The little I know

Moshe:

Teaching is a job that cannot be measured by classroom time. There is preparation, there are other aspects of management that occur outside of class time, and there is an overall responsibility that places the teacher/rebbe on call 24/7. I agree that we have observed many entering chinuch as a default, having zero training or skills for the job. And you are correct, that we should have merit pay, with only secondary value to tenure. It is tragic that people go into chinuch because it is their version of being klai kodesh, basically an irrational fear of all other forms of work. That’s hiding behind religion which is antithetical to genuine spirituality and connection to Hashem. It also denigrates all others who make their parnosoh doing lots of other things, most often jobs for which they are appropriate. That is not attributable to a derech of Torah.

Firstly, it is remarkable that anyone knows what someone’s financial matzav really is. It was alarming that the administrators negotiating with me for the tuition contract reached conclusions about my income that were so badly off that the misjudgments were extreme. Some asked about family size, most did not care. All inferred that my wage was almost 3 times what it really was. All assumed I took vacations, owned an expensive car and a home in the Catskills, all of which were untrue. All assumed that I was able to access money from my parents and in-laws, also completely baseless.

Before suggesting I pay more tuition, please have a bit on knowledge of what really goes on in my checkbook. Till then, busy yourself with the yeshiva budget, not false assumptions about mine.

CA:

The dilemma described in the OP doesn’t hit me quite that way. In my mind, the Torah is the absolute truth. There can be no other system.

Imagine we had a world where the Torah did not exist (obviously not reality). It would be incumbent upon us to establish a moral code, since without one, the world would quickly deteriorate into chaos. However, the inherent bias we have to ourselves would guide us and influence us to create a code that was somehow pleasurable to us. The restrictions we know of would never emerge from a code that is based only on our own thinking.

So the basics of morality must emanate from a spiritual source. What follows is that there can be no true conflict between Torah and morality. What I need to take from this is that anything that is moral has its root in Torah somewhere. Hillel derived a general rule from Torah. He proceeded to instruct the individual to pursue the details and related values through Torah study.

n0m:

“The statement you quoted is not a mishna. ”

It appears prominently in my copy of Pirkei Avos, 5:21. Does yours omit it? And why should your learning boy wait until 25 to get married if he is ready? Who is your support for your halacha on this?

n0m:

The divorce spike in the frum community involves several causal factors, and generalizing to all or most of them would not be accurate. But there are several issues that do appear rather often, and are worth noting. Among them is a commonly heard statement from one of a couple in crisis. When questioned, “Why did you get married?”, a frequent response is, “Because all my friends were getting married.” The foolishness is that marriage needs to be pursued when the individual is ready for it. The readiness of one’s peers should have zero bearing on the decision. That’s why I look somewhat askance to all the statements reported in the name of Gedolim about the age for marriage. Firstly, if one wants to look for a recommendation, the Mishna in Pirkei Avos openly states בן שמונה עשרה לחופה. As far as when someone is ready, that is a totally individual matter. Among my sons, one was ready at 19, others at 20 or 21.

“Kollel in a week learns what solid single guys cover in a weekend.”

I have no clue whether this is fact or fantasy. But I do suggest that we return to what the Torah tells us in order to determine whether this makes any difference.

I would like to hear any source anywhere that our accomplishments in this world are evaluated by the amount of Torah knowledge we accumulate. At least one? Actually, we are interrogated upon arrival in Beis Din Shel Maaloh, and only one question addresses Torah study. That question is: קבעת עתים לתורה. Nowhere does it suggest that we will be tested on Chumash, gemora, or halacha. We are not even providing a number of hours/minutes learned. Only whether we built in Torah into our lives. The amount of data that was downloaded into our brains is not even part of the formula. Oh, you say it is? Provide any reference to support that.

Sorry to all, but I am bothered by the obsession with levush. The subject is not meaningless. We all know that the external has an effect on the internal. Yet, the visual presentation is a terribly inaccurate measure of someone’s true greatness. It is one thing to seek a uniform dress code to avoid the competitive issue, though that is often expected more in girls than boys. In my bochur days, there was nearly zero attention paid to the subject. And my generation, those on my class and the classes above and below me include quite a number of Roshei Yeshivos, Megidei Shiurim, Mechabrei Seforim, etc. All of these dressed in normal garb, not black pants with white shirts.

The focus on the external detracts from the focus on the internal, and that devastates the entire young generation today. The sheer number of adults in today’s population that are so superficial in their Avodas Hashem is staggering, despite the chumros of yoshon and bedikas tola’im. And the internal weaknesses translate into a failure to imbue the children to grow in Ahavas Hashem. I am on a front where many of these problems are exposed to me, and I am not presenting a theory. If any yeshiva invested as much effort into helping each and every talmid develop and nurture the cheishek to learn and follow mitzvos, as is given to the discipline over the dress code, our community would look vastly different. Kol Torah would not be measured in decibels but in the pervasive passion in learning.

How about a chosson or kallah teacher that has serious marital problems?

Haimy:

You wrote: “An experienced shadchan can be very helpful at this stage.” Alert!

This “experienced shadchan” needs NOT to be the one behind this shidduch. There is an inherent bias, that upon the sealing of the shidduch, there is a money transaction. An uninterested third party has the luxury of being able to be more objective. I have observed quite a few shadchanim engage in frank lies in order to pad their pocket (sometimes other motives, not always money). A shadchan may and should charge for their services. And we have all heard the famous quite (I saw it stated by Ran Yaakov Emdin) that שדכן is ראשי תיבות for שקר דובר כסף נוטל. But to force a shidduch to completion with the wrong bases for doing so is unfair, perhaps even criminal.

Gratefulblac:

Your test for the learning boy is mostly academic. And that is a dangerous pitfall. I said this before, and it is fact, tragic but true. The best “learners” might not be the best in midos, and are not guaranteed any more than the “not learners” to make a good husband. We might debate why this is true, but the outcome of that debate will not change the candidate being considered for a shidduch.

Next, the motivation to get married without any form of a life plan, such as career, parnosoh, where to live, etc. is highly questionable. I have met some rather unhappy people who admitted they got married because their friends were getting married. Do you eat when someone else is hungry? If someone wants to spend time in kollel learning, then there must be a plan to make sure it can be sustained. Where to live, finances, plans for future… Turning around after a bunch of years of good learning and seeking to enter the working world is a huge challenge. It is most probable that this yungerman has zero training in any manner that would facilitate entry into a career at anything but a low pay starting job – while there is a family at home that needs better parnosoh.

The Gemora (Brachos 36b) tells us the debate between Rabi Yishmael, who stated that one should work and use the rest of his time for learning Torah, and Rabi Shimon bar Yochai who said that one should learn all the time, and their work will be done by others. The Gemora goes on to say that many did as Rabi Yishmael instructed, and succeeded. Many did like Rabi Shimon bar Yochai and failed. Interestingly, this Gemora does not conclude with a psak halacha – who is correct. And the reason is obvious. For one person, Rabi Yishmael’s prescription is appropriate. For another, it is incumbent to follow Rabi Shimon bar Yochai. Giving the wrong prescription is a terrible thing to do. And it seems that the majority of people needed to follow Rabi Yishmael. Many that signed up for Rabi Shimon’s advice failed. Is your “learning boy” the one that Rabi Shimon bar Yochai wants to spend his life learning?

n0m:

I think you did not get my sixth point. My message was that the midos and Yiras Shomayim are not correlated with learning, even strong learning. It should be, but it isn’t. The increase in Torah knowledge has not created a healthy and happy home. But midos tovos and Yiras Shomayim does.

The familial relationships issue is huge. It achieved notoriety years ago, and one would believe that we learned lessons since then. But, alas, nothing was learned. I hear frequent situations of girls or boys who refuse to leave their parents in order to connect to their spouses. Regardless of the excuses given, there is still a Torah guide that is not disputable: על כן יעזב איש את אביו ואת אמו ודבק באשתו. The criteria the Torah places on the married person is to disconnect from parents to cleave unto the the spouse. Yet, there are countless cases of parents who insist on maintaining a controlling interest in their married children, often citing their financial support as reasons for their being followers. And the incoming boy or girl is frequently frightened of this, and should be. Mechutanim can have contests who gets the children to be by them for Shabbos, Yom Tov, who chooses names for grandchildren, and countless other interferences. It’s hard enough for newlyweds to solve their disagreements. Swallowing the additional ingredients from parents and in-laws is cruel and unusual punishment.

Lastly, the extreme erudition in Shas indicates wonderful skill in learning and retaining information. It is as correlated with midos and Yiras Shomayim as lesser degrees of retained learning.

There is a story related from Rav Chaim Vital whose talmid died young. The talmid came to his rebbe in a dream, and reported that the BD Shel Maaloh decreed gehinom for him. He said he could not understand why. He mastered Shas and Halacha, he was well versed in Kabbalah, bith the knowledge and the practice. His sentence was inconsistent with his understanding of his life. His rebbe responded, “At home you were abusive. You caused enormous amounts of pain to your wife, and your children, in turn, suffered as well.” המבין יבין.

While all may be consoled that i am not interested in entering politics, nor will I ever be party to create new legislation, I feel differently about our crime laws. Anyone involved in a violent crime (needs to be defined) can be apprehended in the middle of the action, and deadly force is an option (similar to the halacha of rodef). Someone committing a street crime of mugging can be shot, and the killing of the criminal should not only not be prosecuted, but it should be heralded as heroic. In practical terms, this would not be as easy as it sounds, for a variety of reasons. But the attitude that we should declare open season on violent crime is praiseworthy.

So, in my view, whether the cop could have somehow subdued the criminal is a moot point. He had a suspect resisting arrest, stealing a weapon, etc. He should be dead meat, and the officer should be given an award.

This entire matter is unrelated to racism or police brutality. It’s about a thug element in our society that exploits vocabulary to permit themselves the privilege to destroy, steal, and be violent.

Charlie:

Yes, you encountered a bad apple. And such bad apples should be identified and weeded out from wherever they are found. Whether these people are cops, politicians, journalists, sanitation workers, etc. That does not define police, and you know it. It’s just an agenda that the Dems embrace because of the craving to create a state of dependency and a massive number of guaranteed votes to stay in power.

Meanwhile, you have certainly had colleagues who were from minorities who were accomplished in their careers, and upstanding citizens. If the inner city minorities invested in their lives instead of their current choices, many would make it. But they don’t. And we have voices in the political world who cry for them, insisting that it is the burden of the hard working taxpayers to insure that they have the luxuries of the world. You and I need to provide them with bank accounts, all the latest devices, and free everything wherever they choose to be. Why? Because of their racial status? We need to drop the entry scores for advanced education to attract minorities? This gets more bizarre all the time.

There is a racial divide, and the elements needed to minimize that are not entitlements. The minorities themselves need to expend efforts in this. But they want you and I to rescue them by putting them into greater dependency.

Lastly, I have the constitutional right to believe anything I wish about minorities, and I will resist the thought police telling me how to think. I will not consider an applicant for a job based on race or color, only on qualification and merit. And if my employees are all white, that does NOT indicate that I am racist.

besalel:

I am not against the two state solution in theory. I am afraid of it for practical reasons, and here is where experience speaks loudly.

* The Palis do not really want their own state. They want Israel’s state.
* The Palis lack the ability to govern anything. There is a huge body of history to this. Nothing got better for them when Israel granted them autonomy.
* The Palis are approaching the entire subject with a unique attitude. They feel that they are entitled, and that Israel owes them something. They feel they should get whatever they want just because they want it.
* The Palis have become adept at wearing suits, speaking clearly, and pretending to be sophisticated. But they are not more than the cat that was trained to serve as a waiter. These are dedicated terrorists who do not deserve the dignity of diplomacy. It is futile to conduct any negotiations with them. They have an almost perfect record of lying and breaking all commitments.
* Israel took this land from Jordan when it was attacked. The Palis did not exist as an entity. They have no history prior to the labeling by Yasser Arafat y”sh.
* Giving them a sovereignty just legitimizes their having a military, and that will be used for terror and violence, not defense.
* The same animals that you suggest should have a state are sworn to an agenda of wiping Israel off the map. They teach it to their children, and they divert monies away from their economy and citizens to terror.

Now, you still want to push the two state solution? On paper, it’s sensible. On the ground, it is a powder keg. I have not discovered anyone there that can be trusted.

besalel:

You have a point. But the logic is refuted by fact and history. The same Arabs that you seek to give the privilege of voting want to destroy the state. They prove this over and over again, so this is not just some racist thinking. It’s pure experience. The Arabs actually have members int he Knesset. Look at their track record. They are engaged in constant acts of treason and support terror. And they have their vote. I admit there is no easy answer to this. But to offer your enemies the weapons with which they will destroy you is at least as stupid. Israel has enough enemies outside its borders. None inside are needed.

Here we go again, second guessing HKB”H. There is no one among us who knows exactly what the reason for COVID was, and trying to make one up, even if logical, is a futile effort at claiming to be greater than one truly is.

The census is aimed at counting all people, and nothing to do specifically with Jews. So, stop it.

There is no exact count of how many people attended the Siyum Hashas. All we really have is a collection of estimates, with input of some numbers, and the people from both law enforcement and media who claim to have expertise in estimating crowd sizes. So these numbers do not matter at all. I have no way to know what caused the mageifa, and I do not think it is respectful or Torah consistent to claim that one does know. All we should be doing is to cope with the situation, and to self-examine to see where we can better ourselves.

Doing my best:

You’re not doing your best, at all. You are still accepting the choice to live a life of violence because of oppression. I reject that totally.

What I observe is that a black victim of violence or murder is the awaited green light to gather in large groups, and behave like violent animals. And there are pathetically enough people to tell us innocent victims that we have to tolerate it. NO! The reality is that some young blacks don’t want to make it in life. They want the government to gift them with their creature comforts and pleasures. No, I am not generalizing to race. I am talking about the rioters. There are quite a few African Americans who abandoned that life of dependency and hedonism, and pushed themselves to get educated. And they made it. And they are wonderful people. And working along side them was no different to me than working alongside whites, or any other racial, religious, or ethnic group. Not a single employer I ever had was in the slightest discriminating. The color-blind situation was successful for all. Everyone thrived, and the work was done satisfactorily or better.

But when someone chooses not to work, to live off handouts, to demand equality (like the imbecilic gibberish that AOC and her ilk blabbered), we have a problem. It is a cultural problem. This silly voice wants someone who doesn’t work to have all the luxuries of those that do. Why? I work hard for my money, and I give a proportion to tzedokoh far above my means. For what reason must I tolerate an angry black destroying my livelihood? Not one that is remotely acceptable on any moral standard.

Stop excusing this. The greatest volume of their “anger” is not real. They fail themselves, and want society to pay for that. Not my tax dollar. Get up off your ******, get jobs, have intact families, go to school and get educated, and you’ll make it. The exposure to police is not in the slightest related to police being racist. It’s the involvement in crime. Stop morphing the facts into something that fits the liberal narrative. It’s flagrantly dishonest, and nobody wants to formulate opinions based on lies.

Edited

The OTD subject is quite complex, and the efforts to shoot simple explanations or general advice are, perhaps well intended, lame efforts. It is presumptuous and more often false to point a finger at Internet and shmiras einayim issues. The rush to find his Rov is frankly ridiculous, as it is strange to expect that he actually has one that can impact him. So let’s try some generalizations that are actually valid, and seek avenues for remedy.

First question. When we say “Off the Derech”, we must then offer a definition that identifies the issue and is broad enough to include most who are OTD. What is the “Derech”? Until we answer that, we only know the individual is leading his life in a different direction. Maybe he is making more sense than we are, and the problem is us. And we should not forget that our “Derech” includes an awful lot of frank hypocrisy.

Second question. We each have a philosophy in life, and it guides us in making choices, especially those about lifestyle and beliefs. What is his? How does it differ from ours?

