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I am not a talmid chochom and I do not know whether a sports bar is halachically permissible in every respect or not.
However, I do know people who enjoy watching the games and manage to do so without a “kosher” sports bar. I’d like to propose that they are better off watching the game however they did so til now as opposed to an entire frum community (including impressionable children) becoming desensitized to the following idea – namely that it is a normal, accepted and kosher thing for a man who has a chiyuv talmid Torah to while a way his time socializing with both genders in a bar setting watching a sports game.
Never mind the people who would have never thought of patronizing such a place, but because it’s so accessible they begin to do so, to their OWN dissatisfaction.
My point is not that you should stop because it’s wrong.(although I believe it is, as I mentioned.) My point is: why don’t you get a feel for what it means to stop a pleasurable behavior cold turkey, before calling others who have not risen to the challenge OTD?
Either way, having a hard time with one mitzvah does not make someone off the derech.
With much respect and admiration for your perseverance and belief in G-d despite hardship, different people are different and different events affect them differently. Just because you didn’t go OTD because of certain circumstances, doesn’t mean the same situation might not leave another person shattered enough to seek elsewhere.
I believe every person who goes OTD will be judged according to his capabilities. On a personal note, I also went through a hard time as a teen (okay, a very hard time.) I also happen to find that my greatest satisfaction in life comes from spiritual fulfillment and connection to G-d. It’s something I was born more connected to – I do not take credit for it. Since this was the case, I knew if I made the wrong choices it’ll affect the way I truly want to live my life, and I’d only be punishing myself. That’s not to say I didn’t seriously consider it sometimes. People are complex.
And people are different. There are teens whose need for love is so great that they will go to whatever lengths they feel they need to get it – including going OTD. I will never attempt to judge such a person – AT ALL. But I do wish they knew the truth and would have found love in the right places.
Yes, I also believe curiosity, ta’avah and attraction to the non-Jewish culture is a driving force in certain people’s path OTD – particularly adults who leave the fold. (And yes, they prob felt that way for years.)
As a teen, I read the Chorev, Derech Hashem, parts of Cjovos Halevavos, Mesilas Yesharim, anti-missionary materials, Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan’s books, the Kuzari, R’Moshe Eiseman’s books, Beyond Your Ego and many others. There are answers if you are looking. I also was not afraid to ask some really provocative questions – and believe it or not- I got answers most of the time, and I did not feel shunned. Maybe it was because I had all the correct outer trappings of a model Bais Yaakov girl.
Anyway, I think Klal Yisroel is the most beautiful nation – look how many of us stay strong despite temptation, whatever form it may take! And look how many of us yearn to do the right thing despite the way we actually may conduct our lives.
To whoever took the time to read this: Thank you!
FOR PENP – There are plenty of American seminary girls who will tell you it is not normal to have a facebook page.
Knowing a few “typical” Israeli chareidi girls, I can tell you that there are many girls in America that have similar standards when it comes to technology.
SPARKLY – Let’s put things into perspective. The purpose of life is to become closer to Hashem in all we do, in our own unique way. As long as we are here we need to safeguard our lives so we can continue to grow closer to Him.
Saying that smoking is worse than watching TV, listening to non-Jewish music and going to the movies is absurd. Immersing yourself in non-Jewish culture distances you from Hashem and scews your outlook on life. We want to stay healthy so we can avoid those things.
I’m sorry, but this is really getting me upset.
Consider also, that people have the nisayon of smoking and people have the nisayon of watching movies etc. Because you have one nisayon and not the other, what you are doing is fine, and people with the smoking nisayon are off the d?!
Most people who smoke at least admit that they’d like to quit and they are trying. Am I understanding correctly that you are saying it’s perfectly okay to watch TV, listen to non-Jewish music etc.?
Also, people make mistakes. A young boy who begins smoking is immature. Once he is older it is extremely difficult to stop. Why don’t you try to stop watching movies cold turkey?
