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jphone: is it halachically permissible for one jew to offer more money to an employee, knowing that it will “steal” her away from nother jew? OF COURSE the employee has the choice. The question is on the employer!
And if it is halachically allowed (which i doubt) it is certainly not mentchlich!
Nameless, i think you may have to start a new thread if you want to talk about farginning and jealousy. This thread evolved into “do we believe in “supernatural” stories.(the expensive vacations thread is getting into that a little. Maybe take the discussiomn there)
Rabbi of berlin, you didnt answer, are you moichel me?
Poshut: I have no issue with the concept of the kallah coming into the men, in the places where that is the accepted minhag and it is done properly (see my earlier post) But I have an issue with your reasoning.
The time of the chassunah (dancing time) is for the chosson to be mesamayach with his male gusts and the kallah to be mesamayach with her female guests. That is how it was done throughout the ages.
Today, with many chassunas being videotaped, the couple can watch it together after and laugh.
I have no experience but it would seem strange to me for a counselor to ask a struggling couple how they felt towards each other during the wedding. During the engagement, i can hear. The wedding is one huge whirlwind of emotions, experience etc. I dont think the chassan is busy thinking about his kallah during the dancing etc, he has a whole roomful of guests he has to focus on. He has hopefully 100 or so years to focus on and build with his kallah. Just my opinion.
There is one more point i want to bring out about a possible problem with the way mitzva tenz are today. Now this is only my OWN personal pet peeve-not to be confused with the halachic problems the (livish)roshei yeshiva have with it. And therefor you are free to argue my opinion, whereas I dont feel it is appropriate for any of us here to argue on the halachic opinion of the latter.
This is not a problem with mitzva tenz in general but with the way it is done today. In my experience most weddings (in America)end on average at 12, then the MT goes on for 2-3 hours. (That is when the MT is done “right”, by the real heimish olam) Close family have to stay till the end. I ask you, is that fair to the close family? These uncles, cousins etc. have to go to shul the next morning, and to yeshiva and work. And is it fair to the ne chassan and kallah? I know of a couple who came home from their wedding when it was getting light outside already.
The badchan often says, “well, the bal simcha told me not to make any jokes, so…” and then proceeds to make jokes. After all thay want to feel that their client is getting his money’s worth. All this adds on to the already late hour. And what about the grandparents? Doon’t forget that they were busy all day getting ready, traveling, pictures, etc. (I once mentioned this opinion to a very chassidish elderly woman, who was so excited with what i was saying, that i realized for the first time how hard it must be for them. But who thinks about them?)
My theory is that in the olden days the badchan would entertain the guests during the meal itself (like they do in Europe with speeches), but now, with the weddings being the huge social events they have come to be, speeches are impossible. So they have the badchan at the end instead when everyone’s falling asleep.
I hear that in Meah Shearim , and in Gur (i may be wrong) the MT is ten minutes long and no more.
What i’m suggesting here is that when it comes to MT, as in the rest of the wedding, the bal simcha has to think of his guests, and not feel like since its his simcha he can do what he wants. Keep it very short, half hour at most and then send everyone home.
(And don’t tell me people have the option to leave, because often they just can’t because of family dynamics!)
Cherrybim, I thought you were saying in your other post that we should learn from how they dressed, very proper) that we should too. Now youre saying the issue is style?
Well the yeshivish style is black and white now, whats the problem?
also, about the tzitzis out, i read in the biography of reb Elya lopian that it was he who initiated the wearing of the tzitzis out, like they do in yeshivas. so it is a fairly new “style”.
Will Hill:
I do not intend to spill the beans on Berlin. If he wants to stay anonymous, that is his perogative. In fact I regret mentioning that i know him, and i hope he is not angry at me for it. (i mentioned somewhere else to mosherose that i think it unethical to expose the name of any poster if he wishes to remain anonymous)
I answered on the mitzva tanz thread.
Rabbi of Berlin: I dont know if you are upset with me that I quoted you saying something in person, when this is a public blog. If You are, I am really sorry. in any case, i must ask you for mechila. I was not fair. I had assumed that it was a term you used alot, together with elitist, (because it sounded like that to me) and i did not want to go searching for an actual quote where you wrote it. But obviously it is not, since as you say it gives you heart palpitations that you said it, and you were able to zero in on the conversation (you think). Please be moichel me. If you want me to call you, i will.
Rabbi, as you said I did enough long posting for one day, so i will keep this one short. I liked your post, the way you broke it up, though I would not arive at same conclusions. I have no time to debate you ,but dont think that your question is the central or only issue. It is but one small practical question.
Your assumptions about “zionists at heart” is plain funny. They are doing the best they can under the circumstance. since the state is a fact, we will try to gain the most out of it. doesnt mean they believe there should be a state, or agree with the way the state runs.
The fact is that many people were against it, prewar. but once the war happened, many jews were so broken, it was almost like now lets just put our convictions aside, and go home. may we all be zoche to go Home bekarov together with moshiach tzidkeinu.
sorry, i meant to write, rabbonim are very respectful of the medical/ scientific information of the secular world.
example, a rav will rely on doctor whether one should fast, be induced, etc.
lgbg: Just curious, but also just teasing. Don’t worry about it.
