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While “The warning signs” might be obvious to you, they can be easily misunderstood. This can lead to a shadchan labeling someone as psycho when they were just having a bad day. Rather than labeling someone based on flimsy evidence, I suggest waiting until after the third date and then paying for professional advice.
At that point – before the engagement – there is no issur of lashon hara, so it is the ideal time to try to find out the truth.The three conditions that you mentioned, Asperger Syndrome, Borderline Personality Disorder and Narcissism, are not well-defined. We could sum them all up as problems creating close relationships. I think the best approach is to ask about the roommates and friends of the prospective shidduch. On the dates, it is a good idea to ask about friends and roommates as well as family members. Ask about sibling rivalry. Ask if they enjoy spending time with their father. Ask for stories from their childhood. After the third date, I suggest the couple go on a long date (meaning from the morning until night begins). It’s hard to fake being nice all day if you have one of those conditions. Then go home and ask yourself if you want your vacations to be like that long date.
AT THAT POINT, Don’t be afraid to go to a professional marriage counselor with experience and present the evidence. Most Rabbis and Shadchanim are not professional marriage counselors. It can be very difficult to distinguish between an immature girl and a narcissistic girl. The professional should give you one technique specific to that one individual to help you test whether you should continue the shidduch or not.
And of course, don’t forget to daven.Here is something more intelligent in case anyone is interested.
Rabbi Shaya Ostrov says,
“I know boys who are languishing…
who don’t know how to develop a relationship.
Guys develop the ability to create a relationship during marriage.
>>>>>>>> It’s not a statistical issue. <<<<<<<<<<
Both in Lakewood and the Upper West Side, there are people who have been dating for 20 years. They have not developed the skills to be married. With every passing date, their ability to get married decreases. Couples while they’re dating need an enormous amount of guidance. We need to teach young men how to develop emotionally in early years of schooling … how to understand relationships, how to understand drives. … Kalla and Chosson teachers should be teaching how to create relationships that endure for a lifetime – solid programs that have proven themselves to be helpful. We need to teach people about anxiety and panic which have a very serious effect on relationship”That quote is from an hour long video on the Shidduch crisis that used to be on YWN around 1.5 or 2 years ago. link removed
Unfortunately, YWN put Rabbi Ostrov at around an hour into the video, so I would guess that very few people heard what he had to say.As far as the original poster goes, instead of posting on YWN, please go spend some money on an appointment with Rabbi Ostrov, so he can explain it to you. And may you be zoche to build a bayis ne’man B’yisroel B’karov.
B’Sha’a Tova U’Mutzlachas!
Tizki L’vnos Bayis Ne’eman B’Yisroel!In case someone wants to look up the halacha, it’s in Sefer Chofetz Chaim, Hilchot Esurei Lashon Hara, Kelal Vav, Halachos 10-11. The Be’er Mayim Chayim explains why it might be mutar to publicize this story. Basically, it might be mutar so that other Jews can protect themselves from harm. However, to really understand the halacha, you would need to understand how the Chofetz Chaim resolves the question of the Rosh on Rashi in Germara Niddah 61a. (see Be’er Mayim Chayim 28.)
Student: What exactly do you want the “leaders” to do?
Instead of posting in the Coffee Room , call Flatbush Shomrim Safety Patrol, 718-338-9797, and tell them you want to volunteer.
To Sam Klein:
I stopped texting while driving, so please don’t say, “Were all texting still.”No one has mentioned life rings. There should be a life ring attached to a rope (preferably two) nearby if there is a danger of drowning.
I agree with points 1 and 2 made by “The little I know”.
Without a definition, there isn’t much point in having the discussion or gathering statistics.
Basically, do the best you can with whatever you’ve got. It’s not something you can analyze. Each Ba’al Tshuva has his own story and can tell you about the Hashgachah Pratis he experienced. Make Hishtadlus and Hashem will help. That’s all you need to know.Try going to ohrreuven dot com. Look at the pictures and the “Reuven Review”, and you’ll get a general idea of their “Derech Ha’Limud”.
HMR does not end the marriage or “impose a get” as you put it. It permits the man to take a second wife. I would guess that a Rosh Yeshiva would have an easier time convincing a Beis Din to give that type of heter just because he is more familiar with the Halacha.
