Think BIG

There can possibly be a simple approach here. In many cases, it is well known if the family making the simcha is struggling or obviously wealthy, and we can act accordingly. (NOT THAT WE EVER REALLY KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY SOMEONE HAS IN THE BANK FOR REAL—sometimes those that appear wealthy are actually in debt, nevertheless,)For example, if the family does not spare any expense to make the wedding as lavish as possible, eg,fancy invitations, live flowers, eight-piece band, custom made gowns for everyone and two photography crews, etc), then they can consider bringing boys/girls in to be part of the wedding expenses. (often, these weddings are held in a luxury hotel with not-so-convenient access). For these families, the extra expense this will entail is so minor, as to almost be inconsequetial. To these weddings, for the ba’al simcha to arrange transportation would be mentchlich and generous, being that these expenses do add up for the bochurim.

On the other hand, for those families that are obviously struggling (and its no secret when they are!) the young friends should have the sensitivity not to ask for transportation accomadations. They need to remember that it is the parents paying for the wedding, and as much as the chosson/kallah would love to bring the friends in, it may not be up to them. a sense of entitlement would be entirely innapropriate here. At the same time, they should make the effort to come whenever possible to wholeheartedly share in the simcha, despite it costing them money.

Then there’s the case where the bochur or girl guest comes from a well-to-do family, and does not NEED to accept the money offered by the family. Someone, who comes from a very well to do family once told me that he flew in several friends from yeshiva for his wedding. However, what he resented was when a certain bachur who could very well have afforded to come on his own, asked to be reimbursed. The chassan was too aidel to argue, but he felt the friend was just taking advantage of his generosity, and that it was not mentchlich.

On the other hand, when a family is not offering to bring in guests, and the boys arrange their own rides, it is sometimes in place for the chassan/family to offer reimbursement to a bachur (or more–depending on their means and the need) who really cannot afford it but should really be at the wedding, being that he is a close friend or whatever. his may be the families choice, but should not signal to the others that they should expect the same.

My point here (in case its not obvious) is that there does not need to be a one-size-fits -all solution. What works for some families, may not work for all. People can try to use their judgement and sensitivity to assess the situation properly. Once the different aspects and problems are known, each bochur and family can apply their own common sense.

As an aside, to all you bochurim: If the chassan does not offer, DO NOT ASK or expect to be reimbursed. Just do the best you can. It can be extremely uncomfortable for the chassan when he knows his parents will not pay for it, but his friends are expecting it.

Thank you Joseph. What can I say? i am flattered, though I would not say that my positions are “absolutely correct.” Much of what I write is my own personal perspective/opinion. But thanks just the same.

You say such commodities are rare…I am not familiar being that this is the first “forum such as this” that I have ever participated, but I did find that there are several intelligent posters on this site, that gave me much food for thought.

Yes, I went through the “typical Bais Yaakov system”, more or less. However, the home I was raised in is quite different (in subtle ways–nothing overt) than the one I have now in terms of emphasis and hashkafas hachaim. So, in a sense, I was exposed to different ways of thinking. Additionally, I have always had a thirst to read and understand others points of views.

You speak about English language skills. I have observed that you write in a manner not typical of a yeshiva graduate, in both vocabulary and scope. Can you tell us a bit about yourself? (age, occupation, background etc.)

I think everyone on this blog has made good and valid points. (The only thing I think is unnecessary is learning to cook in school. Nowadays, anybody who can read should be able to cook. There is a plethora of kosher cookbooks that give step-by -step instructions. Many of my friends had no idea how to cook even scrambled eggs, and today they are gourmet cooks. Personally, I never cooked as a youngster- preffering to keep my nose in the books!–and today I host guests every Shabbos.)

I would like to comment on the discussion between gavra and illnio7 on being happy with a “B” vs. trying your best. I have a unique perspective because I actually teach in a Bais Yaakov, and I can tell you that there is no simple answer.

