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always here: B”H its working out for them
IS: I think being sensitive or even ” over-sensitive” for other peoples feelings is a beautiful thing.
The Hamodia used to print a long list of gemachs. I think they now do it in one of their weekday editions.
binahyeseira:
I strongly agree with you.
SJSinNYC:
Sometimes, its impossible to fix while in the situation. Sometimes, the partners bring out the worst in each other. …They fed off of each other’s frustration in bad ways.
Gut Voch
The chasida married, and turned her husband into a tzadik. The chosid married, and was reversed into a rosheh by his wife.
I hope I wrote it correctly. Anyone heard this and has a source?
nishtdayngesheft: OK, I understand you better now. Thanks for the explanation.
I was taken aback on the name switch, so I saw it differently. My first comment containing my two cents, did say one should walk in with their eyes fully open. I don’t think he was suggesting that people should enter marriage without thinking it through properly, as with all shidduchim. IDK, he can answer for himself, if he so chooses.
IS: I don’t think so. It seems that OP is Ashkenazic or asking for an Ashkenazi friend. A Sefardi would phraise the question the same way, after switching the order.
ZK: I’m sorry to hear that. Whats bothering you, if i may pry?
AZ: That sounds great.
AZ: Are the girls making all the contacts themselves, and then ask for the handout and deliver it themselves?? Or is the community/classmates advocating on their behalf?
When your idea was taken and repackaged to help an individual (who happens to be an olam molay) you didn’t like it, and discouraged it.
nisht: I understand you’re point about the food. But it seems as if you have some previouse bone to pick with “Chucky”. You seem to be attacking him.
About mesorah: May a girl whos family is a Tosher Chosid marry a Munkatcher chosid? What’s with mesorah? The woman accepts the husbands minhogim. And if the husband has similar minhogim to the Chidah, the Beis Yosef, the Ramban and most other Rishonim, she’ll gladly accept (if she’s ready for it emotionally).
Zeeskite: As long as you make sure it’s a pleasant spot! You’ve already warned us
SJSinNY:
Thanks for responding. I agree with you that sometimes marriages stop functioning, requiring further action. However, if a party is not blameless, they’ll be much better off if they fix themselves prior to divorcing, even if they feel it’ll never suffice, due to the other spouses.. Divorcing prior to doing everything a person can is ill-advised and sounds irrisponsible.
If they do opt for the divorce, it may very well be that irrisponsibily that propels the next one, R”L. Oh, and some of that “abuse-phobia” is so part of society, that it may very well be the story of the first time. And they fix their load prior to divorcing, who says they’ll ever need luggage, maybe they won’t end indivorce!
Ah, finally, now we have all the cool and not boring threads back 😉
I know several “mixed” families who seem very happy and content. Its probably dependant upon a lot of variables, though.
What type of Ashkenazic person is the Ashkenazi? (Yekke, Hungarian, Belzer Chosid, Litvak, Yerushalmi etc etc)
What type of Sephardic person is the Sephardi? (Spanish, Yemenite, Persian, Syrian, South American etc etc)
What type of educational culture did each party grow up in?
Both sides would have to be open and accepting (and certainly not condescending) of the cultural differences. Once you have that, as well as an understanding of differences, why not (if personalities, life-goals and Hashkofas line up)?
As with all things in shidduchim, its good to have a Rebbe/Rebbitzen/Rov/Competent mentor who can direct. Hatzlocha
WOWOWOWO! Wheres the tolerance?!?! Live and let live!!!!!
Grandmaster: that’s when she hasn’t pick her standard-of’iving from “most” people
Since you’re curious, did you ask them?? Who are they anyhow, a different moslom sect?
SJSinNYC: No, don’t understand how what you wroteyesterday adds up. If people are meant to be married (as the creation of man and woman makes clear), then why is there a higher divorce rate for second marriages higher than for fist marriages, if the half or even the majority of divorcees are faultless? The divorce rate should drop in half, not become higher.
Bochurim don’t pay to learn. The Yeshiva asks parents to help cover the costs of the institution that’s helping the parents fulfil their job of teaching their son Torah, providing him food, board, and a heated/air conditioned building etc etc. At a fundraiser for a Yeshiva I once attended, the R”Y said tuition only covers about a third of their budget.
A kolel doesn’t pay their members to learn. The same way they provide a building etc for them to learn in, so too do they look to provide for their living expenses. Very different perspective, while it’s the same Torah.
oomis1105:
You’ve said this many times, it’s the kolel people who are the cause of divorce. Time and again. So please, why do MO people get divorced (I heard a speech from a principal in a MO machmir school, he said about 20% of his student body were from divorced homes)? Are all these divorces truly the only answer?
Why don’t kolel people have this divorce rate (though they do have a divorce rate that seems way too high)
s2021: Very true. Both have to work on the marriage. A woman placing a husband reading a bok for women, and showing his wife what she is doing wrong, won’t work. A woman placing a shalom bais article in their husbands sidur, won’t work.
