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mp, we know you hate to take on any real opinion in any matter, thats not a chiddush to us. what is a chiddush is that your american morals, your western respect for others, can allow you to be totally ambiguous in regards to a matter that our rabbonim have spoken on. why cant you allow yourself the torahs view on something.
yes it does. people who act upon taavos or make them known should be ostracized. why does your policy of appeasement end there? if someone were to make known that they enjoyed the company of children, would you be silent? or ostracize them. I know what i would do. if a person has a problem, something inside them that doesnt fit in with the torahs framework, (except li’inyan oinshim) they should kep it inside them, and seek therapy. not proudly tell the world the worst corruptions of the mind and soul.
protest against people that are knowingly feering shello al pi derech ahtorah! Oh, that doesnt qualify, must not be importnant.
go zees go.
1. a neighborhood in which the majority, or really nearly all, of the people who live there have a standard of dress and action have the right to expect it to be maintained. the world isnt america, and isnt mishubad to be michabed every person who wants to shtell their krumme ideas.
2. being in proximity isnt taaruvos, obviously, and thats obviously not what the op was broaching. the problem of shmoozing or having to deal with being squished up against a sem girl was the original post, as i understand.
mdd- ive no idea what you mean to shtel tzu.
zdad- your ability to bring in things with no shaychis is astounding.
this isnt jew on jew hatred. this is jews hating things that upset Hashem. or more accurately jews hating what another jew does as a matter of policy, when not in line with the torah. you hate neturai karta for the physical problems they create, and i hate several things that yu does due to the spiritual things it does.
logician- maskim. i thought you meant to let them use it etc.
mp-putting a sixteen yo on the internet basically unsupervised (youre giving the kid a fb account) is like a ten yo in a candy store. the gedoim already said its worse. not me. i disagree about spiritual ups and downs. we should be mishtadel to only have ups, no downs, and deal with downs when they come. they are to be taken more seriously then a bump on the head. i just thought of a rayye- the gemara that says an amorah poked his eyes out, or tried to (dont remember) in order to avoid seeing bad things.
again- not for kiruv. the majority of people in geulah are chareidi/yeshivish. mingling of the genders is bad. done!
mp- i believe that spiritua sakanos are to be avoided more carefully than a child scraping a knee. that wil heal. if my kids wearing a helmet etc., he’ll be ok. but allowing children access to things that their yetzer hara is excited for is like putting a ten year old on a motorcycle without a helmet. the potential for long-lasting damage is greater; the possible outcome infinitely worse.
logician- even if they must happen, their din to happen is as a totza’ah of trying to do right and messing up. in essence they are an inevitable silver lining. they may be needed, the may happen no matter what, but its our job to try to avoid them and deal with them when we must. not embrace them.
feif- wanting to understand is fine, but as said above, critical questioning, not trying to farshtey, is wrong, and seems to be what you mean. youre not asking pshat, youre asking mihaichah taise, lets do it differently because i want to.
mp- so vaguely youre saying that your kid being marginally affected detrimentally by facebook is acceptable, if he learns from his mistakes. just clarifying. I would guard my childs neshama with all ive got, and therefore wouldnt allow them near facebook. the same way i wouldnt let them near cocaine.
logician-learning from mistakes is the silver lining of making them.
we do not put ourselves in situations where we expect to fall and learn. we try our best and if we still fall, we endeavor to learn from those failings, to see where we went wrong and not repeat it. allowing a kid on dangerous sites on purpose doesnt qualify.
so he shouldnt call a task force? ok, my married sister has a husband who mistreats here. should i call sholom task force?
dont go. there, problem solved.
they can protest all they want. doesnt mean it didnt happen. in fact, no-one ever protested roswell.
they dot discredit satmar. thats like saying that a tziyoni in a mental home discredits hertzel, lihavdil.
modern looking americans approaching israeli boys only occurs for one reason. and its not kiruv. Does MO approve of that. and these guys had curly payos. come on, gimme a break, its bad and wrong. why cant you just say it?
in my house the boys do everything the girls do plus all the shlepping etc.
R Shlomo miller shlita paskined that acapella is ossur during sfira.
middle path- you only let them learn from mistakes because the possible issurim clearly arent so chamur by you. no sane parent would let their child learn from there mistakes concerning drugs or being involved in something against the law, maskim? well, if your childs’ spirituality is as importnant, how can you think to allow them to mess up and learn? the same way you wont let them learn from being in rehab. and if you dont like the tzushtel then you should reconsider the holiness of a childs neshama.
i used to be from those who thought uit wasnt bad in geulah on friday afternoon. i wasnt there much but i almost never saw it. one or two maasim proved me wrong. its not always the boys who start it, i saw two modern looking girls approach shabobs numerous times and start shmoozing. its not good and should be discouraged if you dont need to. and the comparison above to shefa is a bit nuts. ok, just nuts. ive never seen anything in shefa not tznius, except for maybe the cashiers.
as if boys dont help. you know what? leave the boys in yeshiva and see who shleps the couch/fridge/extra beds/tables/ponies!