Are the girls driving themselves too hard or not caring enough? Is the pressure coming from them or the teachers or the parents? Should so much emphasis be put on grades or should we focus more on their self-esteem? Should we teach them that they must work hard, because school work is life’s work, or should we let them enjoy their youth and bond more with their families? These are questions that every teacher, and every school-age parent grapples with at times.

I have found that it is different in every circumstance. Some students drive themselves crazy and study so much until they develope ulcers, while others sail through school barely putting in effort, not caring if they pass or fail. Sometimes the workload is physically overwhelming, especially if you consider the fact that these girls have other family, social and school-related obligations. I have had parents who complained that their daughters never have homework and have too much time on their hands as well. I have students that waste half the night on the computer but complain the next day that they didn’t have time to study. (work ethics?) I have met parents that encourage their children to focus on limudei chol only, and couldn’t care a whit about the kodesh subjects. (“they dont really matter as much as the chol, because she has to get into a good college!”) Tests and quizes every week, sometimes more than 5 a week can drive some students to distraction, while others handle it with aplomb.

No, I don’t think the students of Sara Schenirir had it this tough. Somehow, I envision a school where learning was a joy, studying was lishma, the friendships were real, the distractions were fewer and the gains were enormous.

I recently read about a forum among noted mechanchos and principals of BY schools in one of the chareidi publications. The general consensus was that they realize that the BY system should focus on the changing needs of this generation of young women. They talked about teaching them to view Yiddishkeit with pride , and learning should be a joy. There should be less stress (how??) and more emphasis on middos.

So, gavra, while we want to teach that perfectionism is wrong, some need to hear the message that they need to try to do the best they can. Others need to be told that for them, trying the best they can is too much.

Illnio, I agree that the subjects that are hard should not be abandoned, but it is my opinion that some subjects are beyond that of many students. (If it is difficult for you to be a rocket scientist, should you keep trying? It was not made for everyone!) and unfortunately for some , frustration is their constant companion throught their school years. Is that the only thing we want them to take out of those years?

I agree with you 100% that when you relearn the material in college, it is easier because you once learned it. But again, at what price? We need to take the whole picture into account and there is not one answer to every situation.

Wolf: I agree with your points about practical learning. Unfortunately, there is not enough time in the day to learn everything, and being that the girls carry a double workload, it makes things that much more difficult.

I am just attempting to give you all a bigger picture of what it’s like for the students today, and what the teachers and principals have to contend with. Unfortunately, I have no answers, just lots of questions.

illnio7:

“I haven’t had the chance to peruse the conversation yet, but on its face, I do not see why a legitimate discussion concerning the divorce rate is inappropriate for a 13 year-old.”

It is because you have not had a chance to peruse the conversation that you see no problem with it. That particular converation was not just about divorce and its effects, but it veered into details completely inappropriate for kids, and in my opinion even for adults. Just because we are adults, it doesn’t justify our discussing lewd topics no matter how it is “packaged”. I am glad that YW finally closed that discussion down. Besides for the fact that that topic (not divorce, but the emphasis on the reasons for the divorce) is not really prevalent in our society to the extent that it needed to be discussed here. (Unfortunately, it happens once in a great while–we are not immune, but to discuss it here among all these other topics is to suggest that it is a common situation, which it most definitely is not in the frum, yeshiva/chassidsh world.)

While I’m on that note, I find that adults often allow themselves to watch or read material that they would agree is not appropriate for kids, but is okay for them. What I want to say is, (and I feel very strongly about this) that we adults are not immune to timtum halev, and if it is material of the kind that is “unkosher” (and I’m not referring to adult-related material which deals with mature topics in a wholesome way) we should not be exposing ourselves to them either. I know people who will censor the books and movies they allow their child to be exposed to but have no problem reading or watching very inapropriate material. This is self-dillusion and hypocracy of the highest order, and in my opinion, it bears thinking about.