Wanting to be seen in a positive light by others is a very human trait. The fact that that translates into having wives who are beauties (physically) is something we can all blame ourselves for, as a society.
Maybe we should put more obvious emphasis on the right things.
Now, it goes without saying that doing things just because of what others think, or trying to get others to look is a terrible thing. (Even if it’s a human tendency.) And yes, bnai Torah should be most aware of that and they should be the last ones marrying, or doing anything else for that reason.
Bottom line: we are all works in progress.
Who told you she actually didn’t say a word on the first dates? What did they do the entire time? Are you sure there was no exaggeration?
Also, I am quite familiar with the Chareidi Israeli dating culture and in my opinion it’s not that different from yeshivish norms in America.
Expecting other people to think the way you do is just plain unrealistic. But that does not mean that you should agree with what they are thinking.
But, like CA said, there are certain things that every human should realize on their own. (Killing is wrong etc.)
That’s hard. You can call people you haven’t spoken to in a while or are in dif time zones.
You can daven.
You can read…
Can you bake or cook at all?
Glad to hear. I’m sorry for the wrong assumption.
When I read the post about a 28 yr old inviting a cripple to show his guests not to speak l”h… I assumed that’s what you thought was okay. Or when you wrote that we shouldn’t feel bad for someone suffering because he is a criminal and “deserves it”….
Anyway very happy to hear I misinterpreted.
Refuah shelaima! What can you do (physically) and what do you enjoy doing?
Reading?
Crafting?
Scrapbooking?
Listening to shiurim?
Organizing?
Just had to weigh in on this.
In my teens I was obsessed with these concepts, now I look back and there are two important lessons I learned.
1. We cannot understand a lot of things that happen in this world, even if we are given a glimmer of understanding here and there, the big picture is so big. We need to trust Hashem that everything He does is for the best.
2. Do what’s right. Hashem gave us clear instructions, we don’t need guessing games. Follow halachah, do what’s right and leave the rest up to Hashem. I believe judging others in the way newbee suggested is reprehensible. (Sorry, newbee.)
It’s against the way we are taught to think: :”al tadin…” etc.
The only way to treat a person as mentioned above is with compassion. Showcasing him as a lesson to learn is against halacha. (Think embarrassing someone, onaas devarim …)
Oh, and I second Haleivi on what he said about this person in this gilgul being a new person. If he did not do any aveiros in this lifetime, he should be viewed as a tzaddik. I think it’s the Ben Ish Chai that says a gilgul means a spark of a previous neshama (a certain aspect of the soul came down again) but the first person and the second are each still their own unique individual.
I heard this by the Har Nof tragedy, and I heard it again now. (The person who said it over mentioned a source – I pretty certain it was in Yeshaya, and also something R’ Moshe Feinstein said regarding a tragic accident in his time.)
Every time Hashem takes people from us in an unnatural way it’s a korban for klal Yisrael – how? Klal Yisrael are wonderful but at different times we have different weaknesses. When one particular weakness becomes a kitrug against us, we need a zechus to save us. Hashem chooses people who do NOT have those weaknesses – people that are actually strong in those areas and He takes them as karbanos. When that person’s Neshama leaves this world, their maasim tovim protect us more than while they were alive.
So perhaps something we can do is try to find out about what kind of children the Sassoon children were. What did they excel in?
And we can take inspiration and a lesson from that.
Accountant: I think you need to ask yourself some questions.
First of all, why do you want to project an image of someone you are not? (It sounds like you DO have an issue with certain things you are doing now because you don’t want to attract the kind of girl that’ll be happy with you the way you are now.)
How do you want your future home to look?
It’s commendable that your relationship with Hashem is important to you. But as believing Jews, we know that it is NOT us that get to decide what brings us closer or not. We have halachah that we need to follow. So watching movies should be something you ask a shailah about.
(I’m sorry you had a bad experience with the yeshivish crowd. But that does not mean that your choices are right just by virtue of being different than their’s.)