Each has to improve themselves. (Of course spouses should seek the spirtual best for thei spouse, but out of care and love of the spouse.
Mazel tov
May you have much nachas
Ofcourse: How dare you suggest anything other than AZ’s ideas/research will work. And even if it will work for an individual, we must attack them and discourage them, since its not an age-gap solution.
AZ:
Sometimes though, your point comes across a little sharp, or very sharp. Its probably the same drive that brings you to help so many people with barley a thank you (and probably many many disparaging remarks). But it does come across a little sharp, or very sharp.
(Just think of Penina and Chana.)
Snow: What I gather from AZ, may I make a suggestion. Hopefully you can find an honest an sincere shadchan (as most of them are) who will work for you, not voluntarily or optional basis, but almost as an employee. Then have them also contact other shadchonim etc, and tell them that quality suggestions (that produce x amount of dates etc) will be compensated. Your advocate as well should get something, say $25 additional (or as you see fit) for having made the contact to the other shadchan who produced these dates.
Truth is, this hired shadchan may even be a responsible friend or relative. But they get paid a nice fee, just for investing time, and they will now be able to move other shadchonim on your behalf (as $$$$$ does talk).
Just a thought based upon your idea, mixed in with the presented research. May you find your zivug soon
SJSinNYC:
Most of the divorces I know were for good, valid reasons.
Many 2nd marriages fail because the person remarrying didn’t address the issues with the first marriage. Those issues don’t go away overnight.
I don’t get it. If the divorces were for good valid reasons, that means that that woman (usually were trapped, as you put it- or man..) did not do any wrong in their marriage. It was the “other’ spouse. They had nothing to improve, other than finding Mr./Ms. Perfect.
And if they need to address it in order to make the second marriage work, why not address it prior to the divorce and make the first marriage work?
HaLeiVi: Please translate the Gemora here. The Gemora does not say that the Mizbeach is crying for her. Not at all.
My point was, this consideration is one that a man must take into account. A woman should take really contemplate the other Gemora, about her being unable to be “koreth brith”.
Actually, average scores on standardized tests have risen dramatically over the past 80 years or so.
If you look at the regents now, they have really been downgraded. Additionally, if too many students in one class fail, or get lower marks, they automatically pass many and upgrade scores (I believe its called a learning-curve scale. Not sure the name).
So while scores may be improving, “knowledge” certainly is not. I’m only talking about the regents. I wonder if its an indicator to other things as well, and studies have been slanted in a certain direction, as they are done at times.
BasYisroel94: Ask a rov or your teacher.
I think Reb Moshe paskens strongly in favor of nusach Ashkenaz, the Divrei Chaim in favor of Nusach Sefard and the Chabadskers in favor of Nusach “Ari” (based upon the teachings of the Ari Z”L, like all the other Nusach Seforad versions of the Chasidim. Only difference is in name).
use the siddur as a guide, but really say the nusach that I ‘know’ by changing words here and there,
AZ: Why does it seem that every time someone comes up with a solution or suggestion for themselves, that you seek to attack it?
Do you have a monopoly over how singles may be helped?
I came across a previous thread on this site.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shidduch-world#post-113429
Rebyid40:
There are many couples who are willing to work. On trying to get along but whose personalities are just so different that they cannot work out their differences.
So how did they ever get married in the first place? How did they ever have children?
(I think Rabbi Salamon’s parenting book discusses this idea at legnth)
I cannot fathom why somone would think that its beneficial for children to grow up in an envronment of stress and discord.
And what exactly is divorced life for the kids, stress-free and harmonious? Think again. Especially based upon so many divorces in our community with ugly custody battles. The kids are used as pawns.
(Whenever I see undeniably disgusting behaviors during the divorce process, I do become judgmental. I will automatically assume that the party playing the silly games was at fault for the dissolution of the marriage. And when both sides do it, I judge them both for being at fault. If we would all do it, maybe divorces would be more civil.)
Why do both parties have to be miserable for 50-f0 years?? If they both remarry they can have many happy years together wih their new spouses…
“Can” and reality don’t match on this one. The exact numbers have been cited here several times. Second marriages have huge increase in divorce rate from first marriages.
So unless there is truly a compelling reason, its more probable for that second time to fail. The grass aint greener on the other side.
Why do people assume it is the standards of divorce which changed? Maybe it is marriage which changed.
Does it make sense for people to consider divorce without ever seeking to improve their marriage? Do you disagree with my assumption, or do you think all those who do remain married use marriage counselors?
HaLeiVi: it means about him, about his actions
You are very sweet. What is it I said? Where is the disagreement?
I think the reason is, that prior to the big salary, benefits and pension, it was only idealistic people who taught. Teaching was their primary objective, money secondary. Now its reversed. Jeans and leggings are normal school cloths for teachers.
Also look at the student achievement. The increased salaries have produced worth scholastic achievement.
The Governor. Where are their salaries and huge benefits going to come from?
