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Anon for this, every guy who applies has to fill out a FAFSA form, so they are accredited which gives one some options.
AZ, do young men move on from Lakewood at a certain point? Are there other smaller yeshivos that have a concentration of older boys? I have a good friend whose son moved on, not from BMG but a yeshiva he was at for a good few years for a change of pace and mazal.
Well, why don’t you tell us what you think exactly?
Any guidelines for this discussion so that it won’t immediately devolve into lashon hara and be closed?
I just saw your post on the RMB thread. Sounds like you don’t have to worry about the age issue with your kids. I also bet that whoever you talk to will urge you to take a pilot trip so get ready.
Have you been in charge with aliyah promotion groups, like (I think it’s called) Nefesh b’Nefesh? They can help with practical advice.
There are some articles you want to read. You may find them by googling Leah Kuber and Yair Spolter. (Rebbetzin and Rabbi respectively.) They’ve written articles about making aliyah, difficulties with certain age kids, etc. There are SO many factors. While you may get some good direction here I urge you to find groups where you can exchange emails, etc. for better and more direct communication.
Hatzlacha! May we all get there soon!
To melechalmaklo: I wonder. I hear about the boys who are asking for six digits, a house, etc. but honestly, the boys who are “only” after the basic five year plan may be more practical than greedy. How far does a supplemental 12k a year go, anyway, sometimes? Maybe 12k is mistapek b’muat.
But there are only so many PHDs.
And I know plenty of girls getting married to middle class (or barely) families, who are somehow getting supported. Even if it’s a ZHD, Z’s money can only stretch so far due to all the branches.
to GAW: what makes you think it’s just Lakewood?
OK, I get it.
They don’t have to wait for a “rich” papa, just one who’s willing to overextend himself enough. And again, they are banking on the girls’ parnasa. As one parent recently said, used to be that chas v’shalom girls went to college – oy, a career girl. Now the first question is, what’s she doing.
Isn’t that supposed to be one of the reasons boys should prefer older girls, because they already have parnasa under their belts?
To Jothar: and I thought the answer was, practice.
Hatzlacha to the OP and may you see hashgacha every step of the way.
I know plenty of boys who are would be thrilled with a PhD. They’re looking for nurses, speech therapists (doesn’t have to be kosher online either) and more.
True, a lot of these girls find that their degrees are meaningless in E”Y. Hopefully they’ll be able to pick up where they left off if they come back to the states, or they’ll work hard to get the certification they need in E”Y.
I’m not savvy enough to search here, snip, etc. but I believe AZ once said that of course boys will be ridiculously picky, due to the demographics. I simply commented there that I think it’s really sad. If we have been given this nisayon of the shidduch crisis due to demographics, as is maintained (rather than say that we have created shidduch crisis due to poor chinuch, learning gap and other factors; OR rather than say it’s a combination of such factors and demographics, IOW, if we’re going to focus TOTALLY on demographics in finding a solution) then we have to say, wow, what a nisayon. Like all nisyanos, isn’t Hashem putting us here to see if we act from our greatest strengths, with nobility and menschlichkeit?
Instead, if you’re going to say, well of course the boys WILL demand because they can, because of the supply, we’re flunking this nisayon big time, and have to figure out how to educate to pass it.
AZ, did I explain this clearly? Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Rockymts, I wish I had answers. I wish there were more dorm seminaries and programs, especially in NY for girls. What’s needed is a supervised program for girls interested in a half day sem and afternoon vocational training, WITH A DORM.
The ones I know of:
Maalot Baltimore
Yavneh (no dorm but apartments, the girls are really happy from what I’ve heard)
Detroit Teacher’s Seminary
Montreal – Rabbi Aisenstark
Bais Yaakov Boro Park
Lakewood (two now?)
Chicago – Dr. Shkop, more of a college
And – while this should NOT be a consideration – rest assured that girls who go to these sems make excellent shidduchim, I know of quite a few recent ones.
Oomis, I hadn’t heard of this when I was younger. I would have loved to have done something like that to give hope to someone struggling with fertility, so ran it by my daughter as her pregnancy progressed. We were told that if it wasn’t our family’s minhag, not to do it.
To jewwithnomoney: where’s the menschlichkeit?
The problem with the “they have no need to accept anything but the best mentality” was explained pretty well in a recent article on the shidduch crisis and the danger of dimyon, constant comparison and holding off for the best.
AZ, two weeks ago there was a letter in Yated imploring people not to redt girls who just came back from seminary (now this is five months post sem, mind you). The letter was signed by NASI (no name though).
I just want an answer: how long should these girls wait to be redt? Until they’re within the guidelines? So if they or their parents feel that a boy’s not mature till 22 they have to wait till they’re at least 20 (maybe 20 and a few months)? That could mean a wait of a year and a half post sem.
To melechalmaklo: certainly chinuch is at the core. But the demographics is a real issue, and an easy symptom to get at. No reason not to make a few attempts at evening the numbers first (i.e. date the first few times within range). But personally I would like to see the other issues addressed with as much passion.
