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Poshut:
“We should not drink with them, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be friends with them. “
The reason chazal instituted that we shouldn’t drink with them is in ORDER THAT WE DON’T BECOME FRIENDS WITH THEM. There are many other stringencies by chazal that stress the importance of keeping ourselves separate from the goyim.
Rebbe had a relationship with Antoninus, because these two giants were the fulfillment of a nevua made thousands of years earlier (when rivka was pregnant with the twins). To infer from that relationship that it’s okay to have social relationships with goyim is to ignore everything else the gemara and halacha has to say on the subject.
Poshut Yid:
Either you misunderstood me or i misunderstand you.
In my earlier post, all I was doing was differentiating between tochacha and kanaus. I said that I doubt anyone on this blog is giving tochacha, but rather i said it came from a sense of kanaus-IF ANYTHING.
Secondly, moving on to kanaus, By quoting R’ Wachsman, and showing how Pinchas saved the nation with his kanaus, the point was that kanaus might just be the thing we need to save us today. my last line was the key: “But maybe we can learn what kanaus really means (and may i add, WHEN AND HOW TO BE A KANAI) being zealous for hashem and his torah and not for personal reasons. I only took issue with your general statement of “let’s ban kanaus” when kanaus is a very important concept in yiddishkeit.
But you’ve gone completely off on a tangent with your proof. I agree with you that gentle words are better “divrei chachamim benachas nishmaim). That is quite obvious to anyone and needs no proof. Your example is quite far-fetched, excuse me for saying so. Who exactly in their right mind goes over to a frei person and starts yelling at them to keep shabbos??? Did you ever have such an experience, or can you even conceive of such a scenario? Most people who are into kiruv teach shabbos in a very non-pressuring, loving way. So lets get real about this.
Lastly, I agree that any frei person has a right to ask for proof, and in fact I think any person, even an ffb may and should ask questions in order to understand. (The main thing is that the questions should come from a place of temimus and sincerity not from rebelliousness). You should realize one reason why there is so much angry give and take on this blog can be because the “kanaim” feel that some people are asking questions or making comments just to mock or belittle, and not because they sincerely wish to learn.(like rabbiof berlin says). Or because they deliberately warp daas Torah. I am sure that if any of the “kanaaim” thought that a question came from a sincere desire to know, they would answer respectfully without antagonism.
But getting back to the issue at hand, I do think thak that people on this blog should try to temper their words a bit and try not to put people down. On the other side of the coin, other people need to ask themselves if the questions they ask or the comments they make are made in ernestness, and not because they want to bait people, or put down what they hold to be holy and true. And if the answer is “NO” –what are you gaining??
just me: that is a very simple question. Of course it was not proper. But it probably is NEVER proper to yell at ANYONE in public, or even private without knowing who he is. That doesn’t negate the responsiblity of every frum yid to adddress his own attitude on this important inyan and see if it’s lacking. Just because one time, one person did something wrong by yelling at someone for something he did, doesnt mean it’s okay to do that thing…
“trying” is the key word here. Its rather more sad than funny to use a warped sense of humor to attack and villify Gedolim and emunas chachamim.
As to your question itself, if it would be stated with a bit of humility and temimus, it would be a valid and good question. But I will leave that to the Talmidei chachomimon on this site to address.
Nameless: Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penima is a pasuk in Tehillim.(45:14)
As any passuk in Tanach, it can be learned on many levels, literally and figuratively. Look into the commentators.
Poshut, I understand a little more where you’re coming from, somewhere in between two different worlds, perhaps, not fitting in with either. (Though I don’t know if you grew up in this way as well or you evolved thus over the years.)
I hear what you have to say about chareidim, but let me try to explain why I think you have such a low opinion of chareidim.
I think you don’t really underdstand where they are coming from, and your perceptions of their motives are just that- perceptions. You perceive them through the eyes of someone who is not really part of them, and therefor you misunderstand alot of what makes them tick. (You can argue that the same is true of Chareidim not really understanding secularists. This is true. But we are not trying to say that we understand them or are part of them. This is a chareidi site after all)
Take for example the issue with the state of Israel. You write “…and the chareidim show true overflowing ahavah and thanks towards the soldiers, with gedolei yisroel making speeches of thanks (and possibly apologizing as well for the historic negative attitude towards the state). ” You say this because you feel there is what to apologize for. Go and study the writings of the gedolim and their opinions and maybe you’ll understand how the chareidi “negative” attitude towards the state was based on their daas torah! Maybe the Zionists should apologize to the Torah world for the way they treated us??? Go research for yourself about the tremendous abuse the early Zionists afflicted on the frum survivors of Europe after ww2. and how they kidnapped the yemenite children, and covered up their tracks. And read up about the massive sin’a they continue to harbor against the chareidim. There is enough written evidence and proof to these things. You write about chareidim “They either deny the existence of things they don’t want to hear, or else ban them.” this perfectly describes those that defend the zionists. (Do you know that the book “perfidy”, which exposes zionists shocking betrayal of the Jewish plight during WW2 was banned from being sold in Israel for many years?? If you havent read it–you must)
So what should the chareidim apologize for exactly? And none of this even touches upon the core issues of whether or not we may recognize the state of israel, whether taking eretz yisroel by force was halachically permissible, which is too complex to go into now. But do your self a favor and OPEN your mind and go learn about why chareidim hold the positions they do. Why the gedolim of yesteryear, from the satmar Rav to the brisker Rav and everyone in between, held the way they did. You may be surprised at some of the assumptions you have that are based in a fallacy.
