ubiquitin

Square

“Furthermore, it is wrong to needlessly delay the performance of any mitzvah.”

emphasis on “needlessly”

And your post cracked me up.
Ok so theres a magen avraham but hes arguing on a mefarush “hakehl shul community bulletin” who does this guy think he is

“Therefore, you can safely bet everything you own that Jews will NEVER abandon this minhag under ANY circumstances,”

Thats a beutiful setment.
True maligim like you arise every so often people wh think they know better and scoff at klaal Yistoel. but even for money Klal yisroel will stand by their mesroa.
Its beautiful to see how crazy it drives you

“Each individual can decide what he wants to pay for in a capitalist society. If enough people decide to pay for the CDC, it will exist. If not, it won’t. Why are you so afraid of leaving it up to this?”

Markets have their failures.
Look up negative externality

NC

“You’re consistent in your shittah of seemingly always supporting government, and I’m consistent in my shittah of seemingly* never supporting it.”

That isnt my shita. but yes You’re consistent I didn’t mean to imply otherwise

when conversation first began and you said “I don’t public health should exist as a concept.t” I thought I would “get you” statement was (and is) so preposterous to me that I assumed 1) you dint know what public health was (are we differed on what was included) or 2) you hadnt thought the statment through

I was completely wrong
You have your shita driven by, I’m not sure what exactly, but interesting nonetheless
But it isnt a “public health” shita. At first I (wrongly) assumed it was. thats what I meant by my comment.
Granted I dont have a soley “public health” shita either, but the conversation started with your statement which I thought was about public health

“If the majority, or even plurality of people drive Fords, should I have to drive a Ford instead of anything else?”
no.
See I dont always support the government. There should be no regulation requiring everyone to buy Fords

“You like the services that the CDC and NIH provide, so you can pay for them, but I don’t, so why should I have to?”
Because you benefit from them. And even if you think you don’t or even if you actually dont its part of living in society. Same as if you oppose war your taxes fund wars. You are of course free to vote for an anti-war candidate or and anti-CDC candidate. But at some point collective decisions need to be made and not every indicdual is happy (You knew this I dont get what your getting at)

“With guns and lawsuits.”
Am I right in assuming you oppose gun limiting legislation? what about machine guns? heavy weapons/explosives such as bazookas/ grenades? chemical weapons? any restrictions on those?

Also how are the judges apointed who enfoirces their decisions?

(* you stuck in “seemingly” was this intentional? is there some government entity/regulation that you do support that I haven’t uncovered?)

NC

I dont understand your question
1) Are you sure theres no shemetz issur in saying AD . Mishna in Sanhedrin says saying an A”Z is “my God” is a chiyuv sekila. Saying “In the year of our lord 2025 ” sounds adjacent to that
2) Even if not assur. and not strictly logical ok so what its emotional AD certainly makes me uncomfortable. why is it bad to say somehting that makes people more comfortable even if built on emotion rather than logic ?
3) I’m not sure there ever was a period where “everyone used BC and AD” These are generally used in historical context no one says “I was born in 1948 AD” or “he died in 1986 AD”) Was there ever popular history books geared to a frum audience that used BC/AD . Artscroll certainly never used it . I have an older History of the JEws written by one Solomon Grayzel published in 1947 that uses BCE/CE. Are you sure BC/AD were in regular use among frum people?

Amom
I didmt miss your point.
Im in healthcare I’ve thought about it a lot too.

You were comparing hstzolah to 911. They aren’t comparable.for the several reasons I’ve outlined
Furthermore

Hospitals have plenty of competition. Some are good some not so much. A problem is when someone has a heart attack he can’t exactly ask around for which ambulance service or hospital is the best nor the cheapest

NC

forgive me I have lots of pending comments, but I genuinely find this interesting.

you are exactly right in your analysis of how the conversation progressed

In a pending comment I wrote in response to your comment “I’m arguing that the only people making life altering decisions should be the individuals involved. It’s nobody else’s business.”

