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I was not able to open the link to the Victor Davis Hanson article.
outside links are broken before posting -mod
Since it was brought up before about “constitutionality” of allowing illegal “immigrants” to vote in municipal elections, I searched and found this…
https://ballotpedia. org/Laws_permitting_noncitizens_to_vote_in_the_United_StatesBasically, in municipal elections, State Constitutions, for the most part, have not prohibited, but some states are permitting it, and some have prohibited it.
My personal opinion on this is about “who benefits” is, that while, in time, a lot of the people who seek residence in the US may turn out to be good citizens, and, probably, like them, will tend to vote for the party that was more permissive regarding their entry, that is not the real agenda here.
The agenda is a changing of the world order and a tendency on the part of the permissive parties to try to enforce, without any legal right, their agenda of open borders on the greater public.
It’s like they have their primary belief in John’s Lennon’s song “Imagine.”
Really, in the long run, these people think they are benefitting, because they think that is the way it should be, but my belief, and a lot of others think that some type of organized type of immigration, by rules established, is the safest and most economically viable.If one does it it is called “prejudice.”
Of course one should not judge a group of people based on negative experiences with someone in that group.
However, one may use caution in dealing with them.
Remember the story from the Gemara that the rabbi let a unknown person stay overnight at his house but he took away the ladder. (so he could not get down and possibly rob them.)And did not also the Agudah faction confer with their gedolim?
All the frum parties should get their act together and support one another.
Also, those who flirt with the Left should be told that the voters will just not come out on election day if they think that their dati party will put in their support with the back-stabbing Left, or other parties that have shown a contempt for tradition, and Eretz Yisrael.They are very bad “shoes” too wear.
They give the idea of support without actually providing any support at all.
Cannot see why they are not “tznius,” but in this case one must certainly consider health, and not really worry about their “tznius.”
I broke my foot while stepping down from a 1 ft. height onto slightly uneven ground, while wearing them.
Possibly, to use as kafkafim , inside the home, they are not bad but please, for health sake, do not trust them outdoors.yytz,
Thank you for letting me know a new term…I never heard the term “sockpuppeting” but I have heard of people using multiple user names to post, but did not suspect so here.
He’s right.
They need to know, because if they found out later and it was withheld it could cause mistrust.
I guess you are strictly right that only relevant information one would be “required” to divulge.
But he’s a hasid not a tzaddik.
@Avi K,
Non-state actors are not really P.O.W. but like your discussion with Heath, you take the discussion away from the main premise.
The shtachim boys are not terrorists of the caliber of the intentional mass murderers housed it GITMO, even if guilty of the Duma ARSON case.
You did not address the obvious case which is more applicable here, that in civilized countries with due process of law, courts do not allow interrogation of minors without a lawyer or parent present. These boys didn’t even get to see a lawyer for over a month but still you have faith in the Israeli court system that alllows this.
Then you bring up a frivilous case with Heath about “civil rights” of women being violated because they can’t walk on one side of the street in Beit Shemesh and have the nerve to compare it to the suffering of those boys and their parents while being held in Shabak’s torture chambers. Shame on you.
Sof! Sof! learn to address the argument at hand instead of reaching for points that fit your argument.
Perhaps people will not see Zionism and Medinat Israel as something so bad if they don’t see it as the ultimate “start of the redemption,” but rather as a means that H’ has of getting all the Jews to EY.
Those, who really are anatagonistic to the idea of a Jewish State, could see it as something like the Expulsion from Spain, a step towards our eventual redemption.
Those, who think of the State as something positive, could stiil wait and pray for a gradual process by which the State becomes more religious.
Either way, who’s to say that Jews living together and trying to (usually) protect one another, and having a home where Torah and mitzvahs can be performed in their proper place, and maybe even hastening the redemption, is something SO BAD?
Guantanamo is not the same thing, those are prisoners of war, that may be what Israel should do with PA “prisoners-of -war” terror suspects, no trial by judges, only a military tribunal.
No, these are Israeli citizens and many are minors at that.
I do not, for one minute, believe the AG or ISA that it was “only” sleep deprivation, nevertheless, I feel compelled to say that the torture was “alleged”, because there needs to be proof.
Yet, you post that they were subjected to these unusual interrogation techniques because of the nature of the crime, yet they had no evidence of the crime, and really had to rely on a forced confession to get “evidence.”
I’m sorry, but what it boils down to is whether one wants to take the word of the AG’s office and ISA(a secret police organization, whose actions are only under the scrutiny of an office from the good-ole-boys system), or an independent( from the government) legal rights organization,Honenu, which specialises in Israeli citizens living in the shtachim.
You, along with Ministers Bennett and Shaked, the PM, and Likud, unquestionably trust the establishment organizations, Me and Rabbi Aryeh Stern, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, want those organizations claims of non-torture to be examined.
Rabbi Stern was the only official, that I saw reports, that demanded an independent investigation.
That was much to his credit, I believe.
I think all Jews should call out for the ISA to be investigated.
I know that the next time I hear that an Arab terror suspect “confessed” after ISA interrogates him/her, I’ll have my doubts how the “confession” was obtained.