The wife you marry will impact the way your home is – that goes without saying. Are you focused on growing upwards – are you committed to following da’as Torah? MO style or the style you grew up with?
These are all questions you need to answer.
This is a major decision that will impact your entire ruchniyusdig future I suggest you try to find your center and remember what’s really important in life.
Wishing you loads of hatzlachah!
You originally asked if it’s against halacha.
Why don’t you ask your rabbi?
(I’m sure the psak would be entirely different for different people, depending on their expertise in Tanach etc.)
Regarding debates, in my opinion it’s best to steer clear of them altogether. It’s easy for anyone to skew a debate in the direction they want it and often it’s the more charismatic person who “wins” – not the one with more knowledge.
There are a lot of other important ways to do anti-missionary work.
First, Sam you never responded to what I said about feelings being right or wrong.
Feeling “spiritual” or not should NOT be a measuring stick for right and wrong.
Second, did anyone actually ask a rabbi what the right perspective is on this.
Third, we are here to be marbeh kvod shamayim, and our neshamos should be filled with joy when that is happening. Examples of that happening would be the siyum hashas and simchas Torah (places I’ve been to, anyway)
However you’re participating, the joy is there for all those who wish to experience it.
In general, I find this thread disturbing, but I can’t put my finger on why.
You don’t really want to do that…
Or
No you don’t like that at all. I know you.
Or
You’re sure? (10 times)
I’m not crazy. I know what I like, what I want to do and when I say stuff I (almost always) mean it.
A yerei shamayim would definitely top my list. Someone who is looking to grow spiritually. An authentic, genuine person.
Like jfem says don’t marry expecting your spouse to change, but you must definitely be open to change and willing to accomodate.
Business, I do think keepclimbing should list it here. Then he really needs to do it. Otherwise he might never do it.
Writersoul, I think you are right about it referring specifically to the story with Batsheva.
My point was that people from Tanach were on a level that not many of us can imagine.
Yes, we need to draw inspiration from them and their actions, but to be able to “relate” – I don’t think that’s something we can do. And if we are doing it and drawing parallels then we don’t understand who they truly were.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Randomex,
What’s the answer science gives to that question?
Yes he was human, but no, that does not mean we need to feel we are able to relate to him.
Different humans are on different levels, sometimes worlds apart. The people from tanach
(including David) were on a completely different level than we are on today.
“Anybody that says David sinned is mistaken” is a quote from chazal. It means that what we think were David’s sins are not really what they were at all.
Do I understand that?
No. But that’s the point.
I realize this doesn’t answer you’re question, but I am questioning your need to be able to “relate” to the people in Tanach.
Keep climbing,
How about listing 5 things you DO like about yourself right here, in the CR? No-one knows who you are anyway, and I believe it may be good for you. What do you think? Up to the challenge?
Sam,
There are negative feelings and positive feelings. (ex: NOT to hate ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? and to love ????? ?? ? ) That the Torah can command us not to have certain feelings is clear.
It’s definitely within human capability to control negative feelings using certain techniques.
Commanding someone to have positive feelings seems to be a chiddush and I believe the question is asked when we are commanded to love Hashem.
The answer is that we really DO love Hashem. The commandment is to peel away the layers and to get in touch with our true feelings.
I do not know what you are referring to with Rabbi Soloveitchik.
YS, isn’t that a different discussion: the scope of knowledge and how far you can justifiably apply your knowledge.
I thought the question was, what is the minimum requirements for something to be considered knowledge.
Anyway, Chaims “knowledge” seems similar to the concept of “niba vlo yada mah niba”.
N… is right. Ratzon Hashem is what matters most. That’s why you should probably ask your Rabbi. He is more qualified to determine what is ratzon Hashem.
Also, we can’t decide what makes us closer to Him, He does.