That isn’t completely true. Depends how you define “individuals involved” obviously you polluting water supply or not paying your fire insurance affects others, arguably those too are “individuals involved” yet they cant stop you

I think this is the crux of our discussion.
when your decisions DOES affect me do I get a say. , I would assume you’d say no its solely your decision Even if you have say TB you should be allowed to travel the world as you see fit . You should be allowed to dump your toxic by products wherever you want (in public areas) – correct me if I’m wrong.
(You seem to offer conflicting responses since a few posts were defending why private fire departments would be better – if I understand you correctly it doesnt matter, If you choose not to pay for fire insurance and set fire to your house 10 feet from mine during a dry windy season that is yoru right Even if it was a worse system still nobody;’s business what decisions you make. correct?)
Do I have this right?

and other issue of people who cant make their own decisions, whci you conceded was a “kasha”

NC

“I’m arguing that the only people making life altering decisions should be the individuals involved. It’s nobody else’s business.”

That isn’t completely true. Depends how you define “individuals involved” obviously you polluting water supply or not paying your fire insurance affects others, arguably those too are “individuals involved” yet they cant stop you

NC

Just to clarify a point in my most recent post .
I said “Your system sounds evil. sure government has its problems but these are bugs not features. Your approach is designed this way”

What I mean is any problem with the government, my response is “ok lets work to fix it” Government led to holocaust? Ok lets have a system with checks and balances/separation of powers to prevent one branch (certainly individual) from becoming too strong. Any other problem you identify my response will be the same, ok lets fix it. The “fix” may even be ok lets give that role to the private sector.
Plus the private sector ALSO exists so going back to my original point of discussion regarding clean water. I’m on board with allowing individuals to sue if an entity contaminates water supply. I am not saying leave it solely to the government. I dont think thats enough PLUS as alluded to in last psot STILL need government to adjudicate the lawsuit and to enforce its decision
with your system when there are problems (and there are plenty as I identified) repsosne is thats just the way it has to be.

Also your original comment that first intrigued me namely “I don’t public health should exist as a concept.” was a bit of an understatement. within your worldview of course you don’t

“I don’t think you really mean this. I think you treat government as the fallback solution when nothing else is obvious.”

Even if thats true, that doesnt contradict what I said to which you “Agreed in theory,” what I said was ““I’m not looking for an all encompassing solution. Each area can be different.”
So manufacturing works better in private hands let them handle it
Fire fighting works better in Government hands (for arguments sake) let them handle it
education not sure which is better no obvious solution so we’ll fallback on the government until we come up with a less obvious/ better approach that may not involve the government. This doesnt contradict what I said at all .
In other words I DO treat government as a fallback solution when nothing else is obvious at the same time I’m not looking for an all encompassing solution. Each area can be different.

“. My shittah is that if there are problems that aren’t financially advantageous enough to be naturally dealt with within a free capitalistic system, then they aren’t truly worth dealing with at all no matter how cold that may sound.”

Not just cold it sounds evil (as you sort of concede “Any crimes where the victims cannot functionally stick up for themselves (child abuse, animal abuse, elder abuse, poisoning a town’s water supply) are good arguments you could use against me”
not thinking that child abuse is a problem “truly worth dealing with” is more than cold

“This renders all of those statements meaningless. If they’re all allowed to be subjective, then I will just declare that I personally think the government solution is subjectively worse. That’s just my opinion, but you left it up to my opinion with this clause.”

Not at all Again there is no “government solution”
If you define “better” as tasting better, cleaner, safer, cheaper, better for teeth. However we define it the government can regulate accordingly . If you define better as more poisonous we can do that too! More likely it will be a balance of all of the above (except more poisonous that is more likely with your capaitilistic system)

” since it’s unlikely an entire building would not pay for protection”

Lol! this literally made me laugh out loud. not unlikely it is a certainty some people wouldn’t pay. (I know people who intentially set fires, you think they have “remembered” to pay for the fire fighting ) . and again “unlikely ” is not good enough. If it is “likely ” that my neighbor 10 feet away rmebered to pay annual fire service bill , that is not very reassuring .

“need to feel like everything is “free” because we ignore the fact that we pay for it with taxes.”

It isnt ignoring the fact. It is a feature of the system

“I appreciate your restraint. My position could be called a lot worse than odd. Genuinely, I really do appreciate how interested you seem to be in something that 99% of people would just swear off as “crazy” almost right away.”

