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This discussion should not be taking place here. We posters in the CR are not professionals, not in medicine, pharmacology, or public health. The issues at hand are complex, and our lay opinions are worth nothing, even though we are entitled to have them.
Scientific research is a complicated process. One seeks to find a causal relationship, in this case, with the medication being effective. There are so many variables that make this far from simple. Dosage is only one of those. There are many physiological variables, the conditions of the patient, etc. that are relevant. The length of time, the combinations with other drugs, etc. These require controlled conditions, a sample that is sizable enough to be sure the results are not by chance, and the comparison to other interventions (or lack thereof). Two doctors using any particular medication in different places and under different conditions cannot compare or contrast their results.
The amount of time to resolution or cure is also a factor, as are side effects. We are all a bunch of fools shooting off our mouths about a subject that is beyond us. As much as I tend to support Trump, I believe it was not his place to speak to the public about this medication. He might say there are ideas being floated and examined by scientists and doctors, but he is not the one to push a medical agenda.
Luna:
Excellent point.
We have deified our rabbonim to the point where we believe they can answer every possible question or solve every possible problem. Meanwhile, they are unable to fix a leaky pipe, repair an automobile, fly an airplane, or make medical decisions. They may be well qualified to pasken halacha shailos. I found the anti-vaxx fiasco extremely disturbing, with many situations of rabbonim mixing into the subjects were they have zero training or expertise. As ling as the questions are medical, let the experts handle them. To whatever degree halacha is involved, these rabbonim need to accept the medical issue as determined by those experts, and then rule. I was terribly disappointed when rabbonim created their own halachos regarding vaccinations by disregarding the medical experts.
Even rabbonim have areas of expertise. Most can reliably pasken about fleishig-milchig issues in the kitchen, and are probably adept at Shabbos and hilchos tefila. Can your local orthodox rabbi pasken matters of constructing a mikva? Perhaps, but not necessarily so. Questions that are specialty issues belong with the experts who can be reliable to provide direction.
Joseph:
I cannot speak for the Tosafos Yom Tov. In contrast to our generation, he was a Baal Ruach Hakodesh. Nor will I accept that I am in any way minimizing the gedolim of today. I will reference Rav Elyashiv ZT”L responding to one of the terror tragedies in E”Y where there were several comments attributing a cause to it. He strongly stated (this was on video I think) that a tragedy should make everyone introspect and change what they need to. But to make a statement about a general cause is not appropriate. Meanwhile, the tendency to attribute causes has followed the pattern of everyone making an issue out of their own pet peeve. Remember the child in BP that was tragically murdered? Do you also remember some speakers blaming this on tznius? I confronted one of the speakers (a recognized Gadol who I think the world of), and he admitted that his statement was incorrect, impulsive, and actually a disservice to the Klal.
It is true that our community has much to fix. That needs to be done. And if a misfortune or calamity triggers that, at least the tikunim happen. But I would be wary if any human tells me that he has the inside story of Hashem’s master plan.
I bet that plenty of people have ideas, and many of them are pushing them through social media and other forms of publicity. There is a painful reality that seems to elude way too many people. Hashem did not consult with us mortals before arranging His hashgocho protis. We also lack the neviim to explain to us exactly what we need to know about the Divine cheshbonos. This is true for every single event since we last had these baalei Ruach Hakodesh. So we are limited in being unable to honestly declare the causes for these major events, whether mass shootings, terror attacks, pandemics, etc. All we can do is to examine ourselves and make tikunim in our lives to be better at our Avodas Hashem. None of know the specifics of our tafkid in our very existence. What we do know is that we have a Torah with 613 mitzvos, and Oral Torah that provides us with any other specifics in how to conduct our lives, and countless seforim that bring all that to our level to make direct applications in our lives. What is right for me might not be the same for you. For this, we need a spiritual guide, as in עשה לך רב, and to develop the skill of חשבון הנפש, where we can fearlessly look inside to see what we need to fix or where to improve. Headlines and Whatsapp messages cannot accomplish this.
We can reasonably say that when this is over, we should do something to make our experiences in yeshivos, batei medrash, simchos something more spiritual. What those specifics may be should be with the guidance of our morei d’asra, our Rav, and our personal introspection. It is reasonable to seek to reset our Avodas Hashem, both public and personal aspects of it. But the delving into what caused it, or why is fruitless, and a general waste of time. Perhaps even arrogant to believe we can identify the intention of HKB”H in how He runs the world.
GH:
You continue with irresponsible generalizations. Not all hotels cramp elderly into a confined area. In fact, there are many who have areas for families to be together, but secluded from others. The implication of you last comment is that “people have their freedom to choose, but are stupid for going to hotels”. That attitude does not speak highly of either intellect, knowledge of the subject matter of hotels on Pesach, the subject of the pandemic. You seem intent on pushing your agenda on others, and that anyone who exercises their right to disagree is wrong.
I don’t like hotels any more than you, and maybe even less. But my preferences relate to me, not to you, not to others.
