Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Should we assume you’re in the NY area?
If so, buy a Yated and/or Hamodia; both had what to this out of towner seemed nice sections on this topic.
Moq: they were magidei shiur, rebbes, etc. not necessarily at the top at age 30.
Sacrilege: Yeah, good point. What’s really strange is the push not to have boys go to E”Y till marriage. Now that’s a plan! Send kids who’ve never been there, lived there, established a relationship with mashgichim, rebbeim, mentors. Sounds great to me. Now if a boy is really shteiging there and that particular yeshiva is where he will thrive if he continues, kol hakavod.
But we threw chanoch l’naar out with the bath water long ago…
I didn’t go to this seminary.
This may be true but this is the kind of thing that could lead to psychological disorder if obsessed about. Seriously. Track down the teacher who said this and have a heart to heart, you know, “Now that it’s nogeiah I’ve thought about this a lot and wonder if you could give me hadracha.” I think you need someone to bounce things off of IRL. Hatzlacha and may you be zoche to build your BNB soon, with the right one at the obviously right time.
SJS, true, but still requires mesirus nefesh, IMO, and again, what happens at 5 years with 3 1/2 kids?
And I’ve heard of boys who want to learn 7- 10 years and THEN figure out what they want to do when they grow up, they’re not Torah forever.
And Shan, define out of town.
I agree with the L”H potential but did want to add to your list: sems in Montreal, Toronto, and Detroit, all with dorms AFAIK.
SJS, you mention short term learning (for a few years).
This is part of the problem, IMO. If you look at many middle aged roshei yeshiva/maggidei shiur/even future moetzes members, you will find that many of them were only learning full time for about five years, then they took their first positions. Now out of town kollelim are full of families that came back from E”Y after a few years. Not my business how they’re making it but boy am I curious.
And kol hakovod to the girls who are getting the degrees and working hard. I should say that some families do need the girls to be somewhat independent – clothes, other expenses – due to their financial situations, and the girls may not be able to save as much as they’d like.
I just read a reprint of the Betty Friedan Good Housekeeping article that started it all, reprinted in honor of its 50th anniversary. My friends, they won!!! We’re not raising our girls to want to stay home. We’re raising them to feel guilty and inadequate if and when they want to stay home. Because these wonderful girls who have the degrees and are doing well may still find themselves reaching that point at some point sooner than they’d like. And unless the young men are getting good hadracha and have a real exit plan, they’ll still need major support while they’re in school or getting training. “Business” isn’t for everyone.
I’m tempted to just delete this all. There are no chiddushim here. (If anyone found anything I said to be a chiddush do let me know.)
Paschabchachma, which of them have good supervised dorms?
It’s a bit late to tell you to pace yourself, but if you still have a lot of cooking to do, go for as simple as possible: buy some nice rice or other carb mixes, make a few dressings you can use on different salads, buy or doctor bought desserts, etc.
Re laundry: I don’t know how much space you have but if you have a secure area that the kids won’t demolish, sort clean laundry, hang whatever will go on hangers anyway, and don’t obsess over what doesn’t get put away.
Re cleaning: there’s dirt, and there’s clutter. A lot of what you clean at this point will stay somewhat clean. You can’t help the clutter but you can live with it.
When the kids reach a certain age, they can make paper chains. My kids loved taking them out front and seeing how far down the block it stretched. And we used to buy new music for the crunch time when they got a bit older than that.
If you can afford to pay for a mother’s helper for a few hours, it will be really worth it. If you can’t and really need help, call the principal of a local BY and find out if there is anyone who can do chesed. Don’t fret about being a chesed case; one day your kids will help someone else, iy”H.
Have a wonderful, happy yom tov!
Heresy here, but there’s nothing wrong with his learning at night during shana rishona. He can even learn in your home if that makes you all feel better.
P.S. Mazal tov, and may your home be full of happiness and meaning!
WIY: It is not necessary for girls to come home for Pesach (or for parents to visit midyear).
And we need more dorm options for out of towners in the N. American seminaries.
Moq: good point. For the working poor who don’t qualify for a lot of grants an American sem can be quite expensive too. And there are a variety of grants that ONLY apply for E”Y, such as MASA (which has looser income guidelines), local Federations, and others. It will still be pricier but it cuts some of the costs. And the girls can keep it real too.
I’m not convinced that h.s. can give the girls all they need. In their later teens the girls need some good, unplugged discussions that aren’t appropriate in 12th grade, and that not all 12th grade teachers can handle. Also, considering that so many girls are going to be going for higher degrees, why not let them have some higher, more sophisticated and in depth learning?
