tzippi

And what about all the young men still in full time learning who would leave if they could? And they wouldn’t leave for the streets. They’re 25+, want to finish school, work, learn 1 – 2 sedarim a day, but noooo, the type of decent BY girls they want won’t have them. (And on the flip side, what about the girls who would look for that, if THEY had permission to?)

This isn’t a parents/kids dichotomy, it’s the parents AND kids vs. society one.

And no, I don’t believe the system’s failed if there’s a bachur who would voluntarily leave the beis medrash a nanosecond before he has to.

SinglePicky, I can’t say, but the young women I know who did marry men who were previously married may have complicated their lives, but did not compromise.

Do you mean first year out of high school?

I get the impression that many boys go 3rd year or so. If you mean straight out of high school, he should go with a very strong chevra to a yeshiva with a good dorm and serious hashgacha.

Ask the hanhala to explain the discrepancy, and what you should say to your son and how.

I was thinking of the original turntable albums, didn’t realize that new releases on CD, etc. were still called albums.

CYLOR. I know my local rav (reputable, just want to stay “anon”) isn’t keen on it for Pesach.

Albums?!? Glad I’m not the only dinosaur here.

Did I say who was paying?

Haifagirl, who’s that email from?

And Youdon’tknowme, nothing wrong with parents being involved in research and vetting, but there’s a difference between saying yes to kids going out, and pushing into marriage.

That part wasn’t clear to me.

bored, grams I don’t know; I buy yeast in bulk. But I mentioned on the other thread, one packet is 2 1/4 tsp.

To add to hello99: I don’t do the numbers crunching bit so I’ll take what you have to say seriously. And add that since this thread is dealing with OLDER singles, who should definitely be thinking outside the box (NOT compromising, just being open to new ideas) the age guidelines are intriguing. After all, to a 30 y.o. young man, how big a difference is 32 to 28?

OTOH, since we’re dealing with older singles, the LAST thing they need to do is NARROW the prospective pool of shidduch possibilities by LIMITING to this narrow age frame.

To wordofthewise: sorry if my tone was a bit confrontational (“ever heard of work study?”)

But this is not a bad thing for our boys. I’m not saying you subscribe to this, but there seems to be a school of thought that feels that if a boy concentrates on absolutely anything but learning, he has to go back to square one or something or he won’t reach gadlus (or his full potential). I beg to differ.

Poster,funny you mention that. When my husband was in the dorm, if he didn’t like what was being served he just went hungry. (He was pretty skinny at the time.) Wonder why the boys now won’t make do with pas b’melech, or pb, at least a good part of the time.

For someone determined not to comment…well here I am. I just want clarity and realize that I need to clarify something.

There is a shidduch crisis and the contributing factors, and I realize the need to focus on the age gap. I wouldn’t be so dismissive of the pie chart, there is serious buzz about, say, the learning gap. But I’m not an actuary or sociologist and can’t crunch the numbers some feel is necessary to fully address it.

But I wasn’t referring to the other issues contributing to the shidduch crisis in my earlier post. I wasn’t in crisis mode at all. I was simply referring to certain ikrim that can’t be trampled on in coming to a solution. Kind of like getting a prescription filled and you want to be sure that there won’t be negative repercussions. Some ikrim include emunas chachamim, chanoch l’naar, middos, etc.

I’ll refer to the first two examples of ikrim. IF and when my boys go to E”Y they will not be dilletantes out for an “experience.” They will go to a specific yeshiva to learn under the hanhala there for their growth as bnei Torah. We will not set arbitrary cut off dates. I’m apprehensive about advising people to do something without knowing if it’s good advice for THEM, there’s this lifnei iver thing.

There is emunas chachamim. If it were at all possible in galus for something like this to occur, if there was uniform, specific, targeted lashon by a vast majority of gedolim, of course I would listen. (And listening doesn’t preclude going to an adom gadol and getting clarity as an individual, BTW.) If there was a takana that could have legs saying go for nine months only I could be machshiv it. But otherwise, I have to be leery about blanket solutions that are contraindicated by the ikrim.