In this post, My restraint waned a bit (sounds evil) , but it is fascinating . . Ive had these discussions before (simplistic statements like FDA shouldn’t exist or Public health shouldn’t exist etc) you’re the first who is sticking to this “cold” (your word) evil sounding shita Kudos I guess?

Is it your own? Ive met liberterians before, but as you said earlier you arent really a libertarian. Closer to an Anarchist. Do you oppose all government?
Who or what shaped this ideology of yours?
(Im not big on arguments of authority the few times you thought I made one I wasnt eg the Rambam wasnt a reply to you and same in time zone thread reg Aguda) rather to spare you endless questions and this back and forth sometimes takign day for post to go up is a bit ineffcent — maybe government could do better 🙂 )

“There are plenty of people that die as a result of government as well..nobody has an all-encompassing solution”

I’m not looking for an all encompassing solution. Each area can be different.

I dont want the government regulationing everything no matter what.

Does government control over manufacturing result in better outcomes* ? If yes then govt should control of not then not

Does government control over healthcare result in better outcomes* ? If yes then govt should control of not then not

Does government control over education result in better outcomes* ? If yes then govt should control of not then not

Does government control over public health result in better outcomes* ? If yes then govt should control of not then not

Your position is a bit odd to me though overall consistent. Even if it would result in “better outcomes” you don’t want them involved. .
But it’s not like I’m saying they should always be involved.
There are areas where unquestionably need govt involvement. For example where your decidions impact other people . Suing you after the fact is too little too late.

I recall once reading of a community with private fire department you made a small annual fee and if rl was a fire they came to put it out. Someone who hadn’t paid had a fire they let it burn. Tgis would never work in a dense place like NY. Here it works better run by government . Does this mean govt should only run fire department if they can do everything better? Of course not. Each area is separate. I’m not looking for an “all encompossing solution”

(*however we define it)

AAQ
Great point there you have a specific exception for a specific reason
Its Nedarim 80b as “Rashi” explains because cheyecha kodmin there isnt enough water for everyone so chayecha kodmin presumably based on B”M 62a (theres a machlokes whether water for washing clothes comes before drinking water for downstream people)

Again I am not suggesting EVERY thing should be regulated, so even if this is an example of deregulation, and it very well might be, it doesnt undermine my point.

chazal have many many regulations on what you can do in your property. In the 2nd Perek of Bava Basra you’ll find restrictions on what you can do with waste, noise pollution (for example 20b) , environmental pollution (25a) .

At first I thought these weren’t good examples, since I was under the impression that from a halachic standpoint there is no distinction between criminal and civil. as opposed to lehavdil the US.

Meaning in America as I understand it even if I am allowed to do something if someone gets harmed they can sue me. So NC’s argument (as I understand it) is there should be no regulation on where I discharge my waste and if someone gets harmed (and realizes i t and can afford a lawyer and can prove causation) he’ll sue (of course with the hope being that my fear of a lawsuit will prevent me from misbehaving in the first place).

At first glance I thought the B”B examples were not relvent since there is no “suing” in halacha if I acted properly .Generally speaking If I have a right to do something and someone gets damaged thats on them. Therefore we need halacha to say I am not allowed to do something.

However when flipping through the relevant blat this is clearly not correct. Mishna B”B 20b gives oven safety regulations how far oven has to be from floor/ceiling. Thers a machlokes in Mishna if damage happens even if I followed the regulations am I liable?. Rambam Shecheinim 9:11 and MEchaber CM 155:1 both pasken are chayav. Clearly the regulation is NOT just to allow the damaged to sue for damages .

NC

The Government can (and does) set regulations BEFORE they occur. These regulations can be enforced BEFORE they cause damage.

Yes if there are victims they need money but the point of regulations is to prevent victims

I don’t understand your next paragraph.
Under your proposal I can dump toxic substances into local drinking supply. Until someone is harmed (and knows they are) cand can prove that my substance caused their harm i’m good. It might ne worth taking that risk.
Even if you know I’m polluting your water supply. The only way to stop me is to get haarmed.

That doesn’t seem like a good approach.

