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Thanks Bemused, I needed that.
We are certainly in the ikvesa d’Meshicha (and I will even entertain the possibility of aschalta d’geula).
Torah is central to a woman’s life too. Every action has to be weighed through the prism of, is this bringing kiddush Hashem or not.
A person’s goal is to be a ben Torah (which means living a life of Torah, not necessarily full time learning) and that the shem Shamayim should be misahev al yado.
Circumstances will lead a man to have to assume the responsibilities of life, and when that happens he should do so proudly and b’simcha.
Did I cover everything?
To M-Maven: ask any accountant about taxes, marriage, etc. to see how much marital status is tied in to civil law. One of the many reasons there is such agitation for recognition of alternative marriage.
And Haifagirl, there is such distaste for polygamy in the US – for good reason, considering the horrible farce of marriage that passed for polygamy here – that agitating for polygamy would be a major, major chilul Hashem. And not too many people other than Sefardim,, maybe, have a mesora of how it should be done properly.
And IIRC it didn’t work out too well as long ago as 1000 years ago in Ashkenazic circles. I can’t imagine how, with yeridas hadoros, we could make a better go of it in the 5770s.
(Remind me again, why am I taking this seriously?!?)
Sorry, it can’t be reinstated – dina demalchusa dina.
AZ, from your numbers the boys seem to be starting at HS+4, not 5.
BTW, the Muslim communities don’t just have gaps of a few years, they have generational gaps. Really not sure what you’re getting at, maybe my coffee hasn’t sunk in. Can you explain?
To mezonos maven: I in no way meant to equate working with shaking hands etc.; I wasn’t as careful as I should have been in my writing, in a rush. I simply meant that there are realities that we can’t ignore. Women have been working for decades now.
And from what I see, I don’t know how one can make it one income unless that income has been incoming since day one. Many people leave kollel making LESS at entry level than they were able to cobble together in kollel. Not pashut.
To Ben Melech (and GAW, who made this point), careers bichlal are a relatively new maaseh. Read Zalman’s Menorah (lovely book) to see the life of a man pursuing his “career.”
I’ll read this thread more carefully later. I can’t help but think though of a Rabbi Reisman shiur last year on galus, and how “the street” decides certain work etiquette (e.g. shaking hands, holiday parties).
The street’s decided. Women will work, even if the men are working. Most likely they need to just to make ends meet. There is a backlash even in the general world (i.e. the street) for more SAHM but more likely than not, women will work, even if only very part time.
We do need to get our heads on straight though. More to come.
MaKesher, do you have kids? Good girls spend time on themselves and notice these things, it’s part of being a teenager, just as solid boys like the shpitz too (true, some more than less), which doesn’t mean they’re not great kids.
NASI = North American Shidduch Initiative
AZ: what makes common sense?
About giving to tzedaka to those who don’t deserve it: I heard this on the words “Hashem tzilcha.” If we give to someone who may not deserve it, but we’re not sure, Hashem will give to us (like a shadow following our actions) eve if we don’t deserve.
I would urge everyone to contact people in their communities to have the kochos to set up a vaad. Then when a collector comes, if s/he has a vaad letter, you can feel comfortable writing a check or giving freely, and you can give small cash donations to those who don’t if you feel uneasy.
As far as the original topic, what to do about so many, that is difficult. Ask a rav how to triage so you can do so in good conscience. Say the tefilla in Shema Koleinu, and read Birchas Haman daily to thank Hashem for letting you be in the position of being able to give, and to daven for those that they should have kol mishalos libhen filled l’tova.
To Cherrybim: I’ll say this again. If a gadol’s son or grandson marries a girl younger than the suggested range, that does NOT mean they aren’t following this. For all we know, the first few girls he dated WERE within range, and that’s all that can be expected. It is impossible to mandate MARRYING within the range. So I will continue to be dan lecaf zechus, as there is no reason not to, and a chiyuv to do so.
AZ, for a few minutes I thought my head was gonna explode. By talking about the out of town girls, it sounded like you were saying there were reasons OTHER than the age gap for girls to not getting married easily, like their being out of town. If you read over every post of yours in this thread you may understand why one would think that if someone besides you brought it up, you read it and yell, Heresy.
But clearly I’m missing something.
AZ, I don’t want to harp on the out of town issue, but can you find a makor for this in the kol koreh?
And about the out of town to in town in general: is there a difference if the out of town girl picks up and moves out to the east coast? The objections that people have to out of towners won’t necessarily dissipate just because these girls have now been added to the suggested pool needed to ease the age gap. (And introducing these younger girls will still contribute to prolonging the crisis; I thought easing the age gap was THE be all and end all.)