From Wikipedia: “Heter meah rabbanim (Hebrew: היתר מאה רבנים “permission by one hundred rabbis”) is a term in Jewish law which means that one hundred Rabbis agree with a Beth din (rabbinical court) that a particular situation warrants an exemption to permit a man to remarry even though his wife refuses or is unable to accept a get (a legal divorce according to Jewish law).
In about 1000 CE the Ashkenazic halachic authority Rabbeinu Gershom of Mainz issued a decree called “Cherem de’Rabbeinu Gershom” banning polygamy. To prevent this decree from causing flippant divorces previously unnecessary, he also decreed that “a woman may not be divorced against her will”.
In certain extreme cases, however, such as the case of a man whose wife is missing, or refuses to accept a get for an extended period, Beth din will only permit him to remarry after one hundred rabbis agree with them to issue an exemption.
After receiving a heter meah rabbanim, Beth din will require the husband to write a get for his wife and deposit it with them. His wife will remain married until she receives the get in her possession.
To ensure that a particular situation indeed justifies an exemption, the rabbis instituted a requirement, that at least one hundred Torah scholars domiciled in at least three different countries or, according to some authorities, it is enough three different jurisdictions, certify that dispensation for a second marriage is factually justified.
In order to get a heter meah rabbonim, it used to be that a man who got the go ahead from a Rabbinic court wandered from town to town and from one country to another with a letter from Beth din and had to plead his case with every town Rabbi to get his approval. Later on, written permission by mail was accepted and sometimes an intermediary was used to plead his case. In the last century with the ease of communication, it has become a more formal process in which Beth din takes the lead and secures the one hundred signatures required.
Situations where Beth din might see a justification which warrants this process includes:
Where the Halacha requires a man to divorce his wife and she refuses to accept it (e.g. some situations of adultery).
Where the wife has abandoned her husband and steadfastly refuses to accept a get.
Where the wife disappeared and her whereabouts are unknown.
Where the wife is mentally unable to give consent to receiving a get.
Where the wife has fallen into an irreversible coma due to illness or injury.
In the last two of these cases, the Beth din will, as a condition of the heter, demand a binding undertaking from the husband that he will continue to provide for his wife’s care.”At this point, the whole discussion about Ivanka is nothing but Lashon Hara because there is no purpose. She accepted the same restrictions on her behavior that other people who are part of the KJ/Ramaz/Haskell Lookstein/East Side world accept on themselves. Please leave her alone.
A far more relevant discussion is whether the State of Israel should decide to stop accepting the future conversions of anyone who converts in Chutz La’aretz regardless of which Beis din converted them. If you want the State of Israel to accept you, then you ought to be required to meet their standards of “accepting the yoke of Mitzvos”, and you should need to go to the Mikva there. It would create a minimum standard and a registry of who converted and when.
As far as Ivana’s mother goes, apparently she is alive and well and living in the Czech Republic. Here is a cut and paste:
“Ivana Trump was born Ivana Marie Zelnícková on February 20, 1949, in Gottwaldov (now Zlín), Czechoslovakia (now the Czech Republic), the daughter of Marie (née Francová–possibly of the town Francova Lhota) and Miloš Zelníček.”
If you really have nothing better to do, then please track down Marie Francova Zelnick (AKA Ivanka’s mother’s mother) and ask her if her mother was Jewish. She probably remembers her mother’s parents too. I always thought that Marie was the equivalent of Mary. There aren’t many Jewish girls named Mary, but she was born in the 1920’s, so perhaps her parents gave her that name on purpose to hide her Judaism.The source of this rumor is stormfront dot org May 5, 2016. It is based on Zelnick being a Jewish name which IMHO does not even qualify it as a rumor because Zelnick is not a uniquely Jewish name.
I agree. Shabbos meals with similarly aged members of the opposite sex is a good idea. However, I disagree about judging someone by the conversations at the Shabbos table. For instance, if I am at a Shabbos Seuda seated next to an Am Ha’aretz, I will probably discuss whatever he is interested in discussing (usually sports) . Maybe if I sat next to you, we could have a long heart to heart discussion about Klal Yud, Halacha Beis, rule Gimmel of the Chofetz Chaim. It takes two people to have a discussion.
