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Syag:
You wrote: “But for you to act like this is standard procedure for these institutions is fake news.”
You suggest that the institutions that have books that need to be hidden is the exception. I challenge that. No, I do not have inside information. But we observed the past few years with much discussion about the Markey bill which would open yeshivos to lawsuits about alleged abuse, with the knee jerk reaction that all of our yeshivos would be implicated and either forced into bankruptcy or closed. Really? Are they all guilty? Well, maybe not all, but a noticeable majority maybe. Seems the matzav of free of aveiroh is not universal or even close to that.
As for airing this publicly, I commend you for not using the “chilul Hashem” line. It denigrates the concept to refer to publicity only. My Pirkei Avos says: כל המחלל שם שמים בסתר נפרעים ממנו בגלוי. So chilul Hashem refers to behavior inconsistent with the value system, and whether in secret or not remains as chilul Hashem.
Lastly, “check the place out” and “ask good questions” sounds nice, but it is actually comical. The thief that gets caught is the one that tells others about the heist. No menahel or administrator will disclose the shady stuff going on. It is undercover, so checking won’t find it. And those protecting the operation will never admit to it until arrested and facing a judge (and then, maybe).
Firstly, it is remarkable that anyone knows what someone’s financial matzav really is. It was alarming that the administrators negotiating with me for the tuition contract reached conclusions about my income that were so badly off that the misjudgments were extreme. Some asked about family size, most did not care. All inferred that my wage was almost 3 times what it really was. All assumed I took vacations, owned an expensive car and a home in the Catskills, all of which were untrue. All assumed that I was able to access money from my parents and in-laws, also completely baseless.
Before suggesting I pay more tuition, please have a bit on knowledge of what really goes on in my checkbook. Till then, busy yourself with the yeshiva budget, not false assumptions about mine.
Here’s a suggestion. Anyone ordering police to “stand down” because of politics or liberal agendas should be charged with treason. I know it sounds radical, but the crime is. These politicians are committing domestic terror by proxy, and should be prosecuted big time for it.
CA:
The dilemma described in the OP doesn’t hit me quite that way. In my mind, the Torah is the absolute truth. There can be no other system.
Imagine we had a world where the Torah did not exist (obviously not reality). It would be incumbent upon us to establish a moral code, since without one, the world would quickly deteriorate into chaos. However, the inherent bias we have to ourselves would guide us and influence us to create a code that was somehow pleasurable to us. The restrictions we know of would never emerge from a code that is based only on our own thinking.
So the basics of morality must emanate from a spiritual source. What follows is that there can be no true conflict between Torah and morality. What I need to take from this is that anything that is moral has its root in Torah somewhere. Hillel derived a general rule from Torah. He proceeded to instruct the individual to pursue the details and related values through Torah study.
What are you talking about? The 6th perek is an addition, as it begins, שנו חכמים בלשון המשנה. That is not true for the 5th, which is a bona fide, legitimate mishna. As with much of Pirkei Avos, the obligations contained are not strict halacha, but a guide. I am not going to obligate a boy to marry at 18 based on the mishna. But nor will I consider the mishna being followed when someone who is ready for marriage and postpones it for an extended time. I referenced the quote coming from the fifth perek for the obvious reason, but you decided to misrepresent it.
As for interrupting studies, there are guidelines of when one must stop learning for various mitzvos. That also includes an issur to learn lest one fail to fulfill the mitzvah on time. Granted, we are not dealing with either minutes or hours here, but rather years. For a serious learner, your argument would be that he should avoid marriage altogether, a la Ben Azai. I reject that suggestion, as there has not been anyone alive in our generations and many in the past who could be a Ben Azai. So it is about an individual judgment of when. Accepted. But the lengths you suggest seem grandiose.
n0m:
“The statement you quoted is not a mishna. ”
It appears prominently in my copy of Pirkei Avos, 5:21. Does yours omit it? And why should your learning boy wait until 25 to get married if he is ready? Who is your support for your halacha on this?
We are also fooled by the spoken word. There are words that convey wonderful concepts that can be enticing. Wouldn’t you prefer negotiation to war? Anyone would. But when facing terror, or enemies that are sworn to your destruction who never keep a commitment and consider lying virtuous, I would frown on useless negotiation. Doesn’t equality sound nice? Guess what. Men and women are not the same. We each have our assets and liabilities. Doesn’t psychic reality make sense? Well, if that means that a he can identify as a she, and vice versa, we have a Pandora’s box of senselessness open wide. Can a teenager identify as 67 years old and collect social security? Can we here in the CR identify as President and Vice President, or as other races, etc.? It rapidly deteriorates into the ridiculous. That’s socialism. The initial sound is attractive, but it results in utter chaos.
n0m:
The divorce spike in the frum community involves several causal factors, and generalizing to all or most of them would not be accurate. But there are several issues that do appear rather often, and are worth noting. Among them is a commonly heard statement from one of a couple in crisis. When questioned, “Why did you get married?”, a frequent response is, “Because all my friends were getting married.” The foolishness is that marriage needs to be pursued when the individual is ready for it. The readiness of one’s peers should have zero bearing on the decision. That’s why I look somewhat askance to all the statements reported in the name of Gedolim about the age for marriage. Firstly, if one wants to look for a recommendation, the Mishna in Pirkei Avos openly states בן שמונה עשרה לחופה. As far as when someone is ready, that is a totally individual matter. Among my sons, one was ready at 19, others at 20 or 21.
Navy:
Humility? What’s your issue with that?
מחודדים בפיך is not a reference to the volume learned, but that it should be absorbed so that when queried you can respond. That’s the source for חזרה. You refer to כמות in terms of qualification to be called a talmid chochom. That is not the mitzvah. The mitzvah is to learn, not to become. Someone who has the breadth of knowledge can be the talmid chochom, and no one says this is not an admirable achievement. I am just saying that this is not a goal, but a perk.