Now, you NYers are saying absolutely! Let my girls start their programs and consistently take night sem classes. They’ll grow, maybe find some teachers with whom to build a kesher, etc. There are wonderful summer or short term E”Y programs that we can probably swing to give our daughter a meaningful E”Y experience.
But think beyond the Hudson. Out of town parents would love such options but will not send their daughters to live in an apt. at that point. WE NEED DORMS!!!
Please people, before commenting, maybe you want to say, this will only apply to NY.
Mdd, yes, there are limits; check them out. You can start with the famous story Rabbi Pliskin relates of the worker whose boss wouldn’t pay him.
Judging someone is rarely an obligation. Most times, we can interact with people and not judge them. Rare is the occasion when it is not meritorious to judge them l’kaf zechus. A BY girl who is wearing a short skirt does not fall under that category. You approach the person in his or her totality – the bein adam lachavero, the davening (trust me, these girls can and do daven quite seriously) and much more that you don’t have a clue about from a casual interaction. Hold on to the good thoughts.
Just a thought this erev Yom Kippur, from someone who’s going to be judged…
Hatzlacha! May you find the right one at the obviously right time, and build a BNB together.
There is a plethora of books out there, just check the major Judaica houses and you’re bound to find one that resonates; I’m sure people here will share their faves.
But don’t discount the positive effect of a good ongoing relationship with a mentor – family rav/rebbetzin, mashgiach or other teacher from yeshiva or sem (not sure which you went to), etc. This kind of relationship is essential.
Re the notarabbi quote: never fear, I have no problems with not being able to learn gemara. I would suggest that if someone quotes something like this, it be crystal clear that this is pashut pshat, and something for us to take with us l’maaseh. I happen to have what is probably a very basic question: But she was behind the fence! And who was the father of this boy?
I don’t need answers, just saying that it’s dangerous to throw stuff like that into discussions such as these.
And was it notI who said that someone was asking about shidduchim and out of town girls wears pleated skirts, in town wear straight?
Wow, just when I thought I heard it all….
To WIY, on why can’t women have a uniform: because they’re wired differently?
But maybe I’m wrong. I suggest your wife spend a year dressing in the “Tznius Cultural Revolution” style (an adaptation of that chic Chinese trend of a generation ago). Forget about how happy she would be. How bout you? And no, discontent on your part wouldn’t indicate some moral failing either.
Hashem did not intend for b’nos Yisrael to wear burkas, or the equivalent.
SJS, wearing a baby is great (though some people may automatically assume you’re the “crunchy” sort)(not that there’s anything wrong with that) but as far as shopping goes, if you’re living in a car oriented society, it’s a mechaya to be able to take the car seat out and put it, with sleeping baby, straight into the wagon.
Yup, Mybat, just like all feminists are ugly. Uh huh….
To BP Totty: in most works of fiction, whether written, on screen (think soap operas) etc. you won’t have random wrong numbers. There’s only so much time and space, so everything tends to be wrought with meaning and contribute to the plot.
Please don’t blame uniforms for this. They are a G-dsend! I am so happy not to have to deal with a full school wardrobe. There is no way I could afford it. The girls still have plenty of opportunities to make good tznius decisions.
To Mosherose: I’m hesitant to ask this because there are all sorts of people here. But right away I thought of Rav Yaakov, zt”l, who greeted the nuns, Rav Moshe, zt”l, the famous story of the schochet in a large slaughter house who was rescued from a deep freeze only because he greeted the guard coming and going….Can you tell us where common courtesy for others created b’tzelem Elokim crosses the line to lo sichonem? At the very least, if it is considered common courtesy in this culture to say thank you, shouldn’t we Yehudim get the practice we need on everyone, not just unzere mentschen?
Thanks Moq, I needed that.
Blinky, HashemLovesMe, the problem with the four inch rule is that as important is the sitting down in the dressing room test, which many people don’t bother with. So simple though.
Ramateshkolian, on one hand, I’m a big MYOB person. I’m just thrilled to see people enthusiastic about Yiddishkeit. I see it like my grandparents did a century ago – if you’re shomer Shabbos and have a bren for Yiddishkeit, that’s a major victory.
BUT BUT BUT I do want my daughters to cover their knees, and feel uncomfortable when they don’t. But when they see so many, and certain in particular, people not able to sit down with their knees covered, it wears them down and erodes the sensitivity. That said, this is not the battle I spend energy on outside of my own daled amos.
I guess the original post was edited to remove the vaccine references because otherwise it’s a strange tangent. Since we’re on it, I don’t have issues with immunizations though do wish they would do a more staggered schedule. It seems like some of the overloading done is a LOT for a developing immune system. Not touching the autism connection, just saying.
