ubiquitin

AZ:

“without getting into why that is so and how it came about and if this is a relatively new phenomena or not”

This is absurd of course the hows and whys matter! You cant just ignore every hole in your “theory” and say nothing matters.

you then state “then it is obvious that girls at all ages will have difficulty getting dates” This is more nonsense since most guys date more than one girl and some a lot more. This has been expalined ad nauseuem. Thus age gap or no age gap There should be more than enough dates for all girls.

You ask

“girls age 19/20/21 should be easily able to date guys age 22/23/24. You would surely agree that the guys age 22/23/24 are not dating girls who are 30 years old. So if I may ask, how is it, that the number of guys who start dating at 22 and are still single post 24 is far fewer than the girls who started dating at 19 and are still single at post 21. I mean the girls 19/20/21 could date guys not just 22-24 but they could in theory date guys even 25/26/27 ????”

im so glad you asked! It is becuas the way our sytem is set up the guy picks who to go out with, while the girl sits there waiting/davening that she will be picked. Thus some girls are receieving “more than their share” of dates while others suffer from “relativley infrequent dating” as The article DY posted earlier put it.

As to your next question the older guys do have competition! Though since girls sit waiting hoping to get a call, if they are chosen by 30 year old they may agree to go otu since nobody else called. Obviously if at the smae time a girl got a yes froma 24 year old, other things being equal she will generally pick the younger one.

As to your next question, because for whatever reason, she had access to less dates, when younger. (Obviously this isnt always true but it generally holds true).

Yes there is a question you havent answered, you havent addressed why this is new, what changed? Was it the age discrepancy? or the yearly increase in population? Or something else

DY,

giving all girls dates might not help them ALL get married, and we will cross that bridge when we get there. (My guess is enough guys marry girls their age or older to alleviate the “gap”)

So you agree chasidim have a “age gap” albeit smaller but no crises. According to your numbers at 4% increase pr year even if 19 year olds are marrying 18 year olds, that should leave 4% of chassidish girls unmarried.

What you are missing is you are skipping to the end of the process whent he backlog is earlier.

Shidduchim is a process. A girl/guy wont get married until they o through the ENTIRE thing. You can not skip a step. I outlined the steps before I will do so again:

a. Shadchan suggests girls to the boys side.

b. Boy looks into girl(s) and agrees to go out with one

c. Girl who has been chosen looks into guy and agrees to go out with him

d. They go out for a few weeks

e. They get engaged

f. They get married

Do you have any quibles with the above outline?

assuming you dont. In your opinion/experience at which stage is the biggest problem. Obviously this is the first step to determine the cause of the “crises” (Sure their are those who get stuck at each step along the way for example engagements that dont make it to marriage e -> f, but i dont think anybody would say that is where all these single girls get stuck).

The article you quoted, and I agree, that the BIGGEST (not only) backlog is a -> b.

What do you think?

AZ feel free to answer too

AZ,

I am still amused since in an effort to promote this “age gap” nonsense you are now making stuff up. Chasidim are generally older than their wives. Granted not as much as among their Litvish counterparts but older nonetheless. According to the “age gap” theory why wouldnt they have a shiduch crises albeit less than in the yeshiva world?

Nice try but no cigar.

hint: Compare the way they date vis a vis the way the yeshiva world dates. There you will find a significant difference.

Also note that you have yet to address why this “crises” is new. Although if you will resort to making stuff up, Id rather you didnt and just say you dont know.

I told you I dont know the reality though i am willing to accept that there are more older single girls than guys. This is logical and inevitible and likely not to change since guys have an easier time marrying people younger than they. Age gap or no age gap. thus for example a 30 year old guy is likely to marry any girl in ages 23 – 30 (very rough estimate obviously) while a 30 year old girl has little chance at marrying anybody younger than say 28. (Although obviously anything is possible, here i am discussing liklihood. Thus as they age it gets harder for Girls to marry than for guys thus obviously there will be more single girls.

You can call it the definition of the crises, it is still wrong as Ive explained.

while asking if i agree, I’m curious if you agree with the assertion that there are many girls (at all ages) who are having trouble getting dates (I have taken a stance on your observation twice as of this post)

AZ, unsure but it is irrelevant.

If I had to guess I’d say there are more girls (though I and my family know of more boys so I cant be sure) simply because Men tend to marry women younger than they.

Though as explained at length this has little to nothing to do with the “crises” in its current form which stems from the fact that women aren’t getting dates in spite of the fact that there are plenty available.

Now your turn to answer a question or 2, why would chassidim not have this “crises” Is it because they marry the the same age or their numbers arent increasing?

Similarily why the sudden talk of “Crises” which of the above variables changed?

Dy,

boys arent limited there are always new ones entering the pool, the numbers aren’t stagnant.

focusing on the numbers is a sham. The numbers have not changed.