However, I don’t think Shabbos meals will solve the problem of pickiness. It will mitigate it by allowing the “rejectee” to avoid the pain of being rejected by a picky person.
A big advantage of the Shabbos meals as a first date system is that there is no “research” before you meet the person for the first time. “Research” into potential shidduchim is a huge source of Lashon Hara. If a superficial person decides in the first 10 seconds that they don’t want to date someone based on appearance, it is hard to argue that there was “Toelles” in telling them Lashon Hara about the potential shidduch.
“But at the same time I myself am dating guys who are close to being OTD or actually OTD so there is a contradiction going on.”
I’m sure that contradiction is painful for you. May Hashem help you resolve it in accordance with His Will and give you the joy of a resolved contradiction.
Good Luck!
I can’t speak on behalf of Klal Yisroel, but I’m mochel whatever I can be mochel on.
Please take encouragement from the Hakdama to Sefer Chafetz Chaim where he says:
“In summary, one’s Yetzer Hara will push him in either one of two directions; either to rationalize the circumstance so that he comes to believe that what he is saying is not LH at all, or that the Torah did command us against speaking LH about this kind of person.”
Since you are not doing either of those, you can be confident that you have escaped from the Yetzer Hara.
Like everything else in Judaism, it is kosher if a poseik says it’s kosher. If you need a psak, ask Rav Shmuel Irons of Detroit. He has studied this subject extensively.
There have been rare cases where a poseik has been matir this. For instance, someone had painful rashes that no doctor could explain and that did not heal. A past life regression revealed that this person had burned to death in a previous life. That knowledge resulted in being able to heal the rashes. (I don’t remember how exactly, but I think they used compresses that had been soaked in a mixture that contained kerosene.) However, in general, we are supposed to assume that the information we need is available via normal hishtadlus such as doctors, psychiatrists, etc. If it was good for us to know more, Hashem would have made it available via normal hishtadlus.
I don’t understand the question. Don’t you say (or sing) “VeZakeini” after you light? Daven for sons who can “light up the world with their Torah, good deeds and all the work of the Borei”. May Hashem provide everything you need to bring them into the world and raise them so they will indeed light up the world with Torah, good deeds and all the work of the Borei.
To “The little I know”,
Thank you.
To BigGolem:
lightbrite said to BigGolem:
“Whichever type of gift, I like how ->YOU<- thought of a way to build that connection.”
That MIGHT mean “ask the mods for my e-mail address, and let’s get to know each other.” It can’t hurt to try.
The other thing she said is that notes, gifts, etc. from relationships that didn’t work out “haunt her”. That means stick to flowers or food which she will eventually throw out. Meanwhile pay attention to (and comment on) her jewelry (or lack thereof) in case the relationship gets serious. 75% of communication is non-verbal. Women use clothes to communicate, and you can give her the gift she is looking for when she says she wants to be “listened to”. Unfortunately what she is hearing is “How about some notes that will haunt you for the rest of your life if this doesn’t work out?”
The problem with this whole discussion is that there are many different types of relationships just like there are many different types of people. G-d willing you’ll get married soon and understand why married people hesitate to make generalizations.
(I wouldn’t have pointed this out if you hadn’t call yourself “BigGolem”. That name communicates: “Please help me”.)
Get going and good luck.
It’s a nice dream. You would need to pay off Donald in order to get him to resign. What do you suggest we give him?
Sam2 – you are correct. However, see Kaf Hachaim(116:35) who requires a haiker between liver and fish – just like a haiker is required between milk and meat in Y.D. Siman 88.
Sparkly – As you can see, Tznius is a complicated subject. The easiest thing to do is to find a synagogue where you feel comfortable and dress in a way that makes you feel like you fit in. Eventually, you need to learn through all these halachos, but for right now, doing it this way makes life simple.
He must have meant Kuf Ayin Gimmel (173:2). There the Mechanber says, “Between meat and fish, it’s an obligation to wash because it is difficult for something else, and by danger we are even more strict than Issur.”
The Mishna Brura(3) says that “difficult for something else” means eating fish and meat together causes leprosy. However he says to see the Magen Avraham who says that it is possible that nowadays there is no danger. This is because nature has changed.