Modern psychology tells us feelings are never wrong, and Jewish feminist, you are telling Lior that he can’t tell you what to feel. You’re right, he can’t. But Hashem can. I don’t know how that applies to the scenario being discussed.
But feelings can be wrong and you need to be open to that.
(Ex we can’t feel jealous…)
Never studied philosophy before, but I fail to see how step 2 – he needs to be justified in believing what he believes- makes it knowledge. I would classify that as a level above knowledge, understanding. The first and third are enough for knowledge. You can know for certainty that something is true wothout having a justifiable reason. (Ex: My head hurts. No clue why. The justifiable reason cannot be that it hurts me. Thats the fact.)
Also how is Chaim justified in believing that the person who gets the job will have ten coins in hos pocket. He can take them out etc. It’s a silly transitive (whatever its called) because its extremely sbject to change.
Also knowledge is only worth something when you can identify what the knowledge is. Chaims “knowledge” may end up turning out true, but he didn’t realize how. Hardly qualifies as knowledge.
And btw, I’m pretty sure oyyoyoy means it shouldn’t be a big deal, because how exactly is figuring this out going to change your life other than giving you some intellectual pleasure?
I don’t know halachically what would be wrong with it, but I’m wondering what’s wrong with standing in the ezras nashim looking at the men joyously celebrating that Hashem gave us as a nation the Torah. Simchas Torah was always my favorite time of year – the pride of being part of Am Yisrael, of being chosen to receive the Torah (which also gives me direction as to what my role is as a woman in the scheme of things)
Personally, I never felt deprived because I couldn’t actually hold the Torah and dance with it.
(I didn’t read the entire thread, but one thing disturbed me – shopping, NOT all teens are suicidal! That’s crazy. Having existential questions are normal, but suicidal? I think keep climbing should definitely talk to a professional about suicidal thoughts.
Keep Climbing, you are in therapy and here you have sympathy from kind strangers.
BUT I want you to know that you are the only one that can help yourself. You need to take the reins and make some decisions. Your title is quite revealing – you DON’T want to give in to your depression. So DON’T. There was plenty of great advice given here, and climbing to the top is a process. You need to build yourself up from the inside out. You need to stop relying on other people to feed your self worth. It’s addictive and destructive. What does Hashem consider valuable? The desire to be close to him and the effort made to fulfill that desire.
Self pity never helped anyone. You might feel comfortable being in the state of mind you are in – depression. You need to make a conscious decision to get out of it. That will be harder than staying depressed but so worth it.
I don’t know if your anxiety stems from a lack of bitachon, but why shouldn’t it be possible? When I find myself feeling worried or anxious, the best antidote is to remember that Hashem is in charge, and I am not in control. Worrying won’t help. Surrendering your problems to Hashem works!
It’s interesting that it’s a mitzvah for men to marry, while a woman has no obligation.
I’ve heard different, and often opposing reasons for it, though.
A hypothesis:
??????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? , ??? ?????, ?????, ???? ????? ???? ????? ????- I believe all the middos you mention are all different sides to the same coin – living in an illusory reality. It’s the opposite of truth, which is good, so I think it may be self explanatory why these middos i.e. living an illusion are the worst. It’s the farthest away from the truth.
Gaavah – self explanatory. Having gaavah means living in the illusion of “Koch v’otzem yadi”
Taavah – living with the false assumption that what you want is THE most important, you’ll stop at nothing to get it. Forgetting that Hashem is the One that should determine your wants, and that other peoples feelings should come into consideration.
False Gaavah – Building a false reality where you are the best at everything. (Can’t do teshuva in that case, because what’s there to do teshuvah for? I’m wonderful.)
Loving bad – that’s also creating a false reality, seeing bad as good and good as bad.
I used second person just because it was easier. I ‘m not talking to anyone specific.
I have no idea if I am right or wrong, and I did not check the context of your quotes. This is just a hypothesis.
P.S. If you’ve ever met a person who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder you can see clearly how all these middos tend to exist together.