Less chumras. Thank you. What i expressed here is alot of my general hashkafos in life that ive come to believe over the years rolled into a few paragraphs.:)
To bowzer. The brisker Roshei yeshiva (including R Avrom Yeshua) gave/gives shmuessen that included anti-zionistic remarks
Jent, please write more clearly. You obviously have inteligent things to say, but people cant understand half of what your saying! spelling, half sentences and references all garbled. What’s the point?
I see someone else said they will take yom aleph. please clarify is that of the month or day? (also, there are two bigs here. I am Think BIG. Someone else is “the big one”.)
So ill stick with yom aleph of the month.
ok, ok all you guys. I was merely trying to explain to nameless what some people find wrong with it. There is no reason to take sides because each family will do as is their minhag. Each minhag has its source, including mitzva tanz. It’s not our place to decide which minhag is better.
Joseph, aderaba! The same people who have a problem with holding hands after chuppah have a problem with mitzva tanz for same reason. The fact that Chaim Berlin holds hands doesn’t take away from the fact that many other litvish yeshivas dont . (Also, I may add that Chaim Berlin has been called by some a “chassidish-litvish” yeshiva. hope i dont get into trouble for that. i just mean that they have other similarities to chassidish minhagim too, from what I hear.)
Rabbi of Berlin, it is true that in most places it is done properly and shalom al yisroel. You ask what is wrong? that was the original question, and this was the answer: Chiba berabim, by holding hands in public is assur. if you (and many others)say that in the case of mitzva tanz it is permitted, fine. Just not everyone agrees. And that is the RATIONAL behind it. Also, YOU feel the kedusha. Not everybody else does, nor do many really undertand what holy things are really supposed to happen.. And the reason they hold hands coming off the chupa is so there should be no hefsek between the chupa and yichud room, not to familiarize themselves with each other. They can do that in the yichud room.
By the way, nameless, it is interesting that even those that hold it is fine to hold hands after the chupa (for reason above) and at mitzva tanz, some hold that there is no excuse to hold hands coming in to the dancing.
Another point I may add is that I believe that many chassanim and kallos are young and they don’t really even know what their supposed to do. They do whatever they saw at their friends wedding. I once saw wedding pictures of a (litvish-sort of) couple hoding hands after chupa. I expressed mild surprised and they said that they simply had no idea what to they were supposed to do, and afterwards they got many questions about it.
Nameless and bowzer: you say that in many litvish places thay hold hands after chuppa. Well that all depends how you define litvish. I dont want to get too narrow over here (I think someone else started a blog on this very question), but in my experience, these terms, litvish, chassidish, heimish, modern etc. means something else to each person.it is all relative. So while you, nameless, will say you saw plenty “litvish” people holding hands after chupa, others will say they are not litvish at all. So many people i know grew up “heimish”, went to “litvish” yeshivos, and moved to lakewood. To their families they are “kalte litvaks”. To their neighbors they are “chassidish.” i’m sure you can all relate to this concept.
So what were arguing here is not what do litvish vs. chassidish people do, nor was the intention to pass judgement on what is right or wrong, but rather the question is WHY do those who hold it is wrong to have a mitzva tanz- hold the way they do. And that is the question I attempted to answer.
Sorry Rabbi of Berlin, I don’t live in Lakewood. perhaps you are remembering a different conversation. Or you think i’m someone else because there were several people in the room when the conversation took place. But yes, a kleina velt. your “Rabbi of Berlin ” gives you away though.
nameless, Im so sorry you took offense. my line about the wild goose chase was said toungue in cheek and i did not mean anything personal by it at all. And you’re right that those that decided to proclaim that the story was false went off target. Perhaps we should all be more careful that when we quote someone or something we should be able to give clear verification. I myself have been guilty of quoting things without remembering the source exactly.
Also, i cannot give you my email address bec. believe it or not, I dont own a computer. i am on vacation now where I have lots of time and access and will be leaving the scene shortly.
So, if you can verify the story for everyone else good. if not, forget it.
Cantoreq:
answer, at NO point. when it comes to the ruchnius of things, we dont need to go to secular places. When it comes to gashmius (medical etc.), for the most part, the Rabbanim are very respectful of that information.
see cherrybim, he answers your questiion about Rav Shach smoking.
If you want a broad-minded and incisive overview on the zionist vs. anti zionist issue, Rabbi Berel Wein has a brilliant series of tapes called “Schisms and Controversies in Jewish history” (or something like that). the last tape in the series deals with our topic. Also, one of the tapes deals with chassidim and misnagdim.
oh, so thats it. i was goint to ask you jent and all the others, if you spend so much time here, when do you have time to learn?
i’ll take 1-10. Thank you
Thank you noitall. I am right bec I speak from experience, unfortunately.
Poshut,
Hakattan’s post was more like a masterpiece, with such obvious truth, that i urge you to read it again with an open heart and mind
A rebutal to your rebuttal, (cuz you seem to be a sincere guy, though you were nebach force fed false information over the years.)
1. You state that by the medina not supporting yechivos it is like you not giving a meshulach. False comparison, because the “government” is not supposed to be biased. You have no onligation to any particular yeshiva. But If the US govt would privide money to all private schools except for yeshivas you would see that they are being unfair? The govt. is sinking alot of money into other “more worthy” secular pursuits, without giving the fair share to the yeshivos. In that way they are subtly trying to shutter them up. It has gotten worse in recent years as they cut more and more of their funding. Is it any wonder that you see pehaps ten times more meshulachim from EY in the last decade than you ever have?
