tzippi

WIY, you go to work to earn money, honestly. As long as the rules are legal, you don’t have to agree with them. OTOH, when we choose to send our children to a school, we are entering into a partnership in being mechanech our children. It is clear that schools will often have stricter rules than the house does. Many BYs will limit the makeup girls are allowed to wear in school, not necessarily because they feel there’s something wrong with a 17 year old girl wearing even a subtle color of nail polish, but because it is too distracting and disturbing to force the girls to show their hands everyday, or otherwise start policing.

Without going into particular feelings of the situation that seems to be a springboard for this discussion, I just wanted to point out that one can’t so quickly extrapolate from the work place to school, or vice versa.

MO is an acronym for Modern Orthodox.

And about law school vs. OT or PT (which now requires a PhD IIRC): while the former is more vigorous the latter still takes some serious smarts and commitment and results in the kind of over-education the OP referred to.

And about women learning, gemara or otherwise: There are many serious learned women in the BY world, and I don’t mean gemara. They have the kind of curriculum that used to be offered the boys in terms of well-rounded nach knowledge, as well halacha l’maaseh, hashkafa, and history; and the ability to learn sifrei hashkafa inside if they’re so inclined. And, many women now are fairly committed to continued learning, formally, in classes, and on line or on the phone. Again, even without gemara, resulting in very educated young women, which could be intimidating.

I would think there’s a difference between eating leftovers, and making enough of food that you only have on Shabbos to be able to serve for melave malka as well.

And Telegrok, why not be an eishes chayil and surprise your husband this week – and have it ready for Shabbos 😉 (Yeah, easy for me to say 😉

Are you only applying to one sem?

Any alumnae from your school, camp, etc. you can also talk to? Not that you won’t get good input here, but I hope you also speak to someone who knows YOU.

They’re both fine schools. Seminar is a bit more academic. CL seems a bit “realer” to me.

I don’t know about the 3 meals a day, I think you’re own for breakfast at CL, but otherwise you’ll get everything else on your list at CL.

(Disclaimer: I write this as a parent having shepherded kids through sem. Great experience with CL but not as recent as you want.)

To Charlie Hall: bowling alleys I’ve been at all have balls 10 lbs. and under.

To SZ: Right now you have the zechus of reading something typed by a woman not presently bowling. How many mitzvos do I have for every second not spent bowling?

Avram, a few years ago I heard Warren Kozak (author of The Rabbi of 84th St.) speak. He said that the frum women he met were funny, strong, and ruling the world, that the Orthodox were doing a lot to reach out and the non-Orthodox needed to do more work in positive interaction to counteract perpetuated stereotypes and misinformation.

PY, you’re not defining OTD the same way most people do. What happened was, at some point someone made the decision to go OTD, due to many factors, such as weak education, crushing financial pressures, allure of the outside world, etc. and all sorts of permutations of these factors. You can’t really call the mass number of Jews today anything but tinokos shenishbu.

I’m not endorsing this, but crdle (cradle? curdle? craindle?), do you know what they’re getting?

And avoiding commercials and trailers for other shows these days is no kleinikeit.

The first 2/3 of The Gordian Knot showed exceptional potential.

Good news! I haven’t read enough of all the writers you mention but there are several frum Judaica writers who are definitely better than Grisham.

Bombmaniac, you’re totally leaving out frum chick lit, the four friends books. (Always four friends, maybe symbolizing the four directions people head in.)

There are some good writers. Meir Uri Gottesman, M. Bassra (Sun Inside Rain), and if you can handle the early translations, Marcus Lehman, for starters.

There are some good books out there too, like Dual Discovery, The Stars Will Guide You (an early teen book, great reading), Shortchanged (and anything by that author) and more.

Yes, it’s likely you’re going to come across some less than excellent writing, not to mention not enough to keep you busy, so you may want to augment your reading with secular stuff, but come on, unless you’re some intellectual you’ll have your own guilty pleasures from the public library, may as well get in some Judaica while reading too.

And maybe, just maybe, someone out there will be moved to build a better literary mousetrap. We’re waiting.

Amichai: Yeah, like the internet.

Minyangal: you have a point. Chanoch l’naar al pi darko has fallen by the wayside, but it’s kind of like the guns and people debate. It’s not the inevitable result of Orthodox Judaism as much a by product of our being influenced by the air we breathe and broader culture. Right now, the broader culture is the most superficial in history. (I can even picture the angels scratching their heads as they try to figure us out so they can defend us properly.) What’s filtered down is an emphasis on the superficial and the type of conformity you see.