Some people cannot make Pesach themselves, due to various limitations, and going to hotels is their only option. This covers many elderly couples. Easy for all the commenters here to blame those in the hotel business. These generalizations are offensive and ignorant. The midoh of rushing to blame is childish, and suggests stupidity. Calm down. Everyone needs to make educated decisions that are best for them. I happen to dislike the very thought of going away for Pesach. But that may be what is best for me. Maybe not for someone else.
Typical matter of confusing needs and wants. Yes, it’s normal. But, yes, it’s unhealthy. Part of being a gadol, as in being obligated in mitzvos, is maturing to be able to better distinguish between needs and wants.
The other matter is the jealousy factor – needing something because others have it. Teach midos.
How about Coron Teshuvah?
Dunno. But we gotta blame somebody. Any liberal Dems here who want to blame Trump? When we exhaust ourselves with these pursuits, we might stop relying on the dramas of the “Shidduch Crisis”, investigate to see if one indeed exists, and then propose strategies to make things better. Meanwhile, I am not convinced there is a crisis at the sociological level. I do know there are singles around, and actually know several. I have yet to see data that reflects anything that deserves to be considered a crisis, though the individual singles are certainly experiencing one.
poshiteryid:
I laughed when I read your comment, not because it was humorous, but because you stated a truth that does not appear anywhere in this thread. In reality, there are way too many factors in this subject that make vibrant discussions about whether there even is a shidduch crisis, and if yes, what are the causes. You called attention to something that you avoided labeling, but I will.
The good ole myth of the “learning boy”. Every girl who has been so imbued by her respective Bais Yaakov wants one, and believes that this is her own personal key to spirituality and Olam Haboh. Then there is the boys’ counterpart, where staying in yeshiva and “shteiging”, while avoiding even a passing thought of a career and supporting a family is considered one’s mesiras nefesh to Hashem. This is coupled with layers of defensive concoctions, such as distorted views of bitul Torah, the evils of the secular education systems, and the secular workplace. All of this is developed to shelter these thinkers from the direct instructions of Chazal to support a family and do whatever is relevant to be a provider. Yes, some of these boys will emerge as greats in their respective niches of learning, as Roshei Yeshivos, Magidei Shiur, Rabbonim, Poskim, Dayanim, etc. Many will not succeed as Klai Kodesh, and need to have directed their lives toward success. For those who consider attacking me for being modern and secular, I refer to the Chovas Halevavos – Shaar Habitachon – Perek 3.
So our girls and boys each enter the “parsha” with grave distortions. So just how can shidduchim work if there are unrealistic goals, predictable obstacles that will break engagements, and destroy marriages?
Reb E:
She is not violating a law by tearing the speech. She is using her hands to commit a vulgarity, certainly not a decent thing for a Speaker to do. But then she is a Democrat that has brought use of logic and morality to a dead halt. All that is considered worth doing is obstructing Trump from recreating America. I don’t quite care if she goes to jail or not. But she is a complete disgrace today, and needs to relinquish her position to someone better equipped. Hopefully, Republicans take back the House, and we get to have a Speaker who represents the moral abiding among us.
huju:
You wrote: “And since Trump wrote it (or had it written for him and he approved it), it is probably a pack of lies.”
You and Pelosi et al have one big problem. Try a fact check. You lose, handily. I get that you dislike Trump. I am not pleased with his expressiveness. I am irritated by the repeated put downs and name calling. And if you attack Trump about that, I am with you. But to claim the speech was full of lies is plainly stupid and inaccurate. Pelosi hasn’t been that accurate either, not has your king Hussein Obama. Schiff, Nadler, and Schumer have also been grossly dishonest. First do your fact check, then tell us about what was true and what not.
jackk:
Your comment is full of lies and inaccuracies. There are a few that are actually correct, but are not the president’s failure. It is the roadblock set up by Congress. No, he couldn’t get everything done before losing the House, and you couldn’t either.
Parts of the wall are up. Most is not, having been stopped by Congress in fights through the court. Even rulings in Trump’s favor were stayed because of their incessant obstacle politics. Shame on the Dems.
Obamacare fail is also partly untrue. The mandate which was punitive and stupid is gone.
Muslim ban was stopped by Congress, even though some of it is legal. The ban is not on Muslims. It is on countries that harbor and export terror. And it belongs in place. Vet people from those countries. You want MS-13 or some Hamas members knocking on your door?
The tax cut garbage you spewed is as much a lie as Trump being a racist. The economy is booming, businesses have ability to hire and produce more. You are worse than ignorant for claiming otherwise. Even the Dems avoid talking about the economy, as all their constituents are beneficiaries of the tax cuts,, and they don’t want to acknowledge the truth of Trump’s positive impact. The corporate tax cut had a direct effect on workers, leading to raises and hiring. The food stamp and welfare rolls were slashed, not through throwing people off, but by enabling them to find employment and become independent. And if you wish to lie about that, please do not defile our eyes and ears by doing so publicly here.