2. Regarding yahadus: Just one point. It has recently been reported that the majority (dont remember exact percentage) of secular israeli youth does not recognise the name “Moshe Rabbeinu”. Lehavdil, which american child does not know George Washington? Is that not a churban?! To deny these kids our own history??? The fact that many fast on Yom Kippur is one of the last few vestiges of “culture” that has stayed with them. May it be the mitzvah that will ultimately bring them back.
3. I hear your point about it having been a waste to send money to the nazis. Its hard to debate a point in history when you dont really know for sure what would have been. There definitly were cases of bribes to the nazis that worked. But the question is, at what cost the risk?? Let me put it to you this way: Imagine chas vesholam a child of yours was kidnapped for a ransom. The kidnappers demand one million dollars. Would you take the risk and send it to them? After all, they have no chezkas kashrus at all, and might just take the money and c”v! “elimiante the evidence.” Of course you would take any chance, whatever the cost to save your child and not save the money!!! We are talking about yiddish lives over here that weren’t worth 100 bucks to these people. Additionally, there is ample evidence of them not only not trying their best but even aiding and collaberating with th nazis y”s. That makes them partners in the murder machine which was Germany.
You say the zionists had no control over the killings?? I am not a history buff, but I have heard of stories where they would send back boatloads of jews as they reached the port of Palestine, knowing full well that it would lead them to their doom.
But you know, though the Zionists were definitely guilty of shedding innocent Jewish blood in the name of “zionism”, the main charge we have against them is their trying to destroy yiddishkeit, the way it has been practiced over the ages. As is well known, to destroy our guf is not as bad as to destroy our neshamas. There are countless examples in the Torah for that. And therefor, even one who SUPPORTS zionism with money is guilty of the evils they perpetrate. (see midrash says, footnote in parshas Pinchas about this, where he makes this point regarding why we treat the midianim much harsher than the mitzrim)
4. i do feel it is a tremendous matanah to be able to live and visit eretz yisroel. But Do you think if it would have stayed in british hands we would not have been able to? Modern planes and such have given us this availability. Not the medina
5. No One denies that a non-frum has a pintele yid. The problem is that the zionists try to extinguish it while the chareidim try to fan it into a glowing flame.
6. I can not comment on what Rav Teichtal says, but the fact that you say that since the land has not vomited the sinners it shows that they sre not sinners is so off! Are you trying to say there are no sinners?
It’s amazing that this blog was supposed to be about how thankful we are to America, and now we are once again debating Zionism. Nice try anway, Aileen.
Be that as it may, here are my two cents worth.
Firstly, Rabbi of Berlin, you are slipping again with your mocking of Mr. Schab and unjustly accusing him of smoking …Just reminding you of your sincere commitment not to do that anymore. Personally, I thought Schwab made good solid points. Sorry you don’t agree. No reason to hurl false accusations though.
Joseph, Will Hill and Bogen ,(and the others that posted here explaining the chareidi position) I agree with all your points. The bottom line is that we follow our gedolim in theirattitudes and perpectives, in fact they shape our thinking, so nothing Poshut or Berlin will say can make the slightest difference, but to shake our heads sadly at them.
To Rabbi of Berlin. Why discuss the gerrer and vizhnitzer rebbe when you have a much better raya. The greates zionist of all time was none other than MOSHE RABBEINU. No one loved and desired eretz Yisroel as much as he. Thos tzaddikim and Rebbes you mentioned are the same type of “tzioni” as Moshe rabbeinu. The thing is that the prevalent understanding of the term “zionist” refers to people who, though Jewish, sought to conquer the land for protection and desire to have autonomy. NoT to fulfill the mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel, because if they did, they would recognise that one doesnt choose one mitzvah and discard 612. The zionists of the time when the state was in its infancy did all that they could in their power to throw away Torah and yiddishkeit, and be “modern”. They have unfortunately succeeded in pulling away untold numbers of yiddishe neshomos from yiddishkeit. This is all documented and esily verifiable. This is part of the reason why the gedolim were in oposition, besides for the crux of the issue which was may we, al pi halacha, “force” the geulah to come by taking over eretz yisroel. The zionists of today continue in that path, but I think with much less idealism because hakol modim that “zionism” is a dying movement, in its death throes. Just look at all the children of those ardent zionists. They are in America, in Brazil, Europe, all over but in EY. Zionism went the way of every other false “ism” conceived by man
I agree ith mdlevines earlier post that we need our gedolim to guide us on what is the correct approach in kanaus. jent, it wasn’t begeder morah halacha…as we see pinchas was not punished for anything, only praised and rewarded. He went to check with moshe because he knew he learned the halacha from him, so he wondered why Moshe himself was not carrying it out. Anyways, what are you trying to say, that its not true that he asked Moshe? Rashi brings it down, as im sure you know, so what is your point?
your second point is well taken, but some will argue that embarrasing and degrading others should also be asked of a Rav since when someone shames another its as if he killed him…
Now are you happy, I agree with Bentzy that you should be ignored but because I pity your family, I will just say this: I am sure (i hope at least) that you were just trying to be funny with your #2. But even so, you need help. serious help. even joking about such matters shows you have serious issues. There are people out there who could help you. get help fast
note: she did not try to kiss the rebbe.
