus making all milk treif unless came from a cow that was checked and found to be kasher.
The homicide rate in both England and France are lower. I know that you don’t believe it but that doesn’t make it less true.
I’m not saying there is a direct link beteen gun control and murder, there is a general trend though.
Ths law would have been good for the country. Most citizens supported it and even most senators. It was the nra who turned it down.
Gang violence is lower on my concern list, since “innocents” aren’t as affected. I want to limit mass shootings, domestic disputes and suicides all of which background cgecks and waiting periods would help.
Would he have used bombs? Who knows probably not. Countries with limited gun ownership don’t have an epidimic of bombings.
1) Even if that would work (it wouldnt as ive pointed out several times europe and Canada have the same violent movies and TV).
Do you view the “right to bear arms” as more important than free speech?
2) I suppose i agree. I think this law would have saved lives.
4) Ca in of itself doesnt prove. it but comparing it to the states with looser restrictions and more homicdes does.
BTw read up on australia, they have a resounding success story with gun control
5) The law the NRA turned down explicitly banned such a database.
6) agreed!
I second the thanks to the mods
Many with intent to kill will kill without a a gun. But many more will not. and of those who do, more victims will survive a stabbinf and there will be less innocent bystanders.
For example if Adam Lanza did not have access to a gun. would he have gone through the school stabbing? Maybe maybe not. If he had though what would the outcome be? On the same day as Sandy Hook, in china a mass stabbing took place.
Here are the results:
Sandy Hook: dead 28, injured 2
chenpeng: dead 0, injured 24
Daniela,
i’m not sure what you mean by “worse.” If you had milk that you KNEW was froma treifa cow (say you shechted it right after milking it and found it to be a treifa) then it would be treated a any treif milk and requires 60 to be mevatel.
If you dont know the status of the cow (which presumably is usually the case as when you walk into your local grocery and pick up some milk there is no way you can know what the status of the cow is) The gemara says that rov cows are not treifa. Therfore every living cow can be assumed to be a member of that rov and all milk is Kosher.
This is the halacha as codified and according to most poskim is equally applicable today.
DY
I dont think so, and even he holds there are tzdadim lehakel. Keep in mind he is one of the OU’s poskim and would obviously leave if he felt he was certifying treif milk.
R’ Reisman on the other hand is more chamur in this sense as he really feels there is little room for heter in regard to chalav stam due to this concern. i have heard him on more than one occasion viewing it as triefus gamur due to the above mentioned concern.He has said to avoid keilim as well for this reason.
Although again R’ Belsky holds it is fine. I dont know the details of the metzeius.
daniela, Not quite when combining liquids we always need 60 times (if they are the same min (regardless of how you define “min” treif and kosher cow milk is certainly the same min) then it is “only” derabanan while deoraisa would be batul by simple majority)
With milk majority we rely on is different. How can we ever drink milk, maybe the cow is a treifa? The gemara addresses this and says Most cows (simple majority not 60 times) are not treifa. Therfore each cow that is milked can be assumed to not be a treifa.
(There are those such as R’ Hershel sShachter who hold this rov to no longer hold true in the US and therfore avoid milk altogether. Others such as R’ Reisman hold this is an issue among cows in general due to their eating habits/ various treatments they undergo, however cy cows are fed a different diet and thus are kosher. R’ Belsky holds this isnt an issue at all)
big deal
Great thought!
So in canada (which oviously has a similar culture to ours) strict gun control helps. Their homicde rate as youve correctly pointed out is lower than ours (1.6 vs 4.8).
The other 70% kill with any weapon to get their hand on, but it is more difficult to kill, reflected in their lower homicide rate.
(again keep in mind guns arent just a problem in the number of people they kill, they also cause worse injuries than say knives and to more people)
A longer reply to your 6 outlined points is awaiting moderation
daniela,
relying on majority isnt a leniency it is basic halacha.
(Of course if a majority of milking cows are in fact treifa that is another story)
1) So would you support a ban on selling guns to people involved with “involved somehow in a violent culture thing be it vidoes and games, religious fanatics, or disallusioned military nincompoops” (more theoretical than practical, supposing he mentioned it to the seller)?
2) agreed. Though I cant think of a private citizens way to help solve the madness
3) None of these mass shootings were commited by illegal immigrants. So while this may be an important point, it is entirely irelevant to the subject at hand.
4) California proves it DOES work but is not perfect. I’m not looking for a perfect solution (yet).
5) A background check on all gun purchases would not be a restriction on any leagl guns. It would prevent crazies in the future from purchasing a gun no questions asked.