We are also guided to have a varied experience in learning. Again, not with the emphasis on the number of megabytes.
n0m:
What are you referring to with “interrupted for the advancement of everyone else”?
“Kollel in a week learns what solid single guys cover in a weekend.”
I have no clue whether this is fact or fantasy. But I do suggest that we return to what the Torah tells us in order to determine whether this makes any difference.
I would like to hear any source anywhere that our accomplishments in this world are evaluated by the amount of Torah knowledge we accumulate. At least one? Actually, we are interrogated upon arrival in Beis Din Shel Maaloh, and only one question addresses Torah study. That question is: קבעת עתים לתורה. Nowhere does it suggest that we will be tested on Chumash, gemora, or halacha. We are not even providing a number of hours/minutes learned. Only whether we built in Torah into our lives. The amount of data that was downloaded into our brains is not even part of the formula. Oh, you say it is? Provide any reference to support that.
The reason that any of this is a problem is because we have a broken system. The earlier generations involved a talmid remaining under the tutelage of his Rosh Yeshiva long term, without the mobility that we now see. A few years here, 1-2 in E”Y, back to a freezer, and another few years. No steady, long term, permanent relationship. This fosters a development of structure being pinned on the address and location, not a rebbe who imbues a talmid with a derech halimud. We now identify a bochur as learning in yeshiva ploni in some city, rather than a talmid of Reb Ploni.
While learning lishmoh is a medraigoh that all wish to achieve, it is still way off. So the connection fails to be the Torah as Dvar Hashem, but whichever particular mesechtoh is currently being studied. The structure we all should have is first and foremost – learning the Torah as given on Sinai, authored by HKB”H. That connection rises above all geographic confines. I may not be able to access my familiar seat in the beis hamedrash, but I can bring the presence of the Shechinah wherever I choose to spend my time and effort learning.
This mobility may offer excitement and variety, but these are not ingredients in Torah Lishmoh. And our personal responsibility is to transcend above the address and connect with Torah – without boundaries.
Sorry to all, but I am bothered by the obsession with levush. The subject is not meaningless. We all know that the external has an effect on the internal. Yet, the visual presentation is a terribly inaccurate measure of someone’s true greatness. It is one thing to seek a uniform dress code to avoid the competitive issue, though that is often expected more in girls than boys. In my bochur days, there was nearly zero attention paid to the subject. And my generation, those on my class and the classes above and below me include quite a number of Roshei Yeshivos, Megidei Shiurim, Mechabrei Seforim, etc. All of these dressed in normal garb, not black pants with white shirts.
The focus on the external detracts from the focus on the internal, and that devastates the entire young generation today. The sheer number of adults in today’s population that are so superficial in their Avodas Hashem is staggering, despite the chumros of yoshon and bedikas tola’im. And the internal weaknesses translate into a failure to imbue the children to grow in Ahavas Hashem. I am on a front where many of these problems are exposed to me, and I am not presenting a theory. If any yeshiva invested as much effort into helping each and every talmid develop and nurture the cheishek to learn and follow mitzvos, as is given to the discipline over the dress code, our community would look vastly different. Kol Torah would not be measured in decibels but in the pervasive passion in learning.
We recite ומפליא לעשות multiple times a day. We can contemplate the greatness of הקב”ה without stepping outside as well. Do we?
Hashem created a beautiful world, with much to impress us of His greatness. If anyone has the slightest hesitation about this, open a Tehilim to פרק ק”ד, which we know as ברכי נפשי, recited on Rosh Chodesh and other times. מה רבו מעשיך ה’ כולם בחכמה עשית.
How about a chosson or kallah teacher that has serious marital problems?
May every one of these Dems become the victim of Arab terror that they love so much.
BTW, what was Nadler’s position?
Haimy:
You wrote: “An experienced shadchan can be very helpful at this stage.” Alert!
This “experienced shadchan” needs NOT to be the one behind this shidduch. There is an inherent bias, that upon the sealing of the shidduch, there is a money transaction. An uninterested third party has the luxury of being able to be more objective. I have observed quite a few shadchanim engage in frank lies in order to pad their pocket (sometimes other motives, not always money). A shadchan may and should charge for their services. And we have all heard the famous quite (I saw it stated by Ran Yaakov Emdin) that שדכן is ראשי תיבות for שקר דובר כסף נוטל. But to force a shidduch to completion with the wrong bases for doing so is unfair, perhaps even criminal.
Why certainly. One is making a decision that will affect the rest of his/her life. The entry into engagement and marriage involves a huge amount of unknowns. It requires trust in the process and the individuals involved, and a hefty dose of bitachon is a great help.
Gratefulblac:
Your test for the learning boy is mostly academic. And that is a dangerous pitfall. I said this before, and it is fact, tragic but true. The best “learners” might not be the best in midos, and are not guaranteed any more than the “not learners” to make a good husband. We might debate why this is true, but the outcome of that debate will not change the candidate being considered for a shidduch.
Next, the motivation to get married without any form of a life plan, such as career, parnosoh, where to live, etc. is highly questionable. I have met some rather unhappy people who admitted they got married because their friends were getting married. Do you eat when someone else is hungry? If someone wants to spend time in kollel learning, then there must be a plan to make sure it can be sustained. Where to live, finances, plans for future… Turning around after a bunch of years of good learning and seeking to enter the working world is a huge challenge. It is most probable that this yungerman has zero training in any manner that would facilitate entry into a career at anything but a low pay starting job – while there is a family at home that needs better parnosoh.
