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Ofcourse: rabbi Volbe discusses coaxing by family members. He’s very against it
ItcheSrulik: How can you love someone you’ve never done anything for? Infatuated, yes! Love yourself, yes! Love the potential spouse SELFLESSLY, impossible!
Think about the fish story. We eat fish because we like ourselves, not the fish! !
Ofcourse: One of the problems that can arise from people who’ve suffered through the dating scene for so long is, that they can become a little desensitized. They have been burnt several times. Sometimes we suffer from PTDS (Post Traumatic Date Syndrome).
We say, “how can I marry him/her, # 168 was better at X” “#73 was better at Y”. Its very difficult.
I think, as at all stages in life, it’s extremely important to have a Rov/Rebbe/Rebbetzen/competent mentor, who have our best interest at heart. They can help us heal and push through life’s very difficult challenges.
Ofcourse: A guy discussed a girl he was dating with Rabbi Miller. Guy told RM everything is makes sense but, its “just not clicking”. RM: “your clicker’s broken!”
yogibooboo: “maybe there was someone better”
Although we can’t make a wedding on Chol HaMoed we may be mekadesh a woman then, because someone may precede you through rachamim.
A first date is usually capped at 2 hours total including travel time. If both parities have time, patience and interest, thats a different story. When people are older, things can be different. Or, if one person traveled from out-of-town
Snapple, what other option is there?
deiyezooger: No. The satmer Rebbe didn’t serve as a dayen for his community. He left that To Rabbi Roth, Rabbi Berkowitz and others.
Rabbi Bick was the Rov of a small shul. He was well known since he was a big Talmud Chochom and a person who was able to deal sensibly with people getting divorced. They had different professions. Zeh hu
Popa, I usually am enlightened by your comments. I disagree with this one.
Too much talking during engagement, especially if its a long engagement, can lead to lots of frustration. Desires exist and are aroused, but have to be shut down. It can lead to feeling frustrated at the “situation”, and eventually, at the future spouse.
A cute one from a Rabbi Krohn tape. Rabbi Bick encouraged people to have at least 6-8 dates prior to getting engaged.
The Satmer Rebbe disagreed. He punned “katzti b’chayai mipnai bnos ‘chais'” (its what Rivkah told Yitzchok when sugesting what type of wife Yaakov should marry.)
Rav Bick responded, the Satmer Rebbe can say so since he is mesader Kidushin. Rav bick is mesader Gitten…
I think it depends on a persons background and how long they’ve in the dating scene for.
Someone fresh into the dating scene takes each date seriously, with excitement and is very astute during the dates. They usually don’t need as long. If they are serious and want to date longer, it would be terrible to discourage it.
When people have been dating for years, they need more dates to develop a comfortable connection. I’d rather not go through the reasons. They usually need many dates.
I don’t think it would make a difference
doodle jump: Yes, real cases exist. They are far and few in between. The vast majority of them are baloney.
bochur24: I’m glad we agree. Just to clarify. Shimshon was punished terribly for whom he married. He married a Pilishty, even though he converted her, for the sake of his marriage. So Hashem allowed him the choice but, he chose wrongly. (Here he should have known better..)
doodle jump:
I have one word: BALONEY!
I’ve heard all these sob stories as well. Then I’ve seen how these poor victimized “stable” wives who, through no-fault of their own, ended up with these “monsters”, behave during and following the divorce process.
What happened behind closed doors is unknown. What they did/are doing is known. And usually it is far from aidel. These caring mothers withhold their children from the father, accuse the father in court of the most heinous crimes- which always gets reversed in the end, stoop to anonymously accusing them on the internet (on shmutz sites) of pures shmutz and having them atop the google list, on and on.
If you need it, use it. Why not? just be sure to turn on the “airplane mode” which will halt all calls, texts and emails.
A siddur does have the advantage that its used exclusively for davening which will bring a certain feeling with it. Like you said, you kiss it… 🙂
bochur24: Thank you. I think we are actually in agreement (for the most part).