HaLeiVi:
Google tells me its in Gitten 90B. The loshon seems to suggest him. That would be the difference between “aishes neurov”. I may be wrong
Based upon a closed thread I’d add: make sure he has a rebbe who he listens to.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chasidish-baal-teshuva
popa_bar_abba:
We’re not judging those who’ve already divorced, or any specific divorce. We’re discussing those who are married. Everyone should be aware, that despite what Western culture teaches us, divorce aint so full of bliss.
Do you disagree?
I posted a link a couple of weeks ago on a relevant thread, that was deleted (I guess because of the link?) to an article that appeared in the JP. The writer claimed that fifty percent of those who go for marriage counseling get divorced.
I would Assume that many married couples never go for counseling. Based upon this assumption, many people who get divorced never even bothered to try and save their marriage through counseling!
What does that say, the divorces were absolutely necessary?
Seriously? I think you exaggerate when you say, “never ever have the depth…” Clearly if the couple is divorcing, there is a basic LACK of depth or satisfaction at least on one spouse’s part.
It’s not an exaggeration. I said can = potential. “Ain isha koreth brith ela l’baalah horishona”.
Correct. Divorce for the right reason is permitted, and a Parsha in the Torah, meant to be used, not abused.
The reality is though, that the vast majority of divorces are unnecessary, especially when children are involved.
It has to be important enough for the Mizbeach to cry (for the husband).
It has to be worthwhile that even if she remarries, it can never ever have the depth and satisfaction that a first marriage can have (for the wife, since she’s not “koreth brith” to a second husband)
Kids suffer terribly
It’s serious business.
s2021: Thank you for sharing more. I’m glad you’re not suffering. I’m sorry you’re going through these difficulties.
May I make a point? I’ve seen the following by me and by others. Hashem made us strong, that we can sometimes neglect eating properly and sleeping proper hours (on a schedule..). If we neglect, we often still function.
Under regular circumstances, we can very often deal with the most difficult emotional situations. It’s not easy, but we do.
However, if I’m not eating or sleeping properly (by me, they usually go together), the emotions then really become hard. I’ve already streched myself.
It becomes very very very important to sleep and eat properly, then I can deal with all else. I’ve seen the same by many other people as well.
AZ:
Why is it “hysterical”? The shadchonim you mentioned put it all that time, true. But they invest it as it comes up… Snow is looking for someone to spend a let of tim on Snow! Not just as they come up (with hard work). And they’re willing to pay for it.
Sounds like a very fair and serious request
msseker: Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Never doing Mitzvos is not better. Aveiros do NOT erase Mitzvos. Do you have any idea about the value of one Mitzvah? One Omain? These things are eternal. I don’t have the time or the Gemora’s here, but there are some amazing stories about this.
However, you make a very valid point. When you bring one to appreciate a Torah lifestyle (and olam haboh), you still have a responsibility to help them throuout. Actually a big responsibility.
DB: I don’t think that quote is from Rav Shach. Rav Shach wrote a letter where he says that chabad back in Earope was full of “yeraim…”, and he had respect for chabad chasiddus. He was opposed to the new thing (in a very big way, that he felt avodah zorah was existent) to which others probably said that line
no problem finding shidduchim amongs other Lubavitch B’T’s
That’s exactly it. They’re not accepted as part off the “reall” thing. It dosent seem as if the person the OP is talking about is seeking a new “BT” culturer. In other chasidessen they’ll at least be completly accepted, just shiduchim when their liniage is researched, will be difficult.
In the Yeshivish world I can tell you of two cases I’m personally familiar with. One boy who became Frum at 15.. married a Rosh Yeshivas daughter (and that RY carries a world famous family name). Another family, where the parents became Frum once married, their daughter married a RY’s son. I know both cases from close by
smartcookie: Chasidim are very insistent on yichus when it comes to shidduchim. Unless joining a chasidishe kehilah that has baalei teshuvah (such as Rabbi Weinbergers community, Boston in Boston etc), its something to look into. Differing backgrounds can really be challenged at the shidduchim stage in chasidishe circles.
The old line always was, Chasidim look for yichis in a shidduch and hidur in an Esrug, while Yeshivish people seek hidur in a shidduch and yichus in an Esrug (that other fruits havnt been mixed in etc) .
I’ll go along with all the guys (and many gals) here, thats its extremely important for a man to find his wife attractive.
Now consider this. Esther had a green complexion! Esther had been previously married (in fact she still was.. to Mordechai), and was “touched”. Esther was seventy five years old!
The Gemora (or Rashi) says that Hashem placed chein on her, which is what made her attractive- despite her age, despite her green completion, despite not being a besulah. I believe that the Gemora also says that if one is liked above, Hashem places that “chut shel chesed” upon them.
So as many said, a person can find a spouse/potential spouse very attractive , while the rest of world wont see what they see. It can be due to many things, most importantly, that Hashem makes them attractive to each other!
you are bound to show some hair in that small area above/in front of your ear..
I don’t remember (although I just went through it) but I think the little that falls out is permitted according to the Chofetz Chaim in the same sefer.