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According to the chasam sofer and many others, yes. Take a look at how he explains that this is what made haman so mad – li higid lo ki hu – haman – yehudi, and the biggest insult to a goy is to call him a yid. My question then is kol mah shekana eved kana rabbo, so klapei shamayim haman bought the yiddin for mordechai – why did HKB”H need our shkalim first?
@DaasYochid – That actually is a very geshmack sheila, which I’ve talked about with several Roshei HaYeshivos and talmidei chachamim (can one publicize or point out views that the stater believes are not problematic, but others do (and may be objectively as well) (where such statements do not make them into a rasha)). They all told me that it is probably muttar meikar hadin, as that is what the chofetz chaim is mashma, but that one probably shouldn’t do it anyway or try to find out such a thing (more problems with reading the news). Has anyone here heard anything about this?
Another potential problem is where to build it – the maskana of the gemara is not clear as to if we need a navi or just a mesorah as to where the makom is exactly, and nowadays we don’t have either.
Take a look at where R’ Akiva Eiger, the Chassam Sofer, and many other Achronim have many, many tshuvos about how to practically rebuild the beis hamikdash, and when exactly we are mechuyav.
Isn’t this one of the main purposes of mussar – to take what we know through the Torah that we should b’etzem be doing and ingrain it into ourselves so that it doesn’t even take any thought?
One of the ways we are mechuyav to do something like this is by shema, by active thinking that yes, I would give up my life for the mitzvos.
“You do what u think is right at that moment in conjunction with his / her training and leave the rest up to God.”- God already told you what to do. If you forgot to read your training manual, or listen to those who did, then its your problem. The reason that it is more complicated over here is that by definition you probably cannot go ask a sheila, so similarly to pekuach nefesh sheilos and when to give up your life you must learn them beforehand and work on yourself until you can do the right thing, even if it means giving up your life, without a second’s thought.
I’ll give you a REAL Uber Chacham dikรก answer –
You shouldn’t do anything, and not only that it is assur to switch tracks – as of now, you are in a position where you aren’t doing anything but have the ability to save three people by killing two, or do nothing. Because of the klall of me amrit ddamich dhai samik tfei; that we cannot say that some people are worth more than others, yo cannot kill two people, even if it would save three (take a look at the minchas chinuch on this).
Lesschumras, you seem to be misunderstanding me; let me explain what I meant: the ground level at the highest point of har habais is the lowest possible height of the kodesh hakadashim, which was not that much higher than the floor of the azara. The area underneath the floor of the azara (with the possible exception of the beis haparva according to Tosfos in yoma, but mipashtus even there Tos would agree) has a din of mechilos, which don’t have kedusha. Ergo, the inside of the walls at the current ground level of the kosel plaza (which is more than 15 meters underneath the highest point of bedrock on har habais) , as well as inside the tunnels, with the exception of the northernmost section of the western wall, the northern wall, and all but the southernmost portion of the eastern wall, should, at the worst, have a din of mechilos and not have kedusha of the azara.
I’m sorry if my behirus before caused any confusion.In regards to which rabonim where chayish that it was a wall inside the boundries of har habais, whether of the heichal, the azara, the migdal, beis haknesses or beis hamedresh, or some other building there I’ll try and find the t’shuvos for you, there were a number of them written after 1967, as well as a couple from the times of the later achronim (although finding this kind of thing is much more up GOAN’s alley).
Oh, and it’s kind of funny that you ask if I was ever there – I’m one of the people who hang out there all the time, normally in one of the section that aren’t open to tourists… but yeah, I know what it looks like over there.
Why should it be assur to put your fingers in the cracks – it is definitely under ground level, as bedrock continues over fifteen meters above, so at the worst it should just have a din of michilos, which don’t have kedusha?
Oh, and lesschumras (or should it be chumros?) – please stop stating things as blatant fact when they are actually speculation – there may be some supporting evidence, but it is still just speculation – in particular when, in fact, there are many rabbanim who are cholek.
Where did you hear that it is assur to go in the tunnels? (Unless, of course, you hold that it is assur to go within the couple of feet closest to the Kosel)
It definitely did have a base, but, as far as I remember, there is nowhere in bavli, yerushalmi, medresh rabba or tanchuma, or breisa d’meleches hamishkan that says that it was semi-circular (or any other shape).
