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Chinuch and discipline are opposite sides of a coin. Chinuch is treaching your child or talmid what to do. Discipline is teaching what NOT to do. In fact, discipline does not teach. It controls. It has its place. When this becomes the primary mode of raising children, we have a state of confusion over our mission and responsibility.
Discipline can sometimes be used to teach, but this requires creativity. Typical punishments can result, at best, in the inhibition of unwanted behavior. But that fails to teach.
It is also noteworthy that the use of reward and punishment is primitive. It is useful in the training of animals, pets, laboratory animals. That is all that can be done with these creatures. I would like my children to know that behaving properly is something to be valued. That does not happen with an external reward, nor would punishment accomplish that.
And I suggest that the Mods take this thread down completely. The very headline is misinformation.
I will not opine on the specifics. Ask your LOR.
This was alluded to in an earlier comment, and I may be adding nothing except for vocabulary that may make the issue more clear.
Tznius involves two issues. One is halacha. There are varying opinions on several tznius matters that address basic halacha. Is the forearm considered ervah – do elbow length sleeves suffice? This is addressed by poskim. The second issue is the value aspect. Halacha does not proscribe bright red dresses. However, the eye catching colors are provacative. This becomes a violation of the value aspect. Again, I turn to poskim with the erudition and expertise to render rulings on all of this. But our discussion will be enhanced if we are clear about what is clear halacha and what is the spirit of the law.
And, as was noted in an earlier comment, certain shaitels might be more appealing. But is that what Bnos Yisroel should be wearing? I suggest we address the question, and reach the conclusion after careful deliberation. Let us not decide that we want a certain psak, and then engage in the discussion to justify it.
U:
I am not suggesting that one must say every piyut. You are correct, a little with kavanah is better than a lot without. I am referring to either babbling through it to get done fatser. I am also addressing those who skip parts just to rush, perhaps to get to work earlier, etc. Starting earlier. A talmid chochom who I share the minyan with, begins selichos almost 10 minutes early so that he can keep up.
LYT:
That is one of the more foolish things to comment. No one minimizes the need to go to work. I assume you work, and I know I do. That’s our parnosoh, and this is the chief means by which HKB”H provides for us. But your version of “Get Real” is sadly mistaken. Much more important is our desperate need to daven, and all our tefilos, including selichos are critical to our very existence. If you are under such severe pressure to get to work on time, begin selichos earlier. There are probably minyonim that you could attend that make this possible. The alternative of ramming through selichos, or any part of davening is inconsistent with our mission as Yidden. We need to set the proper priorities. Chewing up or trimming tefilos in a rushed frenzy to get to work is not an option.Several seforim mention that the pituyim that grace selichos each day, are secondary to the long paragraph of introductory psukim, and to the reciting of the 13 midos harachamim. In reality all of selichos is an absolute treasure, if we had any inkling of what we are saying. Same goes for the most used book in every shul, the siddur. Our routine and robotic recitation of the regular tefilos is a “swing and a miss” (baseball lingo). We have precious opportunities to speak directly to Hashem. Clearly, diverting that time and energy to social chatter is a horrible waste. But babbling the words without emotional involvement, which would be facilitated much by better understanding of what we say, is a similar waste.
Shulchan Aruch obligates us to review tefilos prior to Rosh Chodesh – inasmuch as printing presses were not common then, and there were limited handwritten copies of the siddur. The Mishna Berurah comments that since we have siddurim and machzorim, this halacha pertains to piyutim. I ask, which yeshivos reserve time to review tefilos, whether year round or before Yomim Tovim? Do we review the piyutim of Selichos or of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur? How about the Hoshanos recited during Sukkos? As per the MB, this is a halacha. I believe we would do ourselves a huge favor by gaining more understanding of what we utter in tefiloh so that we do not squander the precious opportunity to speak directly to HKB”H (upon his express invitation).
Actually, the picture is quite different. Yes, the vaccine has become politicized, and that is tragic. Political views should not supersede science. There is a serious problem here. And this extends to the entire anti-vaxx movement. It is based on fear mongering first, and secondarily on junk science. I made it my business to listen to quite a few of the anti-vaccine presentations, and I am appalled at the sheer volume of falsehoods that are being presented as if they were scientific fact. I would suggest that people fact check the dribble being presented as science. It’s alarming. And so many people believe it.
