The little I know

Dovid:

Yes. Ask your local orthodox rabbi. Asking a shailoh requires being open and honest. Posek must also know the one asking, and understand the subject matter. The title “rabbi” or even the position as moroh d’asroh do not guarantee that the rov is qualified.

GH:

You referenced the substance abuse issue. It triggered a thought, I share it here.

Over the past many years, we have read reams of articles and heard many hours of lectures and speeches addressing the problem of OTD, formerly known as at-risk kids, or kids in the parsha. A huge percentage tried to identify the most universal factor involved as a cause so that we can direct our resources. We heard the “bad friends”, the technology, abuse, unstable family, single parent family, and more. And there is at least anecdotal data to support correlation between such issues and children who become “OTD”.

However, for anyone with the bits of education about science and statistics, correlation does not prove causality, and inferring that is a mistake. Does drug abuse cause OTD? Do access to a cell phone, smartphone, computer, social media and the like cause OTD? Many believe there is a true causal relationship. I disagree. In all those I have known (large numbers), and one can query any of the askanim and professionals that deal with these kids, the connection is usually the other direction. The kid that struggles with the issues of emunoh, the lack of cheishek for Torah and mitzvos, the feelings of abandonment and rejection, etc. will look elsewhere for solace. They find the welcoming arms of a spectrum of hedonistic drives, the excitement, the thrills of risk taking, the social connections that appear more real than the ones that failed them, etc. The cell phones, movies, and social media were not the first steps out of the fold. Surely these factors assist the outward trajectory but they are not the original cause.

We need to look inward at ourselves to see where we need to make Torah and mitzvos beautiful for ourselves and families (and talmidim) so that we attract them to a Yiddishkeit they will enjoy.

Yserbiius123:

You ask two great questions.

#1 – Correct. There are no statistics, or even agreement on what and how to assess.

#2 – There is no operational definition for OTD. While it would differ widely if you were to survey many people, I think we are stuck with the court’s definition for obscenity. “You know it when you see it.”

Interesting question, but I cannot think of a reason to justify answering it. When we look to statistics, it is to have some basis for prediction. Can anyone say that an individual has a XX% chance of returning to the derech? I suggest that not, since there is a huge number of variables involved, and the true determinants are the factors involved for each individual. But it can good discussion, even though there is no practical value to it.

The other part of the problem here is the age old question. “What is the derech?” The typical responses are woefully inadequate (I’m being overly kind – they are probably terribly misguided). Does returning to wearing the proper levush the indication of return? How about Shabbos? The questions go on. These issues might all be valid ones, but what truly indicates return to the “derech”?

Some commenters here need to place phone calls to some of the local politicians and askanim regarding the closing of streets for major events. In reality, when there are such closures, there are authorities around to help the situation. Emergency vehicles get rerouted, and are notified well in advance. Inquire from Hatzoloh if you wish. Even short notice events such as levayos R”L are handled professionally.

Without regard to the cause, just flooding the streets with crowds of people is criminal behavior. They may stay out of the street and chant their message. The media will report it, don’t worry. If some are deluded into believing that the degree of imposition and inconvenience is related to the success of the protest, take the action to the places that are directly involved, such as you police stations, government offices, etc. Get out of my street.

You do not have a Constitutional right to block my access to public property, not my sidewalk, street, shuls, etc. The location is determined not about where it has most impact on the subject matter, but on the degree of inconvenience and disruption to the public. Get outa there. It is not about the subject. The Chazon Ish referred to “Yehoreig ve’al yaavor”, not “Yaharog ve’al yaavor”. Big difference. You may be moseir your nefesh, not mine.

There are two separate issues being discussed here, and the confusion of the two complicates the clarity.

There is considerable empirical support for psychiatric illness, and there is much discussed even in the Talmud. While psychiatry is a soft science (as opposed to hard science – those about things that can be accurately observed and measured), it remains a science which is primarily based on research, not theory. Whether something is a legitimate illness or condition is something i would seek from research, not commenters in the CR. Anyone is free to have an opinion, but one’s belief does not constitute fact.

The second issue is the child in the school setting that is not performing according to some preconceived notions. This calls into play the mission of the yeshiva/classroom, what is the understanding of a child’s inability to perform to perfection (or close) on academic tasks (such as tests), and the ability of the school and faculty to accommodate to help the child.

