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I see the mashichist position as kfira or bordering kfira.
We have to believe in the 13 ikarim, one of which is bee’as haMoschiach. Now if somebody would say that Bee’as haMoschiach means eating a pickle, and therefore if you simply believe in eating pickles you have fulfilled this ikar, than he would be promoting kfira, because through this, people would no longer believe in the true meaning of bee’as haMoschiach.
Now to say that believing in bee’as haMoschiach means to believe that a person who died in 1994 is really alive, and that fictitious being is Moschiach , means that they don’t believe in the ikar by it’s true meaning, but only by it’s nonsensical meaning. So that makes them kofrim in bee’as haMoschiach.
The famous gemara about Hillell explaining why people from different places have different features.
A Jew may not worship idols. But he may be machnif lohem. So he may give them gifts on their holiday, even a holiday like Xmass. That doesn’t constitute idol worship. That is the halacha.
יו”ד קמ”ח
ולכן אם נכנס לעיר ומצאם שמחים ביום חגם ישמח עמהם משום איבה דהוי כמחניף להם ומ”מ בעל נפש ירחיק מלשמוח עמהם אם יוכל לעשות שלא יהיה לו איבהA Jew may not worship idols. But he may be machnif lohem. So he may give them gifts on their holiday, even a holiday like Xmass. That doesn’t constitute idol worship. That’s the halacha.
יו”ד קמ”ח
ולכן אם נכנס לעיר ומצאם שמחים ביום חגם ישמח עמהם משום איבה דהוי כמחניף להם ומ”מ בעל נפש ירחיק מלשמוח עמהם אם יוכל לעשות שלא יהיה לו איבהJoseph,
‘Do you think Rav Elyashiv, Rav Chaim, Rav Shach, the Steipler, the Chazon Ish, Rav Moshe, the Satmar Rebbe, the Gerrer Rebbe, Rav Aharon, the Chofetz Chaim, and most others in their category were friends with their Rebbetzins?’
By my definition, yes.Avram in MD
Thank you. It’s nice to be heard.
Avram in MD
Marriage is a union with a purpose. The essential purpose is to give the person his completeness. This, however, is achieved as they unite to fulfill life’s specific goals and purposes. They are presented with all of life’s activities and challenges, and as they work together as a union in all that life brings, they relate with each other and grow to become a unit of completeness in the sense of being a complete human being, with all of the potential human positive qualities being realized. As they function this way together, they need to be true friends. They need to make sure their other half is content and well in every sense possible. If they don’t so then they are shooting their own selves in the foot, so to speak. As they function as a union, united in purpose, and complete loyalty and with this true friendship, they will tremendously enjoy working together. Working together with that type of unity and friendship is pleasurable beyond anything else. But they are not together in recreation, (except to the extent that that’s what they believe is needed to help achieve the goals) but together in purpose. That is true togetherness. Whereas togetherness in recreation is not really togetherness, because basically everyone is only thinking about his or her own good time. So while they don’t share recreational interests, since they share goals, that’s where the friendship kicks in, and they will enjoy each others company far more that simply by sharing the same taste in fun activities.As a side point, my understanding is that Joseph is asking because he wants to know what to look for in a shidduch. I think it’s unfair to him, and potentially damaging, to give the impression that it’s about finding a buddy for recreation, or even partly about that. That’s not a good message for a person looking for a shidduch and also not for married person. In a shidduch they should be looking for a fine person with whom they would have a common goal and with whom they could have a caring and growing relationship.
zaltvasser
In most cases, men and women don’t have the same interests and pleasures. It’s unfair and unrealistic to crate an expectation which isn’t often the case. And the pursuit of it is also unhealthy. If it’s there, then it’s maybe a bonus. They might however enjoy each others company even without sharing interests. I can explain this but it’s rather lengthy and technical, Suffice it to say that in looking for a shidduch, one should not be looking for sharing recreational interests, as long as their background and personalities are basically compatible and they share values, not pleasures. They should be looking for a fine person with whom they would have a common goal and with whom they could have a caring and growing relationship.Joseph. If this is merely a question of semantics, I don’t know how important that is, as long as we know the essence of the relationship even if we don’t know exactly what word to use. I will say however, that since we say the bracha Asher boro sason vesimcha …. VERAYUS (which means friendship), and presumably it’s talking about what elements should be present in the marriage, it is therefore important to define what is the essance of that rayus. The person from shul or school may be fun company, but that doesn’t mean they won’t betray you at the smallest whim of theirs, and it certainly doesn;t mean that they care and will go out of their way for you. I can’t imagine that just the fun is enough to be worthy of the title rayus – friendship. My definition of friend isn’t applicable only to a spouse. It’s applicable to any person’s who genuinely cares. That is true friendship. Even if they don’t enjoy the same recreational activities. We find that a person who learns Torah lishma becomes a person who cares genuinely about others, as we say in Pirkay Avos (6,1) that such a person who learns Torah lishma is in fact called a raya (friend). Do you think it means that this person will join you to golf? It’s important to be able to assess who your real friends are.