I say this based on your comments about the chareidi world in many of the posts. I feel, by reading them that you really are a sincerer Jew who loves Hashem, and much of what you write displays a strong feeling for yiddishkeit. But you are living in a world of ditorted reality (vis-a-vis chareidim) You are like on the edge looking in, but not really grasping what you see, just coming up with your own conclusions.
You remind me a bit of a Shabbos guest we used to have. He was ostensibly “frum” but his hashkafos were so out of whack, it was incredible. He didnt necessarily believe in Torah Shebaal Peh. He once said to me, “I feel I really got a well rounded education. For elementary school i went to a yeshiva day school, and for high school i went to a prep school. So I know both Torah and secular knowledge, as opposed to yeshiva guys who “only” studied Torah.” He fancied himself more qualified and intelligent because he was in both worlds.
If it wasn’t so sad, i would have laughed out-right. He thinks he knows Torah because he learned until 9th grade?! But the point is he truly felt he was a part of our world, and therefor could make judgements. In fact he hadn;t even gotten a taste.
I don’t mean to compare you to him exactly, because you obviously know more Torah than he does. But as far as thinking you understand the chareidi situation, there the similarities lie.
I can’t help but wonder if you don’t find it frustrating to communicate with chareidim in this website and what you gain by it?
There is alot to comment on your letter, as you are probably wondering why I decided that you don’t undersatand chareidim, but i will limit myself to one more thing you wrote because it is late and i need to go to sleep.
You write, “They are afraid of secular knowledge,… So when I hear a chareidi knocking science, which is quite common, I think he must be from another planet.” This line is so obtuse! Firstly, the science community themselves don’t agree on alot of things, For example Global warming is to some a fact and others a contrived fantasy. I dont know which camp you’re on and neither do i care, but there are legitimate respectable scientific minds that hold either way. Same thing in the medical world. I recently heard from a promenant frum doctor the following, “As a doctor, I have very little faith in medicine. I have faith only in the RBSO. The doctors know less than one percent of what there is to know wbout the human body. ” I could go on and on, but what emerges is that ALOT of what we call sciense is only theory, not fact. The best example of this is the Theory of Evolution which is the only one taught in schools across the country. If you want to somehow fit evolution into the Torah account in Bereishis and say it’s not a contradiction, thats your choice (some have done so), I have no problem with it. But you can hear why we Jews, who are known to be the most cynical of peeople are not ready to swallow any theory in the name of science. it doesnt make us backwards or deniers. That being said, I think that all chareidi schools teach science so it’s not like its a “chareidi shitah” to abolish any learning of science.
If you don’t undersatnd why the Gadol you mentioned doesnt use daylight savings, be humble about it (your trademark, RIGHT?) and know that you just dont understand, but do not judge by saying where is it geting us? what do YOU understand about why a tzaddik does what he does??
If you want to know the meaning of true ahavas yisroel, you will only find it by the chareidim. Did you ever hear of stories of secularists coming out and doing chessed with people? There was a beautiful story written by Nachman seltzer and published by the hamodia recently (do you read that chareidi paper?) about a rabbi Dovid Goldwasser (I Think)who heard there was a army camp of some 600 soldiers not far from his moshav who had no food or adequite supplies. When they had a day off, he invited them to his moshav, gave them a pool to swim in, gourmet food, provided music, etc then gave them beds with quilts…in the morning he presented them with a new change of clothes (600 sets!) and new army equipment they were lacking. This was a very moving story about a CHAREIDI displaying ahavas yosroel to SECULAR chayalim without any motive of being mekarev them, simply because they were jews. These storie are not always publicized, but they are out there.
Remember this: what we are against is the zionist philosophy, and the secular ideas. NoT the people themselves, who by and large today are in the category of tinok shenishbu.
