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86 -90 and 101 – 110 inclusive.
Avi: It most certainly has not been.
What does “Admor” stand for? And who uses that title other than Rebbes? (I noticed some Sefardishe Rabbonim also being referred to as Admor.)
Avi: Jews were entitled to soveirgnty in EY while the Beis Hamikdash stood. Hence what the original Chashmonoim did to the Greeks was correct. That entitlement to soveirgnty ended with the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash.
What the later Chashmonoim did was incorrect and has no bearing on the original Chashmonoim (their forefathers) from the Chanukah story.
Sam2: Rav Chaim is one source already mentioned. So sources aren’t lacking.
yichsdik: The Zionists kidnapped Teimani children in order to shmad them. And while you are correct that Arabs persecuted Jews sporadically through history (after all we were still in golus anywhere), compared to their European Jewish brethren they were relatively unmolested by comparison through the centuries.
Sam: Broadway shows have pritzus. How could you find them unobjectionable?
Novominsk has a big Yeshiva. The Rebbe wears a shtraimel. He is a talmid of Yeshiva Chaim Berlin.
Chazal criticized the Chashmonoim for assuming soveirgnty as they were Kohanim and not from Shevet Yehuda. The fact that later the family included anti-Torah leaders is a bad thing, not a good thing.
What Is Zionism?
Look at these statements and guess who made them:
The Jews are a non-people, a non-nation – non-men, indeed.
Jews have taken on a number of antisocial characteristics.
Jewish life is a dog’s life that evokes disgust.
Jews are like filthy dogs, inhuman dogs.
The Nazis? The Ku Klux Klan? David Duke?
No. Those statements were made by early Zionists and Maskilim. The second one was said by Herzl. That’s why they created Zionism. They were unhappy with the traditional Jewish “nation” (and its despised state among the nations) so they strove to get rid of it and replace it with a new one. A real one. One that would be “normal” – like the Goyishe nations.
Their goal was to re-define the very meaning of a Jew and the Jewish nation.
Rav Avigdor Miller ZTL describes it as follows:
What Haman and Titus could not do, the Israelis are attempting. The first could only attempt to destroy the physical existence of Israel, but the State of Israel is attempting to counterfeit the term Jew and to erase all boundaries between Jew and non-Jew (Sing You Righteous, p. 20).
The way they sought to accomplish this was through rewriting national history, including creating new national heroes, allies and enemies, politics, aspirations, culture, even a new language, and re-educating the masses, especially the youth who they tried very hard to separate, culturally and psychologically, from their parents. They would leverage thousands of years of Jewish history and religion, and exploit them to give an illusion of historical momentum to their newly created nationality. And, of course, they would also use plain force of arms to make sure that the New Hebrew replaced the old religious Jew (as in the case of the children of Tehran). They learned these tried-and-true methods from other people who used them or variations thereof, including the Bolsheviks /Communists.
Josh, you need to get your story straight. The Chashmonoim from the Chanukah story were all pro Torah.
No toilets.
Isn’t 11 the max? IOW, someone who unfortunately had mishaps here and there could get less than 11 months.
Gehenim is 11 months.
Old age?
Yitay: You added that to the UD?
Syag: What do you mean by “did”?
Chareidim do not follow any specific teachings of any specific Rebbi, nor do they believe in any specific values not already in the Torah. Chasidim follow the specific teachings of the Baal Shem Tov and his disciples; Telzers follow the teachings and Minhagim of the Telzer Yeshiva; the Mussar movement was started by Rav Yisroel Salanter – but “Chareidi”? There was no beginning to “Chareidism” except on Har Sinai; no particular person whose teachings they follow except Moshe Rabbeinu, and no particular Minhagim they perform.
So there really is no such thing as a “Chareidi.” Those who people refer to as “Chareidim” have mostly never referred to themselves as such – in America you can go to Yeshiva from Kindergarten through Kollel and you will most probably never hear “we are Chareidi,” and you may even never hear the term used at all.