What has changed is the rigidity involved in dating, the amount of research that goes into each date, and limting of venues for boys/girls to meet. The way our shiduch system is set up, the ball is complelty in the guy’s court and the girls are at their mercy. This allows boys to reject girls for inane reasons, read the Yated’s shiduch forum you will find plenty. (example a few weeks ago there was talk of someone rejecting a girl because her father wore blue shirts to work). However becuase it is so rigid and the girl cant really make a move before the boy does, thus out of 112 girls many arent getting dates, and obviously wont get married. Limiting the number of boys wont change that unless some other societal norms are changed.

Note they dont have to be “left-ward” changes getting rid of dating and just setting up pairing up boys and girls likre chasidim too wold get rid of the crises too. This is why they dont hve a crises. They have the same “age-gap” yet no crises, what they do different is their style of dating, whcih is what we do differently compared to our parents as well.

Dy

hooray so we agree “If she expects a mothers day wish There is a mitzvah deorisa to wish her happy mothers day.”

change expect to appreceiate, point is the same.

We have been through this, I know he says that but it doesn’t make sense. note how he switches what he is addressing in his piece he first identifies the problem as “infrequent dating” His mathematical model addresses a “situation in which elements of two distinct sets (think of single men and single women) may be paired in a one-to-one manner (think of marriage)” dating is not done 1:1

It cant be a result of the gap. I will walk you through it very slowly, please let me know which point confuses you:

1) dating is a prerequisite to marriage

2) 100 23 year old boys are trying to date 112 20 year old girls

3) On average a boy dates 3 girls

4) That means there are 300 (3x 100) dates available to the 112 girls.

5) Assuming things are equal Each girl should receive a rougly equal number of dates.

6) “many single women struggle with short lists and relatively infrequent dating”

7) Without daing these girls who aren’t being chosen for dates (despite the overabundance of dates available) will not get married (see point 1)

8) This has little to do with the “age gap”. Since even with the “age gap” There are more than enough dates to go around.

Which point confuses you/ do you disagree with?

DY

If the issue wasnt a lack of dates ie girls were getting a roughly equal number of dates, yet some just werent getting married. Then, MAYBE the “age gap” could explain the problem.

Similarly if Guys dated only one girl.

DY,

Furthermore keep in mind the key to all this is determining what has changed that there is a crises now

Is the “age gap” new?

Or is the increase in, as you put it, “common criteria” new?

DY out of the 112 girls the 300 dates that the 100 guys can provide (assuming an average of 3 which admittedly I got from a very un-scientific poll) Should more than cover all girls. The issue shouldnt be girls struggling with “short lists and relatively infrequent dating” All girls should get an equal number of dates though a few dont get married.

The calculations made in his article assume a “situation in which elements of two distinct sets (think of single men and single women) may be paired in a one-to-one manner (think of marriage)” This holds true for marriage but not dating. By far most Guys date more than one girl And some a lot more.

Therfore the age gap can not be used to explain why girls aren’t getting dates.

what is happening is within the set of 112 girls some girls are getting a lot more dates (with the 100 guys) than others. Some hardly get any. This has absolutely nothing to do with the “Age gap” Needless to say if girls have trouble getting dates they will have a harder time getting married. But again this is not because of the “age gap”

In short, the boys are going out with a subset of the available girls. Not because there aren’t enough boys.

Dy You are right my point 2 is not the best since it applies ot the girls I misspoke. If 11% of Girls marry their age or younger their is no age gap, but admittedly that is probably the case and is impractical. Although it does mitigate the “age gap” somewhat

as to the the fertility rate I dont want to google anything, those numbers are irrelevant since they have little bearing on frum society. The numbers that matter are frum high school graduates (These are not the actual numbers we care about but are the closest that can be accurately obtained)

At any rate my point #3 still stands. The problem is girl aren’t getting dates. This has nothing to do with the “age gap”

Mop we dont!

Many don’t buy in to the “age gap theory” or at best view it as (a minor) part of the problem.

consider the following:

1) why can’t they provide real numbers it cant be that hard to ask a few schools to anonymously report how many students are in their graduating classes. We aren’t stupid we can handle numbers they claim a 4% growth rate where did this number come from? Ami magazine ran a several page “expose” on the “age gap” Not one real number was thrown out just colorful bubbles demonstrating a growth rate several magnitudes higher than any imagined by “age gap” proponents

2)Even Accepting their numbers the problem only holds true if ALL boys marry girls 3 years younger. If as little as 11% marry girls their age or older there is no “age gap” If less than that marry girls their age or older or girls a little younger than themselves the “age gap” would become an even more minor problem. Ask around this is certainly the case.

3) The shidduch process in our community works something like this: shadchan suggests girl, boy’s side looks into her, Boys side agrees, girls side looks in and agrees, they date, get engaged and married. Asking around the problem in the chain is that girls arent getting enough dates. (Generally, admitedly I dont have real data to back up this anecdotal evidence but hey neither do the :age gap” proponents).

Now going back to the numbers pushed by the “age gap” people assuming a 4% growth rate, that means 112.5 23 year olds are trying to marry 100 20 year old girls. The average guy dates 3 girls (some less some mouch more) that means 112.5 guys go on 337.5 dates. That is more than enough dates for all 100 girls. Yet the gilrs who arent getting married arent getting dates either. This cant be explained by the “age gap” at all

nfgo3 the source of the post is irrelevant. It is the information itself that is importnat. As the Rambam says “ushma haemes mimi sheomro.”

All medical associations are in agreement that folic acid decreases the risk of spina bifida. The generally recommended dose is 0.4 mg for average woman. Women who are at increased risk (older, have had affected child) should take 4.0 mg.

It is important for women of child bearing age to take this if their is a chance of them getting pregnant since the benefits are within the first 28 days (this is when the neural tube closes). For many women, beginning taking the supplements once they find out is too late.

Sam 2 and Halevai,

even if the correct girsa is eiruv tavshilin, it isn’t a stretch to accept that the avos observed Rosh hashana, and made erev tavshilin.

Keep in mind particulars of erev tavshilin are learnt from psukim in nechemiah about R”H.

Halevai, its a yes or no question. I’ll take your response as a yes. Certainly not impossible but strange to say it said “shema yisroel…” I wonder if avrohom ever wondered who yisroel was. (note: if it didn’t say shema it isn’t Tefilin in which case your answer would be no, “accomplish in another way” means he didn’t wear Tefilin. If I accomplish Tefilin by meditating with sticks or tantzing ah kezatzke that may be beutiful but it isn’t Tefilin)

Ok next this one is harder, was he mikayem zechiras amalek. Yes or no?

(only 611 to go)

DY

I know a frei yid who has served as a mashgiach to make milk chalav yisroel when the regular mashgiach couldnt make it.

DR, you are making an assumption ” you can basically get the same product”. You may think it us the same, I do too. But to them it is not the same. Period. This is the answer

It is solely because of the NRA that this bill didn’t get passed. They have the blood of the next innocent children on their hands. A majority of the US supported the bill, it passed the house a majority of senators did, even they themselves supported it a few years back. Yet here we are EXACTLY where we were Dec 13. After every shooting the slight silver lining is that it pushes people to acknowledge we have a problem, and to start fixing it would be closing a loophole that allows ANYBODY to get a gun.

Also I’m not going after them, they are thoroughly evil people who will one day have to answer for any deaths legislation theyve blocked could have prevented, but I support their right to be evil

No gangs in Europe? You have got to be kidding their inner cities look the same as ours. (google gangs in europe)

I’d like to think our legal system is more similar to England and France than Russia. If we get our act together their is no reason we cant achieve homicide rates that are closer to theirs

I’m sorry I see how that was confusing. There are two distinct classes of homicides in my mind and i’m sure you’d agree since it was you who first identified 1 of those subsets.

There is one group of gang related these are mostly (all?) with illegal guns. You indicated that this accounts for less than half to half of all homicides. These would probably not be limited by background checks. These are a result of deep cultural norms and societies with values completly different than our own. These (the pereptrators and victims)are generally people who are part of that culture/society with little to no hope of breaking free solving this problem will take a lot more than gun control laws. I dont quite get why they should be excluded from US stats but not foreign stats. again though even if we did you still have to fudge the numbers to make them close.

There is another larger group which includes most other homicides. These would be drasticly reduced by preventing the wrong people from getting their hands on guns. If we enforce are current laws we wouldbe sitting ducks for mentally unstable people who want to gun down innocents. They cant just walk into a gun shop and buy a gun (B”H) but they can take advantage of a gun show sized loophole and buy as many guns as they can carry no questions asked.

Neither of these groups are a result of culture as in TV/movies (which is what I assumed you meant when you first brought up culture way back when)

dafyomi2711

They don’t mean literary kol hatorah kula,

did he write a sefer Torah?

Was he mekayem michiyas amalek? zechiras amalek?

Was he mikayem sipur yetziyas Mitzrayim?

At any rate your statement “he studied the same torah we have nowadays! the same gemara the same chumash” Cannot be correct, as you conceded in your second comment “chumash must have been a little different”

DY, according to you and many poskim it is not subject to changeAnd that us fine I rely in them too. Even R’ shechter relies on them and yang moche when the hashgacha he copaskens for allows it.

(there are other things as well)

I’m sorry I’m supposed to accept your data-less assertations while you deny factual data.?Both France and England have lower homicide rates than we do (about 4 times lower).

(again in spite if same violent movies/tv).

You are right about suicide though, for example Japan has very strict gun regulation (and thus a very low homicide rate) but a very high suicide rate due to a bizzare cultural thing.

DY

I think the issue is the metzius MAY have changed. The gemara assumes rov cows are kosher. I don’t know remember the technical details but R’ shechter’s holds this to no longer be true and that rov cows are treifa. Therfore every cow would be assumed to be a treifa unless checked, thus making all milk treif unless came from a cow that was checked and found to be kasher.

1) Even if that would work (it wouldnt as ive pointed out several times europe and Canada have the same violent movies and TV).

Do you view the “right to bear arms” as more important than free speech?

2) I suppose i agree. I think this law would have saved lives.

4) Ca in of itself doesnt prove. it but comparing it to the states with looser restrictions and more homicdes does.

BTw read up on australia, they have a resounding success story with gun control

5) The law the NRA turned down explicitly banned such a database.

6) agreed!

I second the thanks to the mods