I was waiting for someone else to say this, but no one else is so i will. To all husbands and yeshiva bochurim: Putting your sefarim away should apply to your home too. If you learn on the dining room table and leave all your heavy sefarim around it can greatly inconvenience your family members. (Of course if you have your own private study, pile them on to your hearts content.)
Mazal tov Lgbg! may you be zoche to build a bayis neeman b’yisroel.
Just one question: Does your fiance know your screen name??
Poshuteh Yid:
I would like to comment on an earlier post you wrote.
You write that chareidim tack on extra layers of culture. I would like to suggest that much of the time, if not always, it is rooted in halacha, or a desire to make gedarim on the halacha. The “culture” does not come from nowhere.
To take having a pet as an example, the reason why in general chareidim don’t have pets is because there are halachic considerations with touching pets on shabbos. as far as I know it is muktza. But I see families who own dogs and cats who disregard that. Plus, other poskim say there may be problems with tzaar baalei chaim. Also putting a bird in a cage is tzod. So, while I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with owning a pet, I’m explaining that the prevalent culture arose over the years because of halachic considerations attached to it. (I have a friend whose daughter was begging to own a dog. The parents asked their Rav and he stronly discouraged owning a dog because a dog is brought as an example of the lowest animal in the gemara. They got another cage pet instead)( Please dont take me apart for this, for as I said many times, i am not a talmid chochom and I cannot give you sources. I am ony repeating what I heard)
Of course, another obvious reason we dont have pets is because we in general have alot more kids than your average goy who has one and a half children, and the time, expense and bother is unwanted.
But even in the gemara there were halachos paskened based on the culture. One example comes to mind, where there was a halacha not to wear a certain color shoelace because that was the style. So the “culture” became not too wear it. If you would have been there you may have said “kol hamosif garua”.
About that sad story of the bandana, as someone on this blog wrote, you seem to look for and find and then use as proof the most outlandish stories. Tell me, do you really believe these stories are typical??? You will have insensitive people in every group. But insensitivity is not a symptom of our olam more than any other group. If anything–it is the opposite!
Wearing black and white is not a halacha nor does it make the wearer a bigger tzaddik. All it does is IDENTIFY them with the yeshiva world, which on the whole is a world more medakdek in Torah and mitzvos. You can be one who wears black and white and be the biggest rasha, and You can be a bigger tzaddik or Talmid chochom in colored shirts. No one will deny that. But just dont knock those who make it a point to wear the yeshiva uniform without understanding what its about. By someone wearing it, they are saying they want people to associate them with the yeshiva world.
The examples you brought about sports is exclusive to the israeli chareidim. There are many obvious reasons that one can suggest why and how this mentality came about, all in an effort to preserve Torah. Among them, bitul Torah and not to follow the chukas Hagoyim. It is my firm belief, having lived in EY myself, that the American can not fully appreciate the Israeli mentality and vice versa. We should not seek to judge them by our standards. But even Israelis do not encourage exercize in and of itself. Playing sports is not the only way to get exercize.
The bottom line is, and I think you will agree with me on this one, that it is incumbent for people to know the difference between halacha, minhag, chumros and “culture” or “tradition”. Then we will know how to set our priorities. As Rav Yisroel Salanter says, if someone wakes up real early to run to daven and in the process wakes others up, or if he fervently swings his talis right into someones eyes, or if he yells at his wife for not covering the challos, he is trading in a de’oreisa (not to hurt others) for a “frumkeit” or minhag. I myself was once criticized by a chassidish person for not adhering to a certain minhag, which that person didn’t realize was only a chassidish, hungarian minhag, but thought that it was halacha. I know someone who was in shul on Shabbos, and realized that since there was a simcha..things took longer than usual, and they tzibur would miss zman krias shma. So he went downstairs to daven beyechidus in order not to miss the zman. Someone saw him and berated him for missing the minyan. He told me after that the man didnt realize that its an obligation to make the zman, whereas though minyan is very very important, the halachah says “one should try” in regards to minyan…But for the most part, It comes from ignorance, not cruelty.
The point at which we differ is that you insist on dismissing what you perceive as misplaced “frumkeit”, because we have “bein adam lechaveiro” issue to worry about, which is much more important. My perspective is that these so-called frumkeiten are often worthy and important, and one has to know how and when to apply them.
Finally, to bring this back to the subject of tznius, Poshut Yid, I think the reason you have such a hard time believing that “Lakewood Ir Hakodesh ” has a tznius problem is because you dont realize that everyone has different standards. Even in the Satmar kehilla (where tznius is on a much higher standard than in Lakewood), has their ztnius shmuezzen when they see a breach. Just recently they addressed certain issues in a kol koreh. For the litvish lakewooder, those would not apply.
In lakewood, there has recently been a breach and that is what the rabbonim are addressing. If YOU see no problem with their Tznius, that just means you have lower standards. The bottom line is that we came down to this world to better ourselves and perfect ourselves. (And that means in all areas, not just ahavas Yisroel)So, even in YOUR community, if you were a Rav and you saw a downward turn in the area of tznius, your obligation would be to point it out.