I am surprised by what is missing from the discussion.
1) If we look on our Gedolei Yisroel, both present and the history of the past several generations, whether Litvish or Chassidish, there was a concept of vacation. There were several locations around Europe where Chassidishe rebbes congregated during the summer. Our biographies are full of encounters when this one met that one. The idea of taking time off for rest and leisure is not about bitul Torah, but about taking leave from the rigors of the daily routine. Lehavdil, sports also have seasons that occupy part of the year, where the rest of the year can be used for other aspects of life. We have our own role models, and they disprove the bitul Torah argument.
2) The issue that there is vacation is not worthy of debate. Try managing without any interruption of grueling daily routine. What presents a problem is that this is placed on the academic calendar. Not all talmidim, talmidos, hanhala, etc. are ready for such vacation at the same time. An ill scheduled vacation is apt to lose much of the potential benefit. Similar to the belief that the curriculum is appropriate for each talmid, and that the talmid must adapt to that curriculum, so to is the schedule for vacation. Neither of these is true, and pushing a square peg into a round hole is something that even babies discover cannot be done (at least according to Fisher-Price). This not an issue of Torah hashkafah. It is about common sense.
press:
Nice lomdus. But a great many gedolei Yisroel challenged that. The Satmar Rebbe ZT”L once told a Rosh Yeshiva who feared that a talmid would have negative influence on the other 26 talmidim to throw out those 26, and give all his time to that one talmid. Similar stories about Rav Shach, the Chazon Ish, and others.
No one ignores that one bad apple can have destructive impact on others. But the knee jerk to discard the kid is not acceptable in Torah view. HKB”H never abandons any Yid, and has built in mechanisms for teshuvah. Should we not our part to emulate His midos? The expulsion often follows failed efforts at discipline, but sometimes is a rapid fire reaction to a behavior that is feared. It is not beyond the desire to uphold a stated standard (such as no phones, etc.) But who says that this is Torah acceptable? Perhaps the discipline approach is not the effective one to be used. The attitude of hanhalah must always be to look for ways of including the talmid, not how to exclude. If the focus was less on the amount of data, and more on the modeling of midos and cheishek for learning, we would observe a huge difference in behavior.
I hear your math, but that doesn’t explain why HKB”H addresses us as individuals – “kivnei maron” on Rosh Hashanah. The true explanation is that the expelling Rosh Yeshiva or menahel ignores the impact of that action on the talmid. What about the future chinuch of the kid? WEll, there are plenty of yeshivos. Let any of them try their luck with this misfit. All that matters is that he is no longer our problem. Common statements. I have heard them many times. Did you?
Copy and paste from a comment by zahavadad on a thread some years ago.
Once a Rav brought another rav to meet with the Chofetz Chaim , and the Chofetz Chaim threw the second rav out. As the Chofetz Chaim was not known to act this way. The came back a second time and he threw them out again.
The came back a third time and before he could throw them out, The 2nd rav (The one who was thrown out) asked, Why do you throw me out.
The Chofetz Chaim asked him do you remember Lev Bronstein. The rav answered. YES I do. I had to throw him out of the yeshiva..
The Chofetz Chaim told him that Lev Bronstein was now Leon Trotsky head of the Bolshevik Revolution.
This is a volatile topic. What is saddest is that the Gedolei Yisroel of recent generations have provided guidance on the subject, and the current practice is to ignore that completely.
The expected arguments include the mismatch of a talmid to a yeshiva, and that expulsion rectifies this. We will also hear a position that some behavior is that serious that expulsion is the only fitting consequence.
There are other reasons besides behavior that have prompted yeshivos to throw out talmidim. One of them is the non-payment of tuition. That subject has yielded much rage, and gedolim have spoken up on the matter. We all know that running a yeshiva is expensive, and that most yeshivos are running at a deficit. How expulsion solves the problem is still difficult to explain.
The expulsion issue today is even more serious than it was decades ago. The street is an extremely dangerous place. And getting accepted after being thrown out is harder than scaling a cliff. But I do not run a yeshiva, and cannot address every single aspect to the issue.
Reb Eliezer:
Our problem today is a bit different. Today, the parents of the yungerleit that we are proposing to sit in kollel are themselves products of this system. If they have become baalei parnosoh, they have likely not reached the level at which they can do that much to support their sons or sons-in-law.
You suggest testing a yungerman on something in learning to determine if he is fit. You seem to buy into the knowledge aspect of learning. That is certainly an important part of it. Far more important is the hasmodoh, where time is managed in a manner that reflects the dedication to learning Torah, and the implementation of the midos that make it obvious that the yungerman is a talmid chochom. The ability alone of being able to pass a test of data is far too little to make one a candidate to shteig at someone else’s expense, while delaying his own mitzvah to be mefarnes his family.
yitzchokm:
Kollel as a concept existed long ago. It had not been done in America until Rav Aharon Kotler. The institution of kollel in America was initiated by him.