Yes, your spouse should be your best friend, by a particular definition of friend. If friend means someone with whom you share hobbies and recreational interests, then the answer is no, your spouse doesn’t have to be your best friend. If a friend means someone who has committed to you to care about you, your happiness, success and well being, then the answer yes your spouse should be your best friend. And you should also be your spouse’s best friend. Marriage is a commitment to being devoted to each other. And that, in a nutshell, is what makes a marriage good. The more you adhere to that principal, the better the marriage will be.
It isn’t cruel to use fur. Tzadikim who were full of kindness and compassion have used furs throughout the generations.
I just noticed this thread so I didn’t see everything that was already said, so pardon me if i’m being redundant.
Not every child can necessarily be the gadol hador, nor is that a goal at all. Gadol hador is a competitive title, meaning greater than other people. That has nothing to do with doing the ratzon Hashem and being an ehrlicher Yid. If you’re in it for the gaava of having a son that’s better than other people’s children, than you are approaching chinuch with a anti Torah hashkafa, and it will not bring good results. Remember the story of Acher? We are supposed to learn something from that story. The lesson is chinuch with motives which aren’t pure will bring bad results.
If you mean to ask a correct and appropriate question, then you should be asking ‘How can I raise my children to fulfill their potential to the most possible?’
The answer is give them lots and lots of love and positive reinforcement. Make sure they are always feeling good about themselves.
Excessive demands could ruin this so be careful. Very careful, more careful than you realize, because it is apparent from your question that you are heading for a disaster in this very area for this reason of making them feel inadequate. If chas vesholom they will feel inadequate and bad about themselves, they will fail for sure.
You and I are not Rabainu Gershom. You need to know your place. Furs have been used throughout all of the generations and no rabbis forbade it. That means they didn’t feel it’s wrong. So nothing changed and it isn’t wrong, period.
I have nothing against slavery, per se. Just we may not kidnap and capture people against their will, needless to say. But if a person want to sell himself as a slave, that would be fine if it would be legal in our country, necause we must abide by the laws of the country we live in. There are rules in The Torah about how to treat a slave.
Aishes Yefas Toar, is not a relevant discussion because we don’t have the situation today, which gives the possibility of it. Also Aishes Yefas Toar was always known to be a bad thing and only mutar as the biggest bidieved.
zahavasdad
Don’t be so certain. That’s the main problem today. They make issurim of things that aren’t assur but they therefore are matir things that are truly assur. Stealing, cheating, for these we find loophles, because everything is one big chulent with no differentiation between mutar and assur. So for everything we can get a heter because it’s a mishmash with things that are mutar to begin with.
No, that’s not the way. We must draw a clear line between mutar and assur. If someone want’s to be machmir, then he should clearly know that’s it is just a chumra, and he can’t impose it on others or even expect others to have that chumra.
The famous Yaakov Yosef Herman of All for The Boss was a furrier.
I have a little problem with this discussion.
Do we really believe that we are supposed to rule on this as if it s a new shayla. You know, the world has been around for thousands of years, and The Torah has also been with our people for thousands of years. There have been mane great Torah scholars over the years. The fur industry has also been around for thousands of years. So why are we pretending that we need to make up rulings on this ancient subject which already has all the ruling necessary. Gedolim throughout the generations have worn furs and allowed others to wear them. Have you seen the famous painting of The Chasam Sofer? He’s wearing a fur hat. And so too many many others. So who is the person here who thinks he is going to be a bigger gadol baTorah than any gadol Klal Yisroel ever had? Who thinks he should question their rulings.
So this conversation is silly, conceited and ridiculous.