Besides, as I mentioned above, these things, when they involve the PA terrorists, should be handled by the military.
To put interrogation of teens by police or others in perspective, let me tell you about a story my husband related to me.
Right now there is a lawsuit against the Worchester,MA Police Dept. for an interrogation and false confession they extracted from a 16 year old teen, who was convicted, falsely after a “confession” that she “murdered” her baby.
The young girl was interrogated (I assume without some of the horrors allegedly attributed to the Shabak) by police, without an attorney or her mother present (ILLEGAL), and, under those conditions, she “confessed.” The medical examiner’s report which the police did not even refer to, showed that the baby was sick and likely died of causes relating to that. However, these police, like the Shabak, were gunning for a conviction and they got one. The young girl spent 3 years in juvenille detention before having the conviction overturned and, now, the police dept. is being sued. In true Israeli chutzpah fashion, the police dept. is suing the lawyer for not suing them sooner. Worchester is one of the largest cities in MA, not some hick town.
So, I guess, even in the US, there are illegal interrogation methods but, at least, eventually, they are recognized, and the citizens recieve their just due process. Wiil these “hilltop youth” ever receive their just due process. Sorry to say, no, not if normally good people bury their heads in the sand.
Still we can all pray for their recovery and for justice to be done.
We all belive that, in the end, Justice, will be done.
@Heath, Thank you for your Mazel Tov, Mazel Tov!
As far as calling them a frum party, I’ll admit it is disappointing, but let’s let H’ judge us all with rachamim. Often we all justify things and this case they may consider it for the “greater good,” even if I think it’s really an excuse for not doing the right thing.
@Avi,I’m not here disputing if they are guilty, or not, of the crime. I am against an form of torture for allegeded criminals (including non-Jewish ones). Possibly in the case of a literal, physical ticking bomb, I could see making an exception. It is not democratic and it’s not the Jewish way.
As far as “documents,” there were statements by the head of the movement to cause the fall of the government thru arson and other attacks, I don’t think there were any incriminating evidence about specific attacks, i.e.. time, place, etc.
Note, also, that I called the torture “alleged,” but the whole idea of a secret police that has to answer to just a non-elected “Justice” official, the AG, seems to flaunt any concept of a “democratic,” free country. As an American I’d find that scary, as a Middle-Easterner I’d find that par-for-the course.
Remember that thread, ” if you could be any tree, what would you be?”
Well, judging from the number of responses here that seem to be Satmar advocates, I’d say there would be a lot of date trees , in response to that question.
Funny thing though, Teitelbaum is a Date Tree, that sounds like a pretty Eretz Yisrael type of tree to me.
So, to me, it just shows that deep in the core of that tree, there is a very strong connection to the Eretz HaKadosh.
To achieve a true connection to that Aretz, one has to live there, and the connection to the Aretz, and the People(Am), and the Torah are the essentials of being a Jew. That is, in essence, what being a Zionists is, even if some of those who live in this Land are so estranged from their “core” that they can’t realize the essential three part connection, and ignore the Torah.
Haval, that those great ones, who are connected to the Torah part, sometimes also cannot realize the connection to the Aretz part, also essential.
Let’s pray that our connection to the Am will lead all factions to a true “Zionism” which will realize all the three essentials for being a true Jew, in every aspect.
I wrote many MKs and davened that the tortured young men would be soon be granted a repreive from this terror against them. I also,as a mother, could hardly imagine the state of mind of their poor parents. I must say that it did lessen the joy of my own simcha, which was taking place at the same time the torture was, although I kept it from my daughter, the kallah. I could only think that these young men will never be the same, even if they are eventully released.
The wife of the young man, who eventually “confessed” and was then charged with the arson, that resulted in death of 3 people, one being a baby, said that her husband was
things that are too bad to post here
,” in addition to other tortures.
I told several MKs that, if we just sit by and let this happen, we are no different than the citizens of Sodom, who let the court(the AG???), apply torturous punishment for going against that city-state’s laws. Really, that is their “crime”, for speaking out too clearly about their desire for Melech Moshiach and the demise of a government that, thruout it’s history, has tried to destroy the Jewish way of life.
True, there are countless good works by both people within the government institutions and without, that help to strengthen the Jewish presence in the Land, and the IDF soldiers and some security personnel(maybe even some in the ISA(Shabak)) that serve H’ by protecting the Jewish people, but the ruling class of the government (and I’m not talking about Bibi here) are relentless in their attempts to forego the will of the people and make Israel into a country like any other country.
I think that is what all this is about, to keep those who are a thorn in the side of the ruling class under control.
We see one spineless religious party and “nationalistic” parties run to support the ISA claims and what is this but submitting to their power mongering. One can’t be too careful or suddenly one will find some “crime” that the AG is just too eager to pursue prosecuting. That is beside the whole broad brush smearing of any right-wing, especially Shomron or Yehuda dwelling, religious group. One can easily imagine, with this state of affairs dominating, why there are so many people “supporting” the claims of ISA and the Attorney Generals office.