This is the Gemora – Sotah 44a:
תנו רבנן אשר בנה אשר נטע אשר ארש לימדה תורה דרך ארץ שיבנה אדם בית ויטע כרם ואח”כ ישא אשה ואף שלמה אמר בחכמתו הכן בחוץ מלאכתך ועתדה בשדה לך אחר ובנית ביתך הכן בחוץ מלאכתך זה בית ועתדה בשדה לך זה כרם אחר ובנית ביתך זו אשה
Sounds quite clear that marriage is appropriate when there is readiness. We can divert this thread into a debate about kollel, which is clear violation of this gemora. The legend is that Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L was confronted with this as he was establishing the kollel system in America, and his response was that his project was a הוראת שעה. This was interpreted as his saying that it was necessary to plant Torah in America. One may question whether that הוראת שעה was intended to be extended 70 years later. But let us not digress. Marriage requires readiness, and the date on one’s birth certificate is not the most accurate method to assess that.
They take Bittul Torah seriously, and are willing to be Moseir Nefesh for it.
My difficulty with the Dems is that they have abandoned honesty in favor of power. The reality is that none of these minority communities has been harmed or limited in any way by Trump or his policies. Quite the contrary. Black unemployment has never been lower. Other minorities also benefited from Trump. The MSM has a false narrative, and these communities still drink that koolaid and the misinformation. Meanwhile, there are growing (in number and size) groups from within these communities who have woken up and smelled the coffee, and are discovering how much progress they have made specifically from Trump policies. Since Trump sings his praises louder than anyone else does, I would support such rallies and support.
As for the notion that such events can trigger anti-Jewish sentiments, baloney. This hate existed before, and it follows some pattern of increase and decrease that might be better addressed by a sociologist. And it will exist until it yields far more backlash than today’s stupid environment of bail reform.
GH:
Chazal never addressed the question you asked, because it is not a question. While יומם ולילה is the ideal, it does not require sitting in kollel. One can engage the day in Avodas Hashem with a combination of learning and implementing the mitzvos. The formula for that was never dictated to the Klal, as it cannot be determined effectively in this manner. Rather, individuals needed to decide for themselves, with guidance from elders (parents, rebbeiim) which direction was best for them.
It is the recent generations that made it “suicidal” for a bochur to say they will go to work after marriage. It also became unbecoming for a girl to not declare that she only wants a learning boy. So in previous generations, those with the aptitude to become farmers, roshei yeshivos, retailers, poskim, etc. did so, most often al taharas hakodesh. Our leaders are asleep at the switch by not making such guidance part of their positions. In reality, we need our frum lawyers, doctors, mechanics, bankers, clothing salesmen, etc. as much as we need our klai kodesh.
I am not driving bnai kollel to work. I am proclaiming that the responsibility for supporting their families is theirs, not yours or mine. If they have the means to remain in the bais hamedrash, that’s wonderful. And if they have the kishronos to become klai kodesh and become a leader in the Klal in whatever capacity, we can discuss the use of public funds for this (עשרה בטלנים). Someone who stays in kollel and accomplishes nothing more than having failed to support his family has committed a disservice to himself and family, to the public, and to HKB”H.
We are guilty for stigmatizing working and living an honest living of Avodas Hashem. גדול תלמוד שמביא לידי מעשה. We need Reb Chaim Kanievsky’s, and our gedolim and leaders. Face reality. Not everyone is built with those potentials. And many have other skills and talents that need to be used for the tzorchei tzibbur. Many of the greatest tzaddikim of generations, from tana’im to the recent past had businesses.
We do not need to “carve out” time for Torah. We need to live Torah 24/7. A piece is continuing learning, for which our chachomim guide us to be קובע עתים. For some this is several hours. For others, the time stretch may be less. ובלבד שיכוון את לבו.
Klug:
You wrote: “secondly why should all boys work?
You hate torah so much?”No. But not all boys should sit in the kollel either. Way too large a percentage of “kollel yungerleit” are doing little beyond warming a chair. They are there because they were indoctrinated with the idea that this is their obligation, and that they need to be “learning boys”. The girls were indoctrinated with the girls’ version of that myth.
All of this challenges the reality of what the Torah says, Certainly, the mitzvah of learning is applicable to every single Yid, and that this mitzvah is characterized in the posuk as והגית בו יומם ולילה. That is not open for debate. But the יומם ולילה is also explained by our Poskim as referring to קריאת שמע which is recited by day and by night. There is a rational explanation for all this. Many of us are required by Halacha to support our families. It does not say anywhere that we are to schnorr money from others. It does say multiple versions of the message יגיע כפך כי תאכל. There are among us those whose skills and talents are such that they can excel in various careers, in business, professions, manufacturing, retail, law, sciences, and, of course, Torah. No, I’m not equating Torah with the list of careers. But as a career option, it is one of those. It is truly a great one. But not everyone has the potential of succeeding. And applying the “learning boy” label just because one wants to is foolish. That’s like expecting a fish to climb a tree.