Yo usay “If a big company wrongs people living in upstate NY…” The idea of regulation is to stop them before the people are harmed.

Maybe I’m not being clear,
Drunk driving probably doesn’t fall under “public health” (or does it?)
Should there be a law banning drunk driving?
I say yes. The idea is to stop the drunk driver BEFORE he hurts someone. Sure he can be sued if/when he hurts someone. but a. That is still tru with government regulation, and 2) that is too little too late once the damage has been done.
Same thing here it wouldn’t suffice to let the private sector sue companies AFTER thyeve committed damage ( and is known and can be proven) the idea is to stop it before

AAQ
“I am not saying I am against all regulation,”
Then we agree!

“This may be a silly argument when you are suggesting full gov regulation v. full lack of it”
I agree completly
Though at no point did I say “full gov regulation”
NC did say full lack of it whci hsurprised me “I don’t public health should exist as a concept.”

NC
“Any other questions?”
Yes please

How would some of these be done privately
Lets start with one Specifically environmental regulations . I have a factory that produces hazardous waste fumes, heavy metals all of that stuff
how should tI “privalty:” be prevented from pumping my toxic fumes into the air and radioactive waste into the local drinking supply ?

2scents

“Yet you make him seem like some silly goose who tweets randomly and doesn’t even know what he himself meant.”

Lets use onse specific example

He famously tweeted “Covfefe”

Do you htink this was more than a random tweet?
If yes then clearly he does tweet randomlly (at least sometimes)

He welcomed back “Melanie” from the hospital do you think Melania briefly changed her name to Melanie or was that a typo?
If yes then clearly he does have occasional typos?

Why are you so sure that THIS tweet is one that he fully thought through and meant

And here’s the real kicker

In 2019 he tweeted the Opposite:

““Making Daylight Saving Time permanent is O.K. with me,” (3/11/19)
OF course he MAY have changed his mind .

but this does not seem to be the most likely explanantion

NC

“If other people want to take risks with their own lives, it shouldn’t bother you.”

This is silly.

1) No vaccine is 100% effective
2) your health does affect me, putting aside the both as a frum person I am required to care about you, but even as a felow human, there is an element of communal responsibility. You probably disagree with htis, so I’lll include a bottom line approach as well if someone gets sick from Polio we all pay for it both in the literal sense whether through insurance/govt if Medicare and by taking up medical time
3) some cant get a vaccine for one reason or other..

you can certainly argue on all these points iff cant get vaccine well thats not your problem, and can have a system where hose who chose not to get a vaccine and then get Polio are left to die in the street though this too comes with its drawbacks

which brings me to this
“If the government stays out of people’s business, we don’t have problems.”
this is demonstrably false

the eradication of smallpox is a huge accomplishment its an odd take to say ” I don’t public health should exist as a concept. I have my approach to my health and you have your’s” Polio was almost eradicated

There are other vital areas of Public health
Poison control is an invaluable resource
Clean water
sewage management
these are all included in Public health
Are you really arguing that you should deal with your waste, and I am free dto do with my waste as I please?

Not to mention Environmental issues, sure you probably believe they go to far. Are you saying everybody should be free to discharge whatever the ywant into the air?

strangest of all RFK doesn’t want to get rid of the FDA in fact he wants to greatly expand it by limiting more chemicals in foods.
Are you arguing that there should be no regulation of food/medicines Let the free market decide..
Try my medicine, if it works then more people wil buy it, if you get sicker or die, well then I guess demand for it will drop]Is that your approach?

In short are you saying there should be
vaccine program?
Food regulations?
environmental regulations ?
drug safety?
govt funded health resources (eg Poison control)

If you answered yes to ANY of these ie some of these should exist to some extent then you do in fact believe in public health
If no you believe these shouldn’t exist thank you for taking the time to read this

2scents

I htink youre giving Trump to much credit

his tweets are often fleeting thoughts often with spelling errors often contradicting each other .
while Ihe did tweet hos “proposal” do get rid of DST I’m not sure he knew wah the meant

As NC correctly points out MArco Rubio, is cleary pro permanent DST and in his tweet Elon supported permanent DST as well

You say
“To broaden your limited understanding, a simple Google search will reveal the 1966 Uniform Time Act, which prohibits year-round DST. However, year-round Standard Time is not illegal.
At this point, the federal government cannot expand DST to be all year, nor does it make sense for most states to do so.”