The Gemora (Brachos 36b) tells us the debate between Rabi Yishmael, who stated that one should work and use the rest of his time for learning Torah, and Rabi Shimon bar Yochai who said that one should learn all the time, and their work will be done by others. The Gemora goes on to say that many did as Rabi Yishmael instructed, and succeeded. Many did like Rabi Shimon bar Yochai and failed. Interestingly, this Gemora does not conclude with a psak halacha – who is correct. And the reason is obvious. For one person, Rabi Yishmael’s prescription is appropriate. For another, it is incumbent to follow Rabi Shimon bar Yochai. Giving the wrong prescription is a terrible thing to do. And it seems that the majority of people needed to follow Rabi Yishmael. Many that signed up for Rabi Shimon’s advice failed. Is your “learning boy” the one that Rabi Shimon bar Yochai wants to spend his life learning?
GH:
I am afraid your advice of trying to keep something that is individual is risky. Yeshivos have been competing on levush for years now, and their dress codes are frequently cited as their identity or their status in contrast to other yeshivos. I am an anomaly that I conform to others, but consider the entire subject of levush a cruel joke. No, it should not be. One’s externals can impact positively on the internal. But is sadly does not as much as it once did. I suggest that my making rules, codes, and standards out of levush, the chashivus and its effects were tripped of it.
It might be interesting to check some of the biographies of Gedolim of yesteryear. The talmidim in several of the yeshivos in Litta would be expelled for entering today’s yeshivos with their garb. Even among the chassidishe kehilos, the levush was far from standard. I believe many of us here have experienced Yidden who are truly spiritual who lack the rigors of the yeshivish levush, as well as the opposite.
Don’t judge a book by its cover. Nor a bochur by his levush.
n0m:
I think you did not get my sixth point. My message was that the midos and Yiras Shomayim are not correlated with learning, even strong learning. It should be, but it isn’t. The increase in Torah knowledge has not created a healthy and happy home. But midos tovos and Yiras Shomayim does.
The familial relationships issue is huge. It achieved notoriety years ago, and one would believe that we learned lessons since then. But, alas, nothing was learned. I hear frequent situations of girls or boys who refuse to leave their parents in order to connect to their spouses. Regardless of the excuses given, there is still a Torah guide that is not disputable: על כן יעזב איש את אביו ואת אמו ודבק באשתו. The criteria the Torah places on the married person is to disconnect from parents to cleave unto the the spouse. Yet, there are countless cases of parents who insist on maintaining a controlling interest in their married children, often citing their financial support as reasons for their being followers. And the incoming boy or girl is frequently frightened of this, and should be. Mechutanim can have contests who gets the children to be by them for Shabbos, Yom Tov, who chooses names for grandchildren, and countless other interferences. It’s hard enough for newlyweds to solve their disagreements. Swallowing the additional ingredients from parents and in-laws is cruel and unusual punishment.
Lastly, the extreme erudition in Shas indicates wonderful skill in learning and retaining information. It is as correlated with midos and Yiras Shomayim as lesser degrees of retained learning.
There is a story related from Rav Chaim Vital whose talmid died young. The talmid came to his rebbe in a dream, and reported that the BD Shel Maaloh decreed gehinom for him. He said he could not understand why. He mastered Shas and Halacha, he was well versed in Kabbalah, bith the knowledge and the practice. His sentence was inconsistent with his understanding of his life. His rebbe responded, “At home you were abusive. You caused enormous amounts of pain to your wife, and your children, in turn, suffered as well.” המבין יבין.
I am finding the discussions here and elsewhere about “learning boys” both comical and alarming. Having been involved with shidduchim, my own children, providing info for those who list me as a reference, etc., the entire notion is built on myths, and often frank dishonesty.
1) Learning after getting married is a wonderful thing, as is any and all Limud Hatorah. No disagreement.
2) The real, true learning boy is not the average yeshiva bochur that adopts this label when entering shidduch age. We all know the difference, but find it politically incorrect to express it.
3) A large percentage of boys that marry as “learning boys” do so as a matter of social status. Many do not remain in that status long, and others get chased out of it by the supporting parents. in-laws, or spouse. No empirical data on the numbers, but they are not low.
4) There is also a status symbol to girls requesting to marry a learning boy. That suffers the same set of mistaken beliefs.
5) Plenty of boys and girls who talk about the “learning boy” myth are seeking to placate parents who are klai kodesh or have other community status.
6) The preoccupation with the “learning boy” diverts the focus on the mission of life to be a Yerai Shomayim that wishes to establish a home of Yiras Shomayim. So midos tovos are assumed, as is the readiness for marriage. Yet, extreme erudition in Shas, with many completed mesechtos does not guarantee either Yiras Shomayim or midos tovos.I expect vicious attacks for speaking like this, but the challenges are coming from the ideal. Bnai Torah should manifest all wonderful midos and hashkafos, plus an internal motivation to pursue Limud Hatorah according to the mishna of פת במלח תאכל. Yes, the ideal. But does it happen in real life? Which “learning boy” are we seeking. The ideal one or the live one? Until this confusion dissipates, it remains foolish to hang up the sign with such a demand or expectation.
While all may be consoled that i am not interested in entering politics, nor will I ever be party to create new legislation, I feel differently about our crime laws. Anyone involved in a violent crime (needs to be defined) can be apprehended in the middle of the action, and deadly force is an option (similar to the halacha of rodef). Someone committing a street crime of mugging can be shot, and the killing of the criminal should not only not be prosecuted, but it should be heralded as heroic. In practical terms, this would not be as easy as it sounds, for a variety of reasons. But the attitude that we should declare open season on violent crime is praiseworthy.
So, in my view, whether the cop could have somehow subdued the criminal is a moot point. He had a suspect resisting arrest, stealing a weapon, etc. He should be dead meat, and the officer should be given an award.
This entire matter is unrelated to racism or police brutality. It’s about a thug element in our society that exploits vocabulary to permit themselves the privilege to destroy, steal, and be violent.