You may want to ask yourself why you find it necessary to turn every conversation back to the same point: that we need to increase ahavas yisroel and therefor this particular issue is not important. None of us denies the importance of treating others with respect etc. But that is not the subject here.
noitallmr, you didnt hear what feif un said: The khaliver rebbe was known for taking peasant folksongs and putting soul stirring jewish words to it, “transforming them ” into songs of kedusha. and those people in the know say that they are from the “holy of holies”. (personally not chassidish, but thats what they say)
the most famous of them is “solo kakosh mar” which was recently recorded by album JEP 5. great album, btw.
You are all missing the posters point I think. You need a vacation, go! But be reasonable. The question is more should any Jew spoil themselves in the lap of luxuiry, live ostentatously, etc. Many gedolei mussar would say not. and that is without considering the fact that many can’t put bread on the table. The phrase, “if you’ve got it, flaunt it” as regards to money, is not a Torah concept. There are some gevirim who live comfortably but far below what they can afford, because thay believe in living simply. (But they are not stingy when it comes to tzeddaka) Admittedly this is a very high madreiga and attainable by very few.
was this the point you were trying to make noitallmr?
Another consideration would be the inevitable stress and raising of the bar of the rest of the community. This is an unavoidable fact, as was widely discussed in the chassunah takanos, but which can be applied to vacations as well.
Besides, what are you teaching your kids?
I heard a cute but sad story from a New York speaker (dont remember his name, but well known speaker) That he overheard two teenagers talking about what they did for vacation. the first said he went to the Bahamas, or some other exotic place. The second said, “yeah, we did that a couple of years ago. It’s so boring.” so what did you do?, asks the first. The second answered, “nothing. we just went to Florida.”
JUST.
so there, noitall, three suggestions why one should take pause before taking an expensive vacation.
nameless. you are wrong about only chabad not holding hands after chupah. Where do you come from that you think that??
The entire litvish/yeshivish world does not hold hands. it is chiba berabim. see my earlier post.
rabbiofberlin. You truly have a chassidish soul. But not every mitzva tanz has a rebbe in it. Also, If mitzva tansen are so holy, why is the badchan busy degrading it by making (sometimes off-color)jokes?.
For those who say “close family” ,(lgbg) there is close family on both sides, so automatically there are strangers! So that logic is faulty at best.
I agree with noitallmr. I was recently at a big wedding where it was obvious the families were very far from chassidish (mixed seating and such), just a “shtickel”. They had a mitzva tanz. The kallah was so clueless, she danced along (which is in and of itself wrong as it was in front of men) and then she kissed all the men she danced with, including her new husband’s uncles and grandfathers. Oh, and a great and holy Rebbe came to dance mitzva tanz too there, which was very beautiful.(really!)
(And this is not so rare, i have been to at least one other such scenario)
To be fair, most chassidish and heimish people know how to make a proper mitzva tanz and it is their minhag after all. But there are certainly many issues one can find with it , to answer nameless
Jent: Firstly, thank you for your kind words. Secondly, you tell me not to be impressed with his Torah, its all from the cd. But you also need to know where to apply what you learn, so he seems pretty learned to me(I am not very learned myself). But, besides that, it seems to me that he is more “areingetun” in the sources than the other anti-chareidim out there, so i give him credit for that. As for the treif pot analogy, it is a point well taken.
However the only reason i bothered answering him is because from the way he writes, he does seem to have a more refinement than many others. His usual way is not to attack, but rather to state his views in a bachovidik manner. It seems to me that he practices what he preaches in regards to Ahavas yisroel. So while I feel he is misguided and living in a dangerous dream world, and i don’t necessarily appreciate his posting anti-chareidi thoughts on this chareidi website, i feel he is a mentch and should be treated like one.
also, about the bar ilan cd, are you sure there’s something wrong with it? i know several talmidei Chachamimwho use it as reference. Of course, having all the info in your head is infinitely better, but not everyone has your fantastic recall memory, which really is quite astounding (in my opinion)
Poshut yid: I’m still waiting for your response
TO JENT, thank you for the correction to my story that it as rabbi Grossman. The name slipped my mind at the time, but I chose to repeat that story specifically because he is very famous and it underscores the point so well, better than if I would have just used some “nameless chareidi rabbi”. That way all the “sceptics” of fanciful stories wont have a pesach.
Cherry bim: you are funny. You are deciding what the people in Europe looked like based on the photo! They posed for their once a year yeshiva photo! we also get dressed up when we take photos. doesnt mean we look like that all the time.
I think the points we can all take out of this, in summary :
1. each person should, on his level, try to make davening more meaningful and respectful. For some it may mean remembering to wear their hat, for others, to BRUSH their hat or shoes. For those who dont wear hats, surely there is a way for them to upgrade their tefillah.
2. Not to judge others. Maybe they have a reason for doing what they do.
3. when you are in shul, concentrate on your own tefillah, not on the next guys
4.Familiarize yourself with the relevant halachos of tefilla and dont take it from the guy on the internet. Not even me.