I don’t get this the 1966 act was a law by congress, ie the federal government they can just as easily change it as they almost did a few years ago .
you also say ” Trump was clear in his message,” was there any message other than tweet ?

(admittedly it was clear though again I’m not sure how much weight to give it)

NC

“You’re simply wrong. Everybody knows that Litvishers marry at an age gap ”

Im not interested in what “everybody knows” Im interested in facts.
I fully get that this doesnt interest you. Beseder. I am NOT trying to convince you. I dont find arguments over belief prodcutive. This is your belief you will not change your mind. Ok

“Huh? This has nothing to do with anything. Nobody cares about whether or not people can go on dates”

This is demonstrably false. I see you havent been following the discussion over years. this is ALWAYS the complaint . It was mentioned in this thread as i posted a verbatim quote . So again while YOUd odnt care this it undermines your beleief system, others do .

” If there is a surplus of let’s say 5 thousand women this past year, then it’s perfectly possible that every women gets to date, ”
Yes! Exactly! , yet that isnt what is happening . this CANNOT be explaiend by the age gap (as you all but acknowlegde) – though again Ive had thsi discussion years ago ok dates dont matter marriage does I get it

“Your “data” (if it actually exists) ”
It exists source provided above , data by Yosef Sokol (was YWN article on it trying to debunk it by R Yair Hoffman)
I know I know the data is no good. spare me
I dont think it will convinve you I really get it

“I’m not sure what I can say to convince you of the easily observable minhag. ”
Probably nothing
You cna provide data., thats all.

But again. I dont need to be convinved Ive heard it all this is not a new topic its ben discussed again and again (though Im a little surprised yu never heard of the complaitn that girls arent gettign dates)
The tumult is now over 10 years old

IT is fair to ask if there are any updates. has the age gap narroewed ? are there less singles? is the problem better ? worse ? same ? etc etc
IF you dont have any ok say no updates we need to keep working at narrowing the gap .Forever nothing else to do. Ok that is your response I haear it loud and clear
IF someone else has updates let them provide them

” If you think there is, then you don’t understand the problem.”

So never?

We dont have to rehash the tired old stuff IVe heard it all .

“If I had a room of 10 men and 15 women and had to match them up for marriage with no polygamy, you accept that there would be 5 women leftover, right?”

Yes.

“If a population is growing exponentially, you accept that the population born 5 years later at any given time will exceed that born 5 years earlier, right?”
Yes

“Do you accept that the frum population is growing exponentially?”

Yes

“If you answered yes to all of these, then mazel tov you believe in the shidduch crisis whether you admit it or not. If you answered no to any of these, then you are objectively wrong.”

No. there are other missing pieces . how many of the men are exiting for other reasons (eg off the derech)
Is the age gap really that wide? (real data says no)
Shiduchim arent “closed rooms” more people are always entering some women marry men older than them. Your analogy is cute and simple but not reflective of reality

and not to mention the most obvious as another poster pointed out “a normal girl from a typical family can go six months without dating a boy thats even close” this is not due to the Age gap for the simple reason that people date more than one person.

so in your of room of 10 men and 15 women. If each man sat with say 5 women before choosing one. IT would be very odd if after the dust settles and the 10 men went on their 50 dates 5 women never got dates. This cannot be explained by the age gap..

Again I get that you dont find this convincing and are married to the simple Age gap . fine I am not trying to convince you

You believe there is no other option. Ok

anyone else ?

I too am interested in response to UJM’s OP

NC

“Closing the gap would help. It’s not something that needs to be tested. ”
while it might help
I dont think that is the main part of the problem I also dont think there s a way to actually close it.
That said I understand their is a dogma associated with this and questioning it and asking for real data, not to mention provinding data that undermines it is met with fierce opposition.

My question is at what point do we say ok, it isnt clossable, lets look for another solution. 10 years ? 20 years ? 30 ?

