Truehonesty

There really is little more to add to the points raised. I have a young married friend who told me that he finds it awkward when his wife’s brother comes for a Shabbos meal with his wife. His brother-in-law is a very quiet guy whilst his wife is much more sociable and outgoing. He himself is also outgoing and his wife quieter. It usually ends up that he chats and laughs with his sister-in-law and the brother and sister smile quietly along. On occasion, the sister-in-law even prods her husband to say more and join in more…. He feels very uncomfortable about it. Anyone got advice?

Rabbiofberlin: Thank you! I will indeed try to tone down my rhetoric in the future.

Actually it is a shame that they closed the hashkafa thread as I was waiting to hear both your’s and cantoresq’s answers to the points raised. I think notpashut’s last post forced the closure. I dont kid myself that I have managed to persuade either of you two to change your opinions but maybe you now understand our side a little better (I do see where you are coming from although I still think you are wrong).

Cantoresq: Please elaborate! Thank you for your compliments but I feel you are being unjust in playing down my points as faith and “absurd”. I am wondering if you are not falling down the slope too of brushing off valid proofs so as to save yourself from accepting the truth!! I have never heard of Soren Abaye Kirkegaard so please explain what that is all about. I think I have brought fair solid proof to my position from Chazal in the various posts including those addressed to Rabbiofberlin and you have not even attempted to address them. Your claim “that people (should) realize the side of non- acceptance of Da’as Torah is grounded in legitimate Jewish doctrine” has NOT been shown at all but rather the opposite and until you will clearly address these issues, I think that we can conclude that non-acceptance of daas Torah is based on personal negative feelings against certain rabbinical figures who have erred (and will indeed have to pay the price of their errors in the World-to-come). I once heard from a less known adom godol (in my opinion anyway) who also laments the “wickedness” of certain public rabbinical personalities that the Chazon Ish writes (I dont know where) that sometimes HaShem will give these Roshei Yeshivos/Dayanim/Rebbes all the veneration and kavod they want in this world to pay off any zechusim that they may have earned so that in gehinom they will receive pure hell!! I can hardly accept that Mr Kirkegaard (whoever he may be) is legitimate Jewish doctrine.

Rabbofberlin: Again I ask you mechila for upsetting you.

YWN Moderator 72: I too believe that there is lots of new ideas and points being raised in this thread so please allow us to continue. (Sorry for the long posts but the subject requires long detailed responses!)

Cantoresq: Due to the time difference in Israel, I could not wait for your response but I will try to clarify my position now.

“CESQ: Because in the system of Da’as Torah, there is only one right answer to any problem.”

Where do you derive that from? As I explained earlier, there is only ONE OUTCOME that G-d will ensure happens whatever we do, right or wrong, but that doesn’t mean that G-d necessarily wants us to work towards that end. Continuing our example of the elections in Yerushalayim – I do NOT mean to try and say I know G-d’s will here or that other possibilities cannot apply etc., I just am using it as an example and as a possible scenario to explain my point – Say HaShem wants to “punish” the chareidim and have a non-orthodox Mayor who will cause problems for them so He will ensure that Barkat will win. This can be achieved in many ways, either causing more chilonim to vote or having an unpopular chareidi candidate or 1001 other options or even different combinations of them. It does NOT follow from this that HaShem wants us chareidim to work for Barkat’s election, He will ensure his victory but it can still be considered a chilul HaShem for a chareidi to vote for Barkat – the chiloni, against Porush – the shomer Shabbos. The results are in HaShem’s capable hands, our duty is to live our lives al Kiddush HaShem. Even if a novi would come and tell us that Barkat will win, we would still have to vote Porush lekadesh Shem Shomayim. One of the “gabboim” of Rav Eliashiv shlita told me recently that the morning following the elections he told the Rov that Porush lost. Rav Eliashiv ignored him, so he tried again unsuccessfully to get an answer until he asked him directly what does the Rov have to say about it. Rav Eliashiv told him that from the beginning he had no misconceptions that Porush would win, he didn’t stand a chance. The only reason he called to vote Porush was lekadesh Shem Shomayim. It was obvious to him that Porush would lose.

Therefore it is no contradiction in daas Torah to have one Godol calling to vote Barkat and another Porush, as daas Torah is NOT assuring that G-d’s wishes will happen, that is in G-d’s own capable hands, but daas Torah is deciding what is the correct thing to do lekadesh Shem Shomayim. HaShem wanted us to vote Porush to be mekadesh Shem Shomayim even though He was ensuring that Porush will lose. Continuing further in this hypothetical explanation, in order to achieve a larger victory to Barkat, G-d decided to arrange the machlokes with Ger and to cause the Gerrer Rebbe to feel that a vote to Porush is a chilul HaShem and to act accordingly. This does not mean that had the relevant parties made peace and not fought, then Porush would have won. No, G-d would have used another method to arrange Barkat’s victory.