I hope i have not offended you in any way with my long post. It was not my intention. Rather, you seem to be a sincere chap who deserves to know the truth. If I did, I ask mechila.
“Tzinius, like Shabbos, is a HALACHIC issue. If someone violates tzinius, EVERY person, man or woman, has a HALACHIC OBLIGATION to kindly inform the perpetrator that they are in violation of halacha (unless they know with absolute certainty that the tzinius violator will refuse to listen and continue violating the Torah.) “
Joseph, do you mean that statement literally? You mean to say that when you see a MAN conducting himself in a less than tzniusdik fashion, you give him tochacha?? Or is it only the women you worry about?
Jphone, for someone who learns halacha (i assume) you may not be used to the concept of “gray area” In many other areas of halacha, things are very black and white, to the minute or degree of whatever the issue is. In tznius, besides for the four areas on the body which are measurable (including married womans hair), the rest of the clothing issue is not so black and white. The basic rule of thumb is that women should not dress in a manner which will attract attention to herself. But within that, the woman has to use her binah to know how to apply that. Unfortunately, that binah is not so developed in some, and in other cases, different people will disagree with what is considered untzniusdik. A woman might choose something which covers her elbows well etc. but the color is in the opinion of some people flashy, while others will contend its not.
I say this so you men may appreciate a bit of the struggle that goes on for some of these girls. It would be great if they could look to their teachers as role models and imitate their dress, but often this is not practical, as the teacers are like 4o years older and dress as befits an older woman.
I work alot with Bais Yaakov High school girls and i find that sometimes even the “good girls” from good families, who are the “star bais yaakov girls” struggle with knowing whats appropriate.
The problem is compounded when you think about how fast styles change. Anything thats too “in style” is not tzanua, but after a while, when it is not so new and attention grabbing, it is fine to wear (assuming it covers any part that needs to be covered) That is what they teach in bais yaakov, and again that is not so clear-cut.
I don’t believe those “urban legends” of rabbis measuring skirts. that would be so perverse. but the rebbetzins in the bais yaakovs frequently did so, in a loving manner, hopefully, to insure the girls dressed appropriately.
I think the answer is to have a tznius awareness campain, RUN BY WOMEN such as what bnos melochim is doing in every school. But having men on this site comment on their hihurim and on womens clothes is just so distasteful, to put it mildly. mEN, PLEASE FOCUS ON YOUR ISSUES. YOU’LL BE ALOT BETTER OFF.
(about r’ Simcha Bunim Cohn, he is a prominant Posek who i’m sure has a far better message to convey than you girls are making me and other men sin!)
I agree with all the critisism against “now are you happy.” Probably the only true statement you said is “I do not feel for you and my heart does not go out for you.”
Just imagine it was your 13 year old posting this. I wouldnt blame her, as she obviously would not get understanding from you, her parent.
Teenof13, the above recomendations may help you. In addition, you may try to write a respectful but sincere letter to your father and share with him how you feel. sometimes seeing things on paper drives home the message more. It may also help you to sort out your feelings. Finally, you can always ask your father in Heaven for help, He always listens and hears, and no tefillah is ever wasted.
The worst thing you can do is let these negative feelings fester inside yourself. negative emotions can cause all sorts of negative reactions which you want to avoid. Try to keep upbeat, despite the situation, work your feelings out but with the aim to do the best you can, not just to vent.
Good Luck!
Big one, if they do that, who will all the kana’im argue with?
I can only try
Thanks for your interesting stories. As far as the halacha question, dinei mamunos questions are very intricate and you’d be best off asking a competent rav.
Rabbiof berlin:
It seems you have an unusual knack for distorting or misreading the posts. But maybe I was not so clear, so I’ll try to clarify.
“mmm…”Think BIG” you wrote; (of course,even if someone is not frum he can still be Jewish……nor is he recognized as a Jew) HUH? is he or isn’t he a jew?”
meaning, he IS technically, halachically a Jew without question. But he is not RECOGNIZABLY JEWISH. If you look at him or talk to him you may not know he is a jew, and he may not know it either. (unless you are one of those experts who can always spot a jew by his nose..:) The point of this sentense in the post was to say that when we say “Jews are the best” we dont mean that the Jewish “race ” is a superior race. Saying so would be like what the Aryans claimed. Rather it is the Torah which we keep that makes us the best. Jews by birth, who were raised without torah, behave just like goyim. And a goy, who converts to Judaism are included in the term “Jews are Best”
Also, what in the world does the mishne have to do with anything. Kol Yisroel yesh lahem chelek refers to the world to come. we are talking about how people behave in this world. Weitzman etc, surely received a share in the world to come. I don’t know what type of share, but again, I don’t think they were the focus of this conversation. see thepost by NativeIsrael, it expresses it beautifully. Those organizations are only run by Frum People.
