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Oh, and Syag- it %100 true. They used to wake me up on Shabbos afternoon with their screaming.
Hi DY, nice to see you.
Anyone seriously debating whether chabad’s tznius standards are on the level of chassidish/Litvish BY standards is out to lunch.
warning bells ….”More likely”….as in the Rashba was “more likely” bigger in spiritual stature than the chabadsker rebbe. You can’t make this stuff up.
It seems this thread has come to a crashing and crushing close. There are no more ambiguities (except for whether CS thinks the rebbe is moshiach), and the lubavitch approach to the rest of us is pretty clear at this point. Also clear, is why they b”H won’t make any headway with the rest of us; when your doctrine hinges on beliefs and klehring whether the avos and Moshe Rabbeinu were beinonim or tzadikim of the Tanya, and comparing them to the rebbe who was ostensibly the only tzaddik of the tanya to have lived since, well, the tanya, you’re not gonna get very far. And thank G-d for that.
@RSo, yes it was a compliment. I don’t have koichois to articulate every single piece of hashkafic objection that this thread demands, so I sorta jump in once in a while with a prod. Someone on the last page (which I’m obviously to lazy to go back and reference) put it down flawlessly. And I’ll add another, the underlying reason of why CS came here in the first place, all her explanations notwithstanding. It’s the exact same reason chabad saw fit to try and open a chabad house in kiryat sefer, literally the most chareidi derfl on the planet. It was not to be mekarev people, because no one there is frei. It was not to make a minyan, or provide shabbos seudos to weary travellers. It’s because they want to convert you to being chabad, plain and simple. It’s the same reason chabad ‘bochurim’ approach little (chareidi, like very chareidi) kids in the park on shabbos afternoon with the promise of candy, but only after reciting certain peukim. Can you guess which ones? No, miss CS, no one is falling for your chabad game, and all your freudian slips just helped you nail yourself.
BAM! and @RSo lays it down
Still not sure why y’all are having this conversation. I think it’s been established beyond a shadow of a doubt that indoctrination from youth, coupled with a subculture that allows that bubble to expand, means that CS cannot grasp what you are talking about, nor the degree to which she’s brainwashed. You know you’re not going to get her to say the rebbe’s not moshiach (because obviously, he is), nor will she admit that anyone was on a higher garga than her rebbe (which obviously, they were) so why keep pushing it. We all know that chabad is somewhere between its own subculture/cult and religion, so why would she sell out to another faith/branch? I also think it’s funny you guys are focusing on the smaller problems within chabad, and ignoring the whoppers like hiskashrus/davening to the (dead?) rebbe (maybe that’s a self-answering question), atzmuso in a guf, etc. Why keep giving her a platform to spout nonsense?
Guys, how are you not bored yet? Do you not see you will not get anywhere with her?
I don’t get it, CS: a)Yes b) No. One word. Nu??
@CS- “…Although meshichism falls under the topic of Geula, its controversial even within lubavitch (as you saw on that thread) and is really at the end of the day emuna based rather than a solid hashkafa ( altho there are sources either way.) so id rather keep that out of this discussion as I prefer on coming to common ground…”
Ya did it again. Is he or is he not? One word answer. A) Yes B) No
IITFT- You miss my point. First of all, yes, R’ Shach was regarded as Daas Torah universally, in the litvishe oilam hatorah. That’s why his de’ah on Lubavitch is the de’ah of 99% of the litvishe yeshivos. Ask someone who was around then, when R Shach came out against the Rebbe, what the popular opinion of Chabad was. It was one of passive distrust at the most. He started the campaign against it. So if you share that hashkafa (assuming your part of the aforementioned tzibbur), that’s where your views originated.
To address your actual post- I never said we look at roshei yeshiva as emperor demagogues (the famous maaseh of R’ Shach’s kasha on a R’ Chaim that prompted the famous line “mir zennen talmidim, nisht chassidim” proves that clearly). I mean that his de’ah was viewed by all as definitive daas torah, not that we were his soldiers.
