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Aaq, firstly, the study you reference was very small, and doesn’t quite describe the important variables in the trial, the age of patients, dosage, when it was administered…I’ll refer you to the nyu study that showed patients given the additional zinc had a 44% greater chance of survival than those given just the HCQ+azithromycin.
I’m no expert, I’m just trying to apply comment sense. When early in the pandemic I heard about many doctors having success with a specific protocol, I was expecting the medical establishment to test the specific protocol quite thoroughly. Instead, as a bystander, I saw politics and money get in the way, I saw no study performed that even resembled the way it was supposed to,(according to those who were reporting success with it).
“other than that, go to some baalei tzedokah and organize a trial, somewhere in a country where you will be allowed. It is not that difficult with some persistence.”-i assume this is a joke, and I’ll respond with a courteous “lol”.AAQ, “Did we study Gemora on COVID
Bava Metzia 107a – everything in the hands of Heaven except cold and heat?”-what is your point in saying this? If a person kills somebody, do we hold him accountable, or do we say “the person would have died anyways”?
“There were several HCQ trials, they failed. some people say that protocol was wrong – possible. But there are hundreds of other things to try also.”-I don’t think there were hundreds of other things to try early on, perhaps there were, but when many doctors are pointing to a SPECIFIC regimen, that all point to the same anecdotal success, it shouldn’t be that difficult to replicate the regimen in an official double blind study. My point is that the medical establishment intentionally stayed away from the specific regimen when doing the official studies. They can’t possibly be that dumb to do it by mistake.Aaq, I’ve got no idea what your trying to say, for the millionth time, I will say that I think anyone to which covid poses any sort of risk-that is if your are let’s say 45+, or any underlying conditions, should definitely get the vaccine. Anyone who is not included in these categories shouldn’t run to take it unless we know it stops transmission-which btw we do NOT know at this point.
As to when administer HCQ, it’s rather simple. When you start feeling symptomatic. And no, it’s not 100% effective, but it does reduce it to the common cold/flu for which we don’t sd, mask up.AAQ, thats hardly a comparison. 1/3 was davening for zchusim. 2/3 was trying to avoid war, 3/3 was to prepare in case 2/3 didnt work. If he knew with absolute certainty that the gifts would appease eisav, would he have prepared for war? Lfi derach ha’tevah, he had to expect a the realistic possibility that perhaps eisav wouldn’t be appeased. Over here, according to my argument, lfi derach ha’tevah, HCQ reduces covid to nothing more than the common cold/flu. We don’t SD and mask up for that. And besides, hundreds of thousands already died before the vaccine was made available, HCQ has been there from the start. It just had to be used. I’ve said repeatedly that I think everyone who’s at risk shouldn’t hesitate taking the vaccine.
NIRC, not sure what your trying to say, I’m not and was never suggesting that the average Doctor in his/her office isn’t trying to save every life. I’m referring to the ones who decide policy across the nation, across the world, which medications we’ll use, and which ones we won’t.AAQ, his wifes a doctor too, so I guess thats good too lol
Charlie you can repeat the same lies, but when your not willing to discuss the facts….
tristate, “You dont need an experimental vaccine if you take prophylaxis and treat early if you get covid. Look at FLCCC’s website and VladimirZelenkoMD website for exact info.”-I discussed this topic at length in your thread https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/does-ywn-make-money-from-promoting-the-vaccines -I agree with you, I think only those who are somewhat at risk should take the vaccine, unless perhaps there is definite proof that the vaccine stops transmission. It’s a shame about HCQ, as far as im concerned, the Medical Establishment committed a genocide, and the democrats and left-media helped them. Call me a Qanon conspiracy theorist, but the facts are on my side. And so are the opinion of many medical experts.
Take the johnson&johnson. Not mRNA.
When choosing the best of the worst, I too, am leaning towards Yang.
Wow charlie, you are really gutsy, going back to the Charlottesville Lie as bold faced as you just did? Wow…
Charlie, you avoided the question. What is the % that is mandatory l’fi the torah?
You mentioned Yerushalmi Peah Perek Chet, I cant exactly learn the entire perek, perhaps you can tell me the specifics of what it says there, then we can discuss how it (doesnt)compares to bernie Sanders tax agenda.
And I second MadeAliya, I’m pretty sure id be aware if the world has ended. We’re doing just fine.AAQ, no one is saying we shouldnt help the poor. No one. But the tax on the wealthy, taxing those who worked their behinds off through college, paying back student loans, and using it for free college, things like this is completely not in line with TorahValues. (btw i personaly can benefit tremendoulsy from free college.)
charlie, “Unfortunately far right extremists have taken over the Supeme Court and we pay for that with lives.”-Gee, talk about gaslighting…
See the numerous agricultural tithes, the mandatory charity contributions that the Rabbis instituted….”
REALLY CHARLIE, REMIND ME, WHAT WERE THE PERCENTAGE OF MANDETORY TITHES???Ens, yeah the science is what the science is, and the “scientific consensus”(there is no actual scientific consensus) has been shifting the goalposts the past 50yrs, Mashiach will be here long before the Earth has a chance to “climate change” to anything significant. Not sure what this is supposed to be saying “As to Gedolim, for one that spends as much effort as you posting stuff here, I question what your adherence to whichever gedolim you prefer is.” Im not sure what my 15-30min/a day on YWN has to do with adherence to gedolim, maybe you can clarify.
ENS i dont even know where to start in my response to you. “I can get into details of Climate Change if you wanted to debate it, but the mod would probably prefer not and would likely block my comments as the science of it touches on some very touchy matters.” Yea, matters of Kefirah. When I hear some Gedolim coming in mass support of combating “climate change”, we can actually get into the specifics.
As for Gun control, the constitution is clear, I do actually support background checks, I dont see any downside to that. As for the Torah perspective, I dont see anywhere in the Torah, and dont know of any Takonos put in place against owning weapons. I do know the Torah supports and talks about self-defense…Id go so far to daringly suggest that todays Republican party resembles the democrat party of 30yrs ago, much more than todays democrat party.
Charlie, id love to know the %of population that are orthodox jews in the districts you mentioned, and how it relates to other districts, with the results. Hard for me to find all this data, I do know, via google search, that Ocean county, (lakewood township, jackson…), Trump won 63.8% of the vote. You cant just look at a county that has a comparatively larger orthodox jewish population, and draw conclusions. The only real way to know is via a poll taken of just “orthodox” jews. The only poll I know of is the Ami Magazine poll, taken from 1,000 people in a few different states.Reb e, mainly because the Trump tax cut wasnt just for the wealthy, and it didnt increase the deficit tremendously…
Charlie, we’re not talking about not paying taxes, we’re talking about implementing them in the first place…besides, there’s a difference between taxes given to the government where they use it for security, roads, ect, and taxes where they’re given to those who figure its just not worth working based on what they can get if they dont work; to abortion programs, to gender studies… Im not saying im against aiding those who need help, but the l’fi the torah, you are supposed to give between 10-20%, and even thats not technically mandated. The taxes that some democrat governments impose is ridiculous. Doesnt even help those who receive the money, just makes them dependent on the government. Which is what democrats want, I guess…DY, thank you
Yserbius, im not a doctor, i dont know your credentials, I do know Dr Zelenko released some preliminary papers early on, and kind of “upgraded” them as time went on. I have no clue what point your trying to make here. You vaguely state “HCQ was exhaustively researched in mid-2020 as a possible COVID cure. Various different formulas and mixtures”, your just not saying anything legitimate here. Yes, I know “HCQ was exhaustively researched”, it was researched on hospitalized patients, it was tried in extremely high dosage, it was tried w/o the correct complimentary drugs, ect… My point was it was never tried (by the medical establishment) in low dosage, with the correct accompanying drugs, and in the outpatient setting. There was a survey conducted in the last summer by Sermo, that true, was misinterpreted by many, but even after the “fact-check” was complete, found, (if im understanding correctly) 37% of doctors out of 2171 respondents, rated HCQ the most effective treatment. Now apply that 37% on a larger scale….I have a great idea, why don’t we just give 1,000,000 stimulus to everyone? Let’s even give the “undocumented” immigrants! Heck, let’s just give the whole world!! Best idea everrr!! In all seriousness, why don’t we discuss the other things included in the bill, and why it has nothing to do with “rescuing america”, and everything to do with promoting the democrat agenda?