AZ, that last bit was fascinating. Don’t 20 y.o. ANYWHERE skew the numbers? Why does out of town get this perk? Aren’t there lots of in-town girls who are languishing? That’s what I hear, x number of girls on such and such in town blocks….
I am seriously sorry for hijacking the thread.
Let’s get back to basics. How can we ease the age gap? So far I’ve seen
1) Encourage close in age dating
2) Start the boys dating earlier
2a) Bring the boys back from E”Y earlier.
What other suggestions are there?
Now, I would suggest that if anyone wants to talk about anything other than the age gap as far as contributing to ameliorating the crisis, we start another thread.
And I too we be fascinated if anyone could crunch numbers in other ways, such as AZ suggested. I’m not the actuary type so that’s not my forte, but maybe others can contribute.
And a P.S. I sent a few daughters to sem in E”Y, don’t want to say, which but none from your list. And I think my girls are quality girls too 😉
To confused Tatty. You’re right about the mix. The good thing about the sems you mentioned (and not to add to the fun but Nachlas IS right in there; a good friend’s daughter was accepted to a number of top sems among the ones you mentioned and chose Nachlas when it was brand new) is that they are all great, and if your daughter is considering them, she is a quality girl. Iy”H when all the applications come back, may she actually have a choice (i.e. get accepted to two or more), may the choice be easy, and may she get into at least one.
Mod, I get it.
It’s part of why I have little to no interest in threads such as the CR parties, etc. If I need that kind of camaraderie, input, etc. I get it from women only forums.
Pookie, which struck you as the more appropriate response to your “thanks for your support”? If b, and you were at all tongue in cheek, please add my request for mechila to my previous post.
Pookie, your message was ambivalent. Not sure how to take it. Either
a) you’re welcome 😉
b) not trying to get this thread closed, just wondering if you’ve thought more about this and have any constructive ideas, your own or others’ you’ve heard.
Hm, AZ, do you mean to say that the Roshei Yeshiva are NOT for chanoch l’naar?
They say that we should encourage close in age shidduchim. They do not say, by any means necessary.
The reason I say that is because it comes back to that:
– it’s a boys’ market and they can make demands, even if demeaning (you said something along those lines). I say, we have to reeducate the boys if they can be so crude.
– you talk about bringing boys back earlier. I say why is it arbitrary, why is our system not geared to bringing the best out of each boy.
I have made it clear that I respect the gedolim and will take this kol korei very, very seriously. It’s just that so many of the auxiliary issues seem to have roots in the OTHER possible issues contributing to the shidduch crisis. I don’t think people should be talked down for bringing up those issues as well, especially when they are such fundamental issues, like the chinuch of our children.
For the boys who are learning well to succumb to such peer pressure, yes, it would be tragic. As for the rest, let them stay chu”l.
Or maybe they would if there wasn’t such a herd mentality and some real chanoch l’naar.
Sorry, I’m going in circles again. Let’s save us some time.
AZ – age gap
Tzippi – chanoch l’naar
Repeat till moderator closes the thread.
To Cherry bim, in defense of the “R”Y 70”: who’s to say that their sons didn’t date a few girls within range first? Let’s be dan l’kaf zechus. You see, you may be on to something. Is this to be MANDATED for MARRIAGE? Or for a limited trial run re shidduchim? Because the latter is reasonable and possible, the former is not.
AZ, about how long are the boys in E”Y on average, from what age to what age?
Hashem Is Everywhere, why do you think your parents don’t know what’s best?
How do you propose WE put an end to it. Why should we? I think we can feel sad about it but I don’t think this thread is going to be constructive at all, IMO, and I hope the mods watch it carefully.
SJS, looking at my kids’ work, sometimes I wonder if today’s teachers know how to compose GOOD tests. Sure, there is the need to make sure there is a solid grasp of the material, but there should definitely be some thinking questions, requiring manipulation of the material.
To Pashute Yid: I had a hunch, still a bit unexpected.
And a P.S. One might argue, but it’s different for the girls. EXACTLY. Boys and girls ARE different. Their educational system is different, and they may actually be ready for certain things at different ages.
CKK, unlike with the girls, the boys don’t have an arbitrary time that they go to E”Y. If it is arbitrary, we have a great problem with our learning system. It should be an organic part of their program to maximize their growth in learning. For some boys it will be this year, that zman, for others a different one, varying from yeshiva to yeshiva, and from boy to boy within a single yeshiva.
Then, depending on where they go, whom they form a shaichus with, etc. each boy will stay as long as it is feasible for him and his parents, while he is still growing.
If it’s all arbitrary, better the boys stay in chu”l.
I can’t wait till the grandkids are old enough. People can drive, get together in ways they can’t on yom tov. Are you talking about family get togethers? You should only know (know only) such nachas.
