thethinker3

First — this continues to be an amazing, intelligent, thoughtful and smart discussion — kol hakavod to YWN for hosting and managing this board — I imagine so helpful to so many people.

I did want to respond to something WOW had written earlier.

I can only go by my own experience — but telling your son that anything goyish is dangerous schmutz is about the worst way to approach this — he knows that’s not true and makes you untrustworthy and then irrelevant.

By now he’s figured out that most goyim arent shickers; the best secular writers and moviemakers convey the challenges and complexities of life (especially what he’s experiencing) with insight and profundity; the canon of Western music, from Bach to Bebop to the Beatles to Broadway, reaches into the human soul in ways nothing else can.

I would suggest that you need to find a way to not paint this in black and white but give him the space to find ways to explore and incorporate the best of mainstream culture into his Judaism and not create a situation where one is set against the other forcing him to make a choice you won’t like. While I know this is not your Hashkafa, it may be the process by which he finds a Judaism that’s comfortable for him rather then breaking with everything.

I hope this is helpful

First — wanted to say what a superb discussion of the OTD issue — so many smart, experienced, sensitive, informed contributors.

My own 2 cents — having done a couple of off the derech rounds myself:

1) One size doesn’t fit all — that’s true in any community, frum, frei, MO, secular etc. The biggest reason that the vast majority of Jews aren’t frum is that in free societies, there is no more compelling right then the one to define who you are and pull from the unprecedented range of options to “build your own” lifestyle that works for you. Its not about rejecting your parents, but the basic human instinct of exploring beyond the world we know.

Once you begin asking questions — “why can’t I even choose my own cloths? Why do I have to wear sticky wool pants when everyone else is in shorts? Why do i have to bike in a skirt? — suddenly you realize you are not the only one asking these questions and there are vast options available as you figure out who you are/want to be.

Today, the frum lifestyle competes in a vast marketplace of compelling, interesting choices — that’s just the way it is, and the frum world has to figure out how to be compelling in that new reality. Coercion and pressure doesn’t work.

2) Lying to our kids that OTD = drugs/crime/failure etc. that anything secular is schmutz is about the most counterproductive approach possible. Its self-evident that the world, beginning with our neighbors down the street, is filled with kind, generous, productive, successful, satisfied people regardless of how frum/not frum they are or whether Jewish/not Jewish. And there are vast repositories of complex, inspiring and challenging culture and creativity beyond traditional Jewish music and seforim. We have to find a way of being more subtle and clever — engaging the best of the broader culture rather then rejecting it all wholesale.

3) To MSseeker and others — if one is challenging Torah truth and Hashem’s existence, then “proofs” not only don’t work, they appear childish and simplistic. Take Nasseh V’Nishma — if you hold the view that many OTD folks take, that the Torah is an authored document written hundreds of years after the events described, then you hold these are words a later writer has put in the mouths of the characters at Sinai to validate the requirement of observance. All you are “proving” to an OTD person is that the Torah authors(s) had the skills of any good narrative fiction writer. The challenge is to find a way to validate and reconcile Torah in the broader context of the vast textual and archeological data we now have on the ancient world.

I hope this discussion keeps going — kudos to the coffee room for providing and hosting such an important and relevant forum.