Boys should not all work nor all learn. Each individual should do what he is capable of doing. These broad brush strokes are unfair, and create situations that end up in conflict later. Kollelim are terrific for the one inclined to use the time wisely and efficiently. A yungerman lacking the requisite learning skills or passion will fail, probably sooner rather than later. That should not be done at the expense of the family, wife’s work, or the baalei tzedokoh.
Joseph:
I am not sure what you are implying with the quotes from Reb Moshe ZT”L. I was not suggesting otherwise. It is all over Shulchan Aruch that the ingredients to pasken a shailoh require knowledge of the facts. That’s why the Rov when asked about the milchig spoon that fell into the chicken soup needs to verify several matters, such as the temperature of the soup, whether the milchig spoon was used as such within the last 24 hours, the amount of soup, etc. Knowing the facts is critical, not just a good idea. And when confronting matters involving science, one must inquire about much of the relevant information (that is if the response is not coming from “ruach hakodesh”). Reb Moshe himself did this extensively, and there are numerous reports of his interactions with physicians.
Questions in politics also require knowledge of facts, and the responsible Rov has either learned them or must inquire. No, the Rov is not required to go to college and receive formal training. I don’t believe that this was suggested by anyone. The Rov, once knowing the metzius, can utilize his Torah knowledge to guide him.
The first quote introduced an element to the discussion that I don’t think was raised, that of not obeying the advice given by a Talmid Chochom. Of course, Reb Moshe is correct. But many of us have witnessed shailos being brought to a Talmid Chochom with intentionally omitted information, in order to color the psak to be more favorable to one direction. The halacha of שמע בין אחיכם is intended to ward off such biased situations, and to allow a psak to be based on Torah alone, not a predetermined one based on bias.
Joseph:
You mischaracterize my position. I have no issue neither with Torah Law nor with takanos of Rabbenu Gershom. Let me try and explain again, perhaps my earlier comment was not clear.
There are marriages that are dead. Some rabbonim and professionals can recognize these cases. Neither party wants a true marriage relationship. There are some people that the “institution” of marriage is convenient for them, and we can resort to imagination to guess what some of these might be. Regardless, there is no interest in returning to a relationship of shlaimus, positive emotion and affection, partnership, etc. The request for shalom bayis in these cases has no truth to it, and is exploited for the delay, often extended delay, that this produces. It is an abusive strategy, and in all likelihood continues a dynamic that was central to the relationship and a factor for the desire to terminate it.
Rabbenu Gershom contributed to some evening of the playing field. Yes, there are cases where a couple should be referred from the beis din to a professional. There are marriages that deteriorated to a “hopeless” state that turned around and had a happy ending. And batei din, understandably, are apt to do that with any situation in which either party requests shalom bayis, even if this is against all odds. I do not have an issue with the batei din. I have an issue with the men or women that use the tactic as part of their abusive pattern. We can call such men “m’agnim” and such women “m’agnos”. Neither are tolerable. And women often lose when they try this because the men can pursue heter meah rabbonim while the women have no such recourse.
How can you tell when the request for shalom bayis is sincere and when it’s an abusive tactic? Not always easy.
Abba:
Correct, that the social pressures often result in the husband running away, thereby further preventing a get. I haven’t encountered a case of name change, but suppose it is possible. It is often the husband feels he is not getting a fair shake, and that is a major ingredient in his refusal to give the get. But the refusal is a separate crime, and the decisions of court or BD are not valid excuses. As for the husband being left broke, it certainly does happen, but that is not the rule. The husband can document his income, and even with all the statutes about child support, they will not force a guy to be homeless. It gets sticky when the husband makes his money off the books, is capable of supporting nicely, yet hides behind the statute requirements. In BD, this is not as often the case because they are not afraid to ask and discover about the non-reported income.
Again, either side can be recalcitrant in completing an agreement, and the get should typically follow such agreement.
chash:
Our generation has witnessed a proliferation of ugly divorces. Instead of agreeing to part ways, and mediating a resolution to the division of property, financial agreements, and settling issues regarding children, there are bitter fights in batei din and courts. The toanim and lawyers are raking it in, and both sides lose, even if they win. It is not uncommon that others get involved and jump into the quicksand, including family members, friends, askanim, and rabbonim. The processes get so ugly that everyone emerges after something concludes full of mud and dirt. Bitter feelings can linger for years. It is nearly always a horrible picture.
We cannot always make a marriage last when one or both parties don’t want it. And we cannot push them to divorce when they don’t want. It is quite common that the ultimate wrench in the mechanism gets used. It’s called “I want shalom bayis”. It forces the hands of the dayanim to “give it one more try”. A common excuse for a m’again is “I don’t want to divorce, I want to work on the marriage”. And because of the halachos of gett me’usah, the beis din is limited in what it can do. To be fair, there are as many women who refuse to take a gett, using similar excuses. Prolonging the negotiation for the gett is close to universal, as is the running to court to create bigger problems from the smaller ones. In such situations, there is an option for men of the heter me’ah rabbonim, so the women don’t get the edge in resisting the ending of the marriage.