“…einstein even freud may be part of this discussion,sinply becuase Hashem Yisboraxch gave us jews that great matonoh “torah’ and all wisdom, even secular wisodom derives from it. “
This too seems circular.The torah contains all wisdom- true. But does that mean anybody that majors in any wisdom should be part of the discussion?. The fact that Einstien and Freud were Jewish is completely BESIDE THE POINT because they did not study the Torah and extrapolate its wisdom to arrive at their conclusions.
anon for this:
“Do you mean to say that you would never use any medication/ medical procedure/ medical research that’s been tested on animals, or non-Jews? After all, if an animal or a non-Jew (I’m not equating the two, obviously) are so different from you, anything tested on them wouldn’t work for someone on your level of existence. Or would you never use anything invented by someone who isn’t Jewish?”
You either miread or misunderstood my post. I said we look the same but we have a different spiritual makeup. that means that in the physical wrelm we most certainly would benefit from medicine, etc tested on non-jews. in many ways we are similar to animals too, as you said.
But all the rest of your post is taking the warped idea and running with it.
As far as using parenting books, that’s different, because there we deal with the emotional/spiritual component of the child. So I don’t agree with your conclusion, that “Just as medical advances & scientific discoveries apply to M’daber & Yisroel apply to all of us, so too can other innovations, including parenting books (assuming that these have been checked for anti-Torah ideas).”
“I think that all of us agree that as Jews we do have a higher spiritual purpose; as such, we should expect more of ourselves than of the non-Jews around us, and comparisons to non-Jews are therefore irrelevant. Rather, we should all be the best we can be. After all, to follow your argument, would you bother writing about how you are superior to an animal? “
I didn’t start this post but I assumed the the purpose was to encourage people to take pride in our abilities and uniquness and recognize the obligations we have thefore. Unfortunately some people who post their comments here seem to be unaware or deluded in this regard.
meyers, I hear your point, but you could probably say the same for everyone of his songs. In wake Up, he keeps quoting the yetzer Hara, “Sleep is good, my watch is broken, go back under your covers, etc” And then switching to the yetzer tov. If a kid sings just one part, he will also maybe get the wrong message.
In general, it could be his lyrics are a bit mature for kids, but it doesnt mean its a bad message. When people produce tapes or literature for that matter, they often gear it to one age or another. This is not marketed as a kids tape. For an adult, though, it’s a very powerful message. It’s up to the parents to screen what their kids read and listen to.
rabbiofberlin:
“Hakodush boruch hu does not make miracles to please “nameless”. ” Are you for real??
HKB”H has His own reasons for making miracles which neither you or I are privy to! But in this case, even if you don’t want to believe the story, it’s pretty rediculous to say Hashem doesn’t make miracles to please nameless. Nameless was merely repeating a story she HEARD, for goodness sakes!
Also, can you explain to me how you resolve this contradiction in your personality: if I believe this “tale” told over by a chashuva women in the name of the Gadol Hador, I am “gullible”, But, you “DO believe in jeshuos from rebbes!” Isn’t that slightly two-faced?
Leib5, come on you want to compare the mussar shmoozen of some Roshei Yeshiva to Rev. Write? Firstly, I believe the goal of the RY is not to be political, but to exhort us to stay away from the evils of materialism that characterizes America (or whichever aspect of the American society that is antithisis to Torah.) I haven’t heard too much of Rev. write personally, but my understanding was that he had a personal grudge against America and Americans for the way they treat Blacks.
On the Contrary, Many Gedolim have called America the medinah shel chessed, and teach that we have to have tremendous hakaras hatov for America.
But all of this is besides the point. We are saying that being under the influence of an extreme Anti-American for 20 years–who happens to be your spiritual leader–reflects on his judgement. (Even if you want to compare it to Roshei Yeshiva, show me one Yeshivah graduate running for president!)The reverend certainly seems imbalanced and almost dangerous. And this is who Obama looked up to for years. Think about it.
I also don’t agree with your last comment that America has not treated The African Americans fairly so we can’t really blame them. Jesse Jackson and his ilk are always using that line of reasoning to excuse their laziness and lack of advancement. As Jews, all we need to do is compare them to our recent history. Its been just about 65 years after 6 million of our people were killed. Most of our ancestors came to these shores broken, without family or money. And look where we are now, b”h.
I think one of the sad outgrowths of the smoking problem amongst our bachurim is that most girl don’t want to date a smoker. This situation leads many to lie about the fact that the prospective date smokes. They somehow justify this lie to themselves, or they say, “he smokes very infrequently” when he actually smokes a pack a day.