I thank the poster, dbrim, who posted the names of the allegedly tortured youths.
As, I said, I’ve been busy with our family simcha but now, I’ll have more time to daven that they should have a refueah shelimah b’nefesh v’b’guf.
This is a very painful thread for me to address.
Formerly, I tried to point out that Zionism is a love of Eretz Yisrael and it’s inseparable complement, it’s People, who are bound to the Torah.
I mentioned the Vilna Gaon, who sent his students to live there and would have done so himself.
That is not an insignificant thing but prophecy.
Each Jew who moves to Israel is bringing the Geulah closer.
If some of these Jews’ actions seem to be delaying the redemption, we cannot understand, but it is HaShem’s will that we be gathered and, if we merit it, the redemption will come, and if we do not merit it, it will still come.
Rather than point out all the bad that secular Zionist Jews have done, which does not include the awful distortion presented here of inciting the Arabs, one should look on the GOOD that has been achieved. A Jew SHOULD be able to live in the Eretz HaKadosh, certainly HaRav Sonnenfeld, the Guardian of Jerusalem, felt so, and encouraged a group that included the nascent Religious Zionists, including HaRav Avraham Yitzhak Kook, to travel thruout the settlements, even in a time of terror attacks. The time has, at long last, come for a return and that return involves taking responsibilty for one another and having our own government and security forces that will be responsible for our safety. It would seem to be self evident after what happened in the mid-20th Century, but just as before that time there were people who opposed, there are still those that oppose.
I can understand the caution some must feel, “Is this ordained by H’? Will I have the means to support my family? Will the influences of a seculkar culture make inroads in my family?” However, we must try to remember, “Baruch hagever yivtach b’H, haya H’ mivtacho.”
Denigrating what others have done to build up the Land and for other Jews, is really not nice, to say the least, and may be more sinful.
I am sure that the great rabbis would not advocate this and people’s miscomprehension of their words only leads to divisions that are unnecesssary.
True, one must keep their vigilance in such enviroments, just as one must protect against those who wield physical knives against us.
Please, don’t say anything if you cannot find something nice to say.
I did attempt to lighten the air here but even that was criticized.
My husband always says that Leftists have no sense of humor, so don’t go acting like a humorless Leftist.
H’ gave us the ability to laugh and to BE HAPPY, let’s try that and to love one another.
If this fails, I would advise that those who support Eretz Yisrael and it’s People, to avoid posting on such threads, as these, in the future. Let those who wish to denigrate Israel have their own private club. It does not deserve the imput of those Jews that cherish our Land and Am Yisrael.
PS Add sugar to the broth, if that’s your inclination.
Recipe for the fish:
1.5 Kilo Carp
2 eggs
Matza Meal, 1-2 Tbs.(can leave out at Pesach, if that’s your minhag)
Little salt
1 lg. onion.
1 large carrot
Chop the onion and carrot fine in Food Processor, pulsing
Cut the fish in chunks and chop in several batches until in fine pcs.
Mix all ingredients with hands.
Form Medium balls, w/ moistened hands
Drop into boiling stock.
Stock
If you have fish bones add them to about 3 Liters water.
Small amt of Salt and black pepper.
Strain removing fish bones.
Add to strained stock:
2 carrots cut in several pieces
2 onions, sliced
Bring to boil.
Remove to container and save carrots but discard onion, save some of the broth to store fish.
Chill completely and serve.
After seeing some of the other thread topics, this lite one is most welcome.
Homemade Gefilte Fish is very good, made with fresh fish ground at home(to avoid the inevitable cartilage type bones ground in the pre-ground) and cooked in a filtered broth made from the bones, carrots, onions, pepper, and salt.
There are those, however, who really don’t like fish and even this less “fishy” type of GF will not please them, except maybe drowned in lots of charaine.
Haven’t made it in quite a while, lots of work, as you can imagine.
Ooops! Typo Vilna Gaon.
Maybe the Vina Gaon also was one, the founder of Carmel Wineries. 😉
Tsk! Tsk! The Vina Gaon and his students such nasty Zionists.
I don’t know why there has to be so many over-the-top comments, like comparing either Republican contenders or Sanders to that new Labour Party Head.
As far as political stances, really Cameron is similar to Obama, because both are somewhat socialist , favor open borders and a moral equivalent view. Perhaps from European guilt for the Holocaust and colonialism, Cameron is considerably less anti-Israel than Obama.
However, the main point is that no one running for office in the USofA should be like any European country, because it is the United STATES of America, not just America. We have states that are united under a federal government, not just one big all powerful government, and that is a unique thing about the US and that makes something that Europeans can never come close to.
If we were drifting to a loss of state rights before, that has been greatly accelerated under Obama.
Some Republican candidates are trying(more than others) to reassert that form of government again.
As far as that Labour candidate, I read an op-ed by a Brit and he felt that by choosing such a radical leader, much more than the guy who was just defeated, the Labour Party has doomed itself to even further loss of support. Brits don’t want such a radical guy.
kfb said, “Israel wasn’t even mentioned in the 2012 DNC convention.”