Of course, this topic was about kids having internet access, and I want to mention one more point that was not raised. Besides for the devastating effects it can have on kids who see inapropriate images and read inapropriate things, internet surfing is quite addictive (as most of us here can attest ). Children who need to focus on their learning are inhibited, their social life is curtailed and of course, they are less active, adding to the risk of childhood obesity.

lesschumras: Thanks for bringin a possuk to support my “possition”. My position is and has always been that one must have a guidance of a Rav in all of these things. Many things are “assur” except when they are not, as decided by the Rabbinic leaders who safegaurd the Torah.

“Torah lo bashamayim He”, and therefor we down here on earth must follow our gedolim and not rely on ourselves.

The connection is as follows: One of the arguments made as to the how we prove that Zionism is sheker, is by showing that it didn’t last.* Many “isms” have been made popular in their time, then slowly faded away (Communism, socialism to name a few)

Zionism also, is in its dying stages as we see the real Zionists are all around your age, rabbi, and have not succeeded in passing it on to the next generation. Many, many of the Zionists at the forefont of the action at the time have children or grandchildren now living in chutz la’Aretz. So that’s why I find it amusing, for lack of better word, to find on this website, that the two most ardent supporters of Zionism on this site have Chareidi children. Is the connection clear now?

Also, may I add, when you were your children’s ages the State was still fairly new and it was hard to see that the zionist ideal would eventually decline. You and I know that your yeshivishe sons and son-in-law are NOT going to “see the Emes”, (as you put it) and embrace the Zionist ideology.

When we talk about Zionists, we do NOT refer to everyone who lives in Eretz Yisroel! (i don’t know anyone who uses such a definition!) I myself have lived there several years and would never consider myself a Zionist. A “Zionist” in todays world refers to a person who believes that the State of Israel is a valid institution as far as thier beliefs go (as you do). In other words, that we Jews had the right and obligation to take Eretz Yisroel by force, and for some, that that mitzva is the raison d’etre. That is a Zionist. I believe it is not valid, you believe it is.

Just answer this, does your sone who lives in Eretz Yisroel consider himself a Zionist??

*You alone have made this argument in regards to chassidim still being around and flourishing.

cherrybim, thank you for clarifying that. You see, when you said the way it used to be, you make it sound like you are referring to the Alte heim, the way the mesora was for generations. What went on in new York in the 60s and 70s is NO RAYA! the rabbonim had enough to contend with, having just come from Europe. There were so many areas in yiddishkeit that were lacking, that not having a mechitza was a “halbe tzara”. Read All for the Boss to see what challenges they had to fight at the turn of the century.

What I would like to know is what was it like i Europe? Mechitza at weddings or no?

I am originally from the greater new york area, though I don’t live there anymore. May i ask why it interests you? Where are you from.

(Actually, i’ve read that in the area of language, woman are stronger than men in the general population, not just in the Jewish one. Men are stronger in math and the sciences)

chaimsmom you dont know what you’re saying. Houses are sold in many different conditions, some better than others. My rented house, (that I live in), is also for sale, and prospective buyers come all the time. I do not remove any object that might be a “turn-off” as you say.

Additionally, the original story explained that the picture was on a high shelf, not easily noticable. But the buyer was looking up for some reason and noticed it.

You might be new here, (I dont know), but we just went through a whole thread where the validity of stories was debated, so lets not go there again! Let’s instead stick to the point.

While we’re on the subject, can someone explain please explain why all the “higher” learning the girls do is neccesary for life??

Triginometry, Chemistry, higher economics…will they need those. the upper math classes (like scientific math) is beyond many average students and it causes tremendous frustration to them. So if you want to argue that they are not taught more practical things, and instead waste time on unnecessary material, lets keep it two sided.

(If you will tell me that it is so eventually they will be able to get a degree, that system also seems to be very flawed. Much of the material is retaught in college, and the rest they forget. The real reason why bais yaakovs teach it is because they have no choice! their girls need to be at least as educated as the public school kid. but the girls end up losing out because they are carrying a double workload.)