To Cherrybim: the travesty is people purporting to speak in the names of the R”Y. Unless someone is a known talmid muvhak (first and last name please) he is doing the cause a grave disservice.
Oomis: refuah shleimah!
Anon for this: the live virus is also contraindicated for people with autoimmune conditions and on immunosuppressants.
To charliehall: I don’t think that’s entirely true. While people are doing the watchful waiting thing they can take extensive precautions like frequent handwashing, being aware of their environment, etc. (Helps a lot also if you don’t have to take the subway or other crowded public transport.)
To Charlie Hall: you’re absolutely right. And so is she, for being concerned. Overall that is the healthiest attitude to project. But we don’t know exactly where the poster coming’s from.
Here’s an example: a secular kid gets his ear pierced. There is a real possibility that there is NOTHING for the parents to be concerned about. A frum kid gets his ear pierced. There is a LOT for the parents to be concerned about, and there were probably a few stages of progressive concern till the piercing. As ridiculous as it may seem, the jeans are a red flag. I don’t think kids should be as limited as they are, clothes seem like such an innocuous way for kids to stretch a little, but there are realities in this world.
Mommy 613, as much as you don’t want to “drag rabbanim into this” I honestly think you will sleep better getting clarity from some of the fine people, or that sort, I mentioned who would be so happy to help you. I really trust in their discretion. This will not go on your son’s “permanent record.” And I have a hunch you will see much nachas from this young man!
AZ, my computer’s been down so I couldn’t respond to something on the goral thread before it was closed. (I tried starting a new topic but the mods haven’t put it through. Good thing, maybe we can continue it here because I think it’s apropos.)
You wrote, on the goral thread, that we brought this situation on ourselves and we have to get ourselves out of this mess. How did we bring the age gap on ourselves if HASHEM decided how many boys and girls should be born? Do you mean to imply that there are factors other than age that could be addressed, and that might be helpful in ameliorating the shidduch crisis?
Mods, I hope you let this through. We might be on to something here.
Oomis, I’m just amazed your dr. has it – in these parts no doctor has it and you have to go to mass clinics to get it.
And about autism: I don’t worry about the connection re vaccinations but I do wish that the doctors would use a different schedule. These poor babies are overloaded with combined vaccines; it seems like a lot for a developing immune system.
Dveykus613, you’re pointing to the catch22: the most vulnerable to the flu are also the ones who are most scared of reactions. Until and after you make a decision, frequent handwashing and being aware of where your hands go are your best lines of defense. Pregnant women don’t want to go crazy in the supplement dept. but ask your dr. about taking vitamin C, and what safe limits are (maybe a gram a day).
Great health benefits in jail, from what I understand.
Guess what? He still may turn into a talmid chacham. But as much food for thought as this thread will give you, please please contact Project YES, Rabbi Horowitz, Dr. BZ Twerski… there are many good people out there who will help you sort your thoughts and give you a good script.
Meanwhile, plan on how you can spoil him for breakfast (and no strings attached. He’ll be waiting for the other shoe to drop; don’t let it.). That’s probably the best hishtadlus after Tehillim you can do right now.
AZ, I’d have felt a bit more reassured had you written that some of these out of the box suggestions SHOULD be swept under the table, not “will.”
To Simcha1000: you have a point. BUT I’ve been to enough productions to tell you that a lot of the music is a lot better than some of the Jewish stuff. (I haven’t heard all of Riverdance but it seems fairly unsubversive.)
When did he change into them? Is he living a double life in yeshiva or is this a yeshiva which is cool with variations in levush? Not a bad thing, just questions you want to sort out.
I’d go to someone like Rabbi Yakov Horowitz who can help you figure it out.
I’m not one for needing haskamos for everything but do wonder if there’s anyone else behind this. I can’t help but think of the R’ Reinman-Hirsch appearances (that weren’t) and the resulting flak. I know, apples and oranges but I do wonder what the backstory to this one is.
Holy delayed reaction, Batman, but to anyone who seems to be saying that sechar is in direct proportion to the action’s facilitating limud Torah, what does “ein hamidrash ha’ikar ela hamaaseh” mean? Isn’t fulfilling any of the 613 our ticket?
To Nissan: I heard b’shem a gadol (not one hundred percent sure if my memory is correct) that folk music/sixties was about the end of it as far as the goyishe music being redeemable.
And this is something someone should be able to verify, because it is well known: another gadol said that you can tell kosher music from not, depending on how it makes you move, either swaying right to left kumzits style, or other ways.
What does that mean, YCT vs. BMG? Isn’t YCT vs. a typical yeshiva? I would think Rabbi Feldheim, like it or not, is representing a wide gamut of yeshivos, at least in the eyes of the YCTniks who’ll be there.
Ok, I’m going to try not to overthink and stop with this.
I’ve maintained that while age is a primary contributing factor, it is far from the only one, and the others should be tended to as well. My hunch is that Rabbi Miller might be addressing the societal ills etc. rather than the age issue solely. AZ might differ.