Lol, this is classic chabad skirting the issue. She will not, under any circumstances, state the the rebbe is not moshiach. Because she believes he is. but she knows that we’ll think she’s nuts for confirming that belief, so she won’t admit it. As far as R’ Shach goes, he was viewed universally in the livish oilam hayeshivos as the manhig hador. Literally the chad bedoro. No one, again, in the litvishe oilam hatorah, would dispute this. He was seen as the hemshach of our mesorah from the Gaon and his talmidim. This is common knowledge. So CS sidelining him and saying, “wellllll, if you were his talmid, then maybe, you know” is also a joke. Every.Single.Litvishe.Yeshivamahn. Sees himself as a talmid/follower/mekabel from R Shach. And yes, the issues he raised, plus the issues that have been discussed here at length, are the reasons why 99% of the litvishe velt (not baalebatim) do not hold of lubavitch and the rebbe.
@CS- Stop pretending to have any grasp on anything to do with the standard litvishe mehalach. Like I said, you’re so far down the Chabad rabbit hole, you cannot understand it.
and you said-
“…it should be the same for the Rebbe., who was not just a learned person in Torah, but a leader to all Yiddin , chief Rabbis, chassidish Rebbes, sefardim, askenazim, litvish and not yet frum alike…”
No it shouldn’t and no he wasn’t. To compare the Rebbe in gadlus to the chofetz chaim is a joke. like literally a joke.
Joe- Honestly, when you categorically state that people don’t know what they’re talking about, you’re trying to win an argument with a sledgehammer. Why in the world would anyone take you seriously when you base your opinions on some sort of secret access to how other Gedolim relate to each other. Funny that you think R” Shteinman wasthe GH, I definitely had you pinned for an eitznik…
Joseph- R Dovid is the foremost posek in NA, regarded as such by everyone afaik. I suppose R’ Shmuel and R Shloime Miller would come in 2nd/3rd in whatever order you decide. I don’t pretend to be privy to the deliberations of any moetzeses, and you can believe what you want, but R Dovid is held in higher regard than R Ahron. You just like him because he’s also a pretty intense kanoi. Say it aint so, joe.
Really Haimy? A kid in my kid’s Gan got measles. My kid still needed the second dose (which we’ve since gotten). I have a baby under a year who can’t get vaccinated. Measles sis extraordinarily contagious. Is this paranoia, or justified animosity directed at people who R”L put others’ children in sakana without giving a (if I could write bad words, I would, solely in this case) about the lives of others. Assuming you’re living in Lakewood, shkoiach, there are only a couple of cases. But not everyone does, and we’re justified in being furious. Rotzchim.
While I hear where you’re going with this, most things that people on the outside looking in enjoy bashing do have some inherent virtue. The issue becomes one when a)those on the outside feel the need to pontificate that those on the inside have nothing over them and b) those on the inside exaggerate the ramifications of whatever virtue they do possess. I think learning/being in brisk (RAY) would be a good example.
@RSo- Thanks. Taking things out of context is an effective way of spinning what people really said. Watch the media do it all time.
yabia omer- what are you ‘hocking’ that’s utterly cookoo.
I assume the true answer in America is R’ Shmuel or R’ Dovid. I believe are held by their esteemed colleagues to be above the rest. If we’re handling kano’im, which we’re not, they obviously would not fit the bill.
coffee addict- Your tomato analogy is off- you misused the word. As the woke chevra would say, “own” it and move on 😆
@kaiserW- just so we’re clear, I’m supposed to accept a paragraph from a sefer you cannot verify as existing, nor have I ever heard of it (though that’s not a raaya, I’m an am haaretz :)), as sufficient proof against a chovos halvavos?
The people covered regularly in Lehovin…
We don’t demand from Hashem. All the sources you cited from tehillim/kinos are lamenting something, not demanding from Hashem. Interestingly, the way you framed how you think is crazy to daven is exactly how to daven. The Chovos Halvavos brings a tefillah that someone big (obviously, if the CH”H is quoting him) added to the end of shemona esrei, stating exactly that: “Hashem we want whatever your ratzon is, and if I’ve davened for something that doesn’t jive with that, please disregard my tefillah. If it is your ratzon, please accept my tefillah.”
Our avoda is to bring out kavod shomayim, not to demand things from God. Anyway, I know this isn’t going anywhere productive. You’re head is so far down the chabad rabbit hole that you can’t believe there’s another way to think.It’s obviously an eitz propaganda paper, c’mon Joe. They only write about eitz rabbonim. Your point about about R Aharon is entirely untrue, and ironic at best. vihameivin yavin.
She knows law, y’all don’t.