ya really, if this were the reverse ie. husband abusing wife, everyone here would tell her to call the cops. wife on husband- no biggy.
he means- if we have a mesorah and an established approach to something, then questioning is bad. if you dont undertsnad something, questioning is good. and MO seems to do the former. if youre fine with that than great.
or he’s saying that an ou alone doesnt suffice for him for pesach, which for all you know is based on a psak from a reliable rov, and isnt a chumra at all, and that when a riv says certain things made by OU are ok for pesach, he’ll rely on that rov.
zdad- you say that tools should be taught. like how to use facebook. youd agree that teaching a child to use heroin is dumb? well, maybe facebook, ruchnius-wise, is also dangerous. some tools arent supposed to be within the reach of children. youre not helping a kid by giving a bit, because kids are smarter than that; you give finger and theyll take a hand. i agree with big deal. and i think your priorities and values need reorganizing.
on the ball- al kol ponim in america, theres seder till twelve or one, and then a few hours to eat lunch, learn a bit, shave and shower, remove ingrown toenails etc. hardly a vacation.
zees- those of us who base our opinions on what we are taught by leading RYs and poskim are not called baalebatim. the guys with personal agendas are. we need not be poskim to have a torah view on a subject.
zoo
morarach- maybe their values and yours are at odds. go look at who the daughters of the current RYs and magidei shiurim are married to, happily, i may add. i was considering these bochurim the top, the cream of the crop, and if you think the shaar yoshuv boys are, than there is no conversation here. derech agav, two of my former best friends learnt in shaar yoshuv, and while certain people may need it, it is in no way doimeh to the top litvishe yeshivos. my friend in second year was in the top shiur there and said it didnt compare to our first year shiur- and this guy can learn.
sam2- i dont know the particulars, but the head of the group used to to daven in my shul. the very fact that the notion is possible speaks volumes more than its actual existence could.
lgician- im assuming your post needs clarification. care to?
klal yisroel is noheig not to sell chametz gamur.
I really do trhink it works and is needed. i can attest that one year my pesach bein hazmanim was cut very short due to a bunch of circumstances, and my summer zman suffered.
logician- thanks for the compliment. you could be right, but i tire of having to deal at length with people who wont admit that they seek to further their agendas, as opposed to trying to see things in a torah light. my mother always said i shoulda been a lawyer rather then a yungerman. but you cant curl youre thumb at a judge; i just wouldnt be able to deal.
logician- i simply mean that the fact it isnt needed or useful by all doesnt mean it shouldnt exist. the tzushel was to be mekarev it el haseichel to daas baalebatim. i do agree after elul zman its a bit much.
avi k- Married men went to learn?? are you insinuating that kollel existed before twenty years ago and isnt a product of lakewood??
such as…
yes, the bochurim who do what theyre supposed to during the zman need amonth. yes, there are those who dont need it. but the same way you baalebatim wont give up internet just because some people do aveiros with it, so too is the yeshivish world entitled to bein hazmanim.
when the most qualified halachic decisors, ie. the current gedolim and RYs (who arent quite as off the ball as youd think) decide that the mohalim are killing children, they will react accordingly. till then, we wont change.
Sam2- the top yu guys are not as good as the top bochurim from the top yeshivos. i dont consider myself the best at all and ive hanndled with the top guys in kby and although they might know 4 masechtos by heart, their iyun is lacking. vi’oid- i didnt say they wouldnt find shidduchim, they will, but it wont be the best guys, itll be the shaar yoshuv (read: off the beaten path, not worse) guys.
I agree with loyal jews opinion that the yu that was isnt what is, and that you cant bring a rayye from years gone by. i dont think R shimon shkop would agree with an alternate lifestyle club. his point about BY is ridiculous.
logician- the second. thanks for being my miturgamen lol.
as my chosson teacher opened up the shmooze with “women are nuts”, you dont need to buy a book to learn that. there, i just taught you all you need to know. please send 17.99+s&h to me.
the obtuseness of this thread is astounding. the biggest rabbis say yes, the left-leaning westernized clergy-dudes say no, and all of a sudden the frumme’ become reshaim.
firstly, this will define who she marries, whether you like it or not. no bochur from any top yeshiva is going to look at this girl.
secondly, the ruach of the place may be too much for her to handle. im not bashing (this time), im just saying that the change in societal norms from by to sterns can be overwhelming and she might get swept up in things she didnt count on. (or did count on.)
Honestly, the yeshiva world cr is advocating taaruvois in geulah on friday afternoon. if there was strong enough language to condemn the people in here who clearly arent in full control of their faculties, i would use it. but it will get modded and no-one will listen. feh and shame on you.
it should be noted that different breslov factions have their own agendas, and they edit or add into r nachmans books accordingly.
calories: little creatures that live in my closet and sew my clothes a little tighter every night while i sleep.
thats what i said.
sam2- fakhert- women cant make any deal or transaction at all. the chachamim exempted a case of small value like tzedaka in order to preserve the relationship.
yay death to nochrim!
wolf- i side with you in regards to the hiddur shaila.