I am struggling to understand the definition of despise – which the OP suggests is the chiyuv of every Yid to feel towards someone with SSA. Does this mean to viciously attack them, as in violence, or to experience nausea in their presence? Does it mean to not converse with them, ignore them, not agree to work in their proximity, to deny doing business with them, rejecting them at a checkout counter? In the case of avoda zarah, the posuk tells us to shatter them and break their matzeivos (on entry to Eretz Yisroel which was previously inhabited by idolatrous people). If there is such a pronouncement in Torah for SSA’s, mechalelei Shabbos, or other baalei aveiroh, please cite a reference.
I suggest that one can have the casual connections and interactions with them as with any other stranger, without encouraging, endorsing, or supporting their “to’eivoh”.
So what is basic Torah hashkafah? It is certainly not based on my personal feelings. It based on what the Torah guides us to do.
Charlie:
Yes, you encountered a bad apple. And such bad apples should be identified and weeded out from wherever they are found. Whether these people are cops, politicians, journalists, sanitation workers, etc. That does not define police, and you know it. It’s just an agenda that the Dems embrace because of the craving to create a state of dependency and a massive number of guaranteed votes to stay in power.
Meanwhile, you have certainly had colleagues who were from minorities who were accomplished in their careers, and upstanding citizens. If the inner city minorities invested in their lives instead of their current choices, many would make it. But they don’t. And we have voices in the political world who cry for them, insisting that it is the burden of the hard working taxpayers to insure that they have the luxuries of the world. You and I need to provide them with bank accounts, all the latest devices, and free everything wherever they choose to be. Why? Because of their racial status? We need to drop the entry scores for advanced education to attract minorities? This gets more bizarre all the time.
There is a racial divide, and the elements needed to minimize that are not entitlements. The minorities themselves need to expend efforts in this. But they want you and I to rescue them by putting them into greater dependency.
Lastly, I have the constitutional right to believe anything I wish about minorities, and I will resist the thought police telling me how to think. I will not consider an applicant for a job based on race or color, only on qualification and merit. And if my employees are all white, that does NOT indicate that I am racist.
רבי חנינא סגן הכהנים אומר, הוי מתפלל בשלומה של מלכותז, שאלמלא מוראה, איש את רעהו חיים בלעו.
Police are needed to confront crime and promote safety. But their existence and presence has deterrent effects. And Pirkei Avos (above) explains this that if not for the element of fear from government, people would swallow each other alive. I can easily accept that reforms are needed. But the very notion of abolishing police is worse than foolish.
besalel:
I am not against the two state solution in theory. I am afraid of it for practical reasons, and here is where experience speaks loudly.
* The Palis do not really want their own state. They want Israel’s state.
* The Palis lack the ability to govern anything. There is a huge body of history to this. Nothing got better for them when Israel granted them autonomy.
* The Palis are approaching the entire subject with a unique attitude. They feel that they are entitled, and that Israel owes them something. They feel they should get whatever they want just because they want it.
* The Palis have become adept at wearing suits, speaking clearly, and pretending to be sophisticated. But they are not more than the cat that was trained to serve as a waiter. These are dedicated terrorists who do not deserve the dignity of diplomacy. It is futile to conduct any negotiations with them. They have an almost perfect record of lying and breaking all commitments.
* Israel took this land from Jordan when it was attacked. The Palis did not exist as an entity. They have no history prior to the labeling by Yasser Arafat y”sh.
* Giving them a sovereignty just legitimizes their having a military, and that will be used for terror and violence, not defense.
* The same animals that you suggest should have a state are sworn to an agenda of wiping Israel off the map. They teach it to their children, and they divert monies away from their economy and citizens to terror.Now, you still want to push the two state solution? On paper, it’s sensible. On the ground, it is a powder keg. I have not discovered anyone there that can be trusted.
GH:
Your comment is pediatric. You should certainly voice your opinion on a thread about the census to address the subject matter. But you have no mature basis for bringing in your sentiments about Trump. Regardless of whether I disagree or not, it’s a diversion that speaks poorly of the intellect you purport to possess. Grow up and address the subject.
Having noted this, it is apparent in so many ways, both in the CR and even in the MSM, that the anti-Trump position is highly emotional, and is inserted anywhere one believes it may be influential. Trump support or opposition has zero to do with the census, and i assume you do know this. Perhaps you would serve yourself better by keeping those sentiments alive in your comments on that subject, not here.
besalel:
You have a point. But the logic is refuted by fact and history. The same Arabs that you seek to give the privilege of voting want to destroy the state. They prove this over and over again, so this is not just some racist thinking. It’s pure experience. The Arabs actually have members int he Knesset. Look at their track record. They are engaged in constant acts of treason and support terror. And they have their vote. I admit there is no easy answer to this. But to offer your enemies the weapons with which they will destroy you is at least as stupid. Israel has enough enemies outside its borders. None inside are needed.
The annexation proposal is not so simple. When I first heard about it, I was excited. Israel would extend its complete sovereignty over its own land. Sounds nice. (I won’t broach the issues that underlie the shittoh of the Satmar Rov ZT”L.)
But part of this deal is that Israel relinquishes its role in the rest of the West Bank and allows it to be dominated by the PA. That is a huge problem. As things are today, the PA does not have ownership of any land, and are basically Israeli subjects with a different status that grants them limited autonomy. Increasing that autonomy is problematic.
The opinions of the Gedolim or yesteryear about land for peace were correct. But that turned out to be ineffective. Anything granted to Palestinians turns into increased terror. Gaza is a single example that the world can see. But there have been countless other concessions by Israel, and not a single one went unpunished with a spike of horrible terror attacks.
This issue is a dilemma, and with all the political ranting about it, it boils down to seeking the lesser of the evils. What we do know without doubt is that the Palis do not want peace at all. Nor do they want the land. They just want to take it away from Jews.
Edited
Here we go again, second guessing HKB”H. There is no one among us who knows exactly what the reason for COVID was, and trying to make one up, even if logical, is a futile effort at claiming to be greater than one truly is.