Rabbi of Berlin, to continue my comments on your letter:
Whether Rabbi Kanievski Shli”ta related the story or just commented on the story is really immaterial. If he commented on it, desn’t it imply that he believed it? (again, IF he in fact commented on it,as I have said before, it is an unfortunate fact that people misquote Gedolim and sometimes make up stories about them) But if we asssume he did comment on it, it follows that he believed the story from a reliable source, in which case I believe it too, since I don’t consider myself more saavy than him. But if you don’t hold Rav Kanievski to that esteem, that is your perogative.
The next part in which you explain the nes nistar versus galui is exactly what I wrote in my previous text, so we are on the same page about that. So, in effect, you believe this “fairy tale” COULD have happened because it is after all possible, though very improbable. I couldn’t agree more. The only reason why I tend to give just a bit more credence to it is because it was said over in the name of Rav Kanievski, and it can be verified. In fact in a previous post I challenged Nameless, on behalf of all of us here in the coffee room, to research the story. Now that she sent us on this wild ride, she owes it to us to make up for it by backing up her story with the facts.
You asked me if I believe in all the chassidishe mayselach: I have two answers:
1. Chassidim themselves will tell you that many of their stories are made up/exagerated, etc, or they are not clear who it actually happened to. Since storytelling was a major focus by the early chassidim, its hard to know for sure what is true and what isn’t. So, I enjoy the stories and try to learn from them what I could, but I usually take them with a grain of salt, especially if they sound too fanciful. (I know someone who feels that telling children a chassidish meysah is worse than telling them snow white and the seven dwarfs, because you are teaching them sheker cloaked in emes, whereas with snow white, the children can clearly see it is a fairy tale. But that is just one persons view)
2. As far as I understand, the point of a story is for the lesson it teaches. That’s why the source, details, who it happened to,etc. are really secondary to the point. (Of course, if you have a penchant for only telling over 100% true stories you might want to stay away from stories that are not verifiable.) So if I heard a beautiful story but cannot remember or verify the details, I may repeat it. Though personally, I do like to stick to stories I know to be true.
As far as my emuna stopping at R’ Kanievski, I have often thought of an interesting phenomenon which is that on average, chassidish stories usually involve a “nes”, which you need to believe. Non- chassidic stories about Litvish-style gedolim usually involve a point of midos or emuna that we could learn from. I prefer the latter.
To end, there is a famous story with one of the Brisker Gedolim, which I won’t repeat bec dont know all the details, but the basic point was that he told his talmidim not to be impressed with “mofsim”. Mofsim anyone can do, and he proceeded to do one right then and there. He told them, that is not what should impress you. Serving Hashem, learning Torah is the ikar.
Have a great night.
To Rabbi of Berlin,
I must say that I take my hat off to you for admitting AND apologizing for your negative words on this blog. KOL HAKAVOD TO YOU. That shows a sign of greatness (in my opinion), and it’s something we should ALL learn from. I have a newfound respect for you. I for one am moichel you for having insulted me (my way of life) but I only speak for myself.
To be perfectly honest, though the two quotes I posted were comments made by you, the term “Sonei Yisroel” I did not see on the site, (I did not go back and read all your comments, just those two.) Rather, if you are the person i think you are, and you sure sound like it, it is a term I heard from your own mouth recently, along with “elitist”. If you do not live in mOnsey then I have the wrong person and I apologize for being Choshed biksherim. But that’s where that came from.
Now I would like to comment on the rest of your post:
You claim that emunas chachamim is a new consept , you imply -invented by the litvish people. I am not a talmid chacham, but I can think of one early commentator (pre-Lita) who wrote that when we look to our chachamim and listen to their words it is like someone in a garden maze looking to the guy in the middle for direction. The man in the middle has already completed the maze and from his high vantage point can see where you’re lost and can direct you. (see intro to mesilas yesharim, I may not have repeated it accurately, but its to the best of my recollection. The Ramchal is certainly great enough and enough accepted, I’m sure evn by you. Perhaps other people can bring other proofs.
However, I am surprised at you, Rabbi of Berlin, Chassid at heart: The concept of Emunas Chachamim is very strong by chassidim, perhaps even stronger than by Litvaks. By chassidim the idea of following the Rebbes directive blindly is part and parcel of almost every story.
Second,I agree it was out of line to call you a Koifer (though I suspect she was not the first one), and I agree that insulting someone is just an insult and never okay, but she didnt call you that because you don’t believe this story. Rather it was a general disbelief of many beliefs that form classic Jewish thought that get bandied about on this blog, which you and others have mocked.
By bringing in the split in Satmar and other camps, you display ignorance about the concept of emunas Chachamim. A chacham is a Gadol of Klal Yisroel who guide us in every area in life. When he exhorts us to do Teshuva in a certain area, we trust he is a messenger from Hashem, as cose as we can get to Nevua today, which is not existant today. Also, we can apply kenei l’cha Rav, where we ask Daas Torah from a wise and Knowledgeable Torah Scholar to direct us, and then we follow his advise, even though it sometimes doent make 100% sense to us. Chassidic tales (fairy tales too?)are replete with cases in which the Rebbe said or did something incomprehensible, but the one who trusted gained in the end.
you write, ” And, additonally, pray tell me, do I have to believe in Rav Kaniesky’s every word? In other words, are R’Chaim kanievsky’s words infallible?”