Many justify lying about it by saying that many men stop once they get married or have kids, but in reality, many don’t, and if they eventually do, who can measure how much tzaar that couple experienced in sholom bayis because of this issue. Many kallos and wives feel duped when they find out that their friend’s husbands lied to them, when they asked for inormation about this issue. Sometimes the boys themselves lie to. And we are talking here about b’nei Torah who would never cheat, steal or lie in other areas.
This is just one more negative result to the smoking problem, besides for all the health issues. If Bochurim would think for a minute how unattractive this makes them as a shidduch option, and how hard it will be to stop, they would perhaps not light up the first time.
Dear Mrs.L.
Yes it’s hard such a breeah exists and kol hakavod. But please don’t do a huge disservice to the Jewish families out there by insinuating that outside help is unnecessary, and minimizing the monumental effort it must take to keep your house in ship-shape order, raise kids and work out of the home too… Many of our women are juggling multiple roles these days, and just can’t be expected to do everything.(even though you may come across a “supermom” every now and then. Expecting the woman to do everything AND raise kids usually will mean she has much less energy to give to the kids.
Having a cleaning girl come in once, twice or three times a week can be a huge source of menuchs hanefesh, and take the strain off of them. I have heard of families who were buckling under this pressure which resulted in major problems in sholom bayis, and when minimal cleaning help was provided, the problems were subsantalliy alleviated, and sholom bayis was restored.
We all have the same 24 hours a day to work with, and push comes to shove, if I had one hour in which to clean the bathroom or review the chumash with my son, I would choose my son. The cleaning lady is good enough for the bathroom but no one replaces a mother.
I am not suggesting that a woman should be spoiled with full-time help etc, and then ask for tuition assistance (it’s hard to really believe that goes on, but if it does, they are in a minority, and judging them favorably might be in order.)but there is a middle path.
Rebz. Zehava Braunstien a”h is known to have said that if you have extra money, it should go to the cleaning lady. Personally, I would rather forgo a lot of things before giving up on the cleaning help. For many, it is not a luxury but a necessity.
Husbands out there, appreciate the necessity and don’t be stingy with your wives when it comes to this inyan. If money is tight consider giving up something that YOU splurge on.
Bogen: Whoah! That is so extremely warped. Are you, by extention saying that if you wear the right clothes, you ARE davening b’kavana?
Whats going on here is really nit-picking. All the hat-wearers would probably agree that in communities where hats are not worn at all, as in the frum mizrachim or perhaps the yemenites, the hat is not necessary. The issue is not the hat but coming to the RBSO with respect. The mizrachim go to weddings without jackets, ties or hats, and many of them daven with real sincerety.
But in communities where a person does where his hat for formal occasions, by not wearing it to daven, he may be showing disrespect. It all has to do with where you come from. Does canteresque even own a black hat? (I may be wrong, just assuming based on your posts) That doesn’t invalidate him as a Jew.
The point is, its not about the hat or crocs, and this is not a one-size fits all deal. It’s about showing respect to Tefillah. Saying that every jew must wear a black hat is simply absurd. Do you think the Rambam or Rashi wore a black hat?
cantersque:
It IS hard to believe she was in a coma for 73 years, but that is besides the point. Even if she were in a coma for 37 years, (its possible someone misunderstood over here) that was not the point of the story. The point was that her lack of jealousy saved her from decomposing. Don’t pick one detail of the story that sounds exagerated (it may or may not be) to invalidate the story. The idea that a reighteous person does not decompose is not a new one, there are lots of reliable stories with that theme. (if you want verification of this concept, you can probably find it easily enough, though not of this particular story, by asking the Chevra Kadisha in Eetz Yisroel, or authors like Pesach Krohn who reputedly research their stories)
But it takes a gadol of the caliber of R’ Kanievsky to posit a reason why a person merited this zechus.
Pashuteh Yid:
It seems to me that this is not really about tochahcha at all. #1 I doubt these people bashing you really care about you so much to want to help you improve (which I think is a prerequisite for giving tochacha –correct me if I’m wrong on this one guys) #2 If they really sincerely want to fulfill the mitzvah of Hocheach Tochiach, they probably would word themselves very differently.
Rather, I think this is more an issue of kanaus if anything. These people, who are so steeped in Yiras Shomayim and Limud Hatorah and Ahavas Hashem, just can’t bear to read words that display crooked ideas (in their view) against Hashem and His Torah, and therefor they feel a need to protest, lmaan hashem.
It reminds me of a story I once heard in the name of one of the Gedolim. He was asked why when a secular Jew drives his car on Shabbos do people scream “shabbos!” at him. What does it help? Will it stop him from doing it next time?