Divorce is painful for anyone, and having support before, during, and after is simply reasonable. When support transforms into advocacy with advice to increase the level of fight and bitterness, it becomes a liability, no longer an asset. I wish more people understood this.
Lastly, we all witness people being brought into a picture late in the game. They are expected to help resolve some issues that have lingered until that point. Without knowing all sides and all the facts, their intentions to help might be noble, but are more apt to be disruptive. I have seen this personally many times.
Joseph:
And I know of cases where the detention was ultimately successful. Perhaps the intervention by the State Department has lost its effectiveness, or it has not become policy for us to intervene.
Avi:
The tzaddik whose advice comes via Ruach Hakodesh can freely provide it even without being asked. After all, he knows whatever he needs to know anyway. In practice, one is free to believe that his rebbe possesses Ruach Hakodesh (I am not engaging in the debate of whether or not Ruach Hakodesh exists in our times). But one cannot be certain that this is the modus operandi at any specific time and place. So when seeking such advice and guidance, the rebbe must be presented with a carefully deliberated question. If the situation is medical, how can one seek such advice from the rebbe, who was presumably never in medical school and is totally without training? The obligation is either to come prepared with the needed information, or for the rebbe to inquire of the experts until he is comfortable that he has the full picture.
Quite many poskim delve deeply into subject matter before giving advice or paskening a shailoh. Reb Moshe Feinstein inquired in detail before concluding about anything that entered the realm of science. Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach studied for hundreds of hours before emerging as the prime posek for shailos concerning electricity on Shabbos.
The strength of a psak is directly dependent on the strength and accuracy of the shailoh asked.
Abba:
If we are fortunate enough, the m’agein will travel to Israel. Once the information is transmitted there, there is an option that has been used on Americans to arrest, prevent from leaving the country, etc. until the gett is given. I know of this happening. I am not expert in the gett me’usah matter, but it has apparently been addressed by mainstream and recognized poskim who consider these gittin completely valid.
Haimy:
You base your accusation on a generalization, and that is neither fair nor accurate.
The climate is that there are people in the world that are evil and rotten. The couple that has not finalized the severance of their marriage (whether by divorce or gett) may not involve anyone that is evil. The process requires a resolution of the affairs of division. It can be either party that is stubborn and will not resolve the issues. The stats are really close to 50-50 on this. When the wife who wants to restrict visitation or makes accusations to the court does not receive the gett with these other issues are pending is generally reasonable in that, and it is unfair and dishonest to call him a m’again.
And there are also m’agnim who are deserving of the showers of disgrace. We may wonder whether this treatment is warranted or effective. The system is not good. But I can safely state that a sizable percentage of people labeled m’agnim are not guilty. True chessed verachamim is about participating in a negotiation process, and not digging in the heels and trying to destroy the other party. It is also about the refraining from joining in the conflict. Too many times, there are others, ostensibly with noble intentions, who take a side, and contribute to the fight instead of helping to bring about resolution.
RE:
The Yaavetz in his siddur has a discussion, and he expounds on it at length in the She’ilas Yaavetz. The siddur provides the reference. If my recall is at all accurate, the issue is whether we are referring to the past or the present, and what is the intent of the brocho.
GH et al:
Polls are handicapped. It is costly to conduct a poll that is broad enough to use its statistics to infer to a population. There are a few organizations that do large scale polling. But the cost of doing this cannot be easily borne by small organizations, and some of the media reported polls fall into this category.
Next, a representative sampling is a huge challenge. Polling in a blue state will say less than enough about an election where the match up of the two parties is the subject. There is also an assumption that the individuals being polled know enough, but perhaps not too much about the compare and contrast between the candidates. There are many who respond to pollsters by telling them what they wish to hear, or simply echoing what they have been hearing within their circles of communication. That might not reliably project how that same individual would behave in the voting booth.
In summary, the non-scientific polls are completely meaningless. Even the larger ones do not have the needed reliability to be predictors. They feed discussion, but talking about sports is at least as useful.
First reaction to this idea: “sheker mit schlimazzel”.
Spray painting his window is destructive damage. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Deflating a tire will irritate the owner of the car, but will insure that his car remains there longer – counter productive.
Leave the note, and feel free to block him in – that space belongs to you.
Hachnosas Orchim, according to the Sefer Hachaim (brother of the Maharal) and the Maharil is not fulfilled by having a guest who comes to your door seeking a meal. the Maharil adds that if the guest is poor, one does not fulfill the mitzvah at all. It is tzedokoh and chesed, both precious mitzvos. But Hachnosas Orchim is done by proactively inviting the guest – as Avrohom Avinu did sitting outside seeking a guest to invite. And inviting even the gvir, the wealthy person is the mission of Hachnosas Orchim. It should not be confused with tzedokoh and chesed, also beautiful and precious mitzvos.
Check these references, and then weigh in again about the notion that the mitzvah is for the lonely and downtrodden.
