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rational- because he wouldve diected his entire force to palestine and forfeited the actual war. go learn history. and stop playing god.
just think of possible negative repercussions before doing anthing rash.
ROB- by chiloni provocateurs?
interjection- again, its because of how you were taught to view the back of the bus. just like an israeli school kd wouldnt understand what being sent to the corner means, those who are blissfully ignorant of americas segregated history just consider the back of the bus the part not closer to the front.
rational-“had Israel existed 80 years ago, 6 million Jews would not have been murdered.”
can i borrow your crystal ball? shtusim.
ROB- i never said that. please dont be the one to decide what my views are.
Nechomah- you said-
“I think the issue of the back of bus being inherently demeaning is putting the cart before the horse. Was the back of the bus demeaning before the blacks were allowed to sit only in that part of the bus? I don’t think so.”
you are good at this.
ROB- So bikitzur you have no real argument other than your guarantees. well, the i present a perfectly better argument, i guarantee you it doesnt bother them, and my wife thinks so too, so i also conducted a survey.
ROB said,
“allow every one to interpret what they mean with it”
so it thereby loses all meaning? why are you being intentionally vague?
“they feel that there is a need for jewish sovereignity today ,as otherwise we’d be annihilated.”
we’d be annihilated? are you nuts?
are you the wife of Joe? like, jack and jill? jan and joe?
never. not in a million years.
so why dont you guys disassociate? do you think anyone would found a new party called the national socialists and allow the world to assume?
gaava- it takes care of most of the rest.
i switch toothbrushes with my brother just to bug him.
GAW- im not arguing with that. im arguing with those who claim to be the protectors and advocates for all women, when they argue a point that the women they claim to represent couldnt care less. like ROB.
CH- come again?
so ditch the title. stop associating them with any movement political, and just say they loved EY and wanted to live here. de-politicize. because i doubt anyone else on this site is understanding zionism that way. it generally refers to a herzl-esque emancipation from all things jewish.
ROB- again, you have proven my point, that the negativity associated with back of the bus shtams froms an american, rosa parks education. Nechomah said it best.
rob- i think we’re done this discussion. keep on twisting whatever you want.
“R” Zvi Hirsch Kalisher,the Netziv and many others did not plan or know political Zionism and it would be pure conjecture to speculate what they would have done.”
“So, he was a full proponent of real Zionism”
jfem- not if there are three sets of doors. wrong.
hakatan- i happen to hold like you. but you argue like a blithering idiot.
rebd- its a little dumb to argue a man’s shittos based on organizations and scenarios that usurp his name many years later. shall we conclude that JB would be maskim to all the current evils of modern orthodoxy?
interjection- in NY. that is my point.
rebd- its rav hirsch to you.
pretty darn rar.
ROB- youre contradicting yourself from one thread to another. If R hirsch couldnt have been criticizing zionism, the R kalisher can not be considered a proponent, remember?
a succahle’ a klieine.
interjection- sorry, where were you born and educated?
ROB- i specifically wrote they are anti zionist for the sake of clarity. ironically, zionists also distort and misquote gedolim of yesteryear to shtim with their shittos. just like ive seen them on this site bring down R kalisher as a proponent of zionism because he liked aliyah. so we have to decide which approach is valid. either we apply both of them to the political movements and extrapolate what they would hold, or we leave both names out. the fact that loyalty to germany blew up in our faces doesnt mean he would have changed his attitude and hashkafa as to what we’re expected to do in galus, it just means that in this instance it ended badly. i would disagre and say he is a reliable source, and the irony is that for some reason alot of MO try to attach R hirsch to political zioninsm.
k i cheated. did a quick google search. found an anti-zionist website.thewre are several quotes from different works of R Hirsch. you can check them out.
torah true jews dot org slash rav hirsch
ben- because choosing to associate with a movement or organization inherently lends credenc to it, and associates you with it. if im a national socialist or communist, i have associated myslef with hitler yms or stalin yms. even if i dont like them, and even if i hat them, and disapprove of so many things they did, im still creating that association. so if the mizrachis and zionists would come out and say,” herzl was a rasha, we hate his guts, but we love EY”, as most of the normal frum world has done, thats great. but if you say, lets name countless streets, parks, and gardens after this kofer, who hated HKBH vitoraso, you cant really claim to be disassociated from the underlying themes of that movement. like kfira. just call it something else, and stop making the state into something holy.