The census is aimed at counting all people, and nothing to do specifically with Jews. So, stop it.
There is no exact count of how many people attended the Siyum Hashas. All we really have is a collection of estimates, with input of some numbers, and the people from both law enforcement and media who claim to have expertise in estimating crowd sizes. So these numbers do not matter at all. I have no way to know what caused the mageifa, and I do not think it is respectful or Torah consistent to claim that one does know. All we should be doing is to cope with the situation, and to self-examine to see where we can better ourselves.
DMB:
I haven’t a care in the world about whether they “respect” the law or not. And whether they pay taxes or not is none of my business. But these chayos demand the right to inflict damage on me. Their feelings are not my issue. They can chant all the awful expletives about police and politicians, and i wouldn’t bat an eyelash. But their conscious choice is to assume the “right” to victimize everything they wish, to destroy my business, to loot my merchandise, and we still have those who defend and protect this evil.
You are correct in noting that stop and frisk is irritating. But if these actions consistently yielded no wrongdoing, they would stop. But that is sadly not true. The stop and frisk produced sizable numbers of possession of drugs and weapons, and led to legitimate arrests. You advocate that we go soft on crime to pacify the cultures that glorify crime. NO! Never. The reason no one used stop and frisk on Jews in Willy or BP is because it would be an utter waste of time. It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with crime. And as long as we reward any community for embracing and engaging in crime, it will continue. It is totally untrue to call this racism.
Doing my best:
You’re not doing your best, at all. You are still accepting the choice to live a life of violence because of oppression. I reject that totally.
What I observe is that a black victim of violence or murder is the awaited green light to gather in large groups, and behave like violent animals. And there are pathetically enough people to tell us innocent victims that we have to tolerate it. NO! The reality is that some young blacks don’t want to make it in life. They want the government to gift them with their creature comforts and pleasures. No, I am not generalizing to race. I am talking about the rioters. There are quite a few African Americans who abandoned that life of dependency and hedonism, and pushed themselves to get educated. And they made it. And they are wonderful people. And working along side them was no different to me than working alongside whites, or any other racial, religious, or ethnic group. Not a single employer I ever had was in the slightest discriminating. The color-blind situation was successful for all. Everyone thrived, and the work was done satisfactorily or better.
But when someone chooses not to work, to live off handouts, to demand equality (like the imbecilic gibberish that AOC and her ilk blabbered), we have a problem. It is a cultural problem. This silly voice wants someone who doesn’t work to have all the luxuries of those that do. Why? I work hard for my money, and I give a proportion to tzedokoh far above my means. For what reason must I tolerate an angry black destroying my livelihood? Not one that is remotely acceptable on any moral standard.
Stop excusing this. The greatest volume of their “anger” is not real. They fail themselves, and want society to pay for that. Not my tax dollar. Get up off your ******, get jobs, have intact families, go to school and get educated, and you’ll make it. The exposure to police is not in the slightest related to police being racist. It’s the involvement in crime. Stop morphing the facts into something that fits the liberal narrative. It’s flagrantly dishonest, and nobody wants to formulate opinions based on lies.
Edited
Common:
I am left wondering whether the assault helped anyone. Did it put masks on the faces of the kollel yungerleit? Or did this individual release his anger and achieve a state of nirvana or ultimate fulfillment?
The OTD subject is quite complex, and the efforts to shoot simple explanations or general advice are, perhaps well intended, lame efforts. It is presumptuous and more often false to point a finger at Internet and shmiras einayim issues. The rush to find his Rov is frankly ridiculous, as it is strange to expect that he actually has one that can impact him. So let’s try some generalizations that are actually valid, and seek avenues for remedy.
First question. When we say “Off the Derech”, we must then offer a definition that identifies the issue and is broad enough to include most who are OTD. What is the “Derech”? Until we answer that, we only know the individual is leading his life in a different direction. Maybe he is making more sense than we are, and the problem is us. And we should not forget that our “Derech” includes an awful lot of frank hypocrisy.
Second question. We each have a philosophy in life, and it guides us in making choices, especially those about lifestyle and beliefs. What is his? How does it differ from ours?
Third question. What do we know about experiences in his life that contributed to his making such choices?
What we do know is that he has chosen to abandon the “Derech” in which he was raised. For some reason, it has been experienced as painful enough to him that escape was his preferred defense. Trauma? Systemic hypocrisy? No, it is unlikely that he is seeking to run into the welcoming arms of secularism or free expression of taavos. He is running away. What is he running from?
It is a sad generalization that an overwhelming percentage of our rabbonim are ill equipped to handle such issues. A erudite pilpul based on Chovas Halevavos would be interesting to many of us, but likely to bore him. Few rabbonim have experience in connecting with someone shut down.
Lastly, many of us, particularly the best intentioned rabbonim, would jump to intellectual arguments to convince him that he has made bad choices in “going OTD”. Such efforts are a total waste. It is an exception that such escape occurs for logical reasons (as noted by an earlier commenter). Nearly every single situation involves the emotion, not the intellect. The Rov experienced in this might be effective. The best magid shiur, Rosh Yeshiva, pulpit Rov, etc. is unlikely to have such skills and talents, as they are less often needed for their positions.
Someone mentioned Reb Elya Brudny. He is one that has a huge heart and incredible sensitivity besides amazing insight. He is also inundated with tzoras Yisroel, and accessing him, and others in similar positions may be difficult. There are others that share Rav Brudny’s maalos, but are busy with Klal needs. And much is needed to provide the guidance for the trip back to the “Derech”. And the individual needs to want to return. And until there is desire, all efforts are futile.