He replied that when a child falls and hurts himself, he cries. Why? Does it help? No, but “ven es tut vei, veint men!” When it hurts you cry.
That’s real kanaus. I don’t know if this is the real thing or not, but in one of your posts you advocated the Rabbonim making an asifa and banning all kanaus. The “kanaim” you describe (the acid throwers) are indeed a fringe element and what they do goes against the Torah l’chol hadayos. But think about it, will they stop doing these things if an asifa were held about it?? The asifa would simply be a waste of time because these thigs do not apply to normal people.
But then there are some special individuals who are real kanaim, who see a major chillul hashem, and get up there and protest it, sometimes at great risk to themselves. I heard recently in the name of R’ Ephrayim Wachsman that when the b’nos moav were infilterating klal isroel and causing the men to sin, and the whole story of Zimri’s brazen act transpired, no one knew what to do. All the yidden stood around crying, helpless. Only Pinchas got up there and knew what to do. He did the right thing (risking his life in the process) killed Zimri, and thereby stopped the plague.
Hashem later said that if not for Pinchas’s act of kanaus He would have detroyed all of Klal Yisroel.
(Pinchas took his spear -“Romach”- to do this deed [which we would say today was an act of VIOLENCE] , which brought about “Rachem”, [transpose the letters] mercy from Hashem, as this saved Klal Yisroel.)
Today , says R’ wachsman, we have a simlar situation of imorality going on, and we all stand around helpless, not knowing what to do, crying. But here and there we have a kanai like Pinchas who gets up there and knows what to do, and that is what will save us. Ban kanaus? I think not. But maybe we can learn what kanaus really means, being zealous for Hashem and the Torah, not for any personal reasons.
Nameless, there is no contrdiction at all! Before he converts, you dissuade him because you want to make sure he is really serious, and doing it for the right reasons, even though he knows what hardships it may bring him. But once he overcomes that hurdle, we accept him with open arms, love and welcome him and try not to embarrass him for his past. he is a full-fledged jew.
Some people feel uncomfortable with the word “best” here. (I’m not sure why but to each his own)Maybe they would feel more comfortable with this well-known idea.
I think it’s the RaMBaM who classifies the differnt life forms. The lowest is the Domeim, the inatimate object. The next level is the Tzomeach, the plant. Next is Chai, animal, and the one above that is Medaber, the human being who is defined by his intellect and ability to speak. Each level is superior to the one before. But there’s another level which is called Yisroel, who is the most superior of all . The point is that we are as different from the goy as a human is to an animal.
We may look the same, and sometimes act the same, but our neshama has a completely different make-up. we are simply from a different min alltogether.
We are as different to the Amim as Kodesh is to Chol, and as Ohr is to Choshech, as we say in avdala, because Hashem made us different.
This idea is not supposed to make us feel gaavah, but it’s supposed to imbue us with a higher sense of purpose and mission in this world.
Another point I see to this discussion, is that some people have the unfortunate affliction to always go looking in the “fields of moav” for greener pastures. They look to the goyim for inspiration or wisdom. But the truth is that the Wisdom is with us, because we have the Torah which is the source of all wisdom.
A case in point: Many paople like to read parenting books written by non-Jews. The machanchim in the Torah world warn us against this because they are filled with many anti-Torah ideas which we may not always pick up on. But another reason is because they simply will not work! Because those books were written with the goyish kid in mind. A Yiddish child has a different neshoma and therefore a different spiritual make-up! So how can it work for a Yid?
It’s true we have problems in our community (many of which are inumerated and exagerated in the pages of these rooms) But as a group, we are b”h in far better shape than the goyim, spiritually, emotionally and socially. If all you can see is that we are supposed to be better, but we aren’t, maybe you should examine yourself, and/or see who you associate yourself with.
Feif un:
First of all, you can be dan lkaf zechus the bikur cholim guy. Maybe he didn’t see you trying to pull into that spot until it was too late.
2.I think it’s a bit presumptious of you to decide that he probably forfeited his schar for the mitzvah or that he blew it. That is Hashem’s cheshbon, not yours. However, you instead can ask yousef where else besides for by the Yidden do we see the concept of Bikur cholim, and the massive chessed machine that satmar bikur cholim runs is nothing to sneeze at.
mi keamcha yisroel!
Dr. Pepper, I like your idea. Here’s a true story. I heard it from a shabbos guest recently.:
He was backing his car out one day when he banged into another car. He got out and searched around but he didn’t find anyone. So, he stuck a note on the windowshield with his contact info and drove off. Two days later, he gets a call from an autobody shop in regards to the incident.