And because words matter – it’s a strange thing but people often tend to form impressions of reality based on words and phrases rather than creating words and phrases that reflect reality – I do not use the term “Chareidi” because by giving generic, default Judaism a label it conceals the fact that this Judaism is in fact the generic and default.
optimusprime: It was repeated publicly and on numerous occasions in front of hundreds of people by both Rav Gorelick zt’l — who heard it directly from the Chofetz Chaim — and by Rav Berel zt’l. And this is widely known and can be testified and verified as such by simply getting in touch with many long-time talmidim of either Rav Gorelick or Rav Berel. It is hardly a secret.
Gavra: My question was — as a Torah believing Jew — does he believe the evolutionary belief that he descends from apes.
Do you believe that belief is compatible with believing the Torah?
Yserbius: You accept the evolutionary theory that your zaidy was an ape?
Between the US, EY, and Europe, Satmar has over 200,000 Chasidim.
The Rosh Yeshiva of YU, HaRav Yeruchem Gorelick ZT’L, personally was present and directly heard from the Chofetz Chaim’s own mouth say Kook Shmook derogatorily. He was at the CC with his father who was a talmid of the CC. And Rav Gorelick repeated this story publicly frequently. (Including at the Yeshiva of South Fallsburg, where his son was Rosh Yeshiva.) As did The Rov ZT’L (Rav Berel Soloveitchik ZT’L) relate this story publicly.
That story was told over first hand in public countless times by Rav Gorelick, and Rav Berel Soloveichik in Brisk of Yerushalayim used to tell it to his Talmidim as an example of what the Chofetz Chaim held of Rav Kook.
This isn’t any secret and can be confirmed by numerous talmidim of theirs first-hand. Btw, who is “AJ”?
It’s an issue of how to fight it. Those other Gedolim, such as Rav Ahron Kotler for example, opposed Zionism just as much as they did before the war. They just held that after ’48, the battle to prevent Israel from coming into existence is lost, the bad guys won, and we now need to fight Zionism on a different front. The way to do that is to try to obtain Hatzolah Purtah. If we cannot prevent Israel from coming into existence, let’s try to make sure it does minimal damage to Judaism. Frum Jews need to join the government and use whatever leverage the frum community has at its disposal to prevent bad decrees and to ensure the rights and the flourishing of the frum community. They held that joining the State was the best was to oppose Zionism and its bad effects. What changed was, before the State we had to oppose having anything to do with the Zionists. After the State, their goals are already accomplished, so now the best way to fight them is to join their State and make sure they don’t do more damage than necessary.
The Satmar Rebbe held that such an approach is not Hatzolah Purtah but rather makes you an accessory to the crime after the fact. He held that we still need to have nothing to do with the Zionists including joining their state.
Feif: Nothing unusual about different shittas amonst gedolim.
The only thing the Torah world weren’t mekabel from the SR’s position on this issue was how to deal with the State after-the-fact. Satmar and some others don’t vote in Israeli elections and do not accept any funding from the government, even though their schools are legally entitled to that money. Most of the frum velt does vote and accept government money. That’s the only fundamental difference of opinion. The gedolim otherwise fully agree with the SR’s position on Zionism.
And while one godol called R. Kook a rasha gamur and another godol called him an apikorus, as quoted above, the gedolim had effusive and unrelenting high praise for the SR.
gavra: I shared quotes of multiple Gedolim about the Satmar Rebbe and about Rav Kook. Compare the quotes above about each of them. The difference in opinion of the Gedolim about each of them is greater than the Atlantic. The rebbe was called a giant in Torah AND midos by the LITVISHE gedolim. The last of the lions. A remnant from the previous doros.
I guess Feif Un will be telling us when Rav Elyashev makes a mistake.
Avi: Your stories are simply inaccurate. For example, your story about the CC at the Aguda convention originates from Simcha Raz’s notoriously unreliable biography on Rav Kook. In it, Raz writes many distortions, by omission and commission. He indicates, falsely, that the Gedolei Yisroel in general held of R. Kook and it was merely Kanaim who opposed him, which is clearly false. In the famous letter of the Imrei Emes about R. Kook, he omitted the part of the letter where he says that R. Kook “says about Tameh that it is Tahor and Tahor that it is Tameh”, as well as other parts, giving a totally wrong idea of what the letter said. (Btw, the Imrei Emes (Gerrer Rebbe) claimed to have had a letter form Rav Kook where he says he regrets many of the things he said, including the statements about Apikorsim being holy. The problem is that even so, his seforim still contain those “pre-teshuva” teachings, and it is that Rav Kook – the one described in his seforim, the one that everyone knows of, that we are discussing here, not the private, repented one. )
As far as the Chofetz Chaim — From “Mishkenos Harayim” 3:1-108:
“Rav kook said about the opening of the Hebrew University, that it is a fulfillment of kimitzion etc. – immediately the gedolim in Poland and Russian organized a protest against this chilul hashem – and the chofezt chaim came in and said, “kook Shmook!” and then he left.” (As related by Rav Berel Sooveitchik zt’l.)