In other words, it was dangerous at one time, but may not be anymore. Nonetheless, Moshiach Agent has a valid point. The MINHAG amongst everyone I know who keeps Shabbos is not to have fish and meat on the table at the same time. If you want to feel like you are a member of the group of people who keeps Shabbos, then you will need to conduct yourself according to this minhag. If you have an uncontrollable desire to put anchovies on Chicken Ceasar Salad, don’t tell anyone about it except for your local Orthodox Rabbi 🙂
Dear Sparkly,
First of all, let me tell you that it is really inspiring to hear of a fellow Jew who wants to become more religious. Yaisher Koach!
I completely understand what you are saying about Shabbos and Kashrus. When I was first becoming frum I was told the same thing in Ohr Sameach. There is no proof available. It’s assur to publish this type of psak Halacha because it can so easily be twisted or misunderstood.
As you can see, most people here in the CR do not know you and don’t understand your perspective. It can be very hard for an FFB to understand a BT and vice-versa. Please don’t be insulted by the misunderstandings.
I am going to guess that what you meant by “more religious” in your OP was something along the lines of “how do I develop a relationship with G-d?” If so, then I would say absan is correct, you need to try to find a teacher. It also helps to develop relationships with other people who want to become more religious. Even if you can’t do that right now, it is O.K. to just say “when I get the opportunity to grow, I will try”.
Good luck and remember there are a lot of people who are proud of you!
I disagree with charliehall about “wear something that makes you comfortable.” If in your picture on SYAS you were wearing Shabbos clothing and makeup, you need to wear that on the first date. G-d Willing there will be a second date and then you can wear comfortable clothing. He will be checking to see if your picture was “enhanced” -and you should do the same.
And yes, it is totally normal to meet in a hotel lobby and talk.
I would agree with charlihall about being honest, but you don’t need to answer every question you are asked. My rule of thumb is don’t ask or answer anything you wouldn’t want on page 1 of The New York Times on a first date. Feel free to change the subject.
Ask him to describe what Shabbos afternoon is like on a long summer Shabbos or what Saturday night is like on a short winter Shabbos. Ask him about all of his siblings and tell him about all of yours. The point of the conversation is to try and determine whether shy means he is emotionally unavailable. If you smile and are careful to be non-threatening, will he open up and tell you the things that his casual acquaintances know about him?
TO NeutiquamErro:
Here is an article from abcnews (Aug. 15) that supports your position.
“A Chicago-based communist revolutionary group blamed by Milwaukee’s police chief for stoking a second day of violence said that some of its members did go there to “support a revolution” but didn’t set out to cause trouble.
Police chief Ed Flynn said members of a Chicago chapter of the Revolutionary Communist Party turned what had been a peaceful night into a tense one by leading marchers down several blocks at around 11:30 p.m. TV footage showed a small group of protesters walking or running through the streets, sometimes toppling orange construction barriers.”
Instead of blaming Black people for the problem, perhaps we ought to consider that RevCom and BLM statements should be prosecutable as incitement to violence, but the justice system can’t or won’t prosecute them. Just make them financially liable for their “support a revolution” statements, and the worst of the violence will end.
I mostly agree with Avi K’s refutation of Charlihall.
As far as the original posting’s “point 3”, I think it has successfully been proven to be irrelevant to the question at hand: Will Israel be majority “religious” in 10 years?
Here is an example of an item with no dairy ingredients that is milchig. Take an egg. Boil it in milk. Peel the egg. The egg is milchig, but contains no dairy ingredients.
Similarly with meat. Deep fry chicken in oil. Use the same oil to deep fry French fries. The French fries are fleishig, and require you to wait 6 hours after eating them, but contain no meat.
The question is not whether it contains milk or meat, but rather whether the taste of milk or meat has been transferred to it.
According to Chazal, Gematria is only valid in Lashon Hakodesh. The people who used Ancient Greek to calculate Gematria did so because Ancient Greek letters correspond to numbers like in Hebrew. Nonetheless, I’m pretty sure using Ancient Greek in this way is enough to get you the title of Kofeir because it implies there is holiness in Ancient Greek. The only way you can use it is to explain why a Kofeir or a goy would think/act in a certain way. (But I could be wrong. Ask your LOR.) I hope you are joking if you think Jews would ever entertain a thought of using Gematria in English. Even according to the goyim, English letters do not have (official) numerical values, so the whole concept is silly.
Since we are being silly, I will say that Donald Trump is orange because he supports the former residents of Gush Katif 🙂
TO TIAWD: Why is it so important to find a “reliable source” ? Nothing is going to change as far as Halacha or hashkafa is concerned, so why is it important to you?
Secondly proving or disproving something that may have existed hundreds of years ago is virtually impossible. The truth is that we will never be able to go to a court of law and provide evidence that would stand up there to prove or to disprove – until Eliyahu Hanavi comes and tells us.
Let us suppose that I can prove to you that the Sambatyon was part of the Volga in the area of the Caspian depression. Let us suppose that the phenomenon existed during the time of the Khazars and ended some time after they were conquered. The city of Astrakhan could probably be reached in 50 days from Aden on riding camels (80 miles/day). Suppose further that instead of a supernatural phenomenon, this was an irrigation method for creating a barrier that had the purpose of defending from marauding armies for the 6 days when the men were in the fields, but inviting an attack on Shabbos when the men were assembled at home. Then what ? What good would that do you?
Assuming theroshyeshiva is correct that you can get scholarships to subsidize everything but $500/month, there is a solution. You could ask him to earn the money himself. If he is homeschooling now, he probably has some time on his hands. If there are pet sitting opportunities within walking distance, he might be able to make $1000/month on 2-3 pet sitting jobs per day. He could sleep in people’s houses to take care of their pets (if they trust him) for around $50/night. There’s other types of jobs, but for a 14 year old who is O.K. with long walks outside in all types of weather, this is probably the best.
You might want to point out to him that he is probably going to need a tutor (at least in the beginning) because there won’t be many boys who want a chavrusa who has “difficulty reading.” What’s more, it’s inevitable that one of the immature teenagers who are his classmates are going to tease him about this. Will he be able to handle that?
I assume that when you say, “starting a business”, you mean something like the suggestion below from the Yeshiva University Java Programming page. Besides a business plan and an adviser, a business owner should definitely get some training of some kind.
Microsoft Virtual Academy offers C# training for free. Completing the Certification tests together with some code samples from a real website will probably get you a temp job where you can prove yourself.
“Computer Programming
The financial crisis has only strengthened the need for people trained in computer programming and business management. Java was developed by James Gosling in 1990, at Sun Microsystems. C# combines the robustness of C++ with the advanced features of Java. C# language is used with Visual Studio IDE. If you are writing a web-based application in ASP.NET, you will be required to code in C# or VB for the backend.
To land a management position in the computer industry, you’ll need the right technical training program for the job. Computer programming is full of employment prospects because of emerging technologies, and the growth of the internet. A given website’s success is governed by two factors, visitor traffic and online sales conversions. Think about the type of online business that you want to start, and then build an e-commerce website using a template or HTML, adding a database and programming routines.
The easiest way to start is by generating database-driven pages, and monetize your traffic with Google Adsense. You can drive targeted visitors to your site at a reasonable cost by learning search engine optimization (SEO) techniques, or buying paid traffic through Adwords. You can also make money with affiliate programs, or charge monthly membership fees, if making either iPhone or Android apps. Just web page design and layout isn’t enough, if no-one can find it in Google’s search results. You’ll also need online marketing skills, and the ability to drive conversions.”
I agree with RebYidd23. An indirect approach is usually the best way to go with a stranger.
Joseph – I know of around 10 people who take credit for making me frum. And they all have a point. Each one helped me take the next small step. The long short road that Rav Mendel Weinbach ztz”l told us about has many small steps. Thank you for helping your fellow Jew take a step in the right direction.
LF – Perhaps what he gained was that he was forced to live without his movies for a while. Perhaps he took the first, small step towards breaking free.
Sorry, no links
There are 2 synagogues at Frankfurt airport. The first one, which is for passengers in transit, is located at terminal D. Terminal D can be reached by the “Sky Link” monorail, operating free of charge every 3 minutes from terminal A and B/C. the journey takes 2-3 minutes. In terminal D one should follow the sign (Magen David) and opposite restaurant LAXX, turn twice to the left.
