TRUEBT

YK – I agree with you, but we don’t have any facts to back us up. Someone with money would need to fund a survey.

MarbehShalom – I agree with you. However:

The overwhelming majority of BT boys marry BT girls. And there are more BT girls than BT boys. Creating additional BT boys would probably help BT girls more than the Beis Yaakov girls Mr. Rechnitz discussed in the article. (But feel free to make large donations to BT yeshivas anyways! 🙂

A few might show up at those yeshivas you mentioned, and a fraction of those might marry BY girls, but I don’t think you’re going to get the kind of numbers you need to really make a difference in the Shidduch Crisis.

The world is very different now than it was then. Ohr Sameach has Wi-fi. Beis Ya’akov girls want a much higher standard of frumkeit than in the old days.

I agree with DaasYochid – more qualified Shadchanim would help.

I think that what “Ofcourse” is suggesting is that the wealthy people pay for full-time, professional Shadchanim. Marriage counselors make around $80,000 per year. However to be a licensed marriage counselor means you need to have gone to graduate school to learn about recognizing and treating all kinds of mental illness. Of course, besides training, experience is necessary too. I doubt that there are enough frum people with those qualifications to be hired to do this job even if the wealthy people could be convinced to pay for them.

The advantage of requiring that Shadchanim be marriage counselors is quite simple. The Shadchan would meet with the couple before/after dates and discuss what went wrong, what went right and would help them build (or destroy) the relationship. This would continue on during the whole dating process and for a few months after the marriage to make sure that little problems get taken care of before they become big problems. The marriage counselor could also intervene and get a divorce if there are “surprises” (addictions or whatever). This would be very expensive, but it would almost guarantee marriages that start out with a positive, healthy relationship.

Perhaps my standards are too high? As the standards are lowered, the rate of successful marriages will go down too. At some point during the process of lowering the standards, you wind up with Shadchanim who are bored housewives and whose motivation is something other than money.

DaasYochid, please define what you mean by qualified.

The Aish Hatorah website that pou_bear links to says the following.

Pray for the safety of our soldiers, for the protection of every Jew in Israel, and for the wisdom of our political and military leaders.

Support the I.D.F. by sending goodies, care packages, and letters of support. http://www.thankisraelisoldiers.org/

Undertake mitzvot, good deeds, donations to charity, and Torah learning in the merit of the people of Israel. Judaism teaches that every mitzvah generates merit, and just as you can send your money to wherever you choose, you can send your merit to wherever you choose.”

Of course, all that is true.

However, there is one more thing. Chazal say that Achdus leads to military victory. If there was a way to channel the desire for revenge, the desire to help, etc. into Achdus somehow, it could lead to an actual victory (= destruction of Hamas) rather than “quiet for quiet.”

In one word: No,

the goyim don’t say he converted. Here’s what we’ve got to go on:

Aristotle was reported by Chazal to have said: “I do not deny the revelation of the Jews, seeing that I am not acquainted with it; I am occupied with human knowledge only and not with divine” (Judah ha-Levi, “Cuzari,” iv. 13; v. 14).

” Of Aristotle himself Josephus has preserved (“Contra Apionem,” i. 22) a very interesting passage from the writings of Clearchus, the pupil of Aristotle, the authenticity of which is maintained by such authorities as Lobeck, Bernays, von Gutschmid (“Kleine Schriften,” iv. 578), and Theo. Reinach (“Textes d’Auteurs Grecs et Romains Relatifs au Judaisme,” 1895, pp. 10-12). This passage, prefaced by the remark of Josephus, is as follows:

FRAGMENT OF CLEARCHUS.

[Palestine]. These Jews are derived from the philosophers of India. In India the philosophers call themselves Kalani, and in Syria Jews, taking their name from the country they inhabit, which is Judea; the name of their capital is rather difficult to pronounce: they call it Jerusalem. Now this man, who had been the guest of many people, had come down from the highland to the seashore [Pergamus]. He was a Greek not only in language, but in soul; so much so that, when we happened to be in Asia in about the same places whither he came, he conversed with us and with other persons of learning in order to test our wisdom. And as he had had intercourse with a large number of sages, he imparted to us more knowledge of his own.”

In other words, Aristotle’s student, Clearchus, says that this Jewish philosopher was Greek “in soul”; or as we say nowadays “Soul Brothers”. This fragment is all that exists as far as goyische sources go. All it really proves is that Aristotle had (at least) one Jewish friend. “Being the guest of many people” (who were probably goyim) seems like a hint that this Jew didn’t keep kosher. Of course, it could be that being a guest didn’t involve eating, or maybe they got him kosher food.

The goyim believe the conversion of Aristotle to Judaism is an “urban legend”. My guess is that the claims were made in the middle ages in response to the Rambam and other Rabbanim praising Aristotle.

So where did the urban legend come from?

The following letter first appeared written in Hebrew. It does not appear to be a translation. The source does not say whether the original was written in Ancient Greek or Aramaic. Aristotle writing a letter to Alexander the Great in any other language is very problematic. It’s also very problematic to say that a Jew discovered this letter over a thousand years after it was written, translated it, and could never come up with the original. But here it is:

Aristotle: Born 384 -322 B.C.

Birth: Chalcidice, Greece. Death: Chalcis, Greece.

When the great philosopher Aristotle was old, he sent the following letter to his student, Alexander the Great:

All my life I delved into philosophy, to explain all natural phenomena in a logical manner. I wrote many books on these subjects. Finally, in the twilight of my life, I had the opportunity to engage in a conversation with a Jewish sage. It did not take me long, to recognize his great wisdom; and he led me to understand, how great is the Torah, that was given on Mount Sinai.

He taught me the inner depth of the Torah, providing me with many brilliant insights based on its teachings. I realized how foolish I had been for not realizing, how G-d can manipulate the laws of nature; and that much of what happens in the world, is directed by G-d.

Realizing all this, I decided to devote myself to exploring the wisdom of the Torah. It did not take me long to realize, that the Torah is based on true foundations, while the axioms of philosophy are purely arbitrary.

__________

Therefore, my dear student Alexander, if I had the power to collect all the books I have written, I would burn them. I would be embarrassed for any of them to survive. However, I realize that I do not have this power; my books have already been published, and have spread all over the world. I also realize, that I will receive Divine punishment, for having written such misleading books.

Therefore, my son, Alexander, I am writing this letter to tell you, that the great majority of my theories regarding natural law, are false. While nature does exist, G-d is the Lord of the universe, and He directs all things as He sees fit. I am telling everyone openly, that they should not waste time with my books. They should not look at them, or even touch them with their hands. It is sinful to waste time, on the false theories that I have espoused.

I feel, that I have saved my soul by admitting my error; I hope that I will not be held guilty for the past, since I acted out of ignorance. But now I have revealed to the public that I was mistaken, and that my heart aches for the time I have wasted, on my foolish theories. Those who waste time on my books therefore, will deserve to be punished.

The Jewish scholar with whom I spoke, showed me the book of Proverbs (Mishley), written by King Solomon, one of the greatest geniuses of all times. The scholar showed me, that in many places, King Solomon warned against wasting time on philosophical speculation.

___________

I feel sorry for my eyes for what they have seen, and my ears for what they have heard. I feel sorry for my body, for wasting its strength on such detrimental studies.

I know that you praise me, and tell me, that I am famous all over the world because of the books I have written. People speak very highly of me. But I wish I were dead, because of the misleading books that I have spread all over the world.

People who devote themselves to the Torah, will earn eternal life; while those who devote themselves to my books, will earn the grave. But I am prepared to accept upon myself, the punishment of them all.

____________

I did not write to you earlier, because I was afraid that you would be angry with me, and perhaps even harm me. But now, I have made up my mind to tell you the truth. I know, that by the time you receive this letter, I will already be dead and buried, because I realize that my end is near.

Your teacher,

Aristotle

_______________________

Gedaliah ibn Ya?yah, Shalshelet ha-?abbala, ed. Warsaw, 1889, pp. 139, 140, under the heading of ?akme Yawan;

From Wikipedia:

“The value of this work is, however, lessened considerably by the fact that the writer has included many oral narratives which he gathered partly in his home, partly in Salonica and Alexandria, and that he often lacks the ability to distinguish truth from fiction. For these reasons the book has been called “The Chain of Lies”; but Loeb has proved that it is more accurate than many have supposed it to be. The Shalshelet ha-?abbalah was published at Venice, 1587; Cracow, 1596; Amsterdam, 1697; Zolkiev, 1802, 1804; Polonnoye, 1814; and Lemberg, 1862.”

Just a thought to ponder: The goyim say that the 70 years of exile were from 606 when Daniel was taken to Babylon and 536 when Cyrus decreed something or other that I forgot. It could easily have been 165 more years before Chazal were willing to call the Temple rebuilt. In order to resolve the issue at hand, we would probably need a class that would last several months. Without going into all the details of who says what, perhaps we can agree to disagree and go to sleep?

Sam2 –

It certainly is not awful. I did not say (or imply) that Hashem’s knowledge is limited. Just because the analogy breaks down, does not make it Kefira. No analogy can be True. In the final analysis, it is only an analogy. The purpose of the analogy is grasp two aspects of Bechira in a simple,quick way.

What you are failing to see is that humans are limited. Therefore we need to use analogies to compare something we don’t know to something else that we do. The question rationalfrummie is asking is something along the lines of “I can’t motivate myself to make hishtadlus if everything is pre-determined.” I think it is a mitzva to help him with the chess analogy. The Torah itself uses analogies such as when it talks about Hashem’s “Hand”. As a result, there are people (Mormons) who believe Hashem is physical. Does it hurt more than it helps? Apparently, Hashem doesn’t think so.

If you want the Truth, then you are out of luck because you are running up against the limits of human capacity. That is (part of) what the 3-D chess analogy is used for. In order to understand the Truth, you must understand a world where movement can occur in 4 dimensions. (The fourth dimension is time.) This can only be understood by a human by extrapolating the human experience in 3 dimensions to the Olamos HaElyonim which have 4 dimensions. To grasp how difficult this is, try to extrapolate from a 2 dimensional chess board to a 3 dimensional chess board. In 2 dimensions the pieces are designed to look the same from either side of the board. Does this mean that 3-D chess pieces must look the same from all six viewpoints? If so, what are their shapes? Would each major piece be protected by 5 pawns (Each pawn protecting from one of the other players) – or would the pawn be shaped like a half bagel and cover 5 squares? Is it O.K. for 5 players to form an alliance to defeat the sixth player?

Basically, the 3-D analogy shows that using extrapolation we can’t get an accurate picture when done from 2D to 3D, and therefore it’s logical to assume that it doesn’t work from 3D to 4D either. The Truth is unavailable to us about Free will. We CAN understand enough to be motivated to play the “game” of life according to the rules that Hashem has given us by making a proper hishtadlus.

For instance, rationalfrummie’s question about Rosh Hashanna is answered by the concept of Hashem’s will being conditional. The Gezeira is not you will get z dollars. The gezeira is if you do x mitzvos, you get y dollars. But if you do x/2 mitzvos, then you will get y/3 dollars. (Hopefully everybody understands by now that this is an analogy and the Truth of what is in the Gezeira can not be understood by humans.)

I think I can improve on the Pizza analogy. Here is the concept behind the pizza analogy:

“There are many different paths to the future. Hashem knows where we will end up and which path we will take. We don’t know where we will end up. We may deviate from the correct path for us and end up with a different future. Does this make sense? “

A better analogy might be playing chess against a grandmaster. You can move the pieces any way you chose, but the outcome is known in advance. (You are going to lose.)

If we make the game more complicated to reflect the reality of how complex our world is, then the answer becomes clearer.

Now imagine that you are playing three dimensional chess with a cube shaped chess “board”. Imagine further that since there are six sides to this chess “board”, you are playing against 5 other people – each of them with their own set of pieces. Most humans would not be able to see one move ahead. Imagine that one of the players can analyze the position of each player and see the consequences of all players moves and counter-moves five moves ahead. That player is going to decide the outcome, even though each of the other five players is free to move his pieces any way he chooses.

I have found that most people find this analogy satisfying enough to allow them to move on. I hope it does the same for you, RationalFrummie.

Sorry that you feel you are being bashed. I am not going to bash you. I went through the same thing. Let’s start with a BT joke.

A BT goes to an Orthodox Rabbi and asks, “Do I need to say Hallel on Thanksgiving?” The Rabbi asks, “What’s Thanksgiving?” So the BT realizes that this Rabbi isn’t going to be able to posken this Shayla, so the BT goes back to the reform Rabbi he grew up with and asks her, “Do I need to say Hallel on Thanksgiving?” She says, “What’s Hallel?” (Hope that makes you feel a little better.)

Oomis made a good point, and asked a good question. Let me try to answer it.

The first principle of doing Tshuva is that it takes time. You can’t go from dancing in clubs one week to not listening to goyishe music the next. I met people who tried it, and a week after they stopped listening to the goyishe music, they were back in the clubs dancing. So the question is, “how long should it take me?” and the answer is it varies from person to person and from hashkafa to hashkafa. In other words, the first GOAL is to acknowledge that listening to the rap music is bad for your neshama. The second GOAL is to start listening less or going cold turkey or whatever works. and guess what’s going to happen after that? You’re going to get really upset about something one day and you’re going to start listening to it again. It’s a battle you will need to fight your whole life. I asked one of my Rebbeim about this once and he told me that as long as you are doing you’re best, then that’s all Hashem wants from you. The FFB’s can talk about this dress or that chumra, but remember 2 things. First they grew up listening to frum music. Second, most of their friends and relatives are doing it too. Because of that, it’s a lot easier for them. Cookie cutter works great when all your friends and relatives do it too. Don’t get upset at them if they can’t figure out why you listen to rap. It’s easy for them to avoid this. You can do yourself a big favor and hide the fact that you listen to this music from the frum public.

Oomis asks whether people who listen to rap are not part of frum society because frum society rejects rap music. Anyone who accepts that they’re not supposed to be listening to this music is just as frum as anybody else. Let me give an example. Is anyone who speaks loshon Hara not frum? Now the answer is obvious. We all speak loshon hara. If you accept that it’s wrong, then you are frum. If you think it’s O.K. to speak loshon hara, then you aren’t. My experience was that sooner or later an opportunity comes along to break the Yetzer Hara for listening to music (or speaking loshon Hara ). The question is how will you react to that opportunity. Will you say, “Wow, this is my big chance to break that bad habit?” For instance, Sefira or the three weeks can be golden opportunities to make progress from wherever you happen to be holding vis-a-vis goyishe music.

Therefore you probably shouldn’t marry an FFB. They’re probably not going to understand that you need to listen to rap. Even if they do, their families won’t. They struggle with different challenges than we do.

Here’s one more thing that worked for me. When I became frum, I decided to NEVER accept any Chumras. Zero. Even though there are plenty of chumras that I keep, I always do it Bli Neder. I keep Chumras because I find myself in the company of other people who are doing them. I do it to fit in. To use this approach, you need to know what the halacha requires you to do and where the halacha ends and where the chumra begins. And that is another project that you will need to work on for the rest of your life – clarifying what the halacha says about everything from rap music to black stockings. It definitely helps to have somebody to ask. If you don’t have a Rabbi, then call Lisa at the N’vei Yerushalyim office in New York. (I assume you’re in New York.) She’s very open and accepting. She can be your support system temporarily while she finds a different Rav for you.

Anyways, I admire you for wanting to do the right thing.

Everyone is right, and everyone is wrong. Real solutions require real work. Having a professional divorce mediator who works for the community would help avoid these problems. The mediator would go through the financials and prepare a proposal showing how each side would survive financially and deal with custody. Lawyers have a vested interest in creating Machlokes because they are paid by the hour. If both sides come to the court/lawyers with a negotiated settlement and just want it adjusted/checked for fairness/accuracy, things would be very different.

Dear Leeba,

Please do me a favor and go to Shabbat.com, and try eating a Shabbos Seuda somewhere. If it feels good, then keep doing it. If it doesn’t, then you are no worse off then you are now.

Look at the posts – even Da’as Yachid. We all love you – yet we will never know who you are. There are many things that are difficult to understand about Yiddishkeit. Add that one to the list and maybe your perspective will change.

Don’t think outside the box.

Buy her flowers, and pay the florist to deliver them to the Yichud room. That way you can be done with it quickly, so there’s one less thing to think about.