To YehudaF: While I hear the other side, gotta say, that was good. Thanks.
A lot of the schools that offer it go through community colleges which defrays the cost. What about your school?
And for anyone who can’t or didn’t do it, don’t kick yourself too much; not all schools will ultimately accept all these credits, cleps, etc. Check it out carefully.
Wasn’t the book called Switched Identity, not Identities?
Smart Cookie, my point was, that while the shells are form fitting (the main function seems to be not be wearing baggy sleeves) the overlay is loose enough that I don’t see it as a tznius issue. It’s not just there are greater issues, but this is one that isn’t an issue. To me, it’s not the style per se, it’s the particular top one chooses to wear.
And yes, by and large the only older women I see wearing them are the slimmer women, who tend to dress trendier, but again they lok fine too.
Most of the kids (or slimmer older women) wearing the shell under sleevelss/cap sleeve top look fine. The outer level is usually a looser T shirt material.
I would post this recipe but I think there are copyright issues with sharing published recipes with large groups. So I’ll steer you to one of Levana Kirschenbaum’s cookbooks – available at public libraries – and a marvelous choc. chip cookie with oil. Just take out promptly when done. YMMV but with my oven it’s exactly 8 minutes.
Since we’re reprising/rehashing -l’toeles harabim, of course – I’ll so a brief best of myself and then ask a question.
First, Midwest2, good that you (and others) have brought up other factors. Let’s say that the age gap is the major issue. It’s a significant chunk of the pie to the shidduch crisis, let’s say a 40% factor. There is still 60% of other factors to consider and work on with as much energy and passion, IMO. There’s the chanoch l’naar issue, there’s the support issue, there’s all the other mishegos, there’s a lot to work with but since AZ is making the rules, I guess we can’t discuss it here. But we ignore it at our peril.
Now for the question. Say there’s a 23/24 y.o. guy and you know a girl for him who is simply perfect, absolutely what he needs and is looking for but she’s 3 or more years younger. Do we not suggest the shidduch? Ask the boy to wait till she’s 22? Does the rosh yeshiva decline to be mesader kiddushin, because if we’re not working on the solution we’re part of the problem? Should we feel guilty? I just know of a few great shidduchim wherein the girls are younger, and not within AZ’s guidelines to heal the demographics crisis.
I read the original letter BP Totty refers to and think that DK summed it up well this past week. Hatzlacha to the family.
BUT it seemed apparent that these people did have options. For an out of towner, who has no sem in town or only one that is clearly not for her, and whose parents want her to go to sem with a good chevra, there may not be options. To send a young girl to an apartment in NY without supervision for a vocational program and night sem just won’t work. We need more good dorm sems in the US because it’s not so simple not just to buck the trend, but to do so with certain kids. But the shidduch problems from not going to sem seem overrated. My friends haven’t run into that.
As far as boys and their “year” – if I was sending a son davka for a year straight from high school I would only send to one of the yeshivos that have well supervised full service (i.e. meals) dorms. They’re out there. Personally, if my boys go, it will be at the time that is right for them, and their growth. Interestingly, their rosh yeshiva is not for boys going so young.
For parents who want their boys to have an early, solid Israel experience, I saw ads for an Elul-Tishrei yeshiva under phenomenal hanhala. Maybe this trend will expand, so boys can get a taste of E”Y now that it’s fairly accessible, assess their options, and get back to learn in chu”l if that’s where they’ll really flourish.
Is this a matter of hardship, whining, or what?
Seems to me that if not the first, you’re setting yourself up for some difficulties later; kids might get resentful and not appreciative of whatever beautiful mehalech you’ve chosen for yourself or are carrying on.
Ramateshkol’s on target.
I hate labeling and pigeon holing, but chances are the girls who are interested in boys who aren’t in full time learning want someone who has a clear idea of what he wants to do. OTOH, if you have a reputation as being consistent, smart, and a mensch, who does plan to finish school, then you shouldn’t have a problem. (Hey, going back to Musical Chairs, boys don’t have problems, right?)
And yes, people do reinvent themselves, go for advanced degrees or change direction in midlife (or close to it) but many of the people I know who did that did have some degrees and solid experience in their fields already.
And I’m all for having a plan, I think it’s good for all boys. Nothing needs to be etched in stone, just some good hard thinking and self knowledge. Check out Rabbi Horowitz’s article The Plan and Mr. Irwin Benjamin’s on the same (it was in Hamodia, probably googleable.)
(You have to be middle aged for this one.) How to decrease the number of participants – Carousel for the older boys?