On the latter, the ADHD diagnosis is a legitimate one, though it has its naysayers. It exists on a spectrum of severity, and there are a variety of symptoms that can exist in various combinations and levels. It is a problem that there are those that fling this label wherever they want, while lacking training to know just when to apply it. It is abused by many in the education field, sometimes being ignored, other times being used to label a child unnecessarily. I bet the medications are overused, but there are also times when withholding the medications is a mistake. The ideal would be for experts to make these determinations. It is often that the symptoms of the ADHD issues are observed in the academic setting, and hardly elsewhere. This responsibility falls on the educators, many of whom are not equipped to handle it.

Just as one cannot use discipline to treat a fever, it is misapplied when used for learning issues, ADHD, and many other behavioral problems. There is a role for discipline, but it often requires much to know just when it is appropriate.

We need not to confuse the issues of mental health and education.

tcanter:

No one is prescribing choosing where to live based on the gathering of neitzosos. One would need to be steeped in Kabbalah to have access to that knowledge, aside from other spiritual achievements. The discussion of this we are capable of understanding is that we can recognize on hindsight that there were reasons we needed to be where we were at that given time. No, we are likely to not truly understand this, but our belief system and the understanding that Hashem makes the world exist every moment in time with divine and infinite cheshbonos provides us a language to use to explain it. Without the Kabbalistic vocabulary, it is frequent that hindsight enables us to recognize our experiences as having been beneficial even when we could not have predicted it beforehand.

Our responsibility is to make the best choices we can with what Hashem gave us. This hardly includes those matters that reside in domains beyond our grasp. But the hindsight can afford us a better focus.

Joseph:

Cut it out. Your comments are all focused on degrading others. OOT and IT both have their maalos. It is a lie to claim that OOT is a choice for gashmiyus and IT is a choice for ruchniyus. That is simply untrue. All that is correct is that there are the more external trappings of each, IT having greater access to religiosity and OOT less so. But if you would focus on absolute emes, you would recognize that these externals do NOT determine at all whether someone is living a truly spiritual life. Way back before the Holocaust, the majority of frum Yidden lived in the shtetl, where they maintained their insular communities, without a beis hamedrash on every block, without kosher ice cream stores, where there was zero competition who makes a bigger and fancier chumash seuda, has the huge, obscenely expensive weddings, where hechsherim are as competitive as peddlers. No big cities, but tzaddikim, pashute Yidden. Even the few yeshivos were not competitive. People learned by Rebbeim, not names of cities. No shidduch resumes, no making shidduchim based on common practices of using the eiruv versus not using it, no one-upping in chumros, etc. These are actually spiritual things that matter more than the external religiosity. I think I have said enough to make the point understandable.

Yes, IT, with its current easy access to many resources has its maalos, as many here have noted. But none of these guarantee that someone is a better Yid. One can utilize these things and indeed accomplish much. But the same can be said for OOT.

Stop writing things to irritate. Recognize a bit of truth, and that your opinion is just that, a personal preference. Other choose differently, and כולם אהובים כולם ברורים.

Joseph:

The attitude of disposing of children is non-existent OOT. There are no competitors, and no one is busy vying for the image of exclusivity. Never say never, but these expulsions and rejections are rare. IT is very different, and yeshivos often view their ability to reject and expel as badges of honor. Sad.

Dorming is not that bad, so i wouldn’t give it a bad rap. It was the norm back in the day.

kollelman:

The custom of Birchas Habonim on Friday night appears to have been well known and widespread in earlier generations. However, virtually every reference I have seen on the subject refers to the brocho being given by the father. I have no problem accepting that a mother can also bentch children, and would actually consider this something I would invite and appreciate. But I have never seen it referenced. Secondly, even the references to the Ari Zal do not have any mention of preparing the hand to give the brocho. It sounds like a nice thought. Where did you find it?

It is reported that the Ari Zal when he arrived home from davening Friday night, would kiss his mother’s hand. The practice has a history. Aside from that, it was often that the Rebbe was sitting and those coming to greet him were standing. Kissing the hand was about the only convenient way to do it. If there is merit to this observation, it would suggest the nature of the relationship was more than simple respect.

The implied premise is that living IT (in town) is somehow better than OOT (out of town). I doubt that anyone would deny that there are benefits to living IT, but it has grown to be treated as if that is somehow a requirement to living a decent, frum life. That I question. Why not recreate most of the benefits of living IT in an OOT location, where one can reap the benefits of both?