I think Jerusalem being recognized as the capital of Israel( Congress has passed this long ago but no POTUS has implemented it because of “diplomatic issues.”) was mentioned to which it was overwhelmingly booed. They pretended that the voice count had passed it, so they could put it on their platform. But really Israel was booed at the last Democratic convention, and they did not vet their candidate for president in the previous election, where they would have been forced to admit that he was a long time congregant at a radically anti-American and anti-Jewish pastor’s church, Rev. Wright.
As far as the Iran deal, I believe thie op-ed by Eric Kraus, “The Iran Nuclear Agreement: Good or Bad?” on Arutz 7 today puts it in the proper perspective, one of “strategic objective,” which for any nation (or individual, or sport team,etc.) is the deciding factor(self interest.) and one nation’s strategic objective may be different than another’s.
Trouble is for the people who really feel strongly positive about 2 countries that may have conflicting strategic objectives, basically most of the people on this site, who love Israel, this may be hard to manage.
The times when Israel’s priorities were the priorities of the US may, sadly, be coming to a close and all these US Jews, who do love Israel, may have to face a decision whom they support. This appears to be especially the case, now that Israel is becoming a partisian issue, sorry AIPAC, :’-(
mw13,
My “rant” was in response to this exchange,
tirtza:
Let the Arabs decide what to do with all their refugees.
mw13:
Somehow, I don’t think we’d like whatever decision they would make.
They are responsible for the refugees if UNWRA folds, as it should.
You “REALLY” didn’t get what I was talking about?
Your post appears to be addressing assurnet, not me
The “Palestinian” narrative was started by the USSR and continues to today, Jews who DO LOVE ISRAEL, The LAND of the JEWS, should do whatever small thing that they can to spread a different narrative. But maybe you think it’s more productive to write about cream cheese???
mw13,
You are aware of the funding problems with the UNWRA, are you not?
Your reply to me about the Arab League did not seem to indicate such.
In short, they’re running out of money and there are calls to defund them in the US, who provides a third of their funding.
They are complicit in incitement in their summer camps and textbooks and schools.
They had explosive devices in their buildings last year during the Gaza op that killed IDF soldiers.
Concerned Jews should write their Congressmen to defund UNWRA and get US taxpayers money out of funding terrorist supporting organizations, that contribute, rather than solve, the “Palestinian” problem.
There are lots of refugees, these deserve to be settled in other, rich Arab nations to provide comfort to their own people. It certainly should not be American taxpayers paying for Arab propaganda.
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
RebYid23,perhaps you know of a chemical solution that could whisk away all the “Palestinians” to Saudi Arabia and Quatar?
Maybe you know of a chemical solution that could be dropped from IDF bombers that would dissolve all the explosives in the UNWRA buildings to prevent casualties to Israeli citizens and the IDF?
IF NOT, YOU”RE PART OF THE PROBLEM!
I like chameleons.(I guess they would be in the “beautiful” class.)
We used to see them in our old apartment at times, here in Israel.
They are definitely interesting, and maybe “cute.,” but not so cute when you scare them and they run and leave a portion of their tail behind, “poor things.”
I see that yytz gave a similar answer as mine (hadn’t read all the posts) and referenced Caroline Glick(I should have done so, as well.)
And to all the folks who criticize Medinat Israel.
“If you aren’t part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.”
There are so many refugees, real ones, not ones from 2 generations back, thruout the M.E. now.
What makes these “refugees” so special?
There should be a solution to all the refugees in the M.E. because of all the conflicts, present and past , and the onus of solving it should be laid on the doorstep of the Arab League, wealthy Arab nations, who caused the former mess and contributed to the present mess.
Let the Arabs decide what to do with all their refugees.
It will be fair and just, seeing that they kept these people in limbo so long.
Israel should apply the findings of the Levi Commission and, in a true humanitarian gesture, permit those Arabs, dwelling in Yehuda and Shomron, who can prove that they will be loyal citizens, to apply for citizenship, like those living in the Golan and Eastern Jerusalem, which are annexed areas, over the pre-67 Armistice lines.
As far as granting voting rights and citizenship, there are examples of states that, like Switzerland, and probably others, have people living there for lifetimes and never have an opportunity to become citizens. Surely, people who had a requirement to live 2 years in a country to claim residency (the “Palestinian” “refugees”) are not entitled to citizenship, but may, as I stated previously, be given a chance at such, for humanitarian reasons.
CTLAWYER,
see my post, it’s not “most” but particularly one composer.
It’s a mixed forum, it seems.
Some threads are devoted to lite topics(funny even), some for personal advice, and some halachic and political items.
While what you say is true,(although searches may bring comments on this forum to the attention of outsiders), it is still important because the political topics are put in the minds of some of those who would, otherwise, possibly just continue in their carefree world of lite topics(which, without a doubt, are essential because they provide a reprieve from all those heavy subjects) and never give these topics a care.
Real halacha I would look elsewhere but talking mussar and ethics is also essential because, like the political topics, it makes one think of important subjects we might avoid.