(Ecclesiastes) ראה חיים עם האשה אשר אהבת
Hashem made us want a woman so that we would willingly afterwards put in the necessary work to make a life with her.If she not especially a mirshaas, which although exists, is an unusual exception to the rule, then she has maalos and chesronos. That’s fine. Make a life with her and make sure to grow in marriage. Through having a partner, you will more easily be able to recognize what you need to better yourself in. So will she. If you will grow then she will also. If you will be obstinate and unwilling to change, she will be a klavta. But she’s not really a klavta, but that is her ‘kenegdo’ role.
Torah is my drug of choice. I’m thoroughly addicted.
MTAB
“Read the shema, if you violate the commandments i will toss you out! That applies to the fry not the frum.”Are you sure about that? I don’t know if the fry are given the ‘asher bha’avoso vehochachtiv beshevet anashim uvenigai benay adam’ treatment, which is for children who still behave like children but err. Fry have distanced themselves to the point that they are like the goyim who do the expelling, not the Yidden who are expelled. FYI we are still in Galus, and maybe the suffering under the Zionist state is the final stage of our galus. If it would be Arabs who created a state there and make gezairos giyus, you wouldn’t think of demonstrating this way. As I said a bunch of posts ago, you think we can be heimish with Zionist baryonim because they’re our brothers. It seems I’m less of a Zionist than you.
MTAB
“The thief is the zionist state. They stole from Judaism, stole the language, stole the symbols, they even stole tanach as their literature even though they don’t listen to its call for teshuva. They wanted a country and every country needs language and symbols so they stole from the Orthodox. And now they won’t let the Orthodox be Orthodox.”Many people who lack intellectual honesty and the ability to really hear another opinion, would comfortably sit and dismiss your words as fanatic paranoia, or even worse, deliberate lies, but not I. I hear your heartfelt pain and I am ashamed of myself that I have become desensitized to the adulteration of Tanach and Lashon Kodesh etc.
I could easily just continue arguing my point, and maybe even win (or maybe not), without even stopping to admit that while my logic may be logical, it has not taken into account what you are saying here, and what the Jewish heart should be pained about. Truthfully, I must therefore, in light of what you are saying here which I didn’t really think of properly until now, restart to think over the issue from scratch with bearing in mind what you are saying here, and see what conclusion I’ll come to then, and I can’t just assume that I’ll certainly be able to maintain my logical logic as I had from the beginning.
That much intellectual honesty, I do have.
tiawd
An ancient Indian saying. Never attack someone, because for all you know he might have sent you a compliment which you have not yet received.
Your idea to form a communal jail chabura, to accommodate both the police AND the deserters, is nothing short of brilliant (Another compliment – beware)
One of the things The Chasam Sofer was fighting against in his war against Reform, was changing the language of davening. He fought against changes even that were not against halacha. And he fought it fiercely.
tiawd
Some people you give a compliment and they return an insult.
Just kidding.
You have taken my words out of their intended context. I’m not saying you have lo leave per se. I’m saying that if the choices are to either act out or live a Torah-less lifestyle, one should instead leave. I am, however, not the who contended that there is no choice of living a Torah life there and not acting out. I quote a wise man (mysef) “But don’t stay if a requirement of living there is committing gezel against regular everyday people.”You, however, seem to be saying of your own accord that “the army right now is no place for a ben Torah,” and you are saying ” we can’t be part of it.”
So then if all residents of Israel are being forced to be part of it, part of a place which is NOT for a ben Torah, should he not rather leave, then be in a situation which would undermine and ruin his Torah values and taint him beyond repair?
DaasYochid
Thank you. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
(Now don’t start attacking me as a repayment for my compliment, as seems to be the custom here.)
tiawd
I wish I would have said that!
MTAB
Burning cars of innocent random people? How does stealing from those innocent people address the aggressors of the anti Torah regime? That is simple misplaced aggression and simple gezel.I am not saying the land is rightfully belonging to the baryonim. I’m saying that we need to face the matzius and govern our plans and actions accordingly. It seems that you basically agree with me, since you say that you were foolish to make aliya. I just go a step further. I say that since you can’t live there, leave. But don’t stay if a requirement of living there is committing gezel against regular everyday people.