Charlie, that’s all you got?? At least tell me WHY it’s a lie…refer me to the study that was conducted in the way those who promoted it wanted it to be conducted. I’ve been looking far and wide…
Yserbius, exactly what is he supposed to do when he is being shut down by the medical establishment? It takes time for these papers to be published, I think we understand that. And you do realize that Didier Raoult was always considered a huge expert in the field, I believe he has his name on thousands of papers, he was only mocked and ridiculed when he dared to promote the life saving drug.
Now, the drug WAS researched. It was researched because of its inherent properties. The problem starts when you give the patient 5x the recommended dose, then claim it’s “dangerous” when things go wrong. You can decide not to take anything out of thousands of patients dying at a 90% lower rate, but the fact that my questions cannot be answered is pretty darn problematic. If hundreds of doctors around the country, and thousands around the world say that they’ve tried the polio vaccine, and had huge success with it, then we absolutely should look into it. Doctors have promoted other things to help with covid, no one claimed them to be a miracle cures.“And I’m not talking about the neo nazis or white supremacists, they should be condemned, totally”, he’s greatly supported israel, he’s put policy into place to combat anti semitism here in america,….but haters will hate…
Either way this is rather irrelevant, I’ve explained in depth why I support the Republican Party, and I’ve asked nicely for you guys(Reb E, Charlie, huju, jackk…) to explain why you support democrats, in terms of specific policy, now your not mechuyav to do anything, but your silence is pretty telling….Oh, I see you also claim trump egged on and supported anti semetic groups -what are you talking about?? Please don’t refer back to the Charlottesville Lie.
ER, debate usually doesn’t end up convincing the other side(human nature) but at least we can settle upon exactly what we disagree with. I just don’t know what you by “but the ethnicities who join are more often used as props to show they’re not anti-whatever”-All the newly elected Republican members to the House this cycle are either woman or minorities, because that’s who Republicans chose. Trump got the largest % of the black vote than any Republican on the last 60yrs.
“Frum Jews in the party are
like a tiny spec compared to the overall numbers. Most members probably don’t know of their support (though I’m guessing here).”-not sure what you mean here, frum Jews make up a tiny spec of america’s population. In less you mean %wise, in which case a viral Ami magazine poll showed 85% of frum Jews supporting Trump.
You say “The fact that derivatives of Qanon conspiracies have been embraced by the establishment”-i have no clue where you get this from, the one Represetitve(MTG)who was found to have supported quanon in the past, had to publicly apologize for it.
The insurrections are who you have seen plastered across all front news pages, but are a tiny fraction of the rest of the base. They may have screamed very loudly but they have no voice in the party.
As for israel, all Biden has done is try to return to the disastrous Iran deal, and fund those who seek israel’s destruction. It is no secret that Israel preferred Trump over Biden. At the end of the day, whatever is attracting you to the democrats, overrides the horrific culture they are bringing America to??ER, I appreciate your response, though here is where I think your dead wrong. The Republican Party has become incredibly diversified over the last decade, we are no longer catering to ”White nationalists”. While these groups are considered to be on the Right, they have little-to-no voice in the party. The Right promotes and support Israel, there is a organization called EndJewHatred, and i see it being promoted by Right wing voices, not Left. The Left supports those who seek Israels destruction. Yes, as you said, I’m sure there are democrats out there who would support us jews, but their implemented policy just doesnt mirror that.
And in regards to transgenderism, I agree with the general principle of ‘live and let live”. And so, if a 40yr old wanted to mutilate his/her body, go ahead, I have no problem with that. But to teach kids that this is normal?? To encourage kids to “come out” as trans, and let THEM destroy their body?? NOT OKAY! Btw studies have shown that almost up to 90% of kids with Gender dysphoria,
actually grow up normal, without the issue. Yet we should let these 90% permanently and irreversibly destroy themselves?I think ive put forth some solid reasons to vote and support republicans, im still waiting on your counterarguments, in the form of actual policy you support.
ER, in regards to gay marriage, it is my belief that the american government has no business getting involved. Yes its a toevah, but restricting and discriminating against them wouldnt necessarily benefit society as a whole(I dont say this with much confidence, I think it is debatable)
However Trangenderism is a completely different story. Various barriers that were put in place to separate males and females, some very necessary barriers, are now being cut down. (separate bathrooms, separate sports, ect…) Furthermore, to teach children that this is normal, and to allow a confused 5yr old to permanently mutilate his body, is absolutely disgusting, yet this is where the left wants to bring us. I agree that there are many who simply go along with it to appease their base, I dont think Joe Biden, after 45 yrs in politics, suddenly believed that 8 yr olds should be able to choose to mutilate themselves, but l’moy nafcha mina.The next one to replace him will actually believe in it. And I understand completely, why 15-20yrs ago, you would feel slightly more protected by the Left than by the Right. But boy have things changed. There are just so many anti-semites, anti-israel democrats, not just among the “Radical Left”, but among currently elected/appointed officials in the democrat party. Yes there are plenty of scattered democrats who would stick up for us, possibly more so than most republicans, but this statement is becoming less and less true as we go on.Catch yourself I trust that is your Rov is indeed well known and respected. Which is why id be really interested to hear what he has to say about the culture in america, and where its headed. Abortion, transgenderism. Really trying to understand what there is to the Democrat Party. A few comments claim that democrats care about the poor, while Republicans care about the rich. This is an age old rhetoric that is completely inapplicable. Following the election, my Rov, too tremendously well known and respected across the yeshiva velt, said one thing about the election “dont talk about it by the Shabbos table.” Yet, following the inauguration, he gave a 45 minute drasha why the new administration is a catastrophe for klal yisroel. He prefaced the drasha by saying that every word he is about to say, is torah, and you would need to make a birchas HaTorah before hearing. Because it was Hashkafa, how a yid is supposed to view the events unfolding. He talked about there are some open anti semites, and anti israel, bds supporters among the democrat ranks(he didnt mention any names, in fact he didnt mention any politicians name throughout the drasha). He spoke about the culture, and the direction its heading. Catch, id really be interested to hear what your Rov has to say about these topics.
Ctlawyer, you may be anti guns totally, but I dont see how you can say thats the torah perspective.(certainly not in accordance with the constitution)I’m seeing ridiculous comments on both sides here. When discussing why one should support democrats vs republicans, there is a legitimate discussion to be had. What should be discussed and debated, is the core ideology, and fundamental principles of each side. Obviously if one supports democrats, he will look at every action taken by republicans to be bad, terrible and cruel. And vice versa. Why dont we actually debate the issues at hand.
Reb E, you say “democrats are for the poor”. As if Republicans aren’t? Please refer to the specific policy that you are talking about. (In DJT economy, the poverty rate in America plummeted)
In general, is it capitalism, or socialism that aligns with torah values? I think the answer is obvious.
In general, I think we all agree on guns, that while 2a should never be restricted, we should implement more thorough background checks. On abortion, I think we all agree that it is terrible. On foreign policy, there is no doubt that Israel preferred (which should be our preference) DJT over biden. Thats because Republicans are far more pro-Israel then are democrats. (Would probably be safe for you guys to sit out on this one). Republicans love america, Leftist universities teach their students to hate it. Democrats support the lunacy of transgenderism, want to normalize it among children. Democrats blame the failure of POC on some sort of systemic racism, which is not only garbage, but is harmful to POC as it distracts from the real issues at hand. Additionally this has led to the insane Cancel Culture we have come to. So…this is why I support the Republican party. Now I would like for you liberals to answer 3 questions.
-What are the cons of supporting Republicans?
-What is it about the Democrat Party that garners your support?