LC – They do claim that their Keilim will be used in Bais Shlishi, as otherwise it would be assur to make them because of LoSa’asun Iti – Lo Sa’asun k’dmus shamashi (R”H :ืื), and making them b’tumah is not a problem because you can just be metaher them afterwords. However, their keilim are full of mistakes, and they simply don’t care – I went there with a list of 316 questions (not a typo – there really are that many problems that I noticed) on their keilim a couple of years ago, first asked the people there, then got sent to their kollel (they have a kollel, or at least they used to, upon whom they base (officially) everything they make), then to R’ Arielli (I think his name was), then said that I should give them my list of questions and they would get back to me. Eventually, they sent me responses to four questions, one of which agreed to the question, and another one which was cholek on a befarish Tos’ in Zvachim without a single Rishon to back them up. In one spot they even told me that they made it not like the gemara because, according to them, it wasn’t necessarily assur and the artists liked it more that way.
So no, I’m not exactly such a fan.
In addition, they really should have big problems with mi’illa, as a lot of the money given to them, at least by goyim, is given l’shem bedek habais. I even saw one woman give a hundred dollar bill saying that it was for “a stone for the Temple” once, and it went into the same cash register as everything else. There probably isn’t a problem to just look at their keilim though, as ein meila b’kol ubimareh, but they do other things as well, and I’m not so sure that paying would be muttar.
BaltimoreMaven, I have never heard of them making clothing for Kohanim (other than their clothing on display, in which they make plenty of mistakes, assumptions about what certain materials and processes are in which we have no mesorah and we have many, many mochlokes achronim which they paskened on their own based on practicality (or ignored outright), completely ignore the Yerushalmi in Yoma, and decided, in seven different cases, to go l’kula against the gemara’s teiku (I wonder who they decided Eliyahu haNavi is?). It really is not practical to make these begadim anyway, as they have to be perfectly, and I mean perfectly (look at the gemara in Zvachim), fitted. I also never heard of these classes, but again I wouldn’t assume that they are anything real either – they don’t exactly have a good track record.
Oh, and LC – there was a base to the menorah (I’m not exactly sure what you mean), and ny the northern wall of har habais there was (and still are remnants of, its a muslim school now but you can go there if you bribe the guard when there school isn’t in session if the police don’t catch you) a fortress on the northern wall of har habais which was first built by Yiddin but was later taken by the Romans.
Josef just seems to be stating, quite rightly, that goyim should ask those who know the most about the dinnim which are shayich to them, such as the 7/11 mitzvos and how to deal with yiddin (which is talui on full dinei Torah, and thus very unlikely for them to know on their own. The, daas Torah happens to be the best place for them to get a clea, accurate Psak. Stop trying to put controversial statements in Josef’s mouth, he does it well enough by himself (and sometimes gets people to actually think about things instead of going with their knee-jerk reaction…).
In regards to parking tickets, which are by definition for illegal parking, why don’t we first talk about if there is a din of gezel to park illegally in the first place? After all, the street is land that belongs to the municipality (or state ect.), and they don’t let you park illegally. The police officer is not doing anything, he is just the chosen enforcer, and even if he was doing it of his own will, without any reason to do so whatsoever, would it be bittul Torah? After all, you can just pay the ticket and keep on learning. (I don’t nessecerally lean this way, I’m just trying to get this thread back on track (please, don’t have more reactionary, knee-jerk responses…)
(Mods, some just got cut out the first time… thanks)
Josef just seems to be stating, quite rightly, that goyim should ask those who know the most about the dinnim which are shayich to them, such as the 7/11 mitzvos and how to deal with yiddin (which is talui on full dinei Torah, and thus very unlikely for them to know on their own. Stop trying to put controversial statements in Josef’s mouth, he does it well enough by himself (and sometimes gets people to actually think about things instead of going with their knee-jerk reaction…).
In regards to parking tickets, which are by definition for illegal parking, why don’t we first talk about if there is a din of gezel to park illegally in the first place? After all, the street is land that belongs to the municipality (or state ect.), and they don’t let you park illegally. The police officer is not doing anything, he is just the chosen enforcer, and even if he was doing it of his own will, without any reason to do so whatsoever, would it be bittul Torah? After all, you can just pay the ticket and keep on learning. (I don’t nessecerally lean this way, I’m just trying to get this thread back on track (please, don’t have more reactionary, knee-jerk responses…)
Just pointing out that even if a post in the coffe room counts as befnei shalahshtam (It might not, as there isn’t as much embarrassment because none knows who you are), that only means that when the poster said something that is not necessarily bad it means the less bad statement.