No, you don’t have to. Hopefully, you have your own Tzaddik that you follow. However, those that hold Rav Kanieveski to be the gadol Hador do believe every word he says. Yes, he is fallable, but his “fallacies” would be my mitzvos. As Chazal say, “Yiftach bedoro keShmuel bedoro”
The words of Rav Kook are to the Mizrachim as the words of the Lubavitcher Rebbe are to the Lubavitchers as the words of the Satmar rebbe are to the satmars. No Layman should put down a spiritual leader in front of ones followers, ever. If a Gadol says that the shita of the other “Rebbe” is wrong, I can not fully understand that, but I trust it is Lesheim shamayim. all of the Besh”t’s talmidim who eventually became Rebbes had different tracks in avodas hashem which conflicted with the other.
I agree wholeheartedly that open nissim do not generally happen today. everything is cloaked in teva. But cannot this story be explained by Teva too? It is not SO unusual to find weird quirks of nature. Several years ago I heard on the (secular) radio about a woman somewhere in England I think who had a baby aborted. She felt unwell and the doctors discovered a dead fetus. The fetus was in her womb for 35 years. The lady was over 70 years old. weird. Do I believe it? I dont know. But there are enough weird happeneings in the GUNISS BOOK to prove it.
I will respond to the rest of your post soon cuz i have to go now.
Mosherose, though I don’t agree with the wolf’s comments either, I don’t think it’s right to expose the real name behind the post. We are all (most of us) anonymous, and it just isn’t fair or ethical, and probably violates halachah to do so. Don’t repay a wrong with a wrong of your own. Does anyone agree with me?
Cantoresq:
I don’t know why I’m bothering to rubut your post (certainly not because i think I will succeed in changing your point of view, because i doubt anything anybody here says will be heard by you.) But maybe in case someone else on this public forum will be infected by your words, I will give a my point of view to consider.
You ask why she deserved the fate she did if she never fargined anyone? As Nameless said, We are not G-d and we have no way of knowing his cheshbonos. She may have been a very high soul who came into this world for a specific purpose and this was the way to fulfill it. As to your question of why her body did not decompose for not being jealous if she anyways could not feel jealousy, so why was she rewarded for it?: I think that is an excellent and intelligent question.
Again, as I said on the smoking blog, Yiddishkeit is not averse to questions, as long as they come from a sincere place and not from a knocking one. I don’t pretend to know the answer, and I can’t even say I believe the story without a doubt (Jews by nature are more sceptical than gullible) as unfortunately many stories make their rounds which turn out to be false or misconstrued. (But I still appreciate the message, regardless whether the story was true)
However, I’d like to propose an answer to your question, just for the sake of learning. We have a precedent in the torah for Hashem rewarding someone for something even if they were not in the position to do otherwise.
When Yaakov Avinu met up with his brother Eisav Harasha after many years, it says that all the shevatim bowed down to Eisav. Many years later, The first king of Yisroel was Shaul, who descended from Binyamin. The question is asked: why specifically from Binyamin ?(Yehuda was not going to receive it at first because the Hashem was not happy with how the request for king was made…See Shmuel Perek 10) One of the answers given is that since all the other shevatim bowed down to the rasha Eisav, except for Binyamin. Why not? BECAUSE HE WAS NOT YET BORN. Here we have another case where Hashem rewarded someone for something even though he was not in a position to do otherwise. How can we mortals try to Fathom Hashem’s Mind?
Nameless, this one’s for you:
You originally posted this story in an effort to raise awareness about jealousy. The whole thing got sidetracked because people would not take a message from a bogus (in their estimation) story.
I give you a challenge I hope you’ll be able to acheive. I challenge you to contact the speaker (I’m sure it shouldn’t be too hard) and try to verify the story and its details. Then get back to us with your results. Deal?
That question really is almost pointless, because one or two a week will invariably lead to more. Once you let the yetzer hara for nicotene in, it will only grow. Ask any smoker who will tell you so. (even though most claim they are in “control”.
Also, if a person has another medical condition, such as diabetes, high blood pressure, cholesterol etc. even one once in a while can be very harmful.
all the young guys think they will be healthy forever, not thinking of the future, but then it catches up with them r”l. Don’t even start with one or two a week!
Good Point
I agree with anon, and more so, why do you feel it necessary to focus on the part that you don’t like, rather than on the moral of the story. You remind me of a child who, after you tell them an inspiring story with an inspiring message, asks a dumb question on a minor detail of the story. Or they ask, is it true? You missed the point!
Except you are not a child- and missing the point, or trying to shift focus away from it is pretty sad.
To jent:
For once, I will take exception to what you wrote:
“..we think its fair to say that its more oigehalten the mitzvah tantz then the minhuk of bringing kalleh with chasen in middle”
I say this with utmost respect to you, but Why is the minhag which was practiced by the Litvishe communities in Lita less oisgehalten than the chassidish minhag??? As I see it, a minhag is not to be thrown away so easily. Many might not know this but in Lita (I know Telz for sure), they had the minhag of bringing the kallah in and having the bochurim and men dance before her. In any case, what was the point in even comparing the two minhagim?? Each one can stand alone on its own merits!