Third question. What do we know about experiences in his life that contributed to his making such choices?

What we do know is that he has chosen to abandon the “Derech” in which he was raised. For some reason, it has been experienced as painful enough to him that escape was his preferred defense. Trauma? Systemic hypocrisy? No, it is unlikely that he is seeking to run into the welcoming arms of secularism or free expression of taavos. He is running away. What is he running from?

It is a sad generalization that an overwhelming percentage of our rabbonim are ill equipped to handle such issues. A erudite pilpul based on Chovas Halevavos would be interesting to many of us, but likely to bore him. Few rabbonim have experience in connecting with someone shut down.

Lastly, many of us, particularly the best intentioned rabbonim, would jump to intellectual arguments to convince him that he has made bad choices in “going OTD”. Such efforts are a total waste. It is an exception that such escape occurs for logical reasons (as noted by an earlier commenter). Nearly every single situation involves the emotion, not the intellect. The Rov experienced in this might be effective. The best magid shiur, Rosh Yeshiva, pulpit Rov, etc. is unlikely to have such skills and talents, as they are less often needed for their positions.

Someone mentioned Reb Elya Brudny. He is one that has a huge heart and incredible sensitivity besides amazing insight. He is also inundated with tzoras Yisroel, and accessing him, and others in similar positions may be difficult. There are others that share Rav Brudny’s maalos, but are busy with Klal needs. And much is needed to provide the guidance for the trip back to the “Derech”. And the individual needs to want to return. And until there is desire, all efforts are futile.

So America has a problem of systemic racism. And what exactly do you propose to do about it? Attitude change occurs slowly, but a long series of events. These outbursts of violent crime and destruction have never succeeded. Nor have legislation attempts. The reality is that this has nothing to do with social justice. That’s just an excuse that Democrats and similar liberal idiots blabber, with the hope that they sound progressive, educated, and focused on altruistic things. Meanwhile, there is an undeniable truth. It is that this excuse permits the destruction of innocent business owners, innocent police, and anyone else these animals can access to rob, burn, and maim. And there is no social cure for crime like this, besides bringing the severity of consequences upon the perpetrators. The completely immoral and probably unconstitutional bail reform that sends violent criminals back to repeat their behavior renders the criminal justice system almost disabled. There are other cities that had their gun owning citizens protecting the businesses. Rioters stayed away. These thugs are true domestic terrorists. I would never, ever expect legislation to curb such terror. Remember that terrorists do not respect the law. But they will run away from a gun aimed at them. And a few corpses of these rats might help make the message heard. That’s deterrence, not the gobbledygook platitudes the NYC mayor and similar imbeciles utter.

Those who truly want social justice would work with the system, not burn it down.

Unless one refuses to subscribe to morality, the actions leading to the death of George Floyd were the wrong solution to the problem of his being uncooperative. Yes, there should be charges filed against all those involved. I see some commenters above have convicted all of them, while others exonerate them. I say, let this go to trial, and let the court system deal with that. The angry Antifa and others have zero right to victimize anyone else.

The riots may emanate from rage. But the victims of this are innocent. The police in other cities have nothing to do with the death, and burning their vehicles is an unacceptable crime.

All that is really happening here is that the animals have somehow gotten out of their cage. No amount of reasoning, not from the President, not the governors, not even the victim’s family will impress them. These chayos simply declare anyone else open season for them to do what they want. Rioting and looting are acts of terror. I am shocked that the politicians are still dancing around this as if there is legitimacy to it. Police need to show up in full riot gear, and anyone that loots is target practice for deadly weapons. That may stop them.

The experience varies per situation. Women and men experience it differently, as well. No one thinks it’s pleasant. It is only expected to be the lesser of the evils.

When i read a paragraph that contains the word vaccine and the word autism, I cringe. I might entertain discussions about other negative effects, and would still insist on hearing the conclusions of the experts that reviewed reliably scientific information. But we are struggling to find that here. The vaccine-autism issue was based on fabricated data, and passed off as science. I have done research before, and am familiar with the trust that must be present to consider any research useful. Meanwhile, theories were written to explain something that has no basis in truth. And the oilem goilem hears something like this and runs with it. So we have large crowds of believers that these vaccines are the conspiracy of government and big pharm, decorated with anecdotes, and enhanced by the anti-science movements.