Outside of referring to the phenomena of OTD, there are precious few efforts at assessing the situation, nor has the focus been to study the issue from a sociological perspective. I have yet to read any generalizations about the subject, whether in Israel or in America that have any empirical value. We know it is happening, as we witness it continually. There is certainly a place for research to be done. Meanwhile, the focus of the Klal has been to create strategies to rescue these kids, whether by programs, professionals, askanim, etc., and there is much praise to heap on those engaged in these efforts. With all the tendencies to create groups, every such kid is an individual, with their own experience and issues. The one size fits all does not work, and every successful effort has its failures.
Nice question. I am more curious how one can answer than what that answer is.
Everyone is correct about the need to have the rachmonus and extend invitations to those who are downtrodden and lonely. I would reject the notion that anyone here feels differently. The issue that makes this a debate is the situation when the guest brings things to the family table that are not appropriate for the environment. We all have a chiyuv to make the environment of the home something Shabbosdig, appropriate for the chinuch of the children, etc. If a guest takes things in a different direction, we must rethink whether this is a good idea. Which obligation takes precedence, the one to invite guests that are in need or the protections for the home that are central to our Torah lifestyle. One can hear arguments in either direction. The position not to have such guests is not because one minimizes the need or is heartless.
Sam:
I agree with you. As someone who does not own or run a school, I share your position. But the administrator and menahel of the school take a very different position. I understand them even though I disagree.
These discussions get vibrant, heated, or comical. I personally read these only for the humor, because the rest of it is completely useless.
In reality, there are many possible causes for the breakups of engagements and marriages. The value of discussing these is to know what not to do. But these forums are never diagnostic for any specific case. And it is often that well meaning people claim to know a lot about a couple while they truly know almost nothing.
I can easily list a few dozen variables that have not appeared in any comments before this. Unless we divert the focus to identifying the “what not to do”, the time spent in typing will have been a total waste.
Marriage expectations have evolved as the culture has changed. The support for the battles to dissolve marriages has also grown rapidly. The toughness that people have in approaching their own marriage crises in which there are demands for change and resistance to them has also escalated. Yes, there are mismatches. We also have myths about “learning boys” that are hard to change. We enter marriage poorly prepared, and sometimes with very distorted views of what it should be. Parents interfere. Forums of social interaction contribute handsomely to support ending marriages. Divorce is less stigmatized. And the list goes on and on. This is just a small sample.
It would be nice to facilitate a connection to speak. It cannot be done behind the anonymity here. Likewise, I would be horrified to see commenters using this forum to advertise for attorneys or toanim.
It matters where the proceedings will take place. Batei Din are not apt to accept a case that is not in their geographic area. And not all lawyers will be able to practice in another state, and often refuse to take cases outside of their local area. Specify. has the case been brought before a beis din yet? Are there any professionals involved? What is the history – has there been a serious effort to reconcile, are there legal matters in play? Many questions. The question posed is way too vague.
bsharg2:
It would be unfair to minimize the multiple forms of tzaar from physical abuse. But i think your comment is unrealistic, and certainly nothing you could suggest to others.
There are other forms of abuse that are intolerable. There may be dynamics to a marriage that help make an abusive marriage, even if physical abuse is absent, unliveable.
There are also times when even a non-abusive marriage is a horrible experience for one or both parties, and these are potentially deadly for the kids. The concept of “staying together for the kids” sounds really nice and kind, but is so often toxic.
As much as we should revere the institution of marriage, and go to extreme lengths to protect it, we must be aware that it is sometimes best terminated – hence a parsha of gittin in the Torah. Reaching the determination that this is the best direction may be a complex issue, but it is not a good idea to suggest that the only way to divorce is if there was physical abuse.
Catch:
A dose of reality is needed here. Generalizations won’t help much, but observing trends might help a bit. Chinuch has suffered yeridas hadoros, just as every other aspect of our lives. That won’t change on its own, and our mission is to slow the process, one rebbe, one child, and one class at a time.
Motives for anything can vary. Find me two workers at a grocery store, and I can probably show you two different set of reasons for choosing such employment. Chinuch is no different. Yes, there are many who choose chinuch because they wish to remain klai kodesh. If this excludes the passion for chinuch, the range of needed skills, etc., we have a problem. And such scenarios are unfortunately true. It can result from the message imbued in our yeshivos that doing anything but serving as klai kodesh is against the Ratzon Hashem. It is sad that this is patently untrue, and the Torah states this multiple times.
It is likewise an unforgivable tragedy that we have allowed chinuch to deteriorate into a career without adequate compensation, subjecting those who enter it into a world of poverty and disgrace. No, the kavod given to a rebbe does not convert into grocery dollars or pay his utility bills. the financial crunch of yeshivos is way bigger than the comment fields in the YWN-CR, and the brains needed to address that are greater than what we can offer.
I am not siding with anyone here, not pro-rebbe, not anti-rebbe. There are way too many variables here, and the efforts to malign an entire career or group of people are pitiful and pathetic. Dumbing ourselves into denial that the rosy scene of chinuch is live and well is not a better choice.
