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So right, I agree that kollel, at least for starting out, is great for everyone. But on whose cheshbon?
Tikvuchka, if there’s an airplane ticket or car rental involved…well, I’d have to really, really trust the shadchan. And most shadchanim don’t do the legwork the parents or parties in question do.
Aishes Chayil, doesn’t the gemara talk about a mamzer who’s a talmid chacham?
And Hamodia had an article about chess this week for just this reason.
Some years ago when one of our favorite summer library circuit magicians was starting out, part of his routine was showing how a few simple tricks were done and sending home props.
So now we know it’s all illusion and sleight of hand requiring lots of practice.
Nfgo, no time to really read these posts but davening through them, I see that I was guilty of misusing the word megillah.
IOW, I get your point.
(And this time, I was employing irony.)
I’ve heard that if things went well but there’s a feature that’s off-putting (say a boy’s unibrow, some girls notice, nothing to be done) to keep going out. If the issue fades away, there might be potential. If it’s still an issue, that’s a siman to stop.
I don’t know of it in Litvishe circles. Seems very very alien to me. But since there’s a mesorah, if it’s clearly your mesorah, fine.
Presumably, if a teacher’s on the reference list there might still be a kesher, or a personal kesher to the family. Ask the teacher if her information is old or current. Ask the teacher for names of friends.
And find some IRL people – older friends who’ve been through this, a friendly rebbetzin – for concrete hadracha on how to do background checks.
And when you need a good laugh, track down the CSI:Shidduchim video.
Sorry, I’m bilingual; I was using “scheme” as the English do.
Ofcourse, do you have any suggestions or ideas? (By the way, you must mean something like see more marriages in the klal because every time a boy gets married, so does a girl.)
AZ, I’ll tell you what it has to do with the OP’s question: the numbers being floated around.
There are some people who support minimally if at all and don’t plan to do more till they pay full tuition. I see how this scheme could really add up for the individual.
But of course, this isn’t the individual paying. This is some murky community funded project. But what if it becomes accepted across the board?
The reconditioning has started. I’m editing myself. Being an akeres habayis is not a goal that the girls are being given permission to have. The rhetoric to have them date later is to ease the demographics problem and give them time to pursue their degrees (please note, I have no issue with this) to make them more appealing as kollel wives (to boys who don’t have a clue as to an exit plan). The mind can’t hold two opposing thoughts.
Many boys are quite happy with girls who have a parnasa. The reconditioning we need to have for the boys is in the area of how they can beoome more substantial and appealing to the highly qualified girls. Not because they’re modehrnish working women but because we have created this great gap. I think that sincere, temimusdik boys who don’t have a clue about dress sizes (and mothers who would be looking for the best girl for their son) would be quite appealing to these girls. But they’re going the way of the dinosaur.
Ok, so keep it simple: Please consider pardoning, clemency, whatever the nusach is as he’s served ample time for the charges.
To anyone who is ambivalent about these public efforts for various people in prison who all did do something, even if not what they were charged for: don’t send in your money. Don’t make the phone calls. But do have them in mind when you daven, if not during Matir Asurim then that Hashem should see fit to deal with them in a way that is perfect justice that we can be mekabel.
“And it’s something that many R”Y would like to see changed for numerous reasons” (AZ)
Evidently there are also many who wouldn’t. I know of a R”Y who likes his boys to stay in his beis medrash as long as they’re growing. (Most will go on to E”Y.) If that means till they’re 22, and they stay in E”Y long enough to be learning well and form good relationships, not coming home at an arbitrary cut off date… Well, I don’t see total compliance.
BEST IMA, my guess is that most of her names are of the same class. Which is fine, just saying.
OK, present concrete actions to take, links to reliable petitions, etc. I’ll start.
Daven for Yohonosan ben Malka. Have him and all others falsely and unfairly imprisoned in mind next time you say the words Matir Assurim. (Coming up this mincha.)
Actually, AZ, for all I know they are doing it. Maybe the community shadchan reports to the sponsors.
Which means that there are a lot of other shadchanim, amateur or otherwise, who are not being similar compensated.
Aries, I read you. I should have rephrased that: for those who have Mr. Aries’ concern, you might want to find out if this will be the first post-divorce chasuna, and if not, how the other(s) played out.
Amichai, I assume you’re thinking of shachanus after they get engaged.
Oh well. I guess those who need to know, know. When the community was made aware by a letter that we had a shadchan on retainer, no mention was made of a 2 date/4 date payment policy. So I guess it’s not us.
AZ, which communities would this be?
Apy, it means reconditioning the girls. I don’t like where it’s going.
Nfgo3, are those all the choices? What about, say working boys?
Thanks, eclipse.
I think she’ll make a laughingstock of the GOP is she tries to run.
No wait. I’m wrong. Let her run, and have Newt Gingrich as her running mate.
SZ: good catch. I don’t know how I missed that one. I wonder if that’s the word he meant.
Thanks, lkwdfellow. So this is not necessarily connected to age. A boy might be ready earlier, but possibly later. Just as a girl might be ready later, but possibly earlier. If we don’t respect the individual, then we enter the murky stage of social engineering, which gets me nervous short of such proposals coming very clearly from gedolim, and not in vague terms but outright, with specific guidelines.