If so, why are they cholek on the material – it doesn’t make a difference if it was eitz, not baatz? Why point it out, as he could be maskim?
“but in the answer ..!?ืืืจื ืื โืืฉื ืจืืื ืฉืคืืืื ืฉื ืืจืื they completely disagreed that it had any Din of a Menorah, and that is the maskonah lโfi the Rogatchover, I donโt think the simple pshat is like that.”
Are you learning that the Rabanan hold that it didn’t have a din of a menorah at all? If so, why didn’t they just say that instead of saying that it wasn’t wooden, rather tin?
GOAN – Just making sure that we’re one the same page here, lfi the Rogachover they used 8 shpudim, one per day, as shpudim shel barzel are golmai cli machteches, which, like we see several times in the gemara in Shabbos, are not mekabel tumah until you are machshiv them (this lechora is a kasha on the Rogachover, as it is taloi on machshava, not maaisa), and therefore they were only mekabel tumah after whey were lit, and therefore wouldn’t be tamei.
I would have thought that in a pashut reading of the Rogachover that they only lit one ner, on one shpud, per night, which had a din of the ner maรกravi, which was the only ner that they were mechuyav in, as there was no mizbayach. However, then the gemara in r”h is shver, as it is clearly talking about shpudim, and very clearly talking about something that has a din of a menorah (as otherwise there cannot be a problem of lo saรกsun iti) with 7 branches.
I would be tempted to say that the gemara and psikta are talking about 2 different maamarim, and have nothing to do with each other at all, except that the gemara sounds like R”Y misheard (read? before rebbi?) the mamar and thought that ืืขืฅ, baatz, tin, ment biรฉitz, with wood, and if there were 2 different maisim they could both be true, as the Rogachover’s Chanukah ner didn’t have a din menorah, as he points out himself, and therefore could have been made out of wood (and it couldn’t have just been one pshutei kli eitz, as it needed to have a ner; i.e. a beis kibul).
Which brings me back to my first (sorry, seventeenth) question (I’m still waiting for answers, by the way. They were all serious questions.), why were they coated in tin (unless, of course, what I just speculated is right, and we have 2 seperate maamarim here)?(Side question (#18): l’fi the same Tos from before, how did they clean it out if it was golmei kli machteches and therefore not shel prakim?)
GOAN, have you ever seen a svara for why it was covered in baatz?
(I always thought that it was because of rust, and maybe that tin rusts more slowly that iron (though it does rust as well), but lfi this Rogachover they didn’t use it for more than one day anyway)Also, the lashon of the gemara about their monetary status is a bit funny if it is talking about tumah, as it only should have been for those 8 days (although his pshat can just be an added benefit to using the shpudim).
Lรงhorah, Titus took everything that he could get. However, take a look at the Avos D’rav Nossan about if he took the menorah. (And just because no one pointed this out yet, yes, there were eleven menorahs in bais sheni as well as bais rishon, as we see both in Yoma and Menachos).
Oh, and while you’re at it, I’d appreciate it if you could change “Josefus” to “Josephus”. Thanks again.
Mods – can you change “(and the amount of oil in them)” in my previous post to “(and the amount of oil they hold)”? Thanks
Winnie – It is possible that the menorah of Moshe was destroyed/taken by Churban Shilo, like I mentioned before, and the “Menorah shel Moshe”mentioned in shas as in the bais rishon means the “real”menorah, which was lit with a chiyuv (and possibly a bracha) once/twice a day.
About the menorahs in bais sheni, there were three menorahs from the time of the chashmonaim, as we see from the gemara in Rosh haShana (I don’t have a gemara with me, but I’m pretty sure it was on :ืื; I’ll try to quote it but I might be off a bit) that they first made it from Shpudim shel barzel v’chipum bbaatz (sticks of iron coated/covered with tin, which sounds like it was probably straight diagonal sticks), heashiru asau shel kesef, chazar vheeshiru asauhu shel zahav.
However, it bears keeping in mind that nothing at all about the menorah is meakev other than the number of neiros (and the amount of oil in them) unless it is made out of gold.There may have also been another menorah made by Talmai, take a look at Josefus (right before the maisah of Chanukah).
I just thought that I’d throw out there one more question, which I may have implied but didn’t actually ask:
If the 2 Batei Mikdash had different menorahs, then clearly they are both kasher, so how can one of them be “wrong”?
Does anyone know who wrote the ืืืจ ืืฉืจืื?
Why would there be a “right” and “wrong” menorah – if it isn’t made out of gold, only the number of branches are meakev, and if it is golden, is the shape meakev? I always thought that just the prachim and geviim were.