Lastly, assuming that every rebbe spends their spare time thinking about your son is undue optimism. It would be nice, and a few phone calls to report nachas would also be nice. Some do that. Many do not. They may be unable to do so, since they are busy with household chores, unable to hire cleaning help, or doing the shopping. They may worrying how to make ends meet,, taking care of their own children. Reality is all we have. Fantasy may be a nice leisure activity, but we cannot stay there for too long. Chinuch is in real trouble, and all of us are somehow part of the problem.
The abominable message implied is that the marketed segulah, mekubal, etc. is the authority over the brochos and hashpa’os. Therefore, one must patronize it/him, and provide financial support back that. I cannot see the element of ratzon Hashem in this.
None of our Gedolei Yisroel guided us to fall prey to these forms of marketing. yet, it appears that some, if not many, of today’s Gedolim have their names and photos attached to these advertisements. I believe they are innocently supporting the fund raising for the organizations that are worthy tzedokos. But I am still offended by humans considering themselves the ones to choose where hashpa’os from HKB”H should go.
GH:
Have you used some sort of literary license to interpret the 7 years of Yaakov’s work? And Rivkah being busy with Yitzchok’s camels, what’s your point? Seforim tell us a lot about these events, but what you are sharing here is bizarre. What are your sources, and what on Earth do you mean?
Joseph:
Because I am witness to so many cases of dead marriages that cannot be resuscitated, after affairs, outright abuse of various forms, and multiple failures at reconciliation. The spouse proposing this has usually approached therapists in the past, and presented their case in the likes of, “My spouse is sick and I am healthy. Fix him/her, and then we will talk.”
The sincerity you imply is actually uncommon. I agree that any chance to restore a marriage should be considered a worthwhile investment. But the motive needs to be honest. In the vast majority of cases, it isn’t. I speak from extensive experience. You don’t need to believe an anonymous blogger. That’s why I suggested that one ask any other askan, dayan, to’en, and therapist who deals with this subject.
As for the unilateral demand for divorce, just ponder this. marriage requires two partners with a shared goal to be happy together. When someone doesn’t want to be married to you, you will find it impossible to be married to them. For additional support for this concept, check out the posuk in Mishlei – כמים הפנים לפנים כן לב האדם לאדם.
Klug:
You make a valid point. The word “agunah” is being abused, and applied with inaccurate criteria. It never referred to a situation involving divorce. It was only used in Shas and Shulchan Aruch in reference to a wife whose husband is missing, and there is inadequate basis to establish death as a fact. I have grown to tolerate the misuse regarding a get, without forgetting that this is already a step away from truth.
Today, it is used universally to refer to any woman that has not received a get. This ignores the reasons for it. I am well acquainted with many cases where a settlement of the affairs has not been reached, and it is foolish to proceed to the get until this is completed. Ask any dayan. to’en, lawyer, or other askan who has involvement. One would hope that the matters at hand can be resolved easily, but that’s wishful thinking. It is commonplace that divorcing women seek to deny the children from their father. Beis Din may opine on this, but they have no enforcement authority, nor is a Beis Din recognized for these matters by the courts. Men typically seek to get away with minimal payments of child support. Either can demand return of gifts, full ownership of the house, and hosts of other demands. It is not infrequent that one of the parties demands a payoff of a sizable sum of money in order to grant or to agree to receive a get. These hanging issues can create substantial delay. I have heard countless cases where one of the parties responds to the hazmonos to Beis Din, and states that he/she does not want to divorce at all, and wants to engage in treatment to restore shalom bayis. This is a proverbial delay that guarantees nothing happens for quite some time. And when it comes to these issues, men and women are equally to blame. Either way, calling these women agunos is inaccurate, and thrusts the word even farther from its Torah intent. The situation could be pitiful, and either party might be the victim.
CA:
Yes.
AZ:
The “program” does not condone advice. It is recognized that the members are not professionals. What does occur, officially, is the sharing of suggestions, as I stated earlier, the likes of, “This helped me.”
In the addiction field. therapists can easily fill a caseload, and are not necessarily pushing to increase the clientele. But it is widely recognized that the support systems, such as the 12 step groups, do not constitute therapy, and that professional help is still needed much of the time.
I do disagree with your contention that it is little beyond a replacement or substitution of dependencies. If that was your experience, thanks for sharing. The support is invaluable, and plays a greater role in the lives of the newbies to recovery. Even the veterans with longevity of recovery have the times where they need to connect to those who can offer support. If you step back and look at life, the infant is completely dependent on others for its existence and survival. As the child grows and matures, that dependency diminishes. And when the older years are reached, the dependencies once again creep back in. Recovery can also require periods of greater need for support. That’s not a substitute dependency. It’s a mature and responsible way to deal with a problem.
You have a valid point that individuals need to give themselves credit for their efforts to arrest the addiction and maintain sobriety. One does not need to minimize the benefits of the support systems.