The Yid said, “oh I’m glad you called.I would like to pay for the damage”
The mechanic said, “I just have one question for you: Are you an orthodox Jew?”
The Yid said, “Yes. Why do you ask?”
He said, “I knew it. The car you banged into belongs to a client of mine who was just here this week fixing her car. She had just picked it up when you banged into it again, so understandably she was very upset. When she brought in her car, I said to her, that from experience I bet you that this is an orthodox Jew. If it is, i told her I’d fix the car free of charge.” And he did.
As Pesach krohn would say, You know who made the kiddush Hashem? Not just the guy who wrote the note, but every other Orthodox Jew who did the same, and shaped the goy’s opinion on Jews.
That’s a Yid!
Pashutah: When we say that Yidden are the best, we refer to TORAH yidden. Because it is the Torah that defines a yid. (of course even if someone is not frum he can still be Jewish, but he hardly carries the flag of Judaism, nor is he recognised as a Jew) So Weitzman, Olmert and the (non religous)zionists are not part of this discussion bichlal. And your whole dugmah with the 98% just doesnt make any sense.
Yes, when we count the Jewish population, we include ALL jews, but even if we wanted to say that when we say yidden are the best we include all 2%, every rule can have exeptions without invalidating the rule.
Anyway, what was your point? That Olmert and Weitzman are really “the best” along with us, or that we are as bad as them?
That was a great poem, willi, and deep too. maybe you should send it in to the yated.
milchig:
1.I don’t see anyone “trashing” anyone’s reputation as no names were mentioned!
2. The point here wasn’t to be “professional” about handling things with the hotel, or getting them to change (though that may not be a bad idea). He was merely trying to warn others to be more careful than he was. read the letter again.
Irhakodesh and milchig:
I think you are missing the author’s point a little . He is upset because he feels he was MISLED. Or at least, he expected one thing and he got something completely different. When you take your wife and kids out for a special shabbos, and it turns out to be a ttally different environment than you wanted to expose your kids to, it can be very upsetting. They did do the basic research, but they didn’t know exactly what they were supposed to look out for. This resulted in a very unpleasant shabbos for them, because when you are paying good money and have certain expectations, and they are not met, you feel disapointed. This is reasonable, despsite the fact that they could have made the best of a bad situation (which they probably did). “Tolerance” has no bearing on the discussion here!
In fact I think the tone of the letter was very apropriate, they were not even blaming the organization. The point was just to be modiah the olam to the situation so that others could save themselves the heartache they went thru. Thank you to the letter writers for taking the time to write.
I don’t know about you guys, but I find blogs and forums to be a royal time-waster. Yes, it’s interesting and entertaining. But are we becoming better people by discussing these ideas? And if (IF!)the answer is yes, isn’t there a better way to grow than through these forums, like learning or going to a shiur or doing a chessed? I am speaking for myself of course, as I am finding myself quite addicted to this. But surely, all the accumulated hours on the computer are ticking away at our lives…
illinio7
No one is refuting that geirim are special people and it is a true honor to be married to one. Baalei Teshuvah too, for that matter, “bemakom shabaalei teshuvah omdim…”
All that’s being said is that it can be very impractical to make a shidduch between a ger and a FFB, not that there’s anything wrong with them c”v!
Joseph, Bogen
No one is refuting that the ger is born anew and has no biological relationship to his parents. But that’s very different than saying “there can be no socializing with them, that’s the halacha.”
True, a convert has the same relationship with his previous parents as with his next-door non-jewish neighbor, but he can certainly be on great terms with his neighbor! the big one: “a jew cannot socialize with a goy”? That statement was bound to be taken out of context. A Jew is not supposed to get into a personal relationship with a goy, and in general we are meant to keep ourselves separate from the goyim. But in the case of a convert, each ger should take counsel from their own Moreh Derech in how to treat the people that brought him into the world. If they supported their child in his quest for truth (which sometimes happens) and the minute the child toivels in the mikveh, he cut these kind gentiles out of his life, that can cause a major chillul Hashem, which is also Assur.
I know of a giyoress who had very supportive parents throughout her journey into yiddishkeit. At her chasunah, (she married a BT) her (ex)father not only paid for the wedding, but spoke and said that he considers it a supreme honor that a child of his joined the chosen peeople.
The couple still visits them and such, though it can be challenging to raise children in a family where “Grandpa” is a goy.