Nowadays, the whole concept of keeping men away from women in the Torah world has been increased, we are much more concerned with the mixing of the two than they were a few generations ago. Also, some may claim that the bachur of today is not on the madreiga of the bachur of yesteryear. So that is probably the reason why some Roshei Yeshiva of today are against the practice of having the Kallah come into the men. (I know of one very Choshuv Rosh Yeshiva who insists upon it by his children to uphold the minhag)
Also, I’m rereading your post, I don’t see how you even attempted to explain to nameless what the “problem” may be.
To answer your question , Nameless, From what i have heard, it’s because the CHosson and Kallah dance together holding hands,and one may not show “chiba berabim”. For this reason, most Litvish/yeshiva people do not hold hands coming off from the chupa, or coming in to dancing either. Another svara might be that since there are times when this would not be possible (chupas nidda) it may be worthwhile to abolish the custom for everyone so as not to shame the chosson and kallah or make it obvious.. (we have other cases where we have abolished a minhag so as not to embarrass people , such as reading from the Torah.)
Those that do do these things obviously have a reason to say why holding hands in public, which is normally inapproprate (assur) is fine then. About holding hands between the chuppa and yichud room, I have heard it is because there shouldn’t be a hefsek to both parts of the kiddushin.
Thank you will Hill, and same to you.
jent1150
I (mir) for one, really enjoy your comments and “chap hano’ah” how you answer those that need to be answered. But often, I cannot follow what you’re saying because of unfinished sentenses. It would be helpful if you take an extra minute or two to review your post to see if it is legible. we would all gain from your words more.
Thank you
levtov,
“Nothing posted on a website ever changed a person & sorry i am not trying to insult YWN.
but unforturnate that is the truth.”
speak for yourself. I, for one, have learned quite a bit and have taken to heart some of what i have learned. For example, a while ago, a newly married person spoke about being mesameach a chassan and kalla by a simchah. His letter was well expressed and the point he made was one i never thought of, but hope to implement in the future.
Well said, Mattisyahu
May I add, that just because our generation has strayed far from the ideal, ie. becoming the norm that all our women are out of the house all the time, should not take away the fact that we should still learn about and strive for the ideal to whatever degree we could.
to Rabbiof berlin:
again, you seem to have a short memory recall. you write:
to nameless, I have been posting for a while on this website and I have never called anyone anything. I have more respect for people.
see my comment on “why yidden are best” where i quote you degrading a whole sector of the Jewish world. Perhaps you should take a more honest look at yourself.
Secondly, as you responded to Nameless, “All he said was that her non-decomposed body was due to the fact that she had no jealousy. The fact that the body did not decompose is either the truth or not. As they say ” neisei sefer venechze”. If there are witnesses that the body did not decompose, then so be it. All that Rav Kanievsky said was that this was due to the fact that she had no jealousy.”
So now you’re trying to say that Rav Kanievski, shlita, gadol Hador made a conclusion about the REASON why the body did not compose but did not necessarily believe the story happened? Excuse me, but did i miss something over here???
also, care to explain this line which i also just dont get? (excuse my feeble mind): “As far as miracles for you or anyone else, it is absolutely a fact that real miracles are not made to measure by Hakodesh Boruch Huh.”
As to your last comment about yeshuos from rebbes do you mean to say that you do not believe in any story that seems “miraculous” unless there was a rebbe or Tzaddik involved in it? For exemple, if someone you know was saved from a terrible accident, and the doctors said they can’t believe anyone survived- it must be miraculous—you wouldn’t believe that it was a miracle, just because a rebbe didnt forsee it? Isn’t your definition a bit narrow?
rabbi of berlin:
You write: Maybe. But I sure would not say anything negative about any jew.
Really? are you the one who calls litvish people
“elitists” and the the biggest “sonei yisroel”?
Do you recognise the post below:
“found the editorials nauseating. It is an elitist, arrogant approach to yiddishkeit, which has become the trademark of the litvishe Jewish world. Smug, feeding upon the medinah they so hate, dismissing anyone who does not agree with them. i wonder what Rabbi Lipschutz would have written in 1945…”
–or the next one?
“Unfortunately, the litvishe oilam has become so extreme and so narrow-minded “
(Or did you by any chance mean its only not okay to say anything negative about anti-Chareidim?)
“Ultimately, we are all responsible for our Jeish brothers and sisters.” That is one thing we agree on.
as to your last piece, I said, ” they did not study the torah and extrapolate its wisdom to arrive at their conclusions.” It’s a foregone conclusion that any real wisdom which is true stems from the torah. The reason why there is an abundance of Jewish Nobel Prizes in my opinion is because the Jews have passed down from the ages many special qualities, such as incisive thinking, questioning, perseverance (hasmadah), etc, honed through generations of learning gemara.
BTW (don’t answer if you dont want to) Are you the rabbi of berlin who lives in monsey?
Give me a break:
As I wrote in my post, I think it’s the RamBam who added the last level, “Yisroel”.(but I’m not sure) I would be more careful before I call the Rambam an “egotistical Jew”, especially since all you’re doing is displaying your ignorance. If you have never heard of a concept, it doesn’t mean it was “made up.”
This is a concept i learned in school several times, but since i’m out of school for a while, I don’t remember the source. Maybe some of the Talmidei chachamim on this blog can help me out here and take “Mr. break” out of his ignorance. I will also, bez”h try to research it.