tzippi

re lesschumras:

About Yitzchok, Yaakov, and the Imahos: you may notice I didn’t mention anything about the family, so I wouldn’t necessarily have eliminated them. (I will say, from my experience so far, that a really nice family is not a chisaron.)

And Avraham and Moshe Rabeinu – I would have asked why they (or their parents) made the decisions they did, true. And presumably the shadchan would have told me that they came a long way from where they started out. I for one would have been impressed and intrigued enough to pursue it. But anyway, a lot of people would have dropped A”A off their lists because he was a working boy; I wouldn’t, depending on the daughter in question.

re less chumras: I think that there are many thinking, mature 20 year olds who can make this decision, especially after fine tuning things based on 2 years of dating.

re oomis: The shadchan’s presence, at least the first few times they go out, is a bracha. It helps the kids maintain their dignity and confidence. Prolonged phone conversations, especially before they meet, can be detrimental. Remember, these are young people who do not have a lot of contact with the opposite sex outside family and maybe close family friends. Even after the first few dates, it’s good for both kids to reserve the right to say, let’s go through the shadchan. Not to get out of saying no, but to say, I need more time to think and I can’t ask you out/say yes right away.

You may feel our kids are too sheltered, and it is your right to raise your children otherwise if you’ve made informed decisions to do so. But B”H my personal experience has been that the sheltering we’ve experienced, and done ourselves, so far works to raise bnei and bnos Yisrael who can funtion in the world. Maybe we’ve given them enough exposure to the world, if not the opposite sexes, to segue into the new stages of interaction when they come up.

About the vetting: yeah, it can get absurd. And there are things people don’t always find out. But before I would let kids meet I would want clear data – where the boy/girl went to school, age, etc. And I would, depending on the data, want to know why the chinuch decisions, changes at whatever stage, etc. were made, if the young man/girl is responsible, personable, and a mentsch. And you need references for that – the shadchan doesn’t have all the info.

I think that the framework we have, if used properly, is really, really good.

Shoshana Miriam, do you think you would have different (read: fewer) options if your parents weren’t able to help? There are parents who just have to say no and believe me, they have as much chashivus haTorah as yours do. Some may be in that position from their own, unsupported kollel years, BTW.

Teenager, that’s really sad. Especially since many baalei and baalos teshuva are much better versed in halacha than I am – my Bais Yaakov expected us to learn through osmosis. The way it should be true, but not good enough.

I understand BT’s may not have a mesora for many minhagim and nuances, but that teacher was simply incorrect.

Don’t touch those tichels! I forgot – one can always wear a do-rag or some other lining underneath.

Re R’ Joseph (sorry but without numbered comments I’ve got to use your name) if I were convinced that Azi were an Avrohom Avinu (sorry Azi; and BTW, I’m old enough to be your mother so I’ll call you by name) that might be a different story. As I’m not I would suggest he discuss this with his rebbe, maybe first write out all his thoughts, concerns.

For example, on one side he can have his worries for himself (shidduchim, what people will think), OTOH he can have his concerns for what obligations if any he has, maybe a column to write down his thoughts on perspective (like on a 1- 10 scale where does this fall, compared with lashon hara, bittul zeman, etc.)

Azi, I hear you, but at this point re shidduchim, it’s too late. People know your family, and a superficial change, or a change made superficially, is meaningless. Hopefully people know your mother as a baalas chesed, a baalas middos, who raised a fine young man like you.

Also, as important as this is to you, to the point that you wonder if you should throw out your mother’s property, how consistent are you? This is a level of frumkeit but it is almost superficial. There is shemiras halashon, kashrus, so many things. Do you measure up perfectly yourself? You’re not in shidduchim yet, are you? Because part of growing up for most people is starting to cut others slack and losing some sanctimonious. You may need more time.

Intellegent, my apologies – I missed that post you referred to.

Intellegent, I think you’re confusing this thread with another. I’m not going to reread this again but don’t rememember all your references. You may have been the first to use some indelicate language here.

Re Bizrizut: I would have loved to have been able to have a kid work or go to vocational school by day, and a night sem at night but out of town doesn’t have the range of options that she needed, and I wanted her in a supervised dorm. Again, we need more options and it will take a few years of grass roots work to get them.

Rebetzin, not all Israeli seminaries try to convince a girl to marry a certain type of boy (other than a ben Torah in the truest sense of the word, regardless of whether or not he learns full time). And American seminaries can be just as guilty.

As a parent I don’t think your parents would hurt at all from a kiruv Shabbaton. Don’t they know about the therapist? Do they know about the abuse? Maybe I shouldn’t speak for mothers who are experiencing this but if it’s not too presumptious, as a mother I would be thrilled to see you getting involved in any authentic Jewish way, even if off the beaten track. And a lot of FFBs from fairly uncomplicated situations thrive on the so called kiruv Shabbatons. Just focus on doing what’s going to help you grow. That will give your parents nachas.