Actually, a “life or death” situation could arise, if someone was despondent and didn’t know where to turn, reading an inspirational comment could help a person, and the reverse, G-d forbid, could also be true.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
I think the origin of that expression is more objectionable than only tznius.
Many operas (who frequently have “fat ladies”, women who need to have the capacity to project to a huge opera house) are not often concluded by a “fat woman” singing.
Mozart and Rossini usually have a chorus or ensemble.
Verdi and Puccini frequently have duets.
Donizetti has a variety.
The type of opera that almost always is sung by a large woman because the orchestra is so large is Wagnerian opera.
About “being over”, the length of Wagner’s operas are always excessively long, so one would ask, “When is it going to be over(finally)?”
Wagner, has a preoccupation with women, especially in “Tristan und Isolde”, where I believe this expression came from, and the final scene has the “fat lady” singing until she dies.
So I think that, definitely, frum Yidden shouldn’t use this term.
There are some cute suggestions here, but if one wants to continue in the music mode of the original, one could say “till the cymbals clash and the timpani roll.”(Just got thru listening to Mahler.) 🙂
My gosh people! it’s 3 days until Tisha B’Av! can’t we, at least, during THIS TIME, stop judging who the “rasha” is? If you stretch your mind a little, you could find some leniency for each one.
The thread originator asked, “am I delaying the Moisiach?”
My answer is, “Yes, but we all are.”
I’ll leave that term for the real rashaim, the non-Jews, who oppress our people.
May we soon love one another and soon see Tisha B’Av turned into a great holiday. Amen.
I know I said I dropped out but I just wanted to post this reference.
Former Ambassador Michael Oren is a lot smarter than me and much more eloquent.
If you want to read why he thinks it was a bad deal and the alternative(which is the same as most members suggested here) please refer to the article posted today, July 22 on Arutz7.
“‘Americans, This Deal Imperils Your Families'” by Ari Yashar.
“all of the palestinians who were displaced by the zionists.”
I like your post except for that one line above.
Most of the Arabs that lived in Palestine(the old name for Eretz Yisrael in that region of the Ottoman Empire) were not in great numbers and the wealthy ones fled with the conflict, most of who we today call “Palestinians” came from neighboring areas in response to the building taking place in Eretz Yisrael, largely brought about by the Zionists.
I guess the “green pastures” and “killing fields” you refer to are those associated with WWI, I’ve read that there was much, much suffering in the Old Yishuv as a result of that conflict, which dried up all the halukka from abroad and then the Zionists came and took over the halukka and gave it out according to their priorities which involved, from such benign things as teaching Hebrew to such serious matters as interfering with the Torah instruction of centuries old tradition, sort of like the last government.
So, according to your assessment the original NK were the Ashkenazi Old Yishuv, composed of the perushim, the disciples of the Vilna Gaon. I saw that in Wiki, but didn’t believe it but now I do. Thanks.
MDG,
Well it is sad but it started from somewhere, and I was just trying to get a reason for it.
Let’s hope that it will end soon and we’ll all be in Eretz Yisrael, as one Am Yisrael. Amen.
If they are a danger or damage your property you can get someone to trap them and give them an injection.
They are no different than the mice or the groundhog that was eating my tomatoes and destroying my whole garden. I got a trapper whose job usually involved trapping skunks but this time it was a groundhog.
State and Interstate regulations prohibit transporting the animal to the countryside because they may end up confused and dead on the highway.($10,000 fine)
The cats in your yard are a result of someone’s negligence who released an animal that they were tired of.
An economic liability, and especially a health hazard, should outweigh the consideration for animals that the Torah expects us to show us to animals.
A shelter will probably give then to another home where they’ll outstay their novelty and again be thrown on the street.
I’m certainly not a rav,so if you think there’s a problem, go ahead and ask.
This was just another opinion that most would be afraid to post.
Ubiq: I knew that would be your reply, but the evil of “doing nothing” is doing nothing against the DEAL. The doing nothing of not implementing a bad deal and keeping sanctions is a WEAK WAY of doing something, not preferred, but INFINITELY BETTER than all the things we’ve listed are negative about this deal.
In response to:
ubiq:”2) I dont “support” the deal. (Though this doesnt address your point since I dont protest it either)
OK, I’ll leave it to others, I have a weak constitution.
Shalom
Ubiq:
Go back a page and you’ll see the facts(or as I stated above “filtered facts”, Definition:”facts”that we ALL use, subject to our exposure to certain media, situations) that I presented, also others.
What is that saying by Edmund Burke?
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
I would like to ask the originator of this thread why he is so against the Medinat Israel?
A day or two ago, my husband and I were talking about what drives the feeling behind the Neturei Karta movement ?
We thought that perhaps it stemmed from the murder of deHaan???
You know that there are sometimes elements outside the government(or, in this case pre-government) that are rogue and commit violent acts without official sanction or are actually a separate organization, such as, the murder of Rudolf Israel Kastner. This murder, like possibly deHaan’s, could have been committed by such a rogue “CIA” type organization.
An actual act that involved the Haganah, the official pre and post government military organization, was the Altalena affair, in which many Irgun members were killed and tons of precious arms were destroyed.