But my having this hunch and speaking for Rabbi Miller may make me as presumptuous if not more so, so I should be asking mechilla too.
Once again, apologies to AZ for being too hard on him. I could have made my point in a gentler way.
But I have a hunch I’m right 😉
Health, true, but my assumption is that there is a population among his patients that’s recommended to get the shot, so he’s thought about this.
I’ve heard local doctors talk about this shot, they’re on the radio at least weekly. For the most part they’re saying what you say. But some are so arrogant (the MDeity type) that it’s hard to be mekabel. So I’ve still been trying to listen to the experts, and come to my own conclusion.
Anyway, moot till I can find a clinic not on Shabbos (NONE of our offfices – pediatrician, specialist, etc. have the shots).
Wow, I’ll have to read the M-Maven’s posts more carefully if that’s true.
But AZ, got to call you on the carpet for this terrible, terrible bizayon to such a gadol (who’s to say that Rabbi Miller wouldn’t reconsider, to paraphrase you). Rav Hirsch, on “Aseh Torascha keva” explains that the Torah is the keva. It is everything else that we see through the prism of Torah; we don’t subject Torah to the times.
Reading the Rav Miller quote I am inclined to say that he considered that unchanging Torah.
But hey, let me know how the seance goes.
I almost skipped over this because come on, what’s the chiddush? But this has potential…
Thanks PY, I needed that. Good job I didn’t bring my coffee down here or my computer might not be functioning.
And hey (es chatai ani mazkir) why not call the over 30 plan, Carousel?
Hey Mazca, maybe you said it all;-)
to ronrsr: absolutely. I saw an African dance troup and it was on one hand animalistic, on the other amazing artistry and control. The latter isn’t machsir it and one can take that really far.
Dr. Yoel Jakobovitz (pardon spelling, the chief rabbi’s son) of Baltimore wrote an article in WhereWhatWhen suggesting that people who feel it necessary to get the vaccine wait till the first wave of shots passes so they can see what kind of reactions are being reported.
From what I’ve heard, this is prepared the same way as the standard flu shot so there shouldn’t be concerns of the reactions of 30odd years ago. Though I’m not a hundred percent sure the adjuvants aren’t an issue.
Almost moot. I’d like to get it for a high risk family member but you have to be on high alert for when a new (not Shabbos) clinic is available and be willing to give up the day for it.
What am I missing here?!?!
What’s cool about a Jewish boxer? I enjoy sports but any sport where an integral part is to hurt someone else (boxing, and maybe football; there’s a lot of buzz about degenerative neural conditions and football these days) is horrible, not to mention halachically problematic.
Pookie, do you mean to imply that there should be classical music in the background? Important detail.
So a NASI spokesman who is advocating putting girls in the freezer(and I’m curious for how long) is speaking with the full haskama of the 70 signatories? Please clarify.
None of us are G’d’s accountants but curious for people’s opinions: there was a great woman in Baltimore, a true tzadekes who hadn’t married but did untold and unbelievable amounts of chesed, all an outgrowth of her Torah-oriented life (wish I knew how to put those last three words in bold, or italics). Do you mean that her ONLY ticket to olam haba was the tzedaka she gave to yeshivos, or the married women she helped so their husbands can learn, or the carpools she drove as pinch hitter?
Haifagirl: re dinner – grounds for divorce?
And thanks to Bemused. Getting the popcorn ready.
BTW, anyone see the Yated letter from NASI (wonder WHO from NASI) begging people not to redt shidduchim for girls just out of sem? Are they advocating putting girls in the freezer? If so, for how long?
And if NASI wants to be taken seriously, how about signing one’s names to such letters?
I think that Bnos Sarah has a lot of chavrusa style learning.
About convention: probably the best source will be the girls networking among themselves and chaperones. Call the host school and find out who’s coming to town and whom they’d recommend your daughter trying to meet with. I would suggest she have a very focused list of questions to maximize the time.
M Maven, which wife shouldn’t have the legal benefits? Unless you also want to reinstate pilagshus. Now THAT’s an idea, huh.
I still can’t take this seriously.
Moderator80, what you said about it being shayoch for women as well is absolutely true. I do wonder what our OP was getting at because I think the intent was specifically re men.
FWIW, I’ve heard descriptions of Arab married life. After a while, a guy will marry a younger second wife who becomes chief cook and bottlewasher. After a while he will marry a third wife, second gets to order number three around, etc. Not happy married life.
And they marry within a very unhealthy age range.
And it’s not the girls who are desperate to get married. It’s the fathers who are desperate to marry them off.
Please let’s limit our extrapolations from a dysfunctional society.
AZ, they’re baiting you. Don’t fall for it.
Anyone who IS serious about this is crazy. Look at all the asifos, recent and planned, re proper running of businesses, etc. in light of the horrible financial scandals. Do you really think any sane rav would advocate something so illegal?