AAQ

FWIW R’ Moshe explicitly rejects this argument. in the Teshuva referenced above

NC

“This is a bad argument,”

I guess thats where we disagree. The Agudau (hopefully) responds to its constituents . If tEarly Fridays was a big problem they would know Rabbanoim would know and deal with it. You are suggesting we allow a definite problem to avoid an issue tha t you “are sure there are cases of…” and a few anecdotal well known stories. I dont find that persuasive.

I agree though that it isnt the biggest deal and we’ll adjust ok so daven beyichidus at work put on tefilin at a bedieved time for a few months (anyway we rely on that if theres shaas hadechak etc) it isnt the biggest deal.

I was surprised to see the Teshuva from R” Moshe encouraging they fight it vigourously.

My bigger concern is that it was tried before (year round DST) and it became very unpopular in a few months with congess quickly swithing back.

Happy New year
putting aside the inaccuracies in your post regarding Shkiya
You say “And most frum people live in places when sundown is at 430 nowadays. This is a BIG problem.”

Can you eloborate ? while certainly challenging, in what way is it a big problem?

“It is not. You are free to run your own business at any time you want”

This is silly
1) many people aren’t in charge of their own hours
2) even those that are are at the whims of the public

“With all due respect, I’d give more weigh…”
Thats fair, thats why I introduced that point with “FWIW…” (for what its worth)

“What argument? That Shabbos matters more than zman hatefilla? Zero chance.”

Yes. read the teshuva (though he wasn’t talking about your exact concern, which seems like less of a concern than his)

Is that a real issue though among people you know ? they are mechalel shabbos Fridays in the winter? (not is it hard, have they come close etc)

“Why? The Sun will still rise and set as it does. We will just refer to it by a different number on a clock. Nothing is changing astronomically; it’s purely mental as he said.”

Because the “number on the clock” matters more than the Astronomical time
Meaning yes If all of society changed their practice and woke up at 7 instead of 6, “9-5 workday” became 10-6 schools started at 9 instead of 8 ended at 5 instead of 4 etc etc then he’d be right

but that isnt what will happen (obviously) We (society) will keep waking up at 6 with work day being 9-5 etc etc but with difficulties with zemanim

Will we adjust? for sure It isnt the biggest deal but society is largely driven by the clock not the sun. It is bizzare to suggest otherwise
what you say “We will just refer to it by a different number on a clock. ” is what drives society while yes nothing changes astronomically (obviously) we dont fucntion astronomically

And memah nafshach, if the clock doesn’t matter. S owho cares if the clock changes teice a year. Ignore it! after all “Nothing is changing astronomically” You can do it today chaneg your wtch back to DST 2 PM becomes 1 PM go to sleep. go to work tomorrow at 10 AM EST ie 9 on your clock . Tell your bos like AAQ that your coming in hour late tomoorw (he said early but presumably he menat late) problem solved.
sure it will be confusing if others refer to your 9 as 8, but it shouldn’t be confusing nothing is changing astronomically its all purely mental

(dont get caught up on these exact times probably arent any real 9-5 jobs left, and I dont know what time you get up just using 6 as example)

Thanks for briniging it up
it HAS been a while

years ago I pointed out some flaws in the idea behind the Age gap TM theory.
I predicted that therefore efforts to close the “age gap” would not help .
for reasons not entirely clear to me this really upset people at the time, and they refused to entertain other solutions that might help (that may be why they were so upset)

Since then Yosef sokol has released data essentially debunking the premise

At the time I said lets revisit this in 10 years (sadly knowing that were just kicking the can down the road)

has it been that long already ?

would love to hear an update from NAsi or @Az and its other ardent defenders

“The reason we sit low is because it is a sign of availus and has nothing to do with comfort.”

This is absolutely incorrect

See Yoreh Deah hilchos aveilus

“Ubi, President needs to lead, especially in international crises. See the discussion between Yidden and Shmuel regarding the King.”

I disagree (and the yidden were criticized) but I hear the perceived advantage of a strong executive unencumbered (Ok less encumbered) by laws.

What I dont understand is how this helps commies. Are you saying it helps foregign commies like china? Because that isnt what BY1212 said. s/he said