The second synagogue is outside the transit area in terminal B, main hall of departures level. One should take the stairs opposite the post office in the direction of the federal police offices (watch the Magen David sign). The synagogue is in room number 201.3409.
Squeak – sorry. I did not mean to imply that there would then logically follow Apr. ’33 – National boycott of Jewish businesses and removal of Jews from civil service. Anyone who thinks that is delusional. He isn’t going to lead a boycott against his daughter. I disagree with your “it can’t happen here” attitude. Mr. Trump does seem to want to deport 11 million people from the U.S.A.
How will he accomplish that? It’s not clear. He will need to circumvent the Justice system somehow. He has both broad support and supporters willing to get violent which implies that he might be successful similar to the trade unions success one hundred years ago. Once the mechanism for deporting people en masse is in place, there is no telling what it will be used for. But maybe that will never happen. From his speech at AIPAC, he sounds far more pro-Israel than Hillary.
The whole concept that we can know in advance who will be better is false. Hashem alone knows. As I said before, our job is to do tshuva. Bracha and Hatzlacha.
NEWS FLASH: HASHEM CONTROLS THE WORLD. All we need to do is figure out how to do tshuva. Read Megillas Esther if you don’t believe me.
Squeak: The Weimar Republic was a democracy with checks and balances. Y’mach Shmo was sworn in as Chancellor Jan. ’33. In Feb. ’33, the Reichstag burned down. By March ’33, he was in total control.
To YehudaYona,
I don’t think Sanders is “hated” by Congress. They may disagree with him, but he is able to engage in civil discourse better than any other candidate. What’s more, there are significant numbers of Sanders Republicans. Just on the issue of Citizens United, look at this article from last summer:
“Sen. Bernie Sanders is often characterized by the media as an out of the mainstream presidential candidate, but a new CBS/New York Times poll revealed that 80% of Republicans agree with Sanders on the issue of getting money out of politics.
The CBS/NYT poll found that:
All of these positions are held by Bernie Sanders, and the opinion of the majority on each question is the exact opposite of the reasoning used by the majority of the Supreme Court in the Citizens United decision.”
I agree with Takahmamash – EY is a better option.
Quoting Avy Meyers,
“He spews anger, venom, and cruelty with which many of our downtrodden masses have chosen to take solace and identify. It’s a great outlet for anger, but not a solution for anything if he doesn’t have a plan or doesn’t know what he is doing, and he doesn’t. He is no more than the Hulk Hogan of politics. A brash, bold, bully and beast. Not the answer to fixing this country, yet his popularity grows and many of his supporters aren’t even Republicans, just people who have never participated in the political process whose anger with this country resonates loudly, whose desire to fix things is wrongly attached to the charlatan, thief and liar we call Donald Trump.”
To Technical21:
B’SHA’A TOVA U’MUTZLACHAS!
TIZKI LIVNOS BAYIS NE’EMAN B’YISROEL!
This was an extremely important point that you forgot:
“i forgot to add that his sister asked me if she and him can get a ride because she didnt want him going with not jewish girls and she rather him go with a jewish girl.”
This is a delicate balancing act. Some girls can just refuse to talk to any and all men which makes life easier. You should talk to a Rabbi about this situation.
Having his sister in the car will mean the two of you have a chaperone, so it is mutar al pi Din. Just make it clear -both to him and to yourself- that without a chaperone, you aren’t going to give him a ride. Without a chaperone, it is better for him to go with the non-Jewish woman.
What the other adults are telling you about this boy sucking you into his world is correct, but if there is a way to help that is mutar al pi din, then you can rely on the Halacha to protect you.
If you don’t, then the boy will use this as evidence of his pariah status. I’m telling you to help when the Halacha allows you to, so he won’t get any angrier than he (probably) already is.
That’s about all you can do to help him. Befriending him is not going to help. In fact it will probably make things worse. Do what you can within the restrictions of Halacha, and hopefully next semester he won’t be in any of your classes.
Of course, there is one more thing you can do. You can daven for him. Get his name from his sister and say tehillim and daven for the zechus of the amiras tehillim to go to him.