To P-Yid: Read a letter in the recent Yated a girl writes to her sister now in sem. I think the girls grow tremendously. Doesn’t HAVE to be a full school year in E”Y, there are sems chu”l and I think we need more dorming options in NY to see a sea change. But B”H I know I’ve seen great peiros, personally and from my own daughters.
EDITED
AZ, you the number man. Do you know what percentage of within age marriages it will take to significantly ameliorate the problem? I have been zoche to participate or otherwise share in various simchos, and they’re not within range (including a 23 y.o. young woman who married a guy 3 full years older). I think this is what’s causing unease among people such as Cherrybim and myself. Will this get better with anything short of MANDATING? And what of other somewhat significant issues? If we address them, such as a radical chanoch l’naar campaign, easing the other “gaps” will that help too?
To Feif Un: there are fine girls’ schools that aren’t called Bais Yaakovs, e.g. Bruriah. I think BJ means Orthodox girls’ schools in general, and it’s quite reasonable to ask about the educational background.
And I hit send too fast: how old was your father when he got married? What do your parents think?
Hashem is everywhere: are you serious? Is your brother capable of shouldering all the burdens of life? I know, a lot of guys, if not most, don’t have degrees, etc. when they get married, but they have to be prepared, emotionally and otherwise to drop whatever they’re doing to get that training because no one knows what life will bring. I think that many boys at just under 21 – that’s barely three years out of high school – are better off learning full time without distractions.
H-someseichel, since when it is expected for boys not to date before 24? Most guys I know are starting at 22. Though I do know some kids who definitely should NOT start before 24. Think of the alter Mirrers, who started late because they knew that once they got married, the intense learning might well be over. Hmmm, may be on to something….
There is a great, beautiful story of Rav Schvadron and the kid who was going to the big soccer games.
There was also a Yated chinuch column about sports. A lot of angles. Is this theoretical or practical? How old is the kid? Will it impinge on his sleep and school performance? Is he obsessed with sports?
Haifagirl, google CSI:shidduchim .
Gaffligle, what goes into that education is broad general knowledge and skills, halacha and hashkafa to give the girls a bren to value the previous two.
Nowadays, not only are many mothers not in a position to teach, there are many home ec skills they don’t know. I’m grateful my kids got sewing, and even cooking, which I can do. Probably to use up elective hours or similar requirements by the state.
re smalltown girl, here’s an example: Nails that seem to peel in layers is one of the symptoms of hyperthyroidism.
Bein Hasedorim, we also have to start with the BOYS’ chinuch, giving them breathing room and being mechanech al pi darkom.
There is a lot of overlap between those seminaries. Whoever gave you this list should be able to help you narrow it down – good sources include current and very recent students and parents, and the faculty of your daughter’s school.
Demosthenes, my apologies for being so “teef.” But you do see how a girl, let’s call her Cicera, who had a bully of an older brother is still feeling worn down by a system that is geared to boys (you know the old line about boys needing a secretary, girls a press agent) and that makes her feel like so much meat, and not even the freshest.
I’m not saying whose reality is more accurate, just commenting.
Havesomeseichel, perhaps Demosthenes was subconciously saying that boys have been and are being emasculated, and need permission to develop their more creative sides and not deny it instead of being pushed into some “best boy in yeshiva” cookie mold. Sounds more like the learning gap than age gap.
Maybe he can rewrite his essay so we’ll all be able to understand not just his conclusion, which didn’t fully follow, but his reasoning.
And Demosthenes, how long have you been so misogynistic?
ICOT, I also don’t quite agree. Yes, he’s playing favorites but there’s some subtle subliminals going on. Like the Newsweek on death panels etc. I just read (I get them from the library so I’m a bit behind). Oh no, NO ONE’S talking about death panels, heaven forfend, we just want to give the elderly a vocabulary and permission to do what’s really best for them and society, ad nauseum. Very scary stuff.
Oomis, I beg to differ. I don’t know the source of the bells, but I don’t think it’s at all analogous. And what happens when a large Arab population moves in and wants their veckers to make a ruckus early in the morning (and late in the evening)? Let’s not make waves. Baltimore’s been doing just fine. I know, Rabbi Frand’s message this year in various teshuva talks has been about the inner connection between Shabbos and teshuva and the beauty and value of strengthening shemiras Shabbos. I really, really, really don’t think he ever dreamed of a siren in making mental lists of what we can do more l’kavod Shabbos.
Again, I really, really want to know what reputable leaders in Baltimore are saying about this.
Chops, sounds incredible. IF this is normative in your neighborhood, or lowerkey than normative. If it’s way out of the realm of normative, I suggest you consider things carefully.
May your home be a bayis neeman, full of simcha, mitzvos, meaning and kol tuv!