Shavuos piyut it may be, but the first few lines were popularized by Yiddle Werdiger (who has a good voice and often fantastic arrangements). The lyrics are probably in the liner notes.
Welcome, minyan gal. I think it is important – crucial – to be able to maximally involve people in all aspects of Jewish practice, not just shul attendance, but as shul is the center of Jewish life, you pose some good food for thought.
If you have access to a Judaica store/library, you’ll enjoy reading the biography of Rav Avraham Pam, ob”m, whose 9th yahrtzeit was this week. He had a very close and beautiful relationship with a young boy with Down syndrome and his family, and the book goes into this in depth.
I don’t get the title of the thread. New roshei taivos would mean letters other than aleph, lamed, vav, lamed.
Thanks for posting this!
To anyone who’s wondering, it’s totally legit, there are many perakim open so you can take one you already know by heart.
Tizku l’mitzvos!
Bear in mind that you have a limited amount of weight, if you’re the attendee probably less than your older sister did. And while you may count on sending stuff with people coming in for yom tov, bear in mind that your parents will want you to come home with any clothes in good condition, unless you’re B”H in a position to be able to leave things behind.
Keep it real. You will/should seldom feel underdressed (I mean re style, not tznius) in E”Y which is part of its beauty.
Hatzlacha!
Re the Rav and TV: a lot of people of that era had a TV for the news and sports, v’zehu. I would say that the advertising wasn’t so bad then but TV was already heading towards cesspoolville then. Still, it was a simpler time. I would bet that most people who had TVs back in the day would not have them now if they were raising their kids.
Msseeker, B”H for those sites that DON’T breed cynicism. Three cheers and all that.
(If anyone knows what they are, please let me know.)
I don’t know where you’re coming from. Baltimore is out of town but a lot bigger than it used to be.
philosopher: I wasn’t necessarily referring to this thread.
mbachur: Honestly, I don’t for the most part have issues with mixed discussion on line. Just seems weird to do it on certain sites. I don’t know if I can say it better than aries just did.
Aries: BINGO!
It’s why I’ve been trying to limit my time on CR and you know some of these threads that should clearly be women only? I don’t even go there.
And I’ve commented before about sanctimony on the internet. I can only assume that some people feel that there is a higher good in their being here to be able to set people straight. Otherwise I can’t imagine how they got a heter.
Hashem’sprincess, is this for personal use or a possible book? If the latter, then let people know so they can give you sources; you’ll need to track them down for permission, copyright purposes, etc..
I’m not clear either. Are they spending the entire 3 hours walking up and down the same block, e.g. an avenue, or near the yeshiva dorm?
There’s a famous story told about a rebbe who came to collect from a gevir and found him eating dark bread and herring. He told the gevir off. As much as the gevir wanted to stay humble and reduce his gashmiyus, the rebbe said that if this is what he’s used to eating, when a truly hungry man would come, he would give him that, or even less. Better that he eat good meats and foods according to his means, so he would be more generous to others.
Missme, men do continue learning after leaving kollel. They just learn from 5 – 9. And some of them go on to become great talmidei chachamim, magidei shiurim (daf yomi and beyond, and daf yomi to a pretty demanding crowd at that).
And I know professionals who made some amazing decisions to be able to get a consistent amount of daily quality learning in.
It’s not either or. It would be refreshing if the message got out.
Missme, our out of town school (that has both boys’ and girls’ divisions) has a discount of a few hundred per additional child. Not complaining, but that’s about it. Everyone’s entitled to that discount. Then comes the tuition assistance question.
Re my last post and mentioning sheifa and love of Torah: should have been that that’s exactly what I did mean. I wasn’t referring to average re ability to learn.
And sms007: I don’t know what it’s like now but it can take a long time to qualify for some programs, and there might be extra help needed while on mailing lists.
Dr. Hall: you say that there are a lot of 20ish kids who shouldn’t be in school yet, and make the case for going to school when older. How practical is that? A lot of kids these days ARE deferring school, for when they’re married with a few kids, etc. The logistics can get pretty hairy.
Kvod hatorah: you might be right in that case, but parents not only have a right to their opinions, they may be abdicating their responsibilities if they don’t voice them. They, better than anyone, may know their kids, may know which ones can juggle, which can’t, what their thresholds are, who’s going to be around to pick up the pieces if the kids bite off more they can chew, etc.
To Myfriend: I should have clarified, expecting to learn on someone else’s dime.
And by average or below average, I wasn’t referring to their sheifa to learn and love of Torah, I meant average in other arenas.
I think we have to raise our boys with a mindset that they’re not learning for 2 years, or 3 or 5 or more, but they’ll be learning for life, and filling the 5 – 9 time meaningfully.