This idea is echoed in Yosef’s words to his brothers (?????? ??,?-?) that although they did wrong by selling him, G-d used their error to complete the necessary fulfillment of His will ie providing the sustenance for Yacov and his family during the famine and arranging for Yacov to go down to Mitzrayim. Look in the Midrash (?????? ??? ??,?) that Yacov was supposed to be brought to Mitzrayim in chains but HaShem used the sale of Yoseph as a means to ease the difficulty. So indeed they did wrong but the OUTCOME is the same. Had they not sold Yoseph, the same result would have been achieved in other ways. Were they punished for selling Yoseph?- Yes, Reb Elchonon Wasserman ztl Hyd writes (I think in ????? ??????) that all the blood libels were a direct punishment for the sale of Yosef, others add the ???? ????? ????? too. So we see clearly how G-d’s will is achieved however we act, our aim is NOT to help G-d sort out His problems but to do the right thing and leave G-d to sort Himself out. It can therefore be correct for us to act against the Divine Outcome but to do Divine Will for us and even receive rewards for it. It can therefore follow that group A are supposed to do one thing according to Divine will and group B to do the opposite also according to Divine will. Your assumption that daas Torah must have one answer is based on your assumption that daas Torah is Divine Outcome, that is incorrect.

I think that answers the first few of your points. (About the wordings of these daas Torah’s – well I think that is churlish as the Rabbis dont write them, the askonim do. You should be mature enough to understand that and appreciate that the Rabbonim are calling on you to vote A because that is the right thing for you to do NOT because G-d wants A to win!)

Concerning Tomor, Chazal tell us (Rashi 39,1) that Tomor acted leshem Shomayim and Rashi on the Midrash (85,2) says clearly that her intention was to have the future Kings of Yisroel. Furthermore chazal learn from Tomor that she remained silent and didnt embarrass Yehuda (she sent the stick as a way of informing Yehuda only, Yehuda could have remained silent too and noone would have known and she would have been burnt) that “Better to throw oneself into a furnace than embarrass someone publicly” (Sotah 10b). We see the need to do the right thing even at the expense of losing ones life and the future of clal Yisroel. It is HaShem’s problem to sort out the OUTCOME not ours. In the same Rashi (39,1) he compares Tomor to the wife of Potifar who knew too that she was supposed to have children from Yosef and started out leshem Shomayim but when Yosef refused she did the wrong thing and had him thrown into prison. She lost out but the outcome was the same as Yosef married her daughter. (??? ???? ??? ?? ?????).

Your point of choice of Godol, I dont understand your question. So what if the Godol decides to your detriment. Generally, one doesnt choose a Godol by his opinion on a particular subject, detriment or otherwise. The ??? ?? ?? comes before the questions you have, you dont have questions and each time look for a Godol to conveniently answer what you want. Excuse me if I have misunderstood you but I just dont follow your question.

I think that your next comments about the Spinka Rebbe and others show your true problem. Firstly, believe me I feel the same pain and anger as you at these stories and my heart breaks at the huge chillul HaShem involved each time. However, your almost hysterical monologue convinces me that this is your real reason why you cannot be comfortable with following daas Torah. All the rest is built on this base, the “proofs” etc came afterwards not before. The answer to the problem is included in my previous comment directed to “Rabbiofberlin” with the moshol of the poor farmer whose cow died. G-d will not allow us innocent trusting believers to be led astray by evil rabbinical leaders. He will ensure that they will answer correctly to save us though they will receive their just “rewards” for their actions as well as for daring to imitate being the King’s true servant.

Continuing to the Conservatives and Reforms, they are evildoers (deserters) and do not follow G-d’s will for them to be doing. This does NOT contradict the fact that G-d will use their errors to further His OUTCOME as I explained earlier with the example of using Yosef’s sale to bring Yacov down to Mitzrayim. I do not see the contradiction as you claim.

Your contention that “garbage in, garbage out” is an old problem and again I believe that G-d plays his cards exactly here. Just like in shidduchim when people make enquires about others and are told certain things, everyone calls it hashgacha protis how the right people hear the right things and the wrong ones the bad things etc. so too here, G-d controlls what He wants the Godol to hear (this does not exclude the Godol from doing his homework!!) and his reaction will be in accordance. This too is G-d’s will and perhaps this is our nisayon (maybe the Godol’s too to publicly admit his mistake when made aware of the true facts!!) to continue in our trust even after a mistake.