What is silly about this question is that people differ. For those who studied in yeshivos, we have experienced rebbeim who have particular strengths in pilpul, halacha, bekius, etc. All are parts of Torah, and all are relevant to all. Just as someone with artistic talent can develop it and excel, and may well do poorly in something else (or even just average), the same is said for the pursuit of expertise in areas of learning. Noting that a talmid chochom has certain areas of particular proficiency does not ch”v denigrate him regarding other areas. And, of curse, there are those who master several aspects. Again, כולם אהובים כולם ברורים כולם גבורים כולם קדושים. What is far more important is that talmidim should be guided to develop themselves where their strengths lie. If Roshei Yeshivos, Mashgichim, and Magidei Shiurim really knew their talmidim as they should, they would be able to recognize the strengths and direct them appropriately.

So, to the OP, pilpul vs. halacha is the equivalent of apples vs. oranges.

The wonderful minhag of learning all night Shavuos does not diminish the obligation to daven Shacharis. And davening without being able to concentrate and be emotionally involved is close to useless. Tefila has an inherent challenge built into it. It must be done with complete involvement, yet it is done routinely, and routine tends to render the actions more mechanical than emotional. That exists every day. But when we take the beautiful tefilos of Yom Tov and try to do them while sleep deprived, with our heads bobbing up and down, dozing on and off, and unable to concentrate, we have a serious problem. It may well be better to sleep first, and daven later (with fulfilling requirements about zman krias shema and tefiloh. I have heard of those who go to mikva before shacharis, and are thrilled to find a mikva that is cold. That should wake you up enough to get through Mussaf without dozing.

Counter questions:

* Should children or bochurim be taught to master the skill or art of collecting?
* Should children or bochurim be taught to utilize time that should be spent learning doing fundraising instead?
* Should a yeshiva that already employs fundraising staff do additional collecting via their talmidim?
* Were these bochurim taught how to collect properly – not to disrupt someone’s davening, not to ask for more, not be rude or greedy but only couteous?
* Were the bochurim taught that their cause is no greater than other tzedokoh causes, and that they are not entitled to anyone else’s money?
* Were the bochurim given incentives in dollar figures that makes them more pushy?

I could go on. Collecting tzedokoh is not always a bad thing. But it can be highly disruptive to others, and of questionable merit for a bochur’s schedule. The balancing of the yeshiva budget should not be placed on the shoulders of the students, ever, period. I recall yeshivos whose bochurim were told to collect for their yeshiva on Purim. Two brothers were almost expelled because they collected on Purim for a worthy tzedokoh that was not their yeshiva. Something smells bad about that. I suggest that yeshivos read through lists of questions such as those presented here, and then determine if and how to send bochurim collecting.

NCB:

Comparing apples and oranges. I have used both. No similarity.

HB allows for download. Then the sefer is on my hard drive. I can print out what I need, and always have access to it. The pdf format is quite user friendly.

Sefaria is a memory heavy website, and won’t open on many devices. Okay on my desktop, not on my phone or tablet (even though permitted by my filter). The text is better for copy and paste into other documents, less convenient in the HB pdf format.

Depends on your needs.

RG:

You are incorrigible. Staying up on Shavuos night is NOT a halacha. It is a minhag. The sifrei halacha can set normative practice according to their judgment, and they concluded that this means just the first night. You cannot accuse them of guiding people to be meikil! That is a baseless shmear on these poskim, all of whom could outdo you in learning any day. You can strain yourself to remain awake the second night if you please, and it might just earn you some Heavenly points. Those points will be lost by judging other Yidden who comply with normative halacha/minhag as deficient or wimping.

One poster noted that Rav Elyashiv ZT”L did not stay up on Shavuos night at all. You would claim that he was mevatel a mitzvah, and that his doing so in order to function the rest of the Yomtov is hypocrisy. That chutzpah is unacceptable. Should you merit a visit to Eretz Yisroel, I would suggest you travel to Bnei Brak and visit his kever. You may ask mechila for suggesting that the Gadol Hador was a hypocrite.

Lastly, there is a concept called לפנים משורת הדין. It has many applications. There is not a single one in which the individual who does not do the extra is considered “less than” or meikil. You can undertake whatever chumros you wish. But following normative halacha cannot be blasphemed to be called meikil.

I will stop commenting on this, as you have made up your mind, and refuse to be confused by the truth.