Aishes Chayil, YOUR shockingly nasty post is the pathetic one. By your screen name, it appears you are married, so thank Hashem for that and try to be a bit more sympathetic and sensitive to that who have not yet found their spouse, regardless whether you think they are doing it to themselves or not—they are STILL to be pitied!

I, for one, thought he made a very good point. It is a well known fact that people just don’t have time and matchmaking is a thankless, often frustrating job. If people were paid for their time, like a lawyer, etc, there would be many more people in the field. Also, we can train them and have mentors, in case the inexperienced shadchan runs into difficulty.

“When something is bashert it’s gona happen regardless of who the shadchan is,,,,,” That line is so childish, that it makes me wonder where you come from. Have you ever heard of the concept called “hishtadlus”?? If meeting your bashert will happen anyway because its bashert, why bother dating alltogether? Did you meet your husband in the street or did a shadchan take time to set you up? If everything is bashert, why are the rabbonim and askonim getting involved in various different shadchan networks, each having their on original approach?

Back to the oP’s point, we see from what the star-k did in Baltimore, which I understand was largely successful, that people need incentives.

Thank you to Joe shmoe for your sensitivity in raising this subject and for your thinking along the lines of solutions rather than denial.

To those who counter that this is not a novel idea, since there are already “proffesional shadchanim”, consider this: If you compare the ratio of young people out there looking for their shidduchim to the amount of full-time shadchanim, you would find that there is a serious shortage of full-time shadchanim. If you want to buy a house, you contact a real estate broker, who takes your needs seriously and shows you what’s available. So why should you not be able to contact a shadchan who has a full database of availabilities, according to your needs, to set you up? because there sre not enough of such people!

I, myself spend quite a bit of time on a regular basis working on shidduchim, as a side thing. In my experience over the last few years, I feel the parents ARE doing their hishtadlus. The young people for the most part are too. It is the community that has to step in and help out, by creating a more workable situation.

As I see it, the problem of older singles can be adrressed from many angles, and one can try to lay the blame on the singles, their parents, expectations, the shadchan or the Rabbonim. What I think is needed is a WHOLE approach. Let me give you an analogy.

You have a man who is sick. He goes to the doctor and complains that his stomache hurts. The doctor gives him pain killers. He goes back to the doctor because his head hurts. Then his eyes hurt, and then he feels weak. An astute doctor will look at all the symptoms together and be able to diagnose a condition, and treat the condition, which is the root of all the symptoms.

Yes, in shidduchim, sometimes the parents, sometimes the girls and sometimes the boys are a problem. money, yichus, frumkeit level, all play a role in the larger picture.

What I think is needed is EDUCATION. Before beginning the process of dating, most young people are clueless, having garnered their ideas of marriage from sources that have no basis in reality. Even if they have friends in shidduchim, one really has no clue until they actually live with their spouse. Any married person will attest to that.

So how can we expect young people to know what they want? How can we send a young girl or boy out on his first date without having any clue what is expected of him/her? Would we hire any worker without experince? How can we expect parents to know what they’re doing in the confusing world of trying to get information? They are usually only trying to protect their kid! Whenever I give a name over to a parent to research, my heart goes out to them for the task that lies ahead of them. And often after all their checking, it all comes to nothing.

Of course, for the most part, people get married. young people fare okay even without education, and so do the parents. But the amount of agmas nefesh that is created in the current system can probably be alleviated with a community wide attempt at education: For parents, singles AND Shadchanim.

Rabbi, Joseph took the words straight out of my mouth, or maybe said it even better than i could. Thank’s again Joseph.

I have nothing to add to your comments, except the following: I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating. The crux of the issue, as I see it, is not history or even current events. It is the fact that we don’t rely on our small minds whn it comes to summing up how to perceive these things, but rather on our Torah leaders who view them through their holy eyes. Our leaders’ perspective on these weighty issues is quite clear to the hamon am, and they have never come out in public to change them. (Even if you will bring me “proofs of rebbes who participate, the proof is in the pudding, as you say, since none of their constituents ascribe to the “zioninst” philosophy) So as far as we are concerned, at the end of the day, there is nothing left to debate on this subject.