Menachem Begin forgave those perpetrators and forged the united fighting force that saved the Jewish people of Israel and led to the defense of the nascent State of Israel.
What if he had held grudges and felt that his way was the only way?
G-d forbid, there would have been a massacre and, even worse, fratricide!
It is a noble role to be the “Guardians of the City” but, sometimes, HKBH may want to give others a chance to guard in a way that is easier and more appropriate for themselves.
Please don’t discount the attempts by others to serve H’ in a way, that their own way, even if it’s lacking in many aspects.
Let’s try to love one another, an excess of love over an excess of zeal.
ubiq,
We all repeat ourselves with the facts and you claim that your facts are better, less tainted with your so-called “knee-jerk” reaction than ours. All you keep saying is the deal is better than none and no other plan will work.
At least I’m honest (to you and most importantly to myself) about my opinions being just what they are opinions.
Why bother to attend that rally, it’s to protest the deal, you support it.
Sorry coffee addict, I will go off topic a little but it is relevant because part of the reason we distrust the Iranian deal is because we distrust it’s main supporter, Obama.
In response to ubiq,
You mentioned being a “fact supporter” and not a “Obama supporter” and listed about 7-8 rumors???, unflattering stereotypes that people use to describe Obama.
Basically, I have never ascribed to any of those stereotypes, partly because I don’t think they are true and partly because they give fuel to people like you, who profess “rationality” and “facts.”
In truth, most of what we see, either positive or negative about Obama, is what the media wants/permits us to see. Our own leanings and prejudices account for what, how much, or if we do or don’t accept what they show us.
One thing I believe about Obama is that his plan/vision of America is different from what I (and people like former Mayor Giuliani) have grown to believe in. How about you? Was his plan what you believed in?
I saw this on PJMedia in a comment by a reader called reedville on an op-ed titled “Obama’s World” by Richard Fernandez, that was written after the Iran deal. I will post it here and state that it mainly represents (In contrast to the comment, I feel he is a skilled speaker, even if he does sometimes use teleprompters) how I, also, feel about Obama. It does not include any of those stereotypes that you wrote about him previously.
“People spend a lot of time trying to figure out what informs and motivates Obama’s thinking and purposes. Is he purely a radical leftist, is he a Reverend Wright/Saul Alinsky sock puppet, is he a radical anti-western anti-colonialist, is he an incompetent teleprompter pot-head, is he an arrogant, egotistical maniac, a narcissistic fantasist, a man in search of a legacy at any cost? No doubt he is all of these things. And all of these things are simply about power in search of a validating narrative. But the thing that is really disturbing is that all of these represent only political abstractions at best. Facts have nothing to do with any of them. Ominously, real people and their well-being are utterly irrelevant, and in most cases an impediment, to any of these formulations. Obama is as stone cold as you can get and we are all expendable in his calculations as this blog has previously demonstrated. We are dealing with pure evil here, and I wonder how many people still can’t wrap their heads around that.
(reedville’s comment to Belmont Club’s Richard Fernandez’s op-ed “Obama’s World)
For me, obviously not for you yet, unfortunately, there has been enough evidence to support me to have this reaction to him. I wouldn’t buy a used car from the man, let alone trust him with the fate of my country (either of them).
Wake up already!
sushi: you should address that apology to coffee addict, it’s his thread.
“How?”
Because they would not have gotten:
Freeing up of other sanctions, for arms and ballistic missiles,
Giving them $100-150 billion to sponsor Hezbollah, Assad, Hamas, and the Houthis.
Help in protecting from sabotage
Recognition
I went to some effort previously to explain how the sanctions have not been in place for really long enough because of Obama foot dragging and secret meetings. PM Netanyahu believes that not only keeping but increasing sanctions maybe effective, I trust him more than Obama, I’d be inclined to believe him.
Even if they aren’t effective than the 4 points I have (AGAIN) outlined above are better than this deal, which you admitted Iran will break anyway.
If your point is that all political action is fruitless and the only recourse is to daven, well you are right. I did not get excited about this deal until it appeared that it was going to be signed during the Three Weeks and that means that we have to wake up to see that it is Divinely ordained. I remembered that Mordechai and Esther actually did something when there was Hester Panim and we should, in our own small way, attempt to do something as well.
The PM believes that even if the UN has dropped sanctions, the US sanctions are more important (I was wrong about this, he knows more) and additionally they send a message to the world, “Israel does not stand alone.” I think that observant Jews, especially should go to the rally on Wed. and call and write their Congressmen. We each can do our small part.
You should read up more on how practical it would be for Iran to be called out over small to medium violations. See Tuvia Brodie’s Blog on Arutz7.
I don’t know your political leanings because I rarely post comments on the news pages and only recently in CR, but if your ACA comment is any indication, it seems that you are quite a staunch Obama supporter. It’s sad that so many Jews still cling to this man, at this late date. I would think that when even Haaretz publishes an article against the Iran deal, it’s way past time for any Israel loving Jew to finally abandon this man whose ideas have led to so much harm.