You are basically saying that whatever someone believes is fine as long as they really believe it is true. Muslims believing they got a command from Hashem is NOT the same as Bnei Yisrael actually getting a command from Hashem. Judaism and Islam are not comparable. They are not two religions. Judaism is the truth, Islam is a man-made religion and perversion of the truth.We are responsible for and judged for what we believe. The Muslims will be judged for believing in a prophet that doesn’t take much to disprove. They will be held responsible and they will be judged for killing in the name of that prophet.
(As an aside, Hashem gave us an inborn sense of morality for a reason. It’s supposed to lead us to the recognition of the truth.)
In general we are not allowed to kill etc. However if Hashem tells us to, we must – and if I remember correctly, the people fighting were given a promise that if they are doing so only because Hashem said so, it will not numb their midah of rachmanus.)
Are you talking about the times of Yehoshuah?
Hal, I agree with you 100%.
SJ… I find your comment disturbing. If you don’t believe mitzvos are necessary why are you doing them? How can you claim to get schar for not believing? I think you need to be true to yourself – you shouldn’t be living a lie. If you’re frum, you should believe in Hashem and the truth and necessity of the Torah. If you don’t really believe and you’re just frum because you’re scared that you might turn out to be wrong, you need to be honest with yourself about that. Please continue doing the mitzvos if that’s the case, but realize that
1- That’s NOT the ideal. You should try to further your spiritual growth.
2- That’s NOT the norm for most of us.
Personally, as a teenager, I read about lots of different religions. (Probably shouldn’t have) I feel like I chose to be a Torah abiding Jew as much as any baal teshuvah.
Being a true Torah jew, like Hal said, is a DAILY upward struggle.
Many things can be mentioned yet dont actually exist. What are you trying to say?
Anyway, we all KNOW we exist. We dont need proof. You can prove to me that I don’t exist, and I’ll still know I exist.
Inasmuch as I exist, Someone had to put me here. I KNOW that too (same kind of knowledge, but fortunately theres plenty of proof.). And Who should I trust more about the truth then Him?
So yes, we can know that the truth is the truth.
(That was longwinded maybe, but I still left out a lot of the in between reasoning)
How do you you know you exist?
When mashiach comes there will finally be clarity. What greater reward can I ask for?
Haleivi whats the difference between gilgul and the other concept you mentioned? Can you explain that concept more in detail?
I agree Little Froggie. What was nasty? Maybe a little nosy. Not nasty. He was just wondering about people’s motives.
Nobody here ever questions their own motives? It is a good thing to do once in a while. Keeps you on track. Personally, his question got me thinking. Why did everyone become so defensive? I didnt think he came to attack in his first post.
Popa, you should compliment the therapist on little froggies sefira thread:)
I dont understand how Hashems providence is proof of extraterrestrials. Hashem is called HaMakom- He is everywhere and was metzamtzem Himself so to speak so this world can be created in the space. Hashem knows everything, sees everything. What does flying through 18,000 worlds mean? Isnt He everywhere at all times?
Also what would be the point of extraterrestrials if they have no free choice? Didnt it say Hashem created the world for Yisrael? And didnt he create it so we can choose right and come closer to Him? Extraterrestrials wouldnt have that.
Is it kefira to say there are other worlds with different purposes?
Maybe these places are for neshamos that need to get punished, but dont want to make any more mistakes, so Hashem lets them go to one of these worlds so they can get cleansed.
Just a hypothesis.
Or maybe these places are in a whole different dimension.
After 120 do our neshamos still exist in space as we know it? That was something i was always curious about.
This is interesting. I remember hearing from a rabbi once that spouses need to be going/ looking in the same direction for a marriage to work. I think i once understood that, not sure if i still do. Marriage is a commitment. Barring any extremes, youre married for life. May as well give it your all and love your spouse, no?
Making it conditional will not make life happier for you.
What do you mean?
What does interest in these things have to do with a lack of emuna?
Mechel’s