There are a LOT of things one can do for a living if s/he’s willing to think outside the box and if her/his parents are supportive and do good parenting. And something that’s been ingrained in me is that phrase, for a living. Nothing wrong with finding meaning and pleasure in your 9 – 5 day, and opportunity to make a kiddush Hashem and the name of Hashem beloved in one’s professional life. But we don’t do ourselves any service by defining ourselves by our professions. As people, and Jews, we are so much more than that.

And what’s up with the dark suit three times a day? Let’s parse that.

One doesn’t HAVE to wear a dark suit to daven. The idea is to stand before the King “kempt”, vs. unkempt.

And three times a day… you got a problem with that?

Let’s flip it around. Say a young Orthodox woman would say, you know, I’m moved to daven three times a day and I want to organize my day to be able to go to a minyan to be able to say all the extra ameins, yehei shemei rabbas, etc. You wouldn’t stand up for her rights to actualize herself?

Maybe the sense of self was implicit.

Take v’ahavta l’reaicha kamocha. You can’t love another person unless you love yourself.

Rav Hirsch in Pirkei Avos, 5:13 (4 types of people, one who says what’s yours is mine, etc.) says that one can’t give unless one owns the object to begin with. There has to be a sense of ownership, discreteness in Jewish life.

Then again, as Rebbetzin Heller says, our bubbes didn’t stand by the river doing the laundry asking each other if they were self-actualized (and you can read Zalman’s Menorah to see just how hard life was for the whole typical family). We were too busy trying to survive! But there were other periods of plenty and discretionary time before ours. Maybe there are some writings from those tekufos to cull from.

If your school’s not helpful in giving guidance, think about where girls like you, with your goals, have gone the past few years. Start networking. The flavor of some sems change from year to year.

Now I assume you’re looking for E”Y, so I’ll get some chu”l options out of the way. They are very worthwhile if you’re thinking chu”l too: Detroit, Manchester, the “other” Gateshead sem, Montreal. I don’t know about NY options like the new one in Far Rockaway under Mrs. Feiner and other.

Off the top of my head, here are some Israeli sems: Chcohmas Lev, Peninim, Shoshanim, the half year sems (wonderful people affiliated with the sems, from the ads, probably more hashkafa oriented and concentrated)

BTW, if your grades are consistent (I mean you don’t roller coast but do the best you can on a regular basis) and you’re good and sincere, you should be able to find a sem. Hope you find good advice, advisors, etc.

msseeker, maybe I can spare our OP the trouble, but you’re mixing apples and oranges. Someone who’s always been on the straight and narrow just may not get on with someone who’s needed some breathing room, or done whatever. I don’t see any consistency. Now as time goes on in shidduchim, sometimes people need to think outside the box and be receptive to some things they weren’t. I don’t think it’s time yet…

Actually, ,it was more my concern. Knowing that someone’s had certain experiences, not first with you, could be disconcerting.

And by stuff that could come back to bite, take needles, e.g.

It sounds like you are making excellent hishtadlus. There’s something going on that is clearly indicative that we are in ikvesa d’Mishicha and that is all the good girls like you out there, in front of whose houses you’d expect to see lines of boys in a normal world. Hatzlacha!

Many BTs know hilchos kashrus and other basic halachos much better than FFBs as they had to learn it systematically, whereas the schools the FFBs went to assumed the kids would learn it through osmosis.

Many BTs come from lovely families, warm people who would make lovely machutanim and grandparents.

HOWEVER, you may want to listen to a tape series from Rabbi Braun of Ohr Sameach on shidduchim. He asserts that for many BTs, depending on their background, a typical FFB might not be best for them. Not that they need to look for someone with the identical issues they’re facing, but they may do best with someone who him/herself has had some transformative experience, etc., a little more depth if you will. (This may also apply to kids who went OTD for a while, or “took a little detour”, IMO; but note the word “may”.)

I will confess, as a parent, one concern is if a BT had “experience”. My kid might not (again, might) be able to handle going into a relationship with someone who’s had such experience. And people might also be concerned that you might have done some experimenting, even mild, that could come back to bite you. I don’t know who you’re dealing with as far as mentors, shadchanim, references, but you want to make sure you have a handler who can discreetly and skillfully answer any questions the other side may have. You still have a right to privacy, no one is entitled to know every detail of your life, but they do have a right to be sure you’re safe and to know some general history. (And this also applies to FFBs who’ve been out of the system for a time and come back.)

What kind of IRL mentoring and support are you getting?