I well understand caution with introducing a vaccine into a system. It needs to have demonstrated safety and effectiveness. It must also be needed for individual and public health. Understood. And the outbreaks that can affect others negatively must be addressed by the medical field as well as the government that attends to public safety. But if we allow the introduction of hysteria into the scene, and we give credence to utter fiction, we are set up for doom.

The COVID-19 is still new, and has been studied comparatively little in the short time of its appearance in the science world. We might choose to be cautious about vaccinating, as long term results have yet to be observed. I would not be so paranoid to project another conspiracy, with as little truth as the last ones.

This subject is quite complex. The yeshiva or seminary continues to have expenses. It would be nice if they could meet them and avoid potentially serious consequences. Yet, the services they sell to bring in money to cover those expenses are no longer being sold. I am excluding those that continue to conduct classes via phone, zoom, etc. It is of questionable morality to be able to charge for services not being provided.

This pandemic has caught us all by surprise, and no one had a mechanism in place to cope with it. It is not just the schools that are being hit, but the parents are also, to some degree, affected by loss of job or income. Now with these families grappling to find a way to make their day to day bills, we have no hesitation to insist they fund yeshivos that are not teaching their children? It is similarly painful to see the flood of fundraisers in the news pages of this site and others. They are among the disruptive popups, and are also emails and similar requests. It is sad to note that there appears to be a contest who can make their fundraising ad more pitiful to direct tzedokoh funds there. Even sadder is that there are so many families thrust into poverty, with jobs lost, parents niftarim, with yesomim all over. This is a troubling time for Klal Yisroel. And no one will jump in to help address the financial part besides Acheinu Bais Yisroel. But I wish those doing this fund raising would realize that the people they are addressing and begging no longer have the resources to help much. Yes, the desperation increases, but applying pressure on those who also don’t have is not the answer.

We all want our mosdos to remain open, and to return to their holy tafkid of harbotzas Torah. Our aniyei amcho share that desire, without the means. The pressure needs to be directed elsewhere.

GH’ DMB, and others:

Medical decisions need to be made by those possessing the expertise. The treatment of an individual patient is the person’s physician. Those involving the public reside with the medical authorities designated by the government (fed, state, local). If my personal physician chooses a specific treatment for me, even if that is something off label or experimental, that is his/her responsibility. An outsider has no business interfering in my doctor-patient relationship. Those dealing with the public have a different responsibility. They are beholden to the scientific approach that sets standards and requirements to approve treatments.

Yes, there is a political agenda in the background. That is as relevant to Trump pumping things that have not yet passed the rigors of scientific study, as it is to the brain dead Squad and other Dems yelling at every single step the POTUS takes. Yes, the sheer amount of lies, coverups, and misrepresentation of these Dems is astounding. But the final words need to come from the experts, and these do not include politicians.

All the collections of anecdotal data may be interesting and promising. But without controlled study, we don’t have something that can be recommended. Do the studies.

Charlie:

Absolutely correct. The lead on this issue must come from the scientific experts. And both of us have referenced the rigors of true scientific study, and that outcomes are not something that lends to casual chatter among the lay public and anecdotal information. I have no problem hearing any of these anecdotes, and giving a response like, “sounds interesting”. But the uneducated public takes these tidbits of info and they run wild. And the media is no better. One of these days, someone might produce a best seller documenting some of the wildest and most ridiculous things that were circulated among the lay public (social media is a major culprit here) as panaceas.

I know quite a few people who were sick and B”H recovered. The course of their illness was marked by their particular pattern of symptoms, plus a barrage of messages from friends, family, and others about how they need to start running to certain doctors, requesting certain medications, etc. Let’s not omit the plethora of snake oil suggestions that mean absolutely nothing.

I wish the discussion about all these things was dominated by those with the knowledge and training, topped off with scientific responsibility. It is likely that in these days of twitter, facebook, and other social media, these hopes are futile.