-And does it really outweigh the ridiculous things democrats support(things we agree on, transgenderism. abortion, ect…)
Irrelevant replies would be those that are based on something controversial that a specific Republican said, or something related to “stealing elections” or “being involved in insurrection”…Yserbius, what are talking about? Firstly, as Ive said many times, from Dr Harvey Risch, nearly half of cancer treatments never underwent the golden standard double blind trials. (No, i cant verify that myself, but I’d assume he’s telling the truth on that, being thats it’s presumably easy to verify for any doctor or expert.) So no, thats not moving the goalpost. But in reality, this is irrelevant, because even if you are to tell that it IS necessary for the Golden standard trials, WHY HAVENT THEY BEEN PREFORMED?? You say it has? Then show me. Show me the study that utilized the Zelenko protocol correctly. There were abolutely 0 preminary studies that showed the Zelenko protocol ineffective. 0. I’ll leave this link https://www
DOT sciencedirect DOT com/science/article/pii/S0924857920304258?via%3Dihub
Catch yourself-I’ll say with a fair amount of confidence that the HCQ had nothing to do with you recovery. HCQ was never promoted to be given in your situation. But imagine this. Imagine, BEFORE you were hospitalized, your didnt just take HCQ, but you took it in accordance with the Zelenko protocol. You didnt recover 2 months later, rather you recovered 6 hrs later. Would you maybe then connect the dots? Because this counterargument that many have used, that “people recover after drinking a cup of water”(meaning to say that there is no evidence HCQ helped the recovery) is faulty. Because yes, people do recover with no treatment. But do any of you know anyone that reached the point of fever, and shortness of breath, and were symptom free hours later? The only ones ive heard of, are those who’ve used the Zelenko protocol. At the end of the day, my questions have gone unanswered.
-how studies that used extremely high doses can used as proof hydroxychloroquine is dangerous when given in low dosage.
-how studies performed on hospitalized patients can be used as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when utilized in an outpatient setting
-how studies that exclude zinc can be as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when given with zinc.
-Why there hasnt been any golden standard studies preformed by fauci and co., that used the Zelenko protocol.
-How a completely fraudulent study was allowed to be published in the Lancet and NEJM. (this was the study that caused many trials around the world to be paused, and never resumed.)ENS, your reply is ridiculous and irrelevant. No Republican is calling for the cancelation of non trump-supporting Republican private citizens. And in regard to Trump supporters getting canceled, it doesnt take “being involved in insurrection” to be canceled. Merely posting something on your social media account, which doesnt align with progressive views, is grounds for cancelation by the left. This is not so complicated.
Gh, getting rid of politicians who don’t represent you isn’t “cancel culture”. Causing random citizens to lose their jobs and ruin their life because they hold a different political view, that is cancel culture.
Charlie, “Only Trumpies think that a President is a dictator.”-im old enough to remember democrats calling our last president a dictator for 4yrs. About the vaccine, the msg should be that once the high risk population is vaccinated, and the numbers are dropping, we will rapidly be able to return to normal. Not a msg of doom and gloom, where we won’t be able to return to normal for at least a year. Any msg that may discourage people from vaccinating is doing more harm than good. Oh and btw charlie, I’d love for you to join our conversation at https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/does-ywn-make-money-from-promoting-the-vaccines Always wanna learn from the experts.
You are right that there are no complete golden standard studies showing such, however, at the same time there were no golden standard studies performed (correctly) at all. Which begs the question. Why not. You say, “The accusation that there’s some sort of grand conspiracy preventing doctors from talking about a potential cure for COVID-19 is utterly insane.” If it’s utterly insane, then my questions should be easily answered. I’ve been looking for answers for almost a year. I’ve asked for them to be answered here, in YWNCR, but all I’ve heard is crickets.
yserbius, firstly, I will repeat, that in situations where the HCQ was given correctly (correctly defined as in the manner in which “pro-HCQ” said it should be given), those prescribing it saw 80-90% less death than the rest of the population. Low dose, with zinc and azithromycin, and pre-hospital. Your main issue shouldnt be some people touting it as a “miracle cure”, (which it may be), your main issue should be how my questions regarding HCQ have not been answered. Because if my questions cannot in fact be answered, then we may just have a genocide on our hands. A genocide perpetrated by people who value money and political gain over human life. Oh and btw, I dont know why HCQ has to be labeled a “miracle cure”, thereby portraying those who advocate for its use, as nutjobs. Yes, we have many “miracle cures”, for many diseases, and if HCQ works, it works. Not more of a “miracle” than any other medicine.