Doing my best:
I am pleased that the charges were upgraded and extended to the other officers. However, it is completely immoral to victimize other people, businesses, police elsewhere, to bring about this justice. I am disappointed that you consider this okay. It is flagrantly anything even indirectly or remotely connected to morality. If these animals wrecked your business and looted your entire inventory, would you excuse them like Dinkins y”sh did? You will never convince me that riots, violence, robbery and looting, and destroying someone else’s property is acceptable. You would rant and rave if you were the innocent victim. And all these victims are innocent. You know well (and there were many interviews in the media of looters that we’re caught) attesting to zero interest in George Floyd, or even the allegations of systemic racism) that these are opportunists. They know that our immoral disgrace of a mayor will absolve them of responsibility. “Hey, a black man got killed in Timbuktu. Let’s celebrate. Burn stores, loot them for merchandise. Open season on hard-working America.”. I saw a clip where a black store owner failed in stopping the looters from destroying his business.
You cannot justify evil and consider it moral. And if that’s the best you can do, you aren’t really trying.
So America has a problem of systemic racism. And what exactly do you propose to do about it? Attitude change occurs slowly, but a long series of events. These outbursts of violent crime and destruction have never succeeded. Nor have legislation attempts. The reality is that this has nothing to do with social justice. That’s just an excuse that Democrats and similar liberal idiots blabber, with the hope that they sound progressive, educated, and focused on altruistic things. Meanwhile, there is an undeniable truth. It is that this excuse permits the destruction of innocent business owners, innocent police, and anyone else these animals can access to rob, burn, and maim. And there is no social cure for crime like this, besides bringing the severity of consequences upon the perpetrators. The completely immoral and probably unconstitutional bail reform that sends violent criminals back to repeat their behavior renders the criminal justice system almost disabled. There are other cities that had their gun owning citizens protecting the businesses. Rioters stayed away. These thugs are true domestic terrorists. I would never, ever expect legislation to curb such terror. Remember that terrorists do not respect the law. But they will run away from a gun aimed at them. And a few corpses of these rats might help make the message heard. That’s deterrence, not the gobbledygook platitudes the NYC mayor and similar imbeciles utter.
Those who truly want social justice would work with the system, not burn it down.
I ask the commenters here to reflect on their own experiences, those of their families, and others they know about. How many of the marrying chassanim and kallahs entered the relationship with the proper tools? Obviously, most marriages last, so I guess many figure it out. But do all have positive role models of marriage? Do they receive the guidance throughout their childhood, including their own growth and maturation as well as their chinuch in our yeshivos and bais yaakovs to exercise the midos tovos needed to tolerate the colossal change from singlehood to married life? Did the chosson and kallah teachers address the subjects of communication, problem solving, dealing with anger, and how to manage their social lives in successful ways?
Way too often, marriages deteriorate because they began on shaky footage, and were not given the proper attention. There are many generalizations we can make here. Some have merit, others are just silly. Yes, there are marriages that result in divorce as the lesser of the evils. Use of statistics might be interesting, but has zero relevance to any particular case. It is sad that parting spouses are upset, and are apt to channel their emotions into negative energy, keeping batei din and courts busy. Lawyers and toanim make a fortune off this, and some rabbonim consider them part of the problem.
All too often, the divorce doesn’t end upon the court or beis din concluding their respective procedures. The fighting and bickering continues and lingers, and the parties limit their original plan to move on with their lives. This is tragic for all involved (except the lawyers and toanim), and shamefully expensive.
Unless one refuses to subscribe to morality, the actions leading to the death of George Floyd were the wrong solution to the problem of his being uncooperative. Yes, there should be charges filed against all those involved. I see some commenters above have convicted all of them, while others exonerate them. I say, let this go to trial, and let the court system deal with that. The angry Antifa and others have zero right to victimize anyone else.
The riots may emanate from rage. But the victims of this are innocent. The police in other cities have nothing to do with the death, and burning their vehicles is an unacceptable crime.
All that is really happening here is that the animals have somehow gotten out of their cage. No amount of reasoning, not from the President, not the governors, not even the victim’s family will impress them. These chayos simply declare anyone else open season for them to do what they want. Rioting and looting are acts of terror. I am shocked that the politicians are still dancing around this as if there is legitimacy to it. Police need to show up in full riot gear, and anyone that loots is target practice for deadly weapons. That may stop them.
Certainly.
Obviously this is anecdotal, and not scientific data.
Women seeking to leave a marriage look at the relationship as a trap. The divorce is freeing them, and they experience it as newfound independence. They may feel lonely afterward, and they may have varying degrees of comfort in their new arrangement (with issues of new family structure, children care and support, finances, social roles, changing of other relationships, etc.) And many continue the haggling through courts afterward.
Men view their marriage experience that ended in divorce as a failure, and this affects their self esteem. Their loneliness is more often profound, and they seek other means of compensating for this. They tend to seek remarriage sooner than the women, and for many these efforts are premature. The zivug sheini scene has known challenges, and it is common that divorced men jump into that arena too soon.
From the experiences of others, the lonely Shabbos meals are difficult. Men tend to get invitations more quickly than women, and at least more often get them spontaneously. Women seek them, and may get them less often because they would need to come with their children.
I shared here some observations as generalizations. I am sure anyone here would be able to share an experience that differs. It is not scientific data. This may vary by location and community. Please do not jump on generalizations. Simply reporting what I observed.
The experience varies per situation. Women and men experience it differently, as well. No one thinks it’s pleasant. It is only expected to be the lesser of the evils.
Joseph:
These animals are not rioting in their own neighborhood. They are rioting in the places with businesses, and they don’t live there. The destruction is not anyone eliminating their own stores. They are doing it to yours and mine. My only answer would be lethal force. Nothing else stops wild animals. Don’t bore me with excuses for their anger. They are domestic terrorists, and there is no successful approach besides deadly force. Trouble is, the Democrats support them. I wish these Dems to be victims of this violence.