Re semtatty: I would hope my kids would maintain a kesher to mechanchim/mechanchos in American sems too. I was just saying that to illustrate that not all is hopeless.

And as far as feeling bad about our kids not being able to engage in all the activities their friends do: I felt bad when my daughter told me about things she missed out on because she was budgeting, but then I realized how displaced these feelings were. It was a good experience for her and frankly my kids know how much goes into this year and are grateful to be there. They have a much better perspective than other kids. And that’s it as far as our financing their education – they take out student loans. It’ll be interesting when we get to our boys, whose education will be our responsibility for quite a few years longer. Hashem yaazor, iy”H.

I read your other post and my heart goes out to you. Are you by any chance in the NY area? There may be more resources there than outside. But outside NY I’m sure there are sources too. Project YES, e.g is all over. And even though usually it’s the parents who make the connections, there is no reason you can’t. There are names I’ve heard that I’m reluctant to mention only because I hate the thought that someone out there is going to be motzi shem ra or otherwise cast aspersions on these fine people, but here goes: Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, Rabbi Yehuda Fine, Rabbi Mitnick of Brooklyn, Dr. Bentzion Twerski. These are for starters. Hatzlacha and kol tuv,

We live in an age of acceleration – incredible increases in technology being the major example. So everything is happening faster, and unfortunately I guess that means that yeridos hadoros is happening at an accelerated rate. Probably the most important thing we can do is model consistency, or let our kids know we attempt to and value it. Rabbi Frand some years ago spoke during the aseres yemai teshuva about cynicism. It may be transcribed in one of his books. It may be the biggest antidote.

A choshuve rav told women NOT to daven or say tehillim? There has to be more to the story. Did he mean from a sefer, or standing up to daven, etc? They can’t move their lips to daven by heart? Something is missing here.

Reminds me of a friend who taught in a secular Jewish high school. At a teacher’s meeting one of the teachers railed about how inappropriate some of the boys were by wearing their caps or other headgear in class. Now clearly these weren’t yarmulkes. My friend said, she would never be able to tell a Jewish boy to take off his hat.

So I can’t believe a rav would say to a group of nashim tzidknonios, don’t daven. Maybe they should stop breathing too.

Ujm and all, I’ve come to the conclusion that the internet, especially this and similar corners, is the Wild West. We can hope that everyone plays fair but if we’re here (and I’m still quite conflicted about this) we have to accept that not everyone will, and our souls may get sullied. There are many dangers present – not just someone else’s kefirah, but the ease with which *I* can run off at the mouth, or keyboard and hurt or damage someone else. Just an example.

Learning is “just” a way to get through the train ride? Something very sad about that.

BTW, it’s possible the women have davened at home and are saying Tehillim on the train, as a “way to get through the…ride” themselves.

Anonforthis: maybe it’s because the uniform manufacturers have this material lying around.

What is wrong with the style from x number of years ago, you ask? Nothing, if the clothes still fit and are in good condition. But I assume you’ve bought a suit recently. Is it different than others you’ve bought in the last 15 years, as far as pattern, stripes and width, or no stripes, lapels, buttons, etc? People grow, styles change, and even if we were to make our own clothes, we would still have to buy the patterns available.

And for women, much more than many men, clothes are a form of self expression. B”H for that. I’d hate to be limited to a chador or burka.

There is a WORLD of difference between jean pants for men and skirts for women. There are styles, and dyes of the denim that are quite tzniusdik. If for whatever reason a community doesn’t hold by denim, I understand, but for those who do allow it, it is practical and fairly presentable.

Dear lkaufman,

I wish you much hatzlacha. And yes, the Israel trip is bound to bring great peiros, even if you don’t see it right away.

That she is sweet and focused – she’s in school and starting college – should give you great hope. So many of the kids who stray these days seem to not have anything substantial to focus on. That your relationship and view of her is so positive is wonderful.

Maybe as an adult she will meet people who will reach her in ways that were not accessible as a child. There are great Jewish college programs and wonderful people on campuses. JAAM, and the Maimonides programs come to mind.

You know, it’s all well and good to say that a hat and jacket is a lechatchila according to our particular derech. As a parent though, I long decided that this could not be a yehoreig ve’al ya’avor. I’d seen enough other kids to think, what if my son for whatever reason is chafing at the bit? Should he feel disenfranchised if he comes to shul without a hat or jacket? They always knew that the line was not hat and jacket, or not, but kempt vs. unkempt. You daven, you look like a mensch. Interestingly, they have no problem with the hat and jacket and bli ayin hara are doing quite well in the system.

But we have to loosen up a bit.

Or maybe I’m missing some kana’us gene.

The articles that I read that covered the men’s asifa also mentioned the women’s. I think that the women’s is accessible via Kol Halashon.

I know Rebbetzin Kotler, tlit’a spoke. Probably quite briefly but that alone I’m sure was worth the rest of it. The other speakers, to be fair, I’m sure were excellent too.