Now since you and I (and the majority of chareidim, I may add) differ on the role our leaders thinking should have on our personal perspectives, there is no way we can ever come to an agreement on the Zionist issue.

Poshut, see above Joseph’s post for an answer to your comment.

I actually agree with canteresq one hundred percent! (I almost cant believe it) actually only until you started talking about Rav Shach. I also heard that story circulated a bit, and I dont know if it is true, but even if it was, I dont teitch up the story the way you did, that he didnt think it was important. There is a far deeper message in there. But maybe I’ll get back to that soon.

For your information Reb joJo, there are books out today, like “carry me in your heart” by Pearl Benisch, (and other sources too) that describe the lessons that Sara Shenirer taught. You would be shocked. What Bais Yaakov teaches today in lomdus does not come close! But your position is a widely held misconception.

Cherrybim, about your Rebbe’s advice to give in to the other side, it is well known that Rav Yaakov Kamenetzki zt”l had this practice. if people asked him whathis minhag was with walking his children down the isle, he always said “my minhag is whatever the mechutanim do”. i heard this directly from my friend who is an einikle of R’ Yaakov, but it is well known.

Joseph: The truth is, i dont really know the origins of the mitzva tanz. i was just speculating, because the way we do things in general has changed over the years. Our chasunas are nothing like what they used to be like in the olden days, which always took place on erev shabbos, for example. About the chassidish havara, its simpe. the havara has to do with what town/country you came from. The “chassidish” havara was the havara of the Hungarian and Polish Jews, which eventually became the hotbed of Chassidus. So now its known as the chassidish havara. The russians and lithuanians spoke differently, and the chassidim didnt really spread so much over there. Do I make sense?

jent, i hear your point, loud and clear, and actually understand everything you wrote.

I wasnt saying that we pasken based on what the sfardi rav said, but I was trying to figure out how it can be that people wear their tzitzis inside and still fulfill ur’isem. I lready got my answer (see above post), but i thought that since this was said over in the name of the sefardi tzaddik, there MUST be a svara that its okay. see the difference?

I hear that its strange being that its the bais yosef who says it. maybe the sfardi chacham in your shul can shed some light. I did not quote him exactly because it was something I read in hamodia more than 7 years ago, so I’m sorry if the loshon doesnt sound Eidel. But the point it expressed stuck in my mind.

In any case, your last point I dont think proves anything, because many frum sefardim took on the levush of the ashkenazim. The black hat, dark kapote…all come from the european style of dress. If you look at the old pictures of sefardi Chachamim, they dont dress that way anymore. (Amnon Yitzchak makes a point of this by dressing in traditional yemenite garb)

lgbg: How can you “see” i don’t live in Lakewood? In your earlier post you said it sounds like i’m really knowledgable about the girls in lakewood.

Rabbi of Berlin:

“Yes, I have problems with the multitude of kollelim and the fact that most (not all) chareidim do not become part of the army and other facets of Jewish life. “

Why, pray tell, do you have problems with the multitudes of kollelim?

And how can you have problems with chareidim not being part of the army if you can’t even understand their position?? Believe me, Rabbiof Berlin, if this was Milchamas Hashem they were fighting, the Chareidim would be in the front lines!!

Your second paragraph showed that you unfortunately misunderstood my point again. (Am I being unclear or is is you??? Can someone please help me figure this out?)

The talmidim of the Besh’t and the Gr”a came to settle in EY to fulfill the mitzva of yishuv EY, and not because of the difficult hardships of Europe. Beleive me, the conditions in EY were far more difficult, and it was with such great mesirus nefesh that they came! In fact, the conditions were so unbearable that many ended up moving back within a short time! But that has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever, so i’m not sure why you brought it up.