ROB- when i have time, ill try.
ROB- biased journalism isnt journalism.
again, the bus thing is only because we were raised that way. the women dont feel that way. ay, you think they do? they still dont. they are not sent to the back, they sit in the back. and they dont view it a demeaning. civilty is vaiter something being dictated by those who decided it isnt civil.
kofer theodore. mumar theodore. rabbi, even used sarcastically, is too good.
ROB- Ligabei the bus thing being demeaning, i think its all about perception. if you come from a rosa parks-esque view of the back of the bus, the in hochi nami youll be offended. but its all about perception. these people have never heard of rosa parks, and quite possibly have never heard of segregation in america. they dont have the same associations as you. im not saying there is halachic validity to bidavka sitting the nushim in the back, but all those negative feelings you feel for the back of the bus were engendered by an american education. they dont have these notions at all.
honestly, the fountain is mamesh an isolated incident. two families out of hundreds of thousands of people. come on. thats like saying all chareidim are niturei karta.
zionism existed before aliyah began. herzl was born in the mid 1800s and lived into the early 1900s.
rob- ok, great, im just telling you what he held.
i dont hate you, its just inaccurate. limaaseh, zionism was created to take the ‘yid’ out of yiddishkeit, and make judasim another -ism, a culture. so its bad. thats all.
no apostrophe.
ROB- you said”If you want to have women at the back of the bus,organize your own bus lines. Till then, buses are for everyone and no one should be forced to move to the back.”
thats an interesting point. an ironic one too. the the chareidim have repeatedly attempted to organize private companies so that these things wouldnt be an issue. what happened, you ask? what happenede was that because egged has a fat monopoly on anything to do with buses, they were able to ensure that the chareidi buses failed any inspections and couldnt recieve any certifications needed to operate. thereby forcing everyone to use egged. thereby ensuring a continuation of conflict.
you also said”As far as the fountain goes, would you like if chilonom come and make merry in your beth medrash?”
the comparison is ridiculous. of course i believe in respecting others’ feelings and not antagonizing another, but this fountain has no inherent kedusha, has no halachic status. the water and stones are nothing. whereas a beis medrash has many halachos that apply to it.
i do agree with the points about attacking frum soldiers and spitting on little girls, but it is important to recognize that the perpetrators of these acts are not chareidim, they are wackos. say i call them ‘super-chareidm’ will you leave us alone?
i would like to point out that R shamshon R hirsch’s issue with zionism was also because of the 3 oaths.
Rob you said-“Toi- if you are referring to my pointing out the extremism of some chareidim, so be it. Far from me to paint every cvhareidi with the same brush. On the contrary, I sympathize with many chareidim ,being one ,by the way! However, one has to logical and recognize that trhe other side has valid arguments too.”
but before you said
“In one day, we have three different accounts that put chareidim in a very bad light (bus, fountain, frum soldier accosted). If the chareidi leadership will not rein in these extemists, we will see more hatred towards chareidim and more measures by the general public, who feel that the chareidim are putting themselves “michutz lamachaneh”.
So i think you are schizophrenic.
Sam2- cuz noshim are daatan kalos. just attempting a hijack.
some guys are ready at 20, and some shouldnt be allowed to date till 30, but both will start at 22-23. earlier isnt better.
ask a rov.
what does the validity of akuperma’s opinion have to do with your right to continually attempt to villify an entire community base on the misdeeds of a few?
o come off it
ROB- your tactics and attitude are deplorable.
pshh
seriously, i went to a very central-minded school and we werent allowed to roller-blade to school. doing something kids dont like doesnt mean its a chumrah.