Why would the Arch de Triumph (Titus’s arch) prove anything; wasn’t it made before he returned to Rome (with or without the menorah)? I always thought that the point was that the triumph (victory parade) would pass through the arch upon their return to Rome, and therefore it was made in advance (before they stole the menorah).
Still, people would know what the menorah looked like from when the Cohanim would bring it out to show it to the am by the Yomim Tovim (like in the end of Chagiga).
Sorry to distract everyone from the main argument over here, but where is this assumption that there was a difference between the menorahs of bayis rishon and sheni come from?
(It sounds like you all might be coming from the assumption that gold cannot hold its own weight when it is curved (bederech hateva), but it can if it is going at an angle. Is this what you all mean? Is it even true – either half? How thick was the menorah? (Someone with a lot of time on their hands can probably do the math from the weight of a kikar, but I don’t know if a kikar of gold weighed the same as a kikar of silver.)
I think that you also mean that Moshe’s menorah, which was made al pi hanes, didn’t have these problems. But wouldn’t it have been taken by Churban Shilo?
Maybe Shlomo HaMelech had the chochma to make one, as it is possible in a special way?
Tosfos in Menachos says (in one of his pshatim) that the arms of the menorah (in Bayis Sheni) were bendable enough to spill out the oil. If so, it also shouldn’t be able to hold its own weight!?)Thanks.
Sorry for derailing yourfight about Chabad ๐I heard ืืฉื ืจ ืืืกืฃ ืื ืืืจ ืืฆ”ื that after the ื ืก of Chanukah the children of most of klal Yisrael weren’t used to learning and had to be bribed with money to do so (and the fact that we can get them to learn, even if it is through bribery, is part of the simcha, and the fact that we’ll pay money for this shows them how choshuv it is).
I have no idea where he got this from, though.Thanks for pointing out the R’ Avraham ben Harambam, you definitely can read ืืื ืืืืื ื ืืืืืืข ืื ืืกืคืจ ืืืืืขืื ืืืคืชืืจืื ืืืคืจืืื ืืืงืืืชื to be davka those, although I definitely would not say that the Rambam “says that the branches were straight”, at the most he implies it through a picture (even if that part of the picture was accurate.
(It would also make more sense for the Rambam to try to make the shape of the menorah in his picture as accurate as possible, as he is trying to show where the geviim were)About the 2nd sefer you quoted, he says that ืืืืจื ืืจืื”ื ืืจืฉ”ื ืื ”ื ืืจืืจ ืืขืืื ืฉืงื ื ืืื ืืจื ืืฉืจืื, which, legabay the Rambam, is definitely not in his devarim, at least (from R’ Avraham ben Harambam it is, but that isn’t who he is quoting), and all that Rashi says is that it went out ืืืืืกืื, which doesn’t necessarily mean that it went in a straight diagonal line at all, just that it wasn’t flat.
Thanks
If you read what the Rambam says next to the picture (its in the Pirush HaMishnayos in Menachos, Perek Gimmel), he says that he is specifically drawing this picture only to show there the gevios and prachim were on the menorah (and not to imply that the branches were diagonal; it’s just simpler to draw, print (remember, all printing back then was done with what were essentially woodcuts), and see where they were like that).
(It still could be that the picture was accurate in that regard, but there is no real reason to say that.)As far as I can tell, every single mosaic, carving, and picture of the menorah made over 500 years ago is curved, and, in addition, nowhere in Bavli or Yerushalmi, Mechilta, Sifra, or Sifri, Medresh Rabba or Tanchuma, Breisa Dassiyas Hamishcan (and every other Mesechta of Breisos that I’ve seen) does it ever say that the branches of the Menorah were straight (although several of the less meyuchasdika breisos imply that they were curved).
I grew up hearing that it was a machlokes between the Rambam and the other Rishonim, but I’ve never seen a single Rishon (including the Rambam, although I haven’t ‘learned all of the Pirush Hamishmayos yet, nor done such a good job on the yad…) say it was curved, so I would love to know where it comes from.
Please, if anyone knows of a mekor, please tell me of one (and while if any of the Rebbes actually said it in a shiur etc. it would help, but I want a mekor from the Rishonim or earlier, if at all possible).
(Oh, and if anyone can tell me how to use hebrew (and apostrophes – they also aren’t working right) in here so that I can post the lashon of the Rambam, I’d appreciate it (1st time poster…) Thanks.)