I’m going to try to hold back from commenting on these inyanim. While I do post anonymously occasionally when forums allow, I’m consistent enough and enough people know me I don’t want to embarrass myself further when I get carried away.

But food for thought: True, Rav Shteinman shlit”a used a very shtark word, agunos, to bring home how serious this situation is. But I can’t believe that he and the other signatories would advocate, by any means necessary.

The other week there was an article in Yated about the proverbial cat in the aron. I have to wonder – and I’m not in a beis medrash, or around the right people to ask to confirm, as AZ and AG, et al are – might there be some thresholds that the gedolim feel are in the go without saying category? What are some fundamentals that can’t be tinkered with lightly?

Oomis, very true about the need for preschool. However this wacky new plan would essentially result in an extra year of playgroups for girls.

OK, new round of putting words into the mouths of people much greater than we:

So Rabbi Aisenstark (my apologies, a hundred times!) would advocate possibly sacrificing the chinuch of a generation so that hundreds and hundreds of girls may (because without chinuch in the best interests of the kids who knows how messed up things will be) get married in the next generation.

AZ, perhaps I was wrong in making such a definitive claim. But from what I see, little boys need to stay with their mothers as long as little girls do, this may give rise to an extra year of playgroup for girls who need socializing, and as girls are ready to learn just as early as the boys are, it will not be an easy last year of playgroup for these kids who are ready to learn. Takeh, Rabbi Aisenstark has said that lechatchila kids should be home till about 5 (years old, not PM) but this isn’t the world we’re living in.

And I really don’t think we’ll get the uniform compliance needed for this to work.

And I’m very leery of social engineering. As it is the system could use more work in the chanoch l’naar department.

Youdon’tknowme, that’s ok, my 22 y.o daughter only wants a guy 24 or older, so you guys cancel each other out.

Maybe more for the grownups than kids, but Rabbi Reisman’s shiur last motzei Shabbos on the Anshei Knesses Hagedolah was amazing.

Oomis and Squeak, there’s another angle. True, from the “client’s” side, gratitude is important, and tangibly mandated if the shidduch goes through. But if this becomes the norm, then no one will make shidduchim unless they will be compensated early on. It will be what a generation or two will have grown up with as normal. Talk about creating a shidduch crisis!!

But I don’t see it happening.

Potpie, to answer your questions –

yes, it is as good

and I have no idea what’s the better fit.

Happyooter, the beauty of the frum leagues is the playing – for fun, not for blood, like jphone mentions. I think that as long as the kids recognize that while there is excitement in following the WS, this isn’t the way they should enjoy playing, no problem.

Hard to give you an answer. I do know that the local girls who went to Darchei Bina have excellent middos, academically focused, and more likely to marry working boys (i.e. no kollel) than the Chochmas Lev girls. Not a judgment call, just trying to clarify who goes. The CL girls have excellent middos and are solid academically too, BTW 😉

My apologies. I think your question was what if I was reflecting calls all day for me drive people. I would limit the amount of people I drive. Also, it’s important to point out that there is never an opportunity for the occasional $1500+ bonus in my driving.

I am still not sure about this total paradigm shift in the paying. Of course we’ve always been courteous about thanking our shadchanim, sending flowers or a gift certificate to those who’ve gone above and beyond (not talking about the shadchan involved in a successful shidduch). Isn’t this what your parents did too? (If you don’t mind getting back to one of my questions.) Or did/do they pay along what’s being suggested?

And perhaps it’s unfair to put this all on AZ’s shoulders. Let’s hear more from our original poster, Lo Yitzloch (hey, I didn’t choose that name).

AZ, my understanding is that is quite traditional to pay the shadchan, pro or not, for a shidduch. The going rate in many areas is 750 from each side. The pros may charge more, I don’t know. NO ONE is saying don’t pay a shadchan when the couple gets engaged.

There are people who have their reservations about the 3 dates/$150 chiddush.

My apologies to any shadchan I’ve offended, or disgusted. I would take to heart what you have to say very much if you choose to contact a YWN moderator and go anonymously through a moderator if that could be arranged. Tizku l’mitzvos!