Yserbius, are you even bothering to read what you are copy-pasting?? The 6.5% difference is between those treated with HCQ+AZ and those treated with nothing. (according to your post) No zinc here. Oh, and btw, Im pretty sure your math is off, from 26.4%, down to 20.1% would be a 23.9% reduction in death. And writing your statement in bold letters doesnt give it any more merit. Now, I never said HCQ is an alternative to the vaccine. Now that we have the vaccine, I think everyone that is at a somewhat risk, should take it. The vaccine is approx 95% effective. The doctors that have used HCQ in the way, and in the setting they said would be effective, have seen around 80-90% less death in the patients they treated compared to the rest of the population. But this is really irrelevant, what is really concerning me, is the unanswered questions i posted above. I may not have a PHD slapped next to my name, but I do have 2 brain cells to rub together.
Ubi, better for leftist liberals, who love that there is one less conservative voice to oppose their own opinions…
Yserbius, in saying, “you don’t trust expert opinion or the scientific process”, you are completely gaslighting the issue, as there are hundreds, if not thousands, (if not tens of thousands) of doctors around the world that would agree with my view on HCQ. And I did respond, in the thread “https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/new-vid-w-zelenko”, post#1946074, I’ll copy paste-Still don’t know where you get the 5% number. On the henry ford study-“In a large-scale retrospective analysis of 2,541 patients hospitalized between March 10 and May 2, 2020 across the system’s six hospitals, the study found 13% of those treated with hydroxychloroquine alone died compared to 26.4% not treated with hydroxychloroquine. None of the patients had documented serious heart abnormalities; however, patients were monitored for a heart condition routinely pointed to as a reason to avoid the drug as a treatment for COVID-19.” yserbius, that’s not 5% less, that about 50% less. So yes, I responded to you, but none of my questions have been answered. I’ll wait very patiently.
To be clear, because I know some people who have a different opinion than mine will immediately jump to conclusions, I am NOT anti-vax, and I dont believe YWN is promoting the vaccine for money. (The same way I dont think Rabbonim are promoting it for money…)
Now, Avrah, Hydroxychloroquine is a generic drug, nobody is making any money off that, whereas the Billions of dollars have been paid for the vaccines.
Charlie, we’ve had this argument before, the last we left off, I asked you a couple questions, you then disappeared from YWNCR for a couple weeks. I’ll copy paste my post #1910906 in thread https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/really-disappointing-clinical-trial-results
“Charlie it would be interesting to see you try and actually put forth a logical argument instead of touting your credentials. You try to discredit my arguments by stating I have no clinical experience(100% true). Your credentials are irrelevant; you can be fauci himself. It’s irrelevant because for one: all that I’ve said has been stated by medical experts, at least some(if not all) of whom have significantly more knowledge and experience with hydroxychloroquine. Secondly: you fail to present any counterargument whatsoever. You seem very confident that hydroxychloroquine has been debunked. I want to understand how an expert with his name on 180 scientific publications came to this conclusion. Id also assume you believe hydroxychloroquine is dangerous. If so please explain what led to that conclusion. Because all due respect, I have a feeling that the reason you refrain from actually debating is because you understand that the only thing you have is credentials; not facts. Just tell me if I’m wrong on that.
-explain to me how studies that used extremely high doses can used as proof hydroxychloroquine is dangerous when given in low dosage
-explain to me how studies performed on hospitalized patients can be used as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when utilized in an outpatient setting
-explain to me how studies that exclude zinc can be as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when given with zinc
These are not my questions. These questions can be attributed to many hundreds of doctors around the country. But you are the expert. Surely you can answer these questions with ease. I’ll wait patiently.”Ok ctlawyer , you’ve convinced me!🙄
From Harav Dovid Cohen’s Rebbitzen, “Bh the Rav is doing beautifully. Thank you to everyone for the tefillos. The Rav is talking, laughing, and giving droshos to the hospital, thanking them for all their great work.”
This was on Feb 17.Joe Biden and many democrats are decent-in rhetoric, and rhetoric only.
Ctlawyer, still curious why you view Rush as an “offensive bigot.”
Alright gh, try and see if the mods approve. I have seen a supposed quote belonging to rush, which spoke of how “in the times of slavery, at least there weren’t dangerous thugs roaming the street… ” something obviously racist along those lines-but was completely made up, Rush never said it. Think it was the liberal Snopes that rated it false. But the left, being the left, took it and ran..
Ctlawyer, an “offensive bigot”? How’s that? Too easy to toss around disgusting insults these days…
The guy was a legend whether you agreed with his political views or not …