When the Chofetz chaim heard what Rav Kook said about Hebrew U, he trembled, and started walking back and forth and said “Kook shmook! Kook shmook!”, and so he continued for a long while.”
And the Chofetz Chaim’s statement is mild compared to what other Gedolim have said about him. Particularly relevant in this context is a letter by Rav Elchonon Wasserman to Rav Yosef Zvi Dushinsky, printed in Kovetz Maamarim, of which a facsimile of his Ksav Yad is readily accessible, where he refers to R. Kook as a “rasha gamur.” This was the eternally loyal Talmid of the Chofetz Chaim, who spent his life disseminating his Rebbi’s Torahs. (When the Chofetz Chaim was considering moving to EY, Rav Chaim Ozer asked him who will take care of Klall Yisroel in Chutz Laaretz if he leaves. The Chofetz Chaim answered, “What do you mean? You have Reb Elchonon!”)
So you have Rav Yosef Chaim Zonenfeld’s statement that he was “drunk on ahavas yisroel” and therefore we should take what he says as if it came form a drunkard” to the Chofetz Chaim’s “Kook shmook” – to the Satmar Rav’s psak in a Teshuva to Rav Yosef Chaim declaring him an Apikores and his halachic rulings assur to follow across the board.
The following is based on the sefer by R’ Shimon Finkelman shlit”a “Five Great Leaders” (page 82):
Ten years following the Balfour Declaration, when asked to clarify his opinion, R’ Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTVK”L explained:
Back in Pressburg (under the Chasam Sofer ZTVK”L and then under the Ksav Sofer ZTVK”L), every year a “Purim Rav” was selected. It is forbidden to pasken halacha even after a little drink. On Purim, everyone drinks so who will pasken an urgent sheilah? This is where the Purim Rav steps in. The Purim Rav, someone who was familiar with every-day halachos and who would remain sober on Purim, was “on call” in the event that an urgent question came up. R’ Yosef Chaim ZTL then said that this is how he views his purpose in the current times. After the Balfour Declaration came out and the Zionists began gaining control over Jewish matters in E”Y, many Jews, rabbanim included, became inebriated by the sheker-dik joy that arose. The yearning for Geulah was warped into viewing Zionism as the beginnning of Geulah. But HKB”H, explained R’ Yosef Chaim, has granted him the wisdom to remain sober and to not get swept up in the toxic winds of Zionism. He stated that in our history, there has never subsisted such a horrible threat to the existence of Klal Yisroel as Zionism, a movement that wishes to destroy our mesorah from Sinai. R’ Yosef Chaim continued: someone once asked him why he felt no happiness over the Balfour Declaration. He replied: “The drunk also wonders why everyone else isn’t joining him in his revelry. I am not drunk, and therefore I cannot rejoice”.
AOM: Where do you come off insinuating that Israel is outside of golus? It most certainly is not. And when Yidden are suffering in golus they are suffering in Israel as well. Indeed, since its creation there has been more golus suffering by yidden inside the State than outside it. And unless you claim to be a prophet, there is no way for you to predict it will “hit the fan” any less inside the State. It could even hit much worse inside. Don’t presume the Zionists are some sort of safehaven.
The Satmar Rebbe zt’l and Rav Elazar Menachem Man Shach zt’l.
If you want to know what the Gedolim said of Rav Kook, here are some examples:
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If you want to know what the Gedolim said of the Satmar Rebbe, here are some examples:
Rav Yitzchok Hutner zt’l:
Rav Ahron Kotler zt’l:
Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky zt’l: