tzippi

Postsemgirl, back in the day, a quarter century ago when I went to sem, they didn’t stress kollel as much as serious life-long learning. What they do now sometimes seems more like turning off from than brainwashing for.

Brooklyn19, who is more privileged:

a) a couple being generously supported for 5 years minimum?

b) a couple that isn’t being supported at all but manages to stay in kollel for a year or two?

c) a couple where the husband learns half day, works half day?

d) a couple where the husband works full time and learns steadily and seriously on a daily basis?

The correct answer is, there are too many more variables to be able to give a definitive answer. ANY of these couples could be truly privileged, if they keep it real and live l’shem Shamayim.

SJS, I have a high regard for you. I would have no problem with my grandchildren being in the same class as your kids. But a few thoughts:

MO is not based on Rav Hirsch. For a good thumbnail sketch of MO I invite you to check out one of the last chapters in The Road Back, by Rabbi Mayer Schiller. While TIDE and MO both involve interfacing with the world, TIDE (ie Rav Hirsch) is not for synthesis, as is MO, but for using what the world has to offer as a “handmaiden”, i.e. an auxiliary to Torah. And modern Zionisim is another example of where they diverge.

Sara Schneirer knew she was doing something radical, which is why she went to the top for approbations.

(And while there are likely no reliable statistics on Chareidis and birth control, I wouldn’t say they don’t believe in it but they approach it differently.)

Re bored@work: are all the working people people who “aren’t cut out for learning”? If they are working, does that mean to you that their bitachon, or level of learning, wasn’t good enough? There are a LOT of people out here who spent several (unsupported) years of learning in kollel and had to go out to work to support their families. I’d like some clarification.

There are the achievements of the individual, the theoretical opportunities for individuals and the community as a whole, and the reality of the social construct now. Don’t know if that’s within the purview of your paper, but this may help give you an outline.

Mrs. Beautiful, good points about the important positions held by African Americans. But on the minus side, and KeepinE, you will have to tread carefully but this is college level so you can’t skirt around this, you will have to discuss the social ills the black community is facing – lack of family structure, the proportion of black men in jail, etc.

Note to the people who aren’t taking this thread seriously: please don’t go off on a tangent on the ills. Thanks!

THE FACT THAT SOMETHING IS PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE DOES NOT MAKE IT MUTTAR TO SPREAD!

Pardon the caps.

Shindy, I mentioned those parnasa options because I think they are reasonable hishtadlus. But you have a point, but then is the only logical conclusion that our kids only become professionals?

Re Itzik: You may want to ask a shaila if you need to ask mechila of the singer for public embarrassment.

You’re looking at a broad range of camps. Take into consideration his age, who else from his school is going where, price for starters.

Re Feivel: the reason I asked is because the concept of sefarim chitzonim was specifically brought up in the context of the times of the gemara. Of course I want to know through the lens of contemporary gedolim; it’s the only way I will know, not being adept with a ouija board. But wouldn’t it be interesting for a contemporary gadol to extrapolate and clearly tell us about other media. Because frankly, all this “well, it’s kosher if you have the right filters” business is only so much sophistry. We have decent filters. B”H. I’ve seen computers with no filters, no passwords, etc. (And I am so grateful I can’t get that great time waster You Tube, because even if I would only watch the pareve forwards I would get less than nothing done around the house.) But the bitul zeman, and the stuff that gets through the cracks, and the ads that appear even on kosher sites…Not to mention the inanity right here. I wonder, that’s all.

Esther, I challenge you to find one CR thread that stuck with the program 😉

Don’t have internet: EST = eastern standard time. I was being tongue in cheek. And truly, hope I didn’t offend anyone.

For those in the EST, group therapy is ending with maariv, so get it in soon 😉

Re Joseph: gavra at work beat me to it. There’s also, v’chol harisha c’reka toveid (risha, not reshaim).

And re ROB: again, is this particular issue a kula vs. chumra thing? And if it is, how do we know that the meikilim are not actually being machmir in their ahavas Yisrael?

I’m looking at my last post. Doesn’t this we and them bother anyone else? Aren’t we all parts of the same guf?

Let me get this straight: the “lenient” view of tinokos shel nishba says that most people ARE. How do we know that gedolim who hold this way are in actuality not being MACHMIR on ahavas Yisrael?

There was mention of what the Shulchan Aruch says on this. Obviously one is not going straight to the Shulchan Aruch but a qualified rav to interpret it for the 21st century as this kind of widespread assimilation is something of an anomaly. So what does the same qualified rav say about using the internet for the coffee room?

Of COURSE they’re tinokos shenishbu. The Judaism they’ve been exposed to is so ersatz that it can’t negate that, and the genuine Judaism they may have had exposure to surely couldn’t counter that.