Hope none of this was offensive, and all was helpful. Hatzlacha! I don’t have anyone in the parsha at the moment but I’d be proud to call you niece 😉

Minyangal, the difference is that your rabbi will not consider them fully shomer Shabbos.

Not sure if my post went through, sorry.

Cyncical, you say that you “have very little problem saying that someone who drives to shul is still Shomer Shabbos.” Do you understand why to many them’s still fightin words, as it still falls under the rubric of melacha (Dayan Grunfeld’s magnificent short work, The Sabbath, is likely not as popular as Heschel’s but important to read.) and as such should be reserved for circumstances of pikuach nefesh? Also, you may just type fast so it’s easy for you to dash off all those “I think”s or “I don’t think”s. For most of us, it’s not up to debate or our consciences.

And to those who indict the leaders: sometime ago I read an article by a reform rabbi who became fully observant. While IN THE RABBINATE he had never heard of the concept of carrying on Shabbos. There are not many left who have any serious level of scholarship, and of those who do, the hashkafa gap is profound.

The joint Bet medrash idea won’t work if we can’t approach the text with some basic shared fundamental premises. AND, back to an original question of mine: are the laity prepped enough with basic general knowledge and skills for it to be a mutual give and take? Because if not, and it’s a matter of the more learned teaching the other, there are already programs in place. I know of a Partners in Torah program that regularly has dozens and dozens of pairs learning together, and PiT isn’t the only such program.

As for the baseball, I’m all for it. My kids have done that already 😉 (It’s publicized in the local Orthodox community but I don’t believe anyone’s been turned away.)

SJS, if you start earning 100k early enough, it may be enough. But not necessarily.

Haven’t read the posts here but how in the world is this thread at all muttar? If anyone can offer support from the Chofetz Chaim or any of the popularized forms of the original sefer please share, l’toeles harabbim.

Hey Cynical, my hand’s still raised! 😉

I will accept that there is a segment of Conservative clergy and laity committed to Jewish observance and learning. Regrettably, this is not as widespread as you may like. In fact, here in my out of town community, there’s a lot of blurring of the lines between Conservative and Reform, in youth groups, shared services, etc.

Here’s also something for you to comment on, if you could:

Many if not most non-Orthodox Jews are such because their (great)grandparents succumbed and stopped observing Shabbos. (And it is clear that it is impossible for us to judge them. There was widespread Jewish illiteracy, starvation, missionizing and much more that we can’t imagine.) These grandchildren now are conservative, reform, reconstructionist, etc. if still identifying Jewishly.

(There is a population, probably boomer-age, who may have abandoned Orthodoxy, probably in college, probably because they didn’t have the strongest Jewish identity or had very uninspired and uninspiring teachers.)

But AFAI can tell, this is where the non-Orthodox population comes from, not from any contemporary mass movement from the Orthodox.

I see middle aged people whose parents were traditional and Conservative, they themselves will not mix meat and dairy and will only buy kosher meat, but their kids aren’t continuing. I’ll bet you see this all the time; I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. How can people maintain their own level of non-Orthodox and observance and see it carry over? Does it require a level of exclusivity, not eating in other people’s homes, etc.? You’re right, I don’t have too much interaction with non-Orthodox people, and I’m intrigued by the nuts and bolts of life.

I could go on but I have to get ready for Shabbos myself. Gut Shabbos.

Thanks, notI, and my apologies to yechezkel and others. I was referring to kids today, not the married working men. In fact, my husband and others in the family and community have done such a good job of exemplifying the working ben Torah that my kids do see it as a viable option. It is still not so easy to find these boys, shidduchim-wise.

To Ronsr:

I assume the coupons were good for seventy five cents each, so in effect you were buying $15.00 worth of coupons for $6.

Not every store doubles over $1.

Not every store that does accepts internet coupons.

I just read a couponing book and signed up on CouponMom’s website. I have yet to come across coupons for the products I buy And no, I’m not a brand snob but it’s the cheapest decent detergent; with coupons and what not the other brands are not likely to be cheaper as sales are less frequent.

Which actually brings me to a good tip: buy generic. The world will not come to an end if you buy the store brand mayo at 1.99 . With time you’ll know which kinds of things are fine in the knockoff version (we still splurge on Pledge furniture polish, vs. the dollar store’s, but maybe that’s us), etc.

“WIY: that’s reality”

Not necessarily.

I think that every choson shmuz should end with the boys being given some required reading, a copy of “Johnny Lingo’s Eight Cow Wife.”