6) Probably, the problem is some people are unwilling to listen to reason. The NRA had supported universal background checks. There was nothing controversial in this bill. Yet the NRA purchased senators blocking oppostion in spite of the fact that a majority of the senate voted in favor of the bill.
Big deal.
in the post that has yet to go up do you answer my question
“Are you ok with anybody getting a gun no questions asked?” I think it is an important question.
In other words do you agree with Lapierre in 99′ or 2013?
big deal
that and the fact that European countries and Canada have the same TV/movies we do yet multiple times lower homicide rates.
Even if they are underreported. Several times? The countries you brought up (APain and Norway) have 6-8 times lower homicide rates. Even if the are grossly underrepresented and are in actually twice as high. They are still3-4 times lower
Big deal,
So where is the line drawn?
Are you ok with anybody getting a gun no questions asked?
Again if course the govt isn’t perfect. Far from it. That is not a reason to not try what has worked in other countries. We have an epidemic. Something MUST be done. And no it has nothing to do with culture.
Pba. Where can the article be found?
Charlie hall,
Milk in the us does not need a hashgacha (unless you’re looking for cy obviously). The supplements are batul.
You’re right it probably won’t prevent gang violence. Though it proabably would prevent the next mass shooting, many cases of domestic violence, and many suicides. I don’t think if it won’t prevent all homicides its not worth trying. It’s time the us stops ranking along with third world countries in this regard.
homicide is homicide. There is only one way to define it. A hate crime that kills people is homicide abortion is not. Denying the statistics wont make them go away.
OK so lets pretend California’s gun laws are too strict and they’d be better off backing up a bit to a nice middle number. They are still better off thanalthe states I mentioned plus 6 others who have weaker gun control laws.
Big deal
Are you saying the homicides are falsely reported. Which way are the US over reporting for some reason? Are forign countries underreporting? Why dont the repressive countries underreport as well?
Fine lets pretend you are correct, lets examine the data that you clim will make you happy
California does not have the highest homicde rate in the country. It is 17th (Probably thanks to its strict gun laws). Louisiana is the state with the highest rate and it has among the waekest gun control laws (Ithas a brady score of 2/100). in fact of the 10 worst homicide states (LA, MD, MO, SC, NV, NM, MI, TN, MS & AZ) 8!! Had a Brady campaign score of 10 or lower making them among the least restrictive states in the country.
WIY
How would his Rav know?
Ah you must mean check with his boss. Ok efsher. Though he does not say that. He must assume we are dealing with grownups
Toi.
I was wondering how much the OP thought should be lost for a minhag.
For a mitzvas Asei deoraisa(!) the MOST a person has to lose is a chomesh (1/5).
If youre not equating (and you shoudnt since shabbos and sefira arent similar) why mention irrelevant examples
Poskim HAVE decided R’ Moshe allows shaving for parnassa in two tshuvas one in O”CH 4 other in the O”Ch in chelek tes (which I assume is 5)
Toi, that is correct.
My question was regarding shaving during sefira (as was the op’s)
Are you saying sefira is as chamur as chilul shabbos?
how much money do you think a person would have to sacrifice to avoid shaving during sefira? Half his income? 3/4? All of it?
big deal,
YES!!! I think you finnaly nailed it (partially)
“but it would make sense if they were far more available in the us and it is.” Proabbly correct. This is why we have to make getting guns harder. Increase background checks. (something the NRA supported a few years ago).
It is easier to kill with a gun (suicide too which we havent discussed yet, but is important to mention as well). getting rid of guns makes it harder (though not impossible, we have addresssed this) to kill.
Additionally keep in mind as ive mentioned to PBA guns are worse than other weopns becuase when they dont kill they injure MORE people and with MORE SEVERE injuries. compare the knife attack in china to the massacre in Sandy HOok which occured on the same day.
a few other quibbles:
“If you want an accurate study you need to go to an area where all crime is classified by the same group on the same standards.”
The data was compiled by a UN office.
“Come up with something decent without taking away my 2nd ammendment. “
background checks dont take away your second ammendment. The amendment calls for “well regulated”
(as an aside for almost the first 200 years of its existence has been understood as applying to militias and not individuals but this is a beside the point since it doesnt matter what the was meant/understood. the supreme court recently read it as applying to indivduals, so until we can replace the current justices with ORIGINALISTS 🙂 there is no point discussing this established fact.)
“Im saying i dont know if homicide is greater in the us.”
It is
“Do the research.”
I have
big deal,
So when numbers prove you wrong you deny them?
Late term abortion is illegal in Norway and more limited in spain than in the US. Thus it cant explain why the homicide rate is 6-8 times higher in the US than in those countries.