You said: “I feel that yes, you have the choice to marry someone, but that that choice is limited to your choosing right or wrong and not whether the marriage actually takes place.”
Then we are in agreement.
bochur24: I’m starting to get confused over here. What are we disagreeing about? Please, in a few short words, post your position, then post my position. No proofs.
Example
bochur24:
tbt:
After you’ve posted each of our positions clearly, please feel free to post your thoughts and proofs. Thank you
If it’s too difficult, how about leaving it for another time. Think about it. Discuss it with a Rov, Rebbe or friend. It may be true. Thank you
bochur24: it sure does! Everything is for a reason and exact. Everything is midah kneged midah.
If you’re talking about tzadik v’ra loi, that’s a whole different question, that may be asked, like the nevieim including Moshe asked.
bochur24: I re-read your posts. I may have been unclear in what I wrote in my earlier posts. I still stand with them. Not at all taking Hashem out of the equation. On the contrary, believing in Schar V’onesh means excepting Hashaem’s rule and that nothing gets past Him.
always here: kefirah = heresy
Please be a little more open-minded!
doodle jump:
bochur24:
* Bordering on Kefira
* Daass Tevunos
Say, a person takes a hammer and slams his toe. As a result he spends two weeks in the hospital in pain. He did it at work, so his employer fired him. Etc. etc. He suffered a lot.
Sorry, HaShem gave him a choice and gives most of us this choice every day. To absolve ourselves of responsibility, that may be Kefirah.
(Many many times people do suffer in a way that is not easily comprehensible. Hashem does have an exact cheshbon though)
If a person did not get the Mon at the door of his tent, he had to go out and collect it from a little further away. Was that bashert. Yes and no. It was bashert based upon his current madreiga. However, the tzadikim got their mon at their door. He did have an option of becoming a tzadik.
This is the exact opposite of “It is exactly ‘Kochi VeOtzem Yodi…’!!”. Everyone wanted the mon at their door. They DID have that option through doing what Hashem wanted.
bochur24: I don’t see how you are invalidating my questions or point. You are bringing proof about changing OTHER peoples destiny. This thread and my point are about OUR own destiny.
But as a general rule, nowadays, people tend to be a little too trigger happy to jump into divorces. I know of several cases where what the party requesting the divorce sought to accomplish only worsened once divorced. A couple of cases with money… it was much worse once divorced.
Take the “Asorah harugai Malchus”, all the blood libels (and ensuing pogroms) that were caused by mechiras Yosef.
Yosef tried to calm his brothers down but, there were consequences for their behavior.
My beef is that certain terms have come from being one of emunah and bitochon to being defined quite contrary to that.
ROB: You seem to have an infinite amount of time to devote to this ideology. All the mainstream rabbonim disagreed with him. You had to dig up some not well known mechaber of two hundred years ago.
This is misleading as well. Put Reb Akiva Eiger in context. Mention all the titels he bestows on people throughout his responsa. Mention that most responsa written in that era contained lines of praise.
edited
Yochie: What persentage of Brooklynites do not have a Rov or Rebbe. Now contrast that with “out-of-towners”.
You’re welcome Popa
doodle jump: It’s all beshert. Do you believe that the couple getting divorced was beyond their control and just “beshert” or that they may have done things by their own bechira/free will which is wrong, such as getting divorced- or causing the breakdown for divorce?
Could we even go a step further and say that sometimes a person chooses to marry someone whom they RELIZE its not who HaShem wants them to choose as a spouse? If that person gets divorced due to circumstances out of their control, can that person still accept responsibility?
I think its yes and yes?
The choices presented to us are Beshert. How we respond is usually our responsibility.
Mod 80: the story? I read it about Kelm. Writers do occasionally interchange stories.
gavra_at_work: here are some of the people who learnt in Kelm (amongst many others..)
Reb Nosson Vachtfogel of Lakewood
Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky
Reb Elya Lopian
Reb Chazkel Levenstein Zecher tzadikim L’vrocho.