My point simply was that once (secular)Zionism reared its ugly head, the Arabs began to terrorize the people in EY. Before that, the Moslems/Arabs were not so fanatical about wiping us out. In fact, for centuries the yidden got along relatively fine with them . (relative to how their cousins under christian rule were faring.)

SO, to ask NOW the question you ask, would we be better off if it switched to arab rule, who can even fathom such a scenario? Because the entire equation has changed. We don’t know what history would have looked like had the zionists not done what they did, thus causing the arabs to retaliate the way they do…Now do you understand what i’m saying?

Also, you write, “unless you are like satmar that believes the medina is Treife”…Guys, please correct me if I’m wrong because I’m not the most familiar with this, but to my understanding, ALL chareidi leaders beleive that the medinah is treife! That’s the crux of the whole discussion here, isnt it? The thing with Satmar is that they take it a bit further by actively propagating the idea to its adherents (meaning it is a major focus of their belief system) and in prohibitting their chassidim from benefitting in any way from the zionists, as in visiting the kosel, Kever Rochel, etc. Reb Yoel zt”l was on the forfront of the whole anti-zionist movement.

The rest of us, while believing that what the Zionists did/do was against Torah, and that the founding of the State of Israel was against halacha (thereby making it treif) don’t have a problem benefitting from what is ours, despite the fact that the zionist war helped us get it.

Thats how I understand it, but I stand to be corrected.

Joseph: I hear your point. Thanks for the correction.

Rabbi of berlin, i answered your post yesterday, i dont know why it wasnt posted. But in short, to answer your hefsek question, ask a chossid. I understood it to mean that its like the chassan “grabs” the kallah to be “koineh” her and runs to the yichud room. that way, no hefsek between chuppah and yichud, the two integral parts of the kiddushin.

Lgbg, the answer to all your questions can be found in the above blogs. If you still dont understand, i would be happy to answer. In any case, each person shoulld stick to his own families minhag. There is what to rely upon on either side!

yes, the chassidim think the mitzva tanz is more imp. than chupah. Just dont tell that to a misnaged, or he’ll think youre whacked! (by the way, are you having a MT?)

Joseph, about chaim Berlin, my point exactly! they have certain mihagim similar to chassidish, so obviosly the oP was not referring to them when she said litvish Roshei yeshiva.

Joseph, will hill and bowzer: what makes you think that the “mitzva Tanz” that the machzor vitri brings down is the same as the MT of today?? somehow i doubt it. In any case, if it predates chassidim, why do only they observe it?

Joseph, Thank you, I appreciate that.

I definitely enjoyed my visits here, just trying not to think of the immense amount of time I wasted. If I thought anybody took something positive away from all this, it may be partially redeeming. It certainly gave me food for thought. But honestly, I feel in all “yatza sechoro behefsedo”.

I noticed several of the bloggers on this site comment on the guilty concience they have with the time we waste and the fact that this is on the internet. I guess I justified it for myself because I know that this will be left here, and I don’t have this yetzer hara at home. Be it as it may, I hope that some kiddush Hashem can come out of this and that we will all grow from this give and take. (That is the point is it not?) But I would certainly advise those that have misgivings about this to follow the dictates of their concience. As for me, I hope Moshiach will long be here before I take my next vacation and think about logging on. And once that happens, there won’t be any point because there won’t be anything left to argue on, right? TEIKU!

Hatzlacha Rabbah to you too, Joseph, and all of you. (I will still be here a few more days)

Cherrybim, I KNOW what ure’ism means. The point I was trying to make which you didnt understand was that if the tzitzis were worn inside, what would be the point of wearing the tzitzis if ure’ism cannot be fulfilled? I dont know. But there obviously is a point, though perhaps not the most preferred.

Rabbi of Berlin your question is not a fair or valid question for the following reason: Essentially You are asking can it be that we would be better off under Arab rule if it was switched back today. The answer is obviosly no. But that is a very simplistic view.