I should add that the nazir is kadosh, as noted in the psukim referenced above. But he also brings karbanos of חטאת ואשם, as his choice of פרישות was extreme. That is what is derived from the seemingly conflicting divrei Chazal.

RG:

I speak as an insider. There are a great many Chabad shuls that conduct Shalosh Seudos just as in non-Chabad shuls. There are two items that need to be part of the discussion.

1 – Even in 770, where the Rebbe ZT”L conducted a non-meal farbrengen, his brother-in-law, R’ Shmarya Guraryeh (often referred to as the RaShaG) conducted Shalosh Seudos with a meal. I was told by old timers from Chabad that this was the will of R’ Yosef Yitzchok ZT”L, their father-in-law.

2 – Many Chabad shuls have minyonim that are composed of other Yidden who are not from Chabad, and they cater to the practices of their mispallelim. I have personal experience with this, and I am suggesting that this as not unique to my experience.

This explains your empirical data about Chabad shuls. Note that Chabad does not consider Shalosh Seudos a negative thing.

RG:

You referenced “Also Sh”t Tzitz Eliezer vol 17, s. 13.”

Looked, and found nothing relevant to the discussion.

In my earlier comment, I was stating clearly that with the exception of Chabad, no one supports the Divrei Torah as a substitute for Shlosh Seudos as a lechatchila. There can always be exceptions, and Erev Pesach is one example. Shabbos Teshuvah drosho is another. Here, it is bedi’eved. If you find additional exceptions, that would have no bearing on my point.

As for the Mateh Efraim noting that we cannot simply compare ourselves to Rashbi, that is essentially the Gemora (Brochos 36b) where it states הרבה עשו כרבי שמעון ב”י ולא עלתה בידם. One cannot always mimic the actions of a tzaddik. One needs to follow the instructions as found in Shas and Shulchan Aruch.

RG:

Your response to confrontational comments is comical. You can assume for yourself anything you want. You can say tehilim, etc., and unless this impinges on your other responsibilities, you should not need anyone’s permission. I gotta believe you recognize this. But should you do so, does that grant you the context to consider others meikilim if they don’t? Chas veshalom!

We are not looking to normalize lashon horah or bittul Torah. We are simply recognizing the minhag Yisroel as supported by virtually all Gedolim of many generations, and it is only rational to see this as normal. Your choice of levush may not be determined by the gedolim as what constitutes normal, as there is great variability in this, and our Klal is composed of a mosaic of different minhagim. You can thus choose to stand out from others in your community or to blend in.

Go right ahead and follow the obscure shittos you discover in your travels through halacha, minhagim, and history. If you would just recall that ועמך כולם צדיקים, you would join the ranks of the many Gedolei Hador that sought to emphasize the merits of Klal Yisroel, seeing them as jam packed with mitzvos, not meikilim who covered up their laziness with ignorance. The Torah I learned teaches אחרי רבים להטות, that we seek the majority opinion. Perhaps you think you are smarter than that. I will stick with the guidance the Torah gives me, and the truly great Rebbes I had throughout my yeshiva years and into the present.

Tonite, 11 Iyar, is the yahrtzeit of Reb Naftoli of Ropschitz ZT”L. A famous quote from him is that the word פרום is roshei teivos of פיהל רשעות וויניג מצוות. Plenty of evil, lack of mitzvos. His guidance is precious.

klugeryid:

Great question. I think the answer is that not every behavior or misbehavior must have consequences. To worship punishment as the most valuable ingredient in chinuch is a colossal error. This use of consequences doesn’t teach. At the very best, it controls. And there is a limit to how much control one will exert on a child before there is repercussions.

The primary aspect of chinuch is exactly what it translates as. Training. Teaching. One needs to educate in ways that do more than just download information. One must make the proper derech of behavior something that the child learns to be a positive thing, that they should want to aspire to that. I sincerely believe that one of the greatest problems in today’s yeshivos and schools is the use of discipline as the primary tool. It has its role, but very, very secondary to the teaching. No one ever succeeded in imparting moral values via reward or punishment. And as long as we observe our mechanchim and menahalim exercising their authority and power, we will achieve nothing.

It is not about whether one may potch a child or talmid. It is about revisiting the goals of chinuch and how to achieve them. And, I know it is repeating, the tachlis of producing a child or talmid that has been imbued with love for Torah and mitzvos is not accomplished with punishment. Intimidation gives the wrong message, and fails to bring about positive growth.