The OP also mentions the article about Reb Layzer Levin
If these are the Talmidim, they’re approach is the one I would believe is closer to the Kelmer approach. And there are honest books out there about them.
gavra_at_work: This “gadol” could not have learnt in th Kelmer talmud Torah. Its not a taste of Kelm at all.
Ofcourse: You’re welcome. I don’t think I even scratched the surface of Kelm
Ofcourse: It may be worthwhile to read up about Kelm. Once you get more of a picture of Kelm and its exactness, please present it to us.
Reb Yaakov Kamenetzky also learnt in Kelm. During his first week, at Krias HaTorah the gabbai called up a Yisroel for the Cohen’s aliya, assuming no Cohanim were present. Reb Yaakov pointed out that there was indeed a Cohen present. He wasn’t thanked, he was punished. Was not allowed into the Bais Medrash for a day. His crime: Looking around durring davening.
I feel the same way
Are your parents willing to help pay for med school?. I think its about 11 years until you can begin earning money. Its lots of money to some doctors. Others suffer because of malpractice insurance.
riki77, that must be so difficult for you, having a brother unfortunatly off the derech with no-one to turn to. do know this: that the reward is all so much greater with such huge difficulties.
how old are you? are you in school? what type of school are/were you in?
Both can be hurtful but in very different ways. I think getting rejected before going out is hurtful in the way we are perceived, or that our ego took a hit. If it was the first suggestion in a while that “looked” good, it can make you feel a little hopeless.
Shticky Guy: Very good. Thanks for including me, I feel honored.
Popa put it beautifully.
In the dating process, there can be a concept of beshert in a different way than we are accustomed to think.
Rabbi Miller answerd yes and yes. Hashem wanted him to have an option and make the right decision. His parents were unable to influence him since it was his test.. Hashem wants us to choose the right one, meaning: based upon what (we assume) Hashem wants us to do. We still have free will. Thats why we get schar for choosing the right [type of] person.
chayav: Did you know that skiing is a lot more dangerous than texting while driving nd has a lot more accidents proportionally? Its not even close
If their goal is to oust Ami, you can be sure, that if c”v successful their price will rise higher and service lower. No different than the established airlines selling dirt cheap tickets anytime another airline offers the same service. Then, once ousted, their price hits even higher.
At one point a cheap airline started offering decent priced tickets from NY to Pittsburg. The established companies, Continental.. lowered their tickets to $70 round trip including all taxes. Once they re-secured their route prices were higher than before.
Competition is good, for many reasons.
rabbiofberlin: That was uncalled for. Kindly, please, take the rabbi out of your moniker. Thank you. Or simply be kinder
It must feel frustrating to see people being too picky. I find it difficult to judge though, being “picky” shows a lot of seriousness in getting married- which helps avoid the “easy come easy go” attitude.
Being too picky can lead to problems. Its a balance. Best to have a rav/rebitzen or trusted and trustworthy mentor to help…
There are those who have gone into harbotzas Torah, not gotten paid said dues.. and decided to find another job on the side which helps people. True, it may be that if their bitochon was strong enough they wouldn’t need another job. One must still deal with the level they’re on.
Sacrilege. Didnt bother reading that one past the first post.
How about this one?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/proving-judaism
Sacridlge: are you calling this one?
Who was it who said: To the one who believes, there are no questions (of this sort); to the non-believer, no answer will ever suffice.
Would you trust the Beis Yosef, the auther of the Shulchan Oruch as being honest? He transcribed many conversations he had with a malach/magid in a book/sefer called Magid Maishorim. He mentions that the angel told him to learn Chovas Halvovos every day for his yiras shomayim. Is that a good enough approbation? To a believer in G-d’s Torah, yes!
(If you’re reffering to every new sefer published, then true, if the auther hasnt stood the test of time, it may be not be true.. The ones who stood the test of time…)
Sacrilege, we need more of your detective work…
Where is “oot”? Who prohibited you from driving?