When i read a paragraph that contains the word vaccine and the word autism, I cringe. I might entertain discussions about other negative effects, and would still insist on hearing the conclusions of the experts that reviewed reliably scientific information. But we are struggling to find that here. The vaccine-autism issue was based on fabricated data, and passed off as science. I have done research before, and am familiar with the trust that must be present to consider any research useful. Meanwhile, theories were written to explain something that has no basis in truth. And the oilem goilem hears something like this and runs with it. So we have large crowds of believers that these vaccines are the conspiracy of government and big pharm, decorated with anecdotes, and enhanced by the anti-science movements.
I well understand caution with introducing a vaccine into a system. It needs to have demonstrated safety and effectiveness. It must also be needed for individual and public health. Understood. And the outbreaks that can affect others negatively must be addressed by the medical field as well as the government that attends to public safety. But if we allow the introduction of hysteria into the scene, and we give credence to utter fiction, we are set up for doom.
The COVID-19 is still new, and has been studied comparatively little in the short time of its appearance in the science world. We might choose to be cautious about vaccinating, as long term results have yet to be observed. I would not be so paranoid to project another conspiracy, with as little truth as the last ones.
Perhaps there are times and places that decisions need to be made with external considerations. But I suggest that the decision where to send a child to yeshiva, Bais Yaakov, seminary, etc. is best made with the main interest the child him/herself. The system has evolved to where there is such a thing as “the seminary 1-2 years in Israel”, or “the 1-2 years in yeshiva in Israel”. These generalizations are potentially hazardous. If a bochur or girl is right for the trip to E”Y and the yeshiva or seminary, then it is a wise consideration. To go there because others do is plainly stupid, and a huge risk. I eat when i am hungry, not when yenem is hungry.
There are certain realities that we face, and are easily blinded by the baseless sending to E”Y. The extent of hashgacha on a bochur or girl is minimal. Being absent from yeshiva may go unnoticed. There are countless excuses to be AWOL. There are countless places to go, many are mekomos hakedoshim, others sightseeing and touring. There are countless places to eat, and people to visit. There are also lots of events like protests and similar drama that many question their validity altogether, but are, at the very least, potentially huge distractions from the purpose of going to E”Y.
There are also risks there. At least 20-some years ago, there was a brilliant article in the Jewish Press authored by a social worker, Chezi Goldberg A”H HY”D. He begged American families to please not send their teens with issues to the streets of Jerusalem. He was consulted by way too many who were fighting the scourge of drugs that had assaulted the young people and were claiming lives. I have personal knowledge of tens of cases (and I am informed the real number is much higher than that) of kids sent back to enter rehabs back home.
There is no gezairoh that bochurim or girls must learn in E”Y. Nor is it fair to judge the yeshivos and seminaries in comparison. Together with the heightened kedusha there, there is a corresponding level of yetzer horah. The external presentation of a boy or girl fails to serve as the basis to judge whether this task is for them or not.
Often, the prolonged connection at home is an asset. And sometimes it is better for the teen to be elsewhere. These are all individual judgments. Making this into a trend is criminally irresponsible.
I went to E”Y for a few years, and thrived. I had friends that did not. And this predated the drug risks there. I eat when I am hungry, not yenem.
This subject is quite complex. The yeshiva or seminary continues to have expenses. It would be nice if they could meet them and avoid potentially serious consequences. Yet, the services they sell to bring in money to cover those expenses are no longer being sold. I am excluding those that continue to conduct classes via phone, zoom, etc. It is of questionable morality to be able to charge for services not being provided.
This pandemic has caught us all by surprise, and no one had a mechanism in place to cope with it. It is not just the schools that are being hit, but the parents are also, to some degree, affected by loss of job or income. Now with these families grappling to find a way to make their day to day bills, we have no hesitation to insist they fund yeshivos that are not teaching their children? It is similarly painful to see the flood of fundraisers in the news pages of this site and others. They are among the disruptive popups, and are also emails and similar requests. It is sad to note that there appears to be a contest who can make their fundraising ad more pitiful to direct tzedokoh funds there. Even sadder is that there are so many families thrust into poverty, with jobs lost, parents niftarim, with yesomim all over. This is a troubling time for Klal Yisroel. And no one will jump in to help address the financial part besides Acheinu Bais Yisroel. But I wish those doing this fund raising would realize that the people they are addressing and begging no longer have the resources to help much. Yes, the desperation increases, but applying pressure on those who also don’t have is not the answer.
We all want our mosdos to remain open, and to return to their holy tafkid of harbotzas Torah. Our aniyei amcho share that desire, without the means. The pressure needs to be directed elsewhere.
Does anyone here recall the event that led to the discovery of penicillin? From an elementary school science class, a bit of mold landed on a petri dish with bacteria, and the bacteria died. This anecdote prompted the scientific research, and launched antibiotics.
I am fine with anecdotal data. I do not need to deny its existence. But the stretch from that to a general recommendation is huge. No scientist would get away with that. It might work on social media, but any responsible scientist would never take such a leap. Anecdote provides basis to ask questions. But these questions do not become answers just like that. The power of social media is that it gets a public to buy almost anything. I don’t question Dr. Z’s practice of medicine. When he gets to public health, and recommending his miracle to the world, we have sunk to the sewer of social media.
GH’ DMB, and others:
Medical decisions need to be made by those possessing the expertise. The treatment of an individual patient is the person’s physician. Those involving the public reside with the medical authorities designated by the government (fed, state, local). If my personal physician chooses a specific treatment for me, even if that is something off label or experimental, that is his/her responsibility. An outsider has no business interfering in my doctor-patient relationship. Those dealing with the public have a different responsibility. They are beholden to the scientific approach that sets standards and requirements to approve treatments.
Yes, there is a political agenda in the background. That is as relevant to Trump pumping things that have not yet passed the rigors of scientific study, as it is to the brain dead Squad and other Dems yelling at every single step the POTUS takes. Yes, the sheer amount of lies, coverups, and misrepresentation of these Dems is astounding. But the final words need to come from the experts, and these do not include politicians.