The entire subject of segulos is to the frum Yid what technology is to the goy. It is the instant gratification disease. Tell someone that warming food will take a half hour instead of a few minutes in the microwave, you become archaic and prudish. Tell someone that being a recipient of Hashem’s shefa requires earning it with zechusim, mitzvos and maasim tovim, the refraining from issurim, and you are similarly archaic. It sounds like the story of the quite ignorant chossid who was single who believed that going to a particular tzaddik for a brocho was all that was needed to have children.

The inyan of segulah is mentioned countless times throughout Torah, and it is found all over Shas. But it was never intended to supplant the rigorous tasks of the Taryag Mitzvos.

It s also noteworthy that the trend to visit kevarim is astronomically greater than it ever was in our history. Yes, Kalev went to Me’oras Hamachpeilah. Yes, Yosef Hatzaddik visited Kever Rochel. But the excursions of masses would be unrecognizable to the earlier generations. Among most chassidim, the graveside visits were limited to close family going for a yahrtzeit or to invite to an upcoming wedding. Kivrei tzaddikim were not ignored, but were not a source of marketing for funds or expressions of publicity.

Has anyone heard the troves of stories of Chassidishe Rebbes of Europe going to kevarim of the Baal Shem Tov and the Magid of Mezrich? How about the Litvishe Gedolim of Europe visiting the kevarim of the Vilna Gaon, the Chofetz Chaim, or Rav Chaim Brisker? I believe that occasional visits happened. I bet that more visit all of the kevarim now than when there were thriving communities in proximity. Again, kivrei tzaddikim are places where tefilos can be special. But we downplay the role of tefiloh with a tzibbur in the local beis hamedrash, as if this is mundane and less meaningful. I suspect that the tzaddikim we speak of, would be displeased by such an attitude.

Actually, the true meaning in our lives is found between the pages of the seforim written that contain the Divrei Torah spoken by these tzaddikim. Would the Chofetz Chaim prefer that one learned his precious seforim, rather than spend the time and money to visit his kever? One should wonder. Rav Nachum of Chernobyl specifically asked that his seforim be studied rather than going to the kever.

But the belief that one can accomplish at the kever instead of the the Avodas Hashem of daily life of Torah and Mitzvos is plainly ignorant. But trends toward ignorance are not uncommon these days.

Joseph:

Of course. New clients/customers might have their name in caller id, though I would not recognize the number. Most “unknown” I don’t answer. But many have a name, bogus or the name of the fundraising individual. Since the call might be someone legitimately looking for me to seek my services/products, I will answer the phone. The distraction from my work is thus worthwhile. But when they jump into their dishonesty, this is unfair. And they have stolen time from me and my work. In their anonymity, they are getting away with robbery. Any heter for that?

A large percentage of Rebbetzins in America within the Chassidishe community who are of American birth or arrived in America in their youth attended Bais Yaakov. The Chassidishe communities, as they grew, created their own girls schools just as they created their own yeshivos. There were Chassidishe Rebbes who attended Yeshivas Rabbenu Yitzchok Elchonon. The preferences to be mechanech one’s children within their own communities is legendary, and is not newsworthy. Prior to much of the growth we see today, Chassidishe families patronized the Litvishe yeshivos, and girls attended the frum schools that existed at that time. I can provide many examples.

Joseph quoted R’ Elchonon Wasserman HY”D: “Kovetz Shiurim II:47: If you must learn books that contain apikursus, it is prohibited … needless to say even to make money or to prevent a loss thereof… If you learn secular studies in order to know a skill to make a living, it is permitted, and it is a Mitzvah. However, this is only in general. But if a person sees that his son wants to learn Torah and he is prepared to be a Gadol B’Torah, in such a case R. Nehuray said: “I will forgo all skills in the world and teach my son only Torah.”

R’ Nehora’i was referring specifically to his son. He was not prescribing this for everyone. This Tanna knew that his son has the capability and the passion to become a scholar, and he stated that he would guide him that way. Not needing our endorsement, that is completely rational, and is not only good for him but for the Klal, as well. What about the father who knows that his son lacks that capability or passion or both? Should he push him to remain in learning? This quote from Reb Elchonon suggests that not.

The dilemma that is faced in threads such as this is the confusion of what is appropriate for an individual and what should be cast as the community standard. And we will never get the massive percentages of full time, career learners that the yeshivos try to boast. Should we push English studies or should we ban them? That’s a community question, not what a specific individual needs.