But as Chuck (yes, chuck) pointed out earlier, for many years the Arabs were benign rulers. Listen first!! Dont shake your head yet!

It is a known fact that in Yemen and other arab ruled countries yidden lived with much more peace with their rulers than did the ashkenazish communities who lived under christian rule. Moslem rule was historically kinder to us than christian rule. You want proof? Just look at how you cant find a single ashkenazi community that survived in one place for more than like 300 years. There were constant expulsions, pogroms,inquisitions, etc. The yidden were never safe. Whereas in Yemen and other places under Arab rule, they stayed in the same place for centuries. (I read that The yemenite community is the oldest jewish community in existence until recently when the majority came to EY. They were in the same place since the first churban!)

My point is that when the Zionists went and created a state, the arab nations BECAME OUR ENEMIES out in the open. So the entire equation is changed. If theoretically speaking, we could turn the clock back to before the state, do you think the Arabs would be our # enemies like they are today? I think not. The entire world history was shaped by the fact that the State was founded. Now the Arab terrorism is the order of the day.

Obviously this point is moot because this is how HaShem willed it and planned it that the Yishmaelim should be the final enemy in this long Galus.

Also, Berlin, would you stop with the smoking illegal stuff business, please? It is as childish as any of the other degrading nonsensical insults on this blog.

To answer your second post today, yes the issue of daas torah is at the core of all of out arguments. To address the two issues you raised:

Which gedolim: If you follow a gadol who is a godol in Torah and Yiras shamayim and respected by other gedolim who hold sdifferently on these issues, good for you. You have on whom to stand. (remember, all true gedolim respect each other, while maintaining their different views)

What extent are we mechuyav: we already discussed this issue at length in another blog (i think the farginning one) if you are really interested in my opinion, and i dont know why you should be, you can read it there.

Joseph, a “shtarke Ger” will want to do the ratzon Hashem. And maybe in his case the ratzon Hashem is to stay civil and friendly with the family, especially if the Rav encourages and advises this. Don’t forget, chillul Hashem is one of the most severe aveiros.

In any case, who ever heard of a ger who is not “shtarke???” If he was not shtark he would not have made it to this point!

I agree with cherrybim on this.

no problem. (maybe we shouldnt be joking around in the nine days anyway) Enjoy your tuna steak.

Cherrybim: i understood your point. Please note that the different yeshivos in Pre-war Europe had different emphasis. Slobadka had that emphasis, Novarodik had a different (some would say almost opposite) emphasis. Be that as it may, I agree that a yeshiva bochur should dress in a self-respecting fashion,ie clothing should fit properly, no stains or wrinkles,etc. for they are representing Torah. As far as styles go, the black and white outfit of the typical yeshiva bochur actually looks very classy (just need a tie to go with it.)Similar to a businessman. They certainly look more bachovodik than your average teenage guy in his ripped jeans and oversized t-shirt. Is that the style you are advocating? (I know your not, just trying to point out that style today means nothing if we are comparing ourselves to the goyish concept of style. In europe, a stylish guy dressed in a nice suit and tie. Not here, not anymore.)

Jent: Yes I meant the fringes out was reportedly initiated by R’ Lopian. I don’t know why it wasn’t “in style” until then, and i can’t answer what the purpose of “ure’isem ” would be then. But he obviously felt that this was a better way to fulfill ure’isem.

As a side note, I remember reading a tribute to one of the great Sefardi leaders/Roshei Yeshiva who passed away in recent years. It said that some of the Sefardi Bochurim began to wear their tzitzis tucked out like the Ashkenazim and he dissuaded them, saying that it was never their minhag over the years, and the Sefardi heritage is rich enough without having to take from the Ashkenazim. So, based on this story, there obviously is a “purpose” to wearing tzitzis even if the fringes cannot be seen,( as they did before R’Lopian).

Jent may I ask you a personla question? Do you say mir/we when you talk too?