Wake up, there’s still time.
Now, I’ve about run out of patience explaining over and over, so, I’ll give others the chance to defend the PM’s position.
Kol tuv
In other forum’s I’ve participated in, it was considered in poor taste to start a thread when another thread dealing with the same subject existed. We are talking about active threads here, and the “Iran Bomb” thread is active and covers the same topic.
Perhaps you never instituted such courtesies on this site, I don’t know, I’m not much of a participant, until recently.
Wow! I can’t believe it , parroting Obama’s talking points.
Who are you guys?
Thanks for the insult.
No, I think that Iran’s nuclear facilities should be sabotaged if they are not being used to provide electricity or medical products, apparently I’m in good company seeing that the senior Israeli diplomat. also concurred.
Why should you not want to sabotage their facilities if there is ANY chance that they are working on the bomb? (You know, they can, even openly do some work)
“IF they dont keep their end, the deal is void.”
Oh, how much do they have to violate to void because if they violate a little and the sanctions “snap back”(are presented to the UN for discussion, we know how the UN works), then Iran has it in the agreement they can void the deal.(really effective!)
Plus, how do we know they are not violating? Giving 24 day notice will certainly provide much ease in hiding. (Now, we see where the 24/7 came from, I guess we were very stupid to think it meant 24 hr./7 days a week, instead of 24 days/7 days, what do you expect from,”If you like your health plan you can keep it?”)
No agreement would have been better and even though they constantly said they would not sign and they’d walk away from a bad one, they didn’t, plus the freeing up of other sanctions, arms and ballistic missiles, plus all the US sanctions dropping giving them $100-150 billion to sponsor Hezbollah, Assad, Hamas, and the Houthis. Plus, help in protecting from sabotage, whatever that means.
There is little to be done because Obama is hurrying to the UN to release the sanctions, even before Congress gets a chance to review but, at least, if concerned US citizens flood their Congressmen with requests to keep sanctions in place, at least then, they will not get the billions from the US to sponsor terror and maybe it will send a message to other ally nations that the US does not deal with evil. Also, if the US starts exporting oil, as the GOP Congress has put forth, then the world market will be even more glutted with oil and the prices drop further and will diminish their relief further.
It would have been better to not have negotiated until they had really exhausted their funds in the Syrian front but that wasn’t our “dear” POTUS’s plan.
You guys have that choice to make, sit back and say, “Oh my, nothing we can do.” -OR- Fight it.
In response to the poster who said that the protection for sabotage against Iran’s nuclear program is”speculation” by Arutz7, perhaps Israel HaYom is considered more trustworthy.
“The US needs to defend Iran from an attack on its march to an Iranian (nuclear) bomb, because of the excuse that the nuclear (facilities) are for civilian purposes?,” fumed a senior Israeli diplomat at the Prime Minister’s Office quoted by Israel Hayom.
Also the exact location in the deal is reported,
“article 10 on page 142 of the 159-page deal”
There is a lot more to this deal than just the “excuse” that there is no better deal, many additional allowances and even help are included.(See my former posts)
Besides the fact that it actually “legalizes” their acquisition of the bomb.
There is another thread dealing with this issue.
See my comments there.
tirtza:” I haven’t read the agreement but this is not speculation, they referred to a certain section.”
ubequitin,:”I have, it is speculation”
Where can I see the whole document?
Did you read the section at the end, “Nuclear Safety, Safeguards and Security?”
They quoted (WITH QUOTATION MARKS) from that section,
“”E3/EU+3 parties, and possibly other states, as appropriate, are prepared to cooperate with Iran to establish a Nuclear Safety Centre in Iran, engage in workshops and training events in Iran.”
but then,
“co-operation in the form of training courses and workshops to strengthen Iran’s ability to prevent, protect and respond to nuclear security threats to nuclear facilities and systems as well as to enable effective and sustainable nuclear security and physical protection systems.”
Check it out again
First of all, I could care less at this point what any president did or would have done, we are talking about today.
ubequitin,
I think that the way you take each point that I bring up and appear to answer it is quite clever but you are not answering the points at all, you are just latching on to something that you can argue about,like the “suffering” bit, you know that was not the point.
The “allies” was a reference to Israel and Saudi Arabia, which is in quotation marks because they are not being treated as allies.
Of course, EU is chomping at the bit to get into trade with Iran.
You are reaching when you claimed the fear mongering, the initial report was on A7 but there was confirmation by Daniel Pipes, a respected analyst. I haven’t read the agreement but this is not speculation, they referred to a certain section.
I was not making a personal attack against you, but trying to stimulate your heart, an emotional appeal, but I guess that only works with people who are not already convinced that they know the right answer.
Of course, I think H’ is the Director of all things but we are expected to play our role.
I’m very glad that I have returned to Israel because, being a person that experiences guilt easily, I would have hated to be stuck in America with Obama or his successor and something bad to happen to Israel, either by a nuclear attack or serious attacks thru Iran’s proxies. Here I’m with my people and I’ll suffer their fate without regret, you in the US will just have to suffer guilt if something happens and you did not try, even, to prevent it.