If young women are getting turned off there’s something wrong with other things. I propose working on those at the same time as stepping up the efforts in shidduchim.
msseeker, in your list of things girls will have to give up you forgot the internet.
lkwdfellow, can you describe the typical 22-23 y.o. who is currently mature enough to get married? What are the criteria that determine when a boy is ready to defrost?
There’s learning for x number of years, and there’s learning for life. I think we all hope our boys and men learn for life, even if they have to do something else from nine to five.
AZ, I will reread the posts after I get straight answers to simple questions.
Is this a community tax of some sort or individuals paying?
Do you think that either or both of the scenarios are possible:
– fewer third dates because the parties are apprehensive (and the girls would rather save the money that they are apparently raking in for their life in kollel)?
– more third dates due to if not unscrupulous shadchanim shadchanim who now have negios due to this radical proposal?
Each side pays 75?
And a new one: the real estate analogy is an interesting one. (And nimshal to the luxury realtors are those who go for 10K.) Is that the sole basis for the arbitrary numbers of 150, etc? Because there is a world outside certain big cities that can’t relate to that.
Smartcookie, they’re not just into chemistry, they’re also into mathematics.
AZ, I’m confused. Is this a community tax, or the individual paying? Because I don’t know how your basement mint works but for the rest of us, 150 here, 150 there and soon we’re talking real money.
And I’m with GAW: you’ll have a lot of people considering that third date.
And I forget, do both the boy and girl have to pay for the third date?
Last of all: ECSTATIC!
Ah, thanks Sac. I should have thought, he’s dealing with a market where houses go for 600K. No one in my community has a house anywhere near that. That’s why the analogy didn’t work for me.
Another suggestion, that I was just this side of suggesting, is the Carousel.
AZ, I live out of town. I wonder where YOU live where a realtor gets 30k for a sale.
lkwdfellow, there are those who would flip what you write and solve the problem by having the girls start dating at 22-23 too. I don’t like where that’s coming from. Somehow, we have to be able to maintain a level of Torah, and an educated Torahdik laity, while impressing on our girls that their greatest satisfaction and accomplishment will come from managing their homes, even if it means not being able to be the financial support of the Torah in their lives.
TheChevra, what aspect appeals? The type of investigations they make? Meeting in advance? Bshows? I have no quarrel with that.
What I am concerned about is pushing our boys to marry young, or at least younger than they might have considered. This will necessitate even more support, for starters. Unless there is a concurrent effort to make our young men more resourceful and prepared for the responsibilities that could become theirs fully at the turn of a dime, won’t work. Not in anyone’s best interests.
AZ, I was going to reserve judgment till my Yated came in the mail and I got to read this.
How often do realtors get 30K on a deal? Especially on houses worth 60K?
I do not like the idea of institutionalizing paying shadchanim after dates 2 and 4. There is way too much room for abuse and negios on the parts of the shadchan.
What could work – and I know of one community reaping the peiros – is for a COMMUNITY to hire a shadchan to work on its behalf. Of course shidduchim in the community will still come from other sources – Hashem works in amazing ways – but this is an idea that has worked, and maintains integrity for all.
B”H, all of the shadchanim I’ve dealt with, including a few pros, were nothing less than cordial and menschlich, even without greasing the palms. Maybe it had to do with other compensation, like sincerity and respect on our part.
A megillah about the former nominee could be called a Palindrone.
You can add some extra potatoes.
It won’t taste the same.
No one ever died from cholent leftovers (if anyone knows someone who knows someone who did, this is extremely uncommon).
Brace yourself though; some people will attack your culinary skills if you could even have leftover chulent. What perakim would you like me to say for you?
Stamagoy, I assume he’s gotten serious medical testing?
No, but I do have a computer.
Maybe you want to also ask what kind of filters people have to get a more complete profile?
You need to find out about the divorce, make sure there’s not abuse or triangulation (yes, I know, “intact” families can be just as dysfunctional if not more) and see how the kids deal with the parents now. There will always be a rough adjustment time but if the parents worked in the kids’ best interests, if they are decent people, and the kid has minimal if any baggage (carry-on accepted, unresolved baggage is not, ever), go for it.
If the situation is more complex, but the kid checks out wonderfully, you have to ask yourself if the kids are up to managing this. If they’re very young, it might be too much considering all the stress marriage entails during the adjustment period. In which case you might want to tell the shadchan it might be the right one but not the right time.
And aries, if this isn’t the first post-divorce chasuna what about finding out how the other chasunas went. I have been at a number of such chasunas and they went off well. And I don’t know how often people are actually dealing with two sets of machutanim.
Why is this any skin off of your nose?
To An idea: Does your school have a sem night? Do you know anyone currently in the schools you can talk to?
It does get tougher to lose and keep off weight but it is doable.
Ask your doctor, or check out your libary.
If you’re eating well and exercising, go to sleep knowing you’re doing your best.
Why did the frum Jew cross the road?
He couldn’t; it was Shabbos.
Peninim has so much to offer – the best teachers around, vocational training, but it’s NOT for a girl who would also be considering Nachlas.