Do you ave any other thoughts as to why the homicide rate is so much higher in the Us? Are you saying it isnt?
While you are thinking about that consider this, guns arent used for abortions why is the firearm-related death so much highier in the US?
Big deal,
nice try the numbers are from UN office on drug and crime. I dont think dont think they consider abortion.
Besdies guns aren’t used for abortions so this point is entirely irrelevant.
here is where it gets better Late term abortion is illegal in Norway! In Spain it is legal for medical reasons only. In the US only 22 states have restrictions on late term abortion. 28 (more than half the country!)do not.
This was a nice try, but once again you will have to come up with a real reson why the gun violence rate (or homicde rate if you accept PBa’s point) is so much higher in the US. It is not (solely) due to TV/Movies. Nor is it as a result of abortion.
(Interestingly if you are into the yeshivish freakanomics, he argues that the legalization of abortion in the US actually DECREASED the violent crime rate.)
big deal, it is easy but still harder. The examples you cite prove my point the homicide rate in Spain is 0.8 per 100,000, Norway is even less as 0.6. THe US is 4.8 (this is the homicide rate which includes all weaapns).
These cultures have the same TV programs and movies that the US does. Yet their homicide rates are multiple times lower. you are correct that they are not 0, and that People that intend to kill will do just that.
Yet it is important to determine why our homicide rate is so much higher than the very countries you mention, and what can we do about it.
PBA
I cant provide links. source is UN office on drug and crime. I found it via wikipedia
As to your other point: granted
though I was pointing out that it is not just the death rate that is a problem a violent act is worse whent he perpetrator has a gun as compared to a knife the children at Sandy Hook would hhave been better off had Lanza come in swinging a knife, and the individual children attacked would have been better off stabbed than shot. These are all consideration that gun control legislation would attempt to correct.
PBA, Fine
big deal, the problem with that argument is that other countries have the same violent movies and video games as we do. Yet the violent death rate in the US is far ahead of any other in the western world.
(As an aside PBA, I disagree with that since the subject at hand is “gun control” thus firearm related death is waht we are discussing. We would be better off if criminals were forced to resort to other waepons since a. guns are deadlier and b. guns can kill/injure more people in a faster amount of time. Consider: on the same day as Sandy Hook a mass stabbing took place in a school in China a similar number of people were affected (24) however none of them were killed
big deal, the problem with that argument is that other countries have the same violent movies and video games as we do. Yet the firearm related death rate in the US is far ahead of any other in the western world.
While the problem you identify may be part of the problem, it can hardly be called “the core of the problem.”
big deal, Yet you dont say “look at how many drunk drivers are still out there” so lets get rid of laws regarding drunk driving (i assume).
So why use the argument “How many illeagal guns are there” as a reason not to have strict gun laws?
sw33t, that is an even worse example! Drunk driving has VERY strict rules. For just getting in a car with an open beverage you can get arrested. The bartender who allowed an obvious drunk guy to drive home is ALWAYS blamed
SWe33t, I saw that too and was can’t believe anybody thinks its logical. If bombs where readilly sold as guns are you bet there would be an outcry. And consider why shouldn’t bombs be readily available after all they are “arms” and according to gun nuts should be protected under the 2bd ammendment which is bit limited to guns.
If the bombs used in the attack were purchased from “bombs r us”, do you really think there wouldn’t be calls to limit derranged people from easily purchasing a comb with out even a background check?
Dy, Id like to point out that Idid in fact answer the question
No Ariellah, too bad on us
Without question the phone that goes off.
The only thing worse than THAT is then when someone else’s phone goes off? What is his excuse to forget to silence he just got a really loud reminder to check his phone.
And as for the guy whose phone goes off twice?!? he should be publicly shamed and expelled (permanently?) from shul
Im not following your logic. Do you think they are too thrifty? Or that they dont clean their dishes well?
What is the connection between the two
Talmud, then I don’t get your question. Not all halacha was given at Sinai. period.
There goes the premise of your question
I’m not sure what you mean by “all of halacha was given at Sinai” Obviously this this isnt true.
The halachic process was certainly given but for example many situations hadnt arisen yet. To take a recent example, I dont think anybody would say the halacho of whether or not IVF is allowed was given at sinai (Though I wouldnt be surprised if some people did in fact think so, I have ceased being surprised at some nonsense emanating from certain circles). A framework was given and using that framework well-versed/learned poskim apply it to new situations, thus arriving at different legitimate conclusions.
This is but one example of a source of machlokes but it explains many
Really DY?
How many frum yidden live near Water St.?