I heard a fascinating speaker, Reb Simcha Weinstein, who wrote a book called Shtick Shift, about the Jewish impact on comedy. He would be the first to say that while “everyone is Jewish” (no one changes names, Jewish comedians don’t hide what they call their Judaism – as opposed to the Marx bros., Jack Bennys of yore who did, or who acted as WASPY as they could get away with – and I’m not quoting him exactly here) the Judaism on display now is pretty cosmetic and empty. So I can’t believe that there is serious discussion of people not being tinokos shenishbu.

And look in E”Y, R”l, at kids who don’t even know Shema! Don’t tell me they’re not tinokos shenishbu.

Anyone go to the Inspired gathering last night, or catch a hookup?

Re notpashut:

Guard Your Tongue chapter 3 deals with giving the benefit of the doubt. The next chapter deals with someone who transgresses mitzvos between man and Hashem. Yes, it specifically states on p. 59, 9. Shaming a Willful Transgresser that one is permitted to tell others about his misbehavior, shame for his wongdoing, and that one should NOT give such a person the benefit of the doubt.

HOWEVER, while according to the letter of the law, one is permitted to speak lashon hara about such a person if one doesn’t censure him first, it is still proper to rebuke him before you publicize his wrongdoings.

IOW, one should NOT speak lashon hara unless one has first given such a person mussar. And you know how crucial it is to be sure one does that properly, with love in one’s heart and the person’s best interests at heart.

Turn the page, p. 60, where there is a brief outline of the conditions that must be met to be able to speak against such a person. You must witness it yourself unless it is established; you must be absolutely sure it was a transgression; you are not allowed to exaggerate; you must have beneficial intentions; you must not derive pleasure from this.

NOW elsewhere and I can’t spend more time on this, the Chafetz Chaim talks about protecting our CHILDREN from bad influences and IIRC it may even be permissible to exaggerate slightly there. But I think there is a difference between a kid, with whom one’s child spends a lot of time, and an adult family friend. If it is possible to talk about the family friend in tones such as nebach, they are going through nisyonos, B”H we have a solid footing etc. then for sure that would be the correct approach, I would think. And if one had any hopes of maybe being mekarev the friend, then for sure one would speak and deal with them lovingly.

Also, question here: there is no obligation to give a person the benefit of the doubt, in fact one should not. But does that only apply to mitzvos bein adom laMakom, or all mitzvos?

Re notpashut. I’m trying to figure out who it was that you deem obligatory to speak lashon hara of. I can’t quite follow the thread now but I am following the Chafetz Chaim courtesy of Guard Your Tongue and what can i say, this seems completely not pashut.

Squeak, or someone else, please start with alef beis.

E.g. there is a minhag (started by whom and when, and followed by whom now) to play (define the game) when (all the nights of Chanuka?). Is it connected to dreidel, nittel nacht, or what? Etc. Our inquiring minds want to know.

SJS, you have a very valid point about control. BUT there are many valid reasons NOT to have a TV. Leave the frumkeit aside for a moment, and read Rabbi Keleman on TV in To Kindle a Soul (great parenting book to get, BTW).

And bringing frumkeit back into the picture, you may be too young to remember old time TV. Not that I think we can learn middos from the Three Stooges (actually, horribly violent) and old time TV comedy was full of double entendres, but then father knew best. Now fathers are irrelevant, or if present, they know nothing. (And think twice about bringing the Berenstain Bear books into your house too.) The point is, I hope that you think very, very critically and never leave the thing unattended.

I grew up with one and I don’t ever plan on having one in my house. Yes, a computer offers lots of viewing opportunities. Even with heavy filters I was able to watch part of the presidential conventions. But I don’t think I’ll be doing things like that again so soon.

It appears to me that a kid CAN be turned off by hypocrisy yet have the best home environment. All one can do in such a case is keep on doing what s/he is, and the child who goes off may well have respect for their parents and what they stand for, and a loving relationship, especially if the child has felt that his/her parents have always tried to act in their children’s best interests.

Shindy, I was going to say something along the lines of Pashute Yid. I’ll add that the word kelev is the same as k’lev, like the heart because dogs are so loyal. Now maybe cats have just been getting bad press, but while they may be easier to care for than dogs, they’re not as satisfying. (From what I hear. I do not own one.)

Keep saying the words of the siddur. We may not always “feel” it but saying the words written by gedolim of the stature of the Anshei Knesses Hagedola, and Dovid Hamelech, really does great things in a cosmich way, for want of a better way to put it.

I heard an adom gadol say that he would love to have a pet had his apartment allowed for the chinuch value alone.