In many cases the family disowns the child for converting (or they think he went crazy and and the conflict erodes the relationship) When that happens, it may be easier in a way because then there are no goyish “relatives” to deal with. Otherwise, I agree with cherrybim completely.
meyers, fYI the Rosh Heyeshivas have been working tirelessly on this issue for the last few years. i think it was last year that they forbade any school to begin the school year until every child was accepted somewhere. and it worked! This is not the “only” problem that Lakewood Rosh Yeshivas have to deal with.
p.s. I don’t think it’s necessary to compare the waiting parents to “dogs”. it’s quite offensive. thank you.
jphone: ditto. that got a smile out of me too.
Pashut:
You are obviously a Talmid chacham who knows alot. Just wondering, do you identify yourself with the Yeshiva (yeshivish) world?
illinio7:
McCain is not a great choice either but I wouldn’t agree that he is certainly “no better”. He has a track record at least, and is not known to be a flip-flopper. Also, when you read his account of his behavior while in captivity, you can’t help but feel the guy has some character.
Everybody has different criteria in how they choose whom to vote for.(Eg, policies, charisma, character, attitude towards Jews and israel,experience, party…) Mine is the character of the nominee. That’s why I voted for Bush, who, no matter what you say about him, is a true- blue honest and decent man. And no one will refute that he really loves America and led the Country in the best way he understood.
The “character” of Obama scares me, if we are to judge him by his friends and his former pastor of 20 years…
Meyers, Lipa is not saying that its okay not to be a tzaddik at all. He is saying he is not YET a tzaddik, but he still keeps on trying, he’s not getting tired. That acknowledges the struggle to perfect ourselves, and not to give up even if we stumble along the way. I think that’s a very GOOD message.
Actually, I thought it was a beautiful song that expresses honestly how someone may feel when he blundered and wants Hashem to help him, because he’s trying to get back on track. (He was obviously alluding to himself and his recent struggle. I think it takes guts and fortitude to sing about one’s personal nisyonos which became public. Most of us never experience that.)
My favorite line in that song is when he says Who knows how to measure a deed? The way things are measured in this world are not necessarily how their measured “up there”..
There’s one aspect to this thread about Tznius that hasn’t been mentioned that I feel needs to be said: The mitzvah of Tznius isn’t all about women needing to be “covered up” to protect the men from michshol and hirhur, though it may be part of it. A broader view of it is that women are by their very essense “pnimius”. (See Rav Shimshon Pincus’s sefarim on this (and many others) that talk about the woman being compared to the moon, and the man to a sun. The man is the giver, more external etc., the woman is internal and the receiever. This is true in many aspects of their relationship.)
The mitzvah of tznius defines a woman and is her very essense. That’s why even if a girl is in a place where their are no men (eg, a girls camp or school), or even on a deserted island, she would still need to maintain her tznius. Its for HER.
For people to take the concept of tznius and say that its function is only to protect the men is reducing it into something very shallow.
Tznius allows for us to focus on her inside, which is her neshoma instead of on her guf. “A girl should be attractive, but not attracting.” See Gila Manolson’s excellent book on tznius called Outside/Inside. It is a must read for any girl or woman who wants a deeper understanding of what tznius means, or for any man who thinks that tznius is put on women to protect His thoughts.
Also, I hate to break it to you guys but a woman who has issues with the tznius dress code is NOT going to be very moved by being told that she is “causing men to have bad thoughts”. But if you explain to her that by calling attention to her body she is basically saying, “that’s all I am , a body! Not a mind, not a neshomah” she may just realize she is reducing herself, and choose to show some more self-respect.
If a woman would apply for a job as an attorney or CPA looking like a bimbo (excuse the word), the interviewer would say,”what are you trying to do by calling attention to your body when applying for a job that requires brains? That makes no sense!”
One final anecdote: In “Holy Woman” by Sara Y. Rigler she relates a story about the Tzaddik, the husband of the “Holy Woman”, Chaya Sara Kramer. He was once fundraising abroad, and stayed in the home of a wealthy man who had a cleaning lady that wasn’t properly dressed. The attendant motioned to Rabbi Kramer that he should strongly protest this.
Rabbi Kramer (who by the way was a Satmar Chassid) answered, “Kukt Men Nisht!” (You don’t have to look!)
I am certainly not advocating that we turn a blind eye to a growing problem that our community has, but the job of men is simply not to look! (and of course, each man should make sure he isn’t pressuring his wife to dress improperly, which is sometimes the case.)
I find an interEsteing phenomenon in these coffee rooms: the men seem very eager to blame the women and comment on the “women’s issues”, but you dont have it in the reverse! I agree with the poster who said that the Choshuva women in every community should address the issue for the women, and not the men. (with the exception of the Gedolim, who give us much chizuk) Wouldn’t it be funny if women started lecturing men on coming to shul on time, not doing bitul Torah or not shaving with a shaver?! Pretty disconcerting to think about, huh?