Joseph: I think this thread went off topic with this post:
“51. Some abuse victims are also content to stay where they are.
mdd, doesn’t the Gemora say that a woman would rather be married to a bad husband than to not be married? “
To summarize where we were before we went off track:
1) Mammelle said,
” I think a major difference is that for the most part Litvish women are expected to have a career long term while for the most part Chasidish women are not expected to and most of her focus is on raising a family and homemaking — beyond the first few years while her husband learns and she must work.”
2) Daas Yochid said,
“There is more parental support (I don’t just mean financial) in the first couple of years.” This was backed up by Moshiach Agent.
3) But I think we can pretty much forget about the idea due to the comment,
“I think it would be a disaster for the Litvish community.” which was backed up by Popa
I do have a suggestion that is based on this idea. There are probably a small number of Litvish girls who could enter the world of the beshow if they were prepared properly. Perhaps this would require that they and their parents decide to send them to a Chassidische high school at age 14? It would be apparent very quickly whether the other girls accepted them or not. If not, they would leave and go to a Litvish high school. If the other girls accepted her, she could try the beshow system at 18-19. If that didn’t work, she could simply go back to the Litvish shadchanim at age 20. That small number of Litvish girls might be enough to solve the shidduch crisis based on the assumption that the Chassidische velt has a reverse shidduch crisis (too many boys).
To MW13: Thanks for your comments and your work on these issues. I do disagree with one thing you said.
I thought the “open” in “Open Orthodoxy” had a similar meaning to an open marriage. In other words, it’s O.K. to cheat. The reason they use the title “Orthodox” is just a way of saying that if you are an orthodox day-school graduate who became a radical feminist or LGBT, you will feel comfortable in OO. Since those two types of people have no where else to go to daven, there is going to be a market for OO regardless of whether there is a warm, authentic Shul nearby or not.
Hope that helps.
To Sacred Driver Delight,
You said, “It is uncertain that there’s a mitzvah to live in eretz yisrael nowadays.” Please look in the Pe’at Hashulchan. I don’t have the sefer in front of me, but I seem to remember that he brings that there definitely is a mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel today. The only machlokes is whether it is D’oraisa or D’Rabannan. This depends on the machlokes Rambam vs. Ramban which goes back to the machlokes Tanaim about Kudsha L’shaysa vs. Kudsha L’atid Lavo.
No. One person can’t do teshuva for someone else. Part of the teshuva process is for the sinner to decide they will (try to) never do the sin again. AFAIK, it is impossible for one person to decide that somebody else will never do something again. It is also impossible (AFAIK) to do teshuva after a soul departs.
However, if the child of the niftar does teshuva then that is a big zechus for the parent – even if they have already passed on.
Mashiach agent is trying to say that he would like to inspire all of the Jews in the world to do teshuva by his acts of tzidkus – but he can’t do it for them.
You probably would get a better answer from your local orthodox Rabbi.
Kesiva V’chasima Tova!
I have always felt that if the Shadchan could set them both up to be hired by an agency as babysitters, it could solve a lot of problems. First of all, background checks would be required and would be done be a disinterested third party. More importantly, they are imitating a typical night at home with the kids. If the boy can see that this women would make a great mother, maybe he would be willing to overlook the fact that she isn’t the most attractive woman available. Tznius would be guaranteed by video cameras, microphones, etc.
And even if babysitting wouldn’t work, the basic idea is to make them co-workers first and gradually develop a relationship. It avoids the high-stress, high-stakes date. Because it isn’t a date at all. They don’t have to talk about anything other than the job at hand if they don’t want to. Even if you know in the first five minutes, that this person isn’t for you, it doesn’t matter. You’re being paid to do a job and this person is your co-worker.
The two of them could be set up this way without even telling either of them who their co-worker is going to be. No personal questions about the other person until you agree to be their co-worker a second time.
Try Yeshivanet:
http://www.yeshivanet.com/faq/index.html
The filtering is done on a router that they control. It’s difficult to circumvent. You can make a white list, so ZD’s web store could be included.