Dear Cantoresq, I believe I have answered here your three main points but I would welcome any further discussion (assuming that YWN Moderators will allow it). I too am enjoying this intelligent discussion…

cantoresq: Your point that all Gedolim must agree if that is Divine will is ludicrous. In the same way that there can be machlokes in halacha which even you agree is under the auspicies of the Rabbis, because ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? so too in matters of hashkafa and secular subjects. The example you gave is who to vote for President, well living in Israel I will adapt it to recent Israeli politics. When the Gerrer Rebbe called to vote for N.B. in the elections in Yerushalayim then it was correct for all Gerrer chassidim to do just that and this is Divine will for THEM. When other Rabbonim said to vote for M.P. then it is essential for their followers to vote M.P. and this is daas Torah for THEM. Why can it not be rotzoin HaShem for that to happen? Why does it have to be that someone is wrong if they disagree? Do you not believe that all parties will receive schar for their votes even if they are different? Equally a Gerrer who voted M.P. or a litvack who voted N.B. will be liable in shomayim for their actions. Indeed an act by Reuvain can be considered a Kiddush HaShem whilst Shimon doing the same thing will be doing a chilul HaShem.

There is indeed a point of ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? and rulings can be based on inaccuracies. The Gedolim that I have been zoche to be acquainted with, ALWAYS double/triple/quadruple check up on their information. (I have personally been asked on various occasions to check out facts on behalf of Rabbonim) To base yourself on such excuses is just that, an excuse to disregard the Rabbonim and to follow your own yetzer Hara to do what you want….

I have VERY much enjoyed following this thread and I will add my opinion too…

Firstly, I am of pure yekke lineage, but was brought up more litvish as is usual in todays world.

The “malzeit” minhag is actually a shortened version of “gezaigtne malzeit” (or something like that) which basically translates to “until the next meal”, something more understandable as a sign-off after a meal.

Dear Rabbiofberlin, yet again you have found your kindred spirits or twin brothers as you continue to insist that daas Torah is non-existent. We have been through this line before and you too admitted then (as Cantoresq has in this thread too) that you envy the belief of the true believers in daas Torah. Your assertion that this is a new phenomana in Am Yisroel is ludicrous. Of course there are no seforim written with all the daas Torah of previous generations as unlike Halacha which is fixed, daas Torah changes with every slight variation in the story and even if not, what may be correct for one generation is not necessarily true for another time. However, look at all the Kol Koreh’s that the Chofetz Chaim wrote (as printed in Ma’amorim Umichtovim Mibaal HaChofetz Chaim) for an idea of what was usual in yesteryear. Perhaps the Gedolim’s fight against translating the Torah into German by Mendelsohn was also meddling in your opinion as there is no issur or halachic issues involved (even Artscroll do it nowadays!). Well maybe had you lived then and had your opinions then too, you may have turned out a reform rabbi (of Berlin too). The need to write down daas Torah for the future is unnecessary and even dangerous and therefore was not done in previous generations but that does not mean that clal Yisroel didnt follow daas Torah nor that the Gedolim didnt involve themselves in non-halachic issues.

As we have mentioned before, if you would only use equal levels of your intelligence to try to understand the holy words of our Gedolim as you seem to use to try to belittle and refute them, your life would improve dramatically!!

I wish all of us the fulfillment of the words of the Novi “????? ???? ??? ?? ???”.

I live in EY, in Yerushalayim Ir Hakodesh.

I will do so on condition he stays Senator Obama and not chas veshalom President Obama

How very very sad!

I live in the Holy Land and perhaps I am naive but I think that BH BH BH the situation here is MUCH better. There are various reasons: 1) Most schools take government assistance and then all legal staff have their wages regulated by the Education Ministry. The extra “illegal” limudei kodesh teachers or rebbis usually get paid similar salaries though without the perks of pensions etc. 2) All schools insist on receiving 12 monthly checks (or a signed Direct Debit form) before the beginning of the school year to cover the tuition fees. This usually means that the hanhola know what their budget is for the year and make promises accordingly. 3) In the schools that my kids attend, there is a certain unwritten relationship between all the rebbis or teachers that all the staff would rebel against the hanhola if they would dare to treat one of them so badly. No principal can survive a mutiny from all his teachers and his school will collapse (and his cash-cow would die!). They will back down so quickly when they see 15 rebbis including their prize mechanchim taking a stand and refusing to cooperate with the principal on any matters until this rebbi receives what is due to him. Can this not happen in the USA?