I’m not trying to make you feel guilt, it’s just my reaction and may be yours as well, if, G-d forbid, something happens.
One thing you can do, which I’m sure you will do, is pray intensely for the safety of Israel and the destruction of our enemies. It is the Nine Days and we should not be arguing among ourselves but concentrating on getting all of Am Yisrael to unite and beseech H’, there are so many crises that need His intervention.
A Gutten Vok, Shavua Tov
Forgot one important point,
Meanwhile, giving them access to all that money means that they can fund terrorism and help to kill Jewish soldiers and reign terrorist missiles and mortar on Israeli homes.
Your complacency, enables that EVIL to take place.
Just think that, when you support Obama and his minions, you are endangering my youngest son(who is in Hesder) and my daughters in Haifa, within close reach of Hezbollah missiles(Iranian supplied,) along with countless other Israeli families. Perhaps when you think in personal terms, it will move you.
That’s talking about near future, in the slightly more distant future, you may be talking about your own homes, (G-d forbid) and worse missiles or EMP.
You just don’t call it quits when EVIL threatens.
A gutten Shabbos , Shabbat Shalom, to all.
ubequitin,
There are ways to punish China and Russia, if they don’t support sanctions.Like “forget” to pay the debt.
Stir up Eastern Europe against Russia and “reset” again and build the missile shield in Poland.
What! we just go, oh my! no options, let the bad guys win, is that the American way! Well, I guess if the people who should no better than anyone else, what is right and what is wrong, what is true and what is false, what is of value and what is transient, what is freedom and what is slavery, I’m talking about good observant Jews here, well I guess then, if this “fever” has infected even the likes of these, then there really is no hope in man and only H’ can solely save us.
Let’s hope that Iran slips up (or N. Korea) and then maybe again we’ll see the “Sleeping Giant” rise from the ashes. Nothing else is going to help to stir the complacent mood.
Besides , there is plenty of evidence that Iran, even with China, and to a lesser extent Russia, violating the sanctions, was suffering, and Pitom! let’s start “negotiations.”
Support for rebels against the regime does not consist of platitudes of “I support the Iranian people in their quest for freedom.” It involves actively getting help to them , Obama, Clinton, et. al. had no trouble finding a way to support Libyan , a.k.a Muslim Brotherhood rebels. They always find a way to support those who they are truly friendly with.
I really can’t believe that some people (I’ve developed an aversion to the word “folks”(wonder why)) cannot see how this has played out.
First you delay sanctions that, implemented earlier, could have more impact.
Second, you sneak around behind your legislative body and “allies”back and start negotiations, aimed at legalizing the Iranian path to the bomb
Third, you set up public “negotiations” when the sanctions are starting to take effect.
Fourth, you not only give them a path to the bomb but legalize trade in arms and ballistic missiles
Fifth, You make no mention of the most secret Installations or intercontinental ballistic missile systems.
Sixth,You make agreements to help them protect against any sabotage of their work and research, thereby thwarting a reasonable method Israel has to slow down or thwart their path.
NO GUYS, there was “NOTHING” that could have been done other than this deal.
Truth is this deal was wanted, planned for and sought after, it was more trouble convincing the French than the Iranians, because the Iranians had nothing to lose and for the US “negotiators” it played into their primary intention, to set up a new order in the M.E.
@ ubiquitin,
Actually the sanctions are what brought Iran to the bargaining table.
Obama stalled and stalled Congress to get them in place, and they were hard to get in place to discard them for a hope and a prayer is very misplaced.
More sanctions can make the Iranian economy even more insecure and stimulate people to rebel against their tyrannical leadership.
Actually, Daniel Pipes was addressing options (they were for Israel but could apply to international efforts, as well) and his second option was for sabotage against the program, both viruses like Stuxnet and other physical acts of sabotage.
If they wanted to thwart the bomb, they could, unfortunately their greed for trade with iran blinds them, and well Obama, what his plan?
It’s good to have the threat of military attack on the table but to keep them guessing.
That’s what he’s counting on, the basic generosity and goodness of people.
As far as treason, you’d need a critical media to be able to gather evidence for that charge to work.
For me, the open mike, “I”ll have more flexibility after the elections,” spoken to a Russian official sets off enough alarms.
Maybe it’s not treason, maybe a president can make a decision to discard allies with similar principles and go with the “strong horse”(or ruthless horse) but it shows a departure from most executive leaders in the past. They might not have been particularly pro-Israel but they were not going to discard a democratic nation for a rogue state.
This is a “reset” and we’re being kicked off the “preferred list”.
Granting Israel lots of grants to buy American technology (and test and approve it for them) in no way makes up for creating the situation that precludes that aid in the first place. Sort of like that old Dylan song, “Masters of War.”
Sorry but Eisenhower was right when he warned about the dangers of the “industrial-military complex” and it’s funny to see a so-called “peace” candidate like Obama, fostering so much hatred and war on the nation and the world. But, did you ever think that was his plan? A new world order can sometimes be achieved thru anarchy. (G-d forbid). Is that “terribly misguided” leader’s plan?