All the collections of anecdotal data may be interesting and promising. But without controlled study, we don’t have something that can be recommended. Do the studies.
Chaim:
I hear you, and recognize that you utter painful truth. I also see comments, which B”H do not reflect a lot of backlash. So you have garnered several who agree with you.
Now the sour grapes. You are correct in noting that the “Moshiach is coming” approach is counter-productive. It removes us from focusing on our tafkid. It sells itself as a defense mechanism to cope with the immense and severe anxiety we have while experiencing this crisis. This is amplified when we watch the tragic deaths around us. Today’s media is reporting the number of pages of obituaries from various newspapers and publications. The mechanism sells itself as a sanctimonious thing, as we are all supposed to be maaminim about the coming of Moshiach. But it diverts our avodah on our own, unique self-improvement. We are too easily sucked into the trap of running around to collect impressions from our Gedolei Yisroel for a reason why the tragedy has befallen us. “It’s all because of talking in shul.” “It’s because of bitul Torah.” “It’s because of inadequate tznius.” Etc. Rav Shteinman ZT”L was not one of those apt to make general statements like this, and would respond that we should do our own cheshbon hanefesh and fix the problems we find.
The kollel system has many advantages. Yet, we are far more prone to encounter the casualties. It is silly to give the responsibility of managing a home to someone with zero means. Our Chazal guided us to have a career path prior to marriage. No, I am not against kollel or learning after the wedding. But we have vilified the one that works, makes an honest living, and is koveya ittim. We have said the vilest things about a bochur that seeks training in a field where parnosoh would be enabled, so that he doesn’t need to spend his life as a dependent. We subjugated the shidduch system to this upside down perception of Torah value, and made the “catch of the day” the “learning boy”. This comes with zero assurance that the “learning boy” is not someone just with the label, and no one knows whether this “catch” will end up in places unbecoming to a real learning boy. And it says nothing at all about the midos that will be brought into the marriage. So it became about money. Should money marry money? Should the rich marry outside of their financial strata? Aren’t we all entitled to spend the early years of marriage with the bills being paid by someone else? You nailed it. Entitlement. A dependent generation.
My sad realization is that we are less than truthful when we declare our lifestyle choice about being a “ben Torah”, or about Yir’as Shomayim. It’s more likely to be a direct result of following the masses that espouse this upside down perception of Ratzon Hashem. It certainly lacks credibility when one reviews the many psukim and Divrei Chazal. But if it sounds holy, it must be the quickest road to heaven. Sorry, but I’ll return to the guidance of our Neviim and Chazal before following these trends and styles. Maybe, just maybe, some of this will be part of the process we develop in our effort to return to normal after COVID.
Charlie:
Absolutely correct. The lead on this issue must come from the scientific experts. And both of us have referenced the rigors of true scientific study, and that outcomes are not something that lends to casual chatter among the lay public and anecdotal information. I have no problem hearing any of these anecdotes, and giving a response like, “sounds interesting”. But the uneducated public takes these tidbits of info and they run wild. And the media is no better. One of these days, someone might produce a best seller documenting some of the wildest and most ridiculous things that were circulated among the lay public (social media is a major culprit here) as panaceas.
I know quite a few people who were sick and B”H recovered. The course of their illness was marked by their particular pattern of symptoms, plus a barrage of messages from friends, family, and others about how they need to start running to certain doctors, requesting certain medications, etc. Let’s not omit the plethora of snake oil suggestions that mean absolutely nothing.
I wish the discussion about all these things was dominated by those with the knowledge and training, topped off with scientific responsibility. It is likely that in these days of twitter, facebook, and other social media, these hopes are futile.
Charlie:
Thx for the support.
The subject matter is that the pandemic here has too many unanswered questions, and this irritates the public. That is expected. So if there is a problem, there must be a solution. Simple paradigm that is one of the pillars of science. So the chatter about all kinds of things fills the airwaves. people use the phone, social media, and the internet to tout their ideas of what the answer should be. I want answers as badly as the next person. But I have been experienced in some scientific work, including research, and am keenly aware that anecdote may trigger one to ask more pointed questions, develop hypotheses, and even start investigating the matter. But doing so requires strategy, patience, and plenty of time. Men and puppies – characterized by impatience. So a word gets uttered somewhere, and it goes “viral”. Maybe it is a bit of an exaggeration (and maybe not) to say that the stories about the drug spread farther than the actual virus.
It is so sad that there is a ton of anecdote that dominates the above mentioned airwaves. It fuels the anti-vaxx movement, the proliferation of “miracle workers” such as advertise their anti-ayin horoh remote removal skills, and a huge chunk of the alternative health care market. And when the research gets done, so many of these baseless endeavors are proven to be shams. It is appropriate to ask questions and investigate. But science requires more than a few stories.
This discussion should not be taking place here. We posters in the CR are not professionals, not in medicine, pharmacology, or public health. The issues at hand are complex, and our lay opinions are worth nothing, even though we are entitled to have them.
Scientific research is a complicated process. One seeks to find a causal relationship, in this case, with the medication being effective. There are so many variables that make this far from simple. Dosage is only one of those. There are many physiological variables, the conditions of the patient, etc. that are relevant. The length of time, the combinations with other drugs, etc. These require controlled conditions, a sample that is sizable enough to be sure the results are not by chance, and the comparison to other interventions (or lack thereof). Two doctors using any particular medication in different places and under different conditions cannot compare or contrast their results.
The amount of time to resolution or cure is also a factor, as are side effects. We are all a bunch of fools shooting off our mouths about a subject that is beyond us. As much as I tend to support Trump, I believe it was not his place to speak to the public about this medication. He might say there are ideas being floated and examined by scientists and doctors, but he is not the one to push a medical agenda.