Avrohom Haivri
“About blocking streets and Gezel Zman etc. Did you have the same concerns when the Belzer Chasuna or Gerrer Chasuna blocked the whole Yerushalayim ? What about Hachnosas sefer Torah which blocks streets?”These people are not deliberately trying to disturb. They are just conducting their activities for the sake of those activities, and the public is accommodating them. In a society, we all need to accommodate each other to conduct the activities that are important to each person or group. So people work together to accommodate and they plan things accordingly, each person taking every other person into account.
In these protests though, the sole intention is exactly to disturb and disrupt. It’s not a side effect which is unintended but unavoidable. It’s the purpose. That’s the means they are using to make their point. There is no request for accommodation. There is a demand for putting up with menace.
See the difference?
MTAB
Thank you for your clear articulate post.
I agree that we may not judge our brothers in Israel for all the reasons you mentioned plus more. But we may judge any activity without judging the people.I want to make 2 points.
1. What would you say if the means used to demonstrate would be burning random cars. That’s certainly gezel, right? would anything you mentioned in your argument justify that? Presumably not. Well, this what they are doing is basically the same.2. Just imagine if there would e a mandatory draft in the USA, in which any Yeshiva bachur could be drafted, and he would immediately lose his innocence forever and never be the same. Do you think we would take the liberty to demonstrate this way? But in Israel, we are making an assumption, that the Zionist government are our brothers so we can be heimish and take liberties to act out. The fact is that from the time the state was formed it required an army which could not realistically have been a group of b’nei Torah. So, yes, they took over the land without asking the charedi population who had already been living there. But that’s a bygone and we can’t turn back the clock. Now the question remains what do you do? If you live there, you are certainly in need of army protection, and you are benefiting endlessly from the army. So you are deliberately taking benefit from people who are living in a way against The Torah. You are actually benefiting from the very actions that are against The Torah, meaning the anti Torah lifestyle that is the army. That is equivalent to supporting and condoning their actions. If you truly believe that a Jew may not live that way, then how could you be relying and receiving this benefit from them, as they are basically our shluchim in this because we need them to be doing it. It’s like the rosh yeshiva who didn’t allow yeshiva bachurim to drive but always took hitches from boys who violated the rule. That’s hypocrisy. Yes, our land was taken over by people who are living a Torah-less life, and who rely on that lifestyle for the very existence and survival of the people. So that leaves us no honest choice but to either stop benefiting from them or to leave the country. Stopping benefiting means not simply not taking money, because there’s is still the huge benefit of the military protection. So not benefiting means not taking ANY freebies, in other words doing our share in the army. OR MOVE AWAY!
But to live there and be a menace and a gazlan to the society at large?
The protesters are also accomplishing another thing. Until now, demonstration, when conducted in a reasonable and peaceful fashion, did serve a useful purpose in getting frum voices heard in Israel. But now that they are demonstrating in this vicious way and angering everybody with it, they are putting demonstrations in such a bad light that they have totally destroyed the prospect of ever again utilizing the means of any sort of demonstration, even peaceful.
So the parents were wrong. So the child is chayav misa?
zahavasdad
I’m not asking. I’m clearly saying that we don’t follow anyone, even a gadol, to chas vesholom violate The Torah. I’m also saying that we need to have the ability to think with our own brain and heart.
Gadolhadorah
Why are people following this individual? What happened to their sechel? But it’s this Daas Torah agenda which is keneged Hatorah, which says submit your brains to other mortals and don’t think. We all know the expression ‘I was just following orders.’Gadolhadorah
The problem is that we the people have been conditioned to keep our mouths shut. We have had our brains and hearts removed through a particular agenda knows as the Daas Torah agenda. There are a few people to whom we have all handed over our humanity. Just watch how anyone who doesn’t step into line is called an apikores. The Baal Hatania says that gedolay Hatora shouldn’t profess to know other subjects such as politics or business, subjects which they haven’t studied and in which they have no expertise. The reason that we respect them is because they devoted their lives to study Torah, and therefore we shouldn’t expect them to be jacks of all trades to give advice on other issues. Usually the business advice of a secular businessman will be better advice than that of a great rabbi.
Freddyfish
“Who do you hold like when there’s a machlokes gedolim ? Whoever you want?!?!?!?”The Satmarer Rebbe ZT”L said on many occasions that we have no leaders in our times whom we can follow afilu al yemin shehu smoll.
That doesn’t mean chas vesholom that we judge our Rebbees, because it really isn’t up to understand what misconception brought the Rebbee to make the error. But we may not do something which we know is ossur and for which we have no way of reconciling a psak contrary to that.