As far as what to give the kid instead of the internet goes:
Ideally, we are all supposed to be involved with Torah and Mitzvos 24/7/365. No secular books or trips to stadiums allowed at all – for pleasure. Of course, nowadays most people are decadent to some extent, so we would go nuts without our various forms of fun and relaxation. The Torah concept is that pleasure is only supposed to come from accomplishing. A great person is someone who doesn’t need the secular books or trips to stadiums because he gets his pleasure from Torah and Mitvos. To the extent that a child’s parents live up to that ideal, that is somewhere around the extent that the child will probably live up to it. Mishnayos can be just as interesting and fun as a secular book – if that is the father’s attitude towards learning. Preparing for the Chagim can be as much fun as going to a ballgame – if that is the father’s attitude towards mitvos.
I only bring up this lofty ideal since the whole discussion seems to be theoretical. In the real world, you’re probably going to need to buy various forms of bribes to get the kid to do what you want.
The sad reality is that the minute you give the kid a library card, he has access to unfiltered internet in the library.
There are neighborhoods where the “bad friends and negative influences” are kept to a minimum. Perhaps ask yeshivanet in which neighborhoods their services are popular and try to move there?
MDG – Yes, your interpretation would seem correct based on the Gemara. However, look in the Rambam (Rotzeah, 2.2-3) who says that there is no “death at the hand of the court” for the crime of suicide, only “death by the hands of Heaven,”. This is puzzling, since how could a suicide, no longer alive, be punished for the crime by the court?
It would probably be better to decide that we don’t understand what these terms mean.
Goldilocks – I would suggest that the actual punishment might depend on whether the individual (while he was still alive) would prefer punishment in this world or the next. If so, then there is a fourth type of Kares – the type where the individual does Tshuva M’Ahava and is rewarded in the next world. We’re all capable of being Maccabees!
Lior – Where are you looking in the report? It seems to me that he is defining OTD as leaving the day school system before 12th grade.
Do you know any Shadchanim who would be willing to confirm or deny your observation about the relative number of men vs. women who are trying to get married? It should be quick and easy to come up with some informal counts for each age or age group. If you are correct that 15% of the men aren’t getting married, then the real problem would be that the unmarried men (and probably women too) need relationship counseling. Putting men in the Parsha earlier could actually make the problem worse since the more selfish and immature the guy is, the harder it is to create a relationship with him. And after he has tried and failed to create a relationship over and over again, he will give up. I know that having relationship counselors instead of Shadchanim is kind of radical but if the problem is the way you describe it, I don’t know of another solution.
Lior: SBS-SA is talking about boys who are OTD. A dropout and an OTD are not the same thing. Dropout means no longer attending school. The Jewish community doesn’t allow boys to drop out – of school. We make special schools for boys that don’t fit in. The statistic in the report doesn’t change the fact that there are boys who should be going to shul on Shabbos with their father, but aren’t. Go to any shul and look for the 6th -8th grade boys. You’ll see what he’s talking about.
As far as statistics go, don’t Shadchans have databases with thousands of names? Anyone who does database analysis for a living ought to be able to come up with a decent picture of what’s going on.
Thanks “Getting it Right”!
I don’t understand Rabbi Rechnitz’ proposed solution. Everyone seems to agree that the majority of 21 year old yeshiva boys are not ready for marriage. If the boys don’t exist, paying Shadchanim to find them is not going to help. Do we really want to “convince” (AKA coerce) a boy into marriage while his classmates are in Israel having a good time =shteiging away with no worries about in-laws, parnassa, etc?
Bottom line is that Rabbi Rechnitz is saying that we need to become more like Chassidim. I would guess that the whole parnassa process is different by the Chassidim too. Where do they get the money for all those kids? If the Chassidishe derech is successful, then I would guess that it needs to be adopted for the yeshiva boys too? If so, then it’s going to take a lot more adjustments than just getting boys married off at age 21.
Thanks for pointing it out, Lior!
It says that enrollment in Chasidic day schools is up 110% (=more than doubled) in the past 15 years since the first survey was taken. But by the Chasidim, the Shidduch crisis is in REVERSE. There are more men than women. This undermines the entire theory that the growth of day school enrollment caused the shidduch crisis.
The girls get married at a younger age than the boys by the Chasidim, but it hasn’t caused a shortage of men.
Charliehall – please comment.