First thing the fascist governments do is…yep, you guessed it, take away the people’s guns. 1 is correct. The democratic party today has clearly shifted so far left that Schumer and Pelosi are running leftward trying to keep up. Sanders is probably closer to the base of the party these days than they are. And they are crazy enough. Todays dems are the party of the mob, of Waters and Cortez, a party where due process is only for black LGBTQs, and victim/intersectional politics. There’s a reason Warren was pretending to be an indian- as a white woman, she’s so far down on the victim totem pole, she’s irrelevant.
Make sure you’re only smoking the best weed…
Get. A. Grip.
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Pardon the pun, I only realized it after I typed reply. I find that happens quite often, though.What does your evidently burning jealousy of rich people have to do with the title?
Nope. Obviously, a bad person will (generally) be both a bad husband and father, and perhaps the odds of being a good father are better if you’re a good husband, but I’ve seen it go both ways.
@unommin- Caveat emptor? Maybe you meant to post that on the fake techeiles thread?
@CS- Love how you never learnt one of the basic mussar texts and feel qualified to guess context correctly. Stick to your maamers and don’t share them with us misnagdim.
Lol Joe, could you be more subtle?
Milhouse- what are you smoking?
Really? Darn, would’ve gotten one.
It’s ‘apikores’.
They can come eat by me on Shabbos in Yerushalayim if it’ll save them some money for the first little bit.
DY- C’mon, a tradition collection RW is see as pretty cheap, let’s be honest (even though I happened to have chosen one). Standard is a cheaper B&M or longines.
“…mit an eppel oif’n het. Didan netzach…”
@GH- “…no brainer.” The irony of this comment cannot be overstated.
Lol corona, that’s hysterical. My current favorites are goldstar unfiltered, carlsberg, and weihenstaphner. If I was still in Canada, it’d probably be molson dry, moosedhead, or sleemans.
Neville, you’re totally misreading the issue. Like, mamsh. Trust me, I’m closer to Joseph on the hashkafic spectrum, received (and hold of) the standard yeshivish hashkafas, learnt in the reg. yeshivish yeshivas, and can honestly tell you, you;re missing the boat by miles. You’re conflating ashkenazi american trends, with those crowds shifting to the left/mo, with sfardim the world over who don;t associate a tshirt on shabbos with being modern, the same way you wouldn’t wear sandals on shabbos, but the mizrachi/dati crowd does and that doesn’t make them MO, it’s just what they are. You’re off, buddy, waaaay off.
@Yabia Omer- Except I do…And that’s a pretty dumb, broad (pardon the pun) statement full of dislike for ashkenazim and not much else.
Neville- We’re usually on the same side of issues, so I’m not sure where this struck a nerve. Certainly in Israel, and to a lesser degree in the US, a sfardi jew putting on a headcovering when entering shul, or even when just making a brachah, has nothing at all to do with MO (are you seriously going to entertain a tzad that a cab driver in Jlem has a clue who Lamm was??) nor are they dati leumi. They are frum people and this is their custom. While there may be other elements of their yiddishkeit that is also not as stringent as the norm, they are not dati light or MO, this is just them, the same way a lot of them come to davening shabbos morning in jeans and a tshirt, and it’s just how they do things.
Ya kids don;t go off the D because of the internet, they usually get sucked in to the culture once they’re well on their way. Adults, though, I think they go off because of the internet. I have a good friend who I consider an apikores who went that way because he started reading too much philosophy on the net. Brilliant guy. What a waste.
Many, many sfardim in Israel still only wear a yarmulke when davening or making brachos.
Issur sirus, as others have pointed out, is an issur mi’di’oraysa. Tzar baalei chayim seems to be muttar if it’s for a purpose, even when not necessarily for a product. See the Gemara and Tosfos somewhere around daf 14, 15 in AZ.
@apush- It’s more about the way they’re attempting to make it mainstream by pushing it over and over, not so much the fact that they’re cuckoo for believing a dead Rebbe is Moshiach.
Midwest is correct.
BME
Either way, it’ll be a yotzei min hatomaeh tomeh.
Does Shulem Lemmer know anything about politics? See above for the answer.
I kinda just wanna come up with a really good cheese danish recipe, but that’s just me.
To answer the OP (as I write this, I sorta wonder if I posted it somewhere up the thread, it’s just exactly what I would say…)
Shailas chachama chatzi teshuvasa.
RY- Wouldn’t it more appropriate, and funnier, to refer to them as plebeians?
Gam Rabbanim ktzat zkukim lichofesh na’im, im hasandalim.
If anyone knows where this is from, I request they get in touch with me asap. We have much to discuss.