Yes, vaccines can have adverse reactions. And the vaccines for COVID are no different. Yet, the statistics are clear, the adverse reactions and re-infections are extremely low.
I would be more than happy to TALK. But once the anti-vaxxers begin citing anecdotal data, or outright lies, we can no longer engage in debate. The truth here is that the anti-vaxx movement, whether for all or just for COVID, have made a decision. Now they are stuck with spinning anything they see or hear to support it. Typical junk science – first conclude and them seek the support. As long as the movement against vaccines bases their approach on lies and other manners of dishonesty, I will not engage in debate with them.
Here is an interesting question. A restaurant engages in shady business practices. They might be using stolen merchandise. They might be collecting cash payments and not reporting them. They might be cheating their employees regarding their wages. You get the point. Should the hechsher be withdrawn if these issues come to light? Or do we consider the hechsher limited to the kashrus of the food?
I know of a specific instance where there were such issues, and the hechsher was withdrawn, causing the establishment to fold.
I understood that the intent of the hechsher was to oversee the matters related to food. But a hechsher on an establishment implies that everything there is being done in accordance with halacha. I doubt machshirim examine the books. But if such issues do surface, a hechsher should be withdrawn. It’s not just politics.
Managed care was the first step towards the universal health care goal. It placed a barrier between the patient/subscriber and the insurer. It meant that with few exceptions like emergency care, any medical service would require authorization. The people placed into the positions of making decisions to approve services were frequently untrained, non-professionals. These systems were intended to maximize the premiums, that were all raised significantly, and to minimize the expenses. The insurance companies and their investors walked away with fortunes. Hospitals, health care professionals, etc. were left holding the bag. So prices went up for anyone not covered, and the payments to doctors went down. Hospitals negotiated to become member providers, and the insurers only accepted them when the prices for services were reduced.
Here’s the beef. Accessing medical care became tougher, and the out of pocket costs went way up. Doctors watched their incomes drop, and medical schools eventually saw applications and admissions drop. The medical field, once a target of aspiration, lost its lustre. The researchers also lost out, and the quality of medical care in America began to dip. Have we noticed people coming to America for medical care, special surgeries, etc.? They cannot develop such services elsewhere because there is no incentive for it.
That was just managed care. Once the government entered the business, it spiraled downward. No one says that there was no health care crisis. But the Obamacare and similar ideas that were full of socialist goals is not the answer. We have sunk closer to third world countries, and need to do much to restore American medicine to its former shine.
eishes chayil:
I have repeated this here and other threads on this subject. There is a place for a potch. However, the determination of when it is appropriate is more complex than it ever was. Instead of attempting to mimic what he know or hear about of past generations, we need to see what the gedolim of our times tell us of the guidelines.
Earlier, there was quote about the Brisker Rov. Let’s see what he stated. I report this from a verbatim quote published in a reputable seferon chinuch. The Rov said that the first potch might be permissible under a list of conditions. The second potch is an issur min haTorah of assault. The Gemora instructs this potch to not be with a strap but with a shoelace. It is clear that the potch is not there to punish but to teach. If we cause pain to a child or talmid, are we teaching, or are we establishing the fear to force compliance. The latter might help control the classroom, but it is dishonest to call that teaching.
With all the opinions here, I still ignore all of them, in total deference to the guidance from so many Gedolim of the current and recent generations. The material from their guidance is accessible. We cannot expect a positive result from running our homes and yeshivos like a boot camp. Teach them. Model for them. It works.
I have repeated this countless times on several threads on this subject. So many of the comments here are coming from personal opinions, and most are without having been educated and informed on the subject matter. I suggest that before engaging with the keyboard and mouse, first engage with the seforim from the Gedolim of our present and recent generations as well as plenty from even earlier. I hurts me to see the abuse heaped on the posuk in Mishlei, חושך שבטו שונא בנו, as if it directs one to teach via discipline. This is a severe corruption. It is clearly worded to place discipline as a last resort. It also doesn’t specifically instruct to hit, and claiming it does is attributing something to Shlomo Hamelech that he never said. It is sad that we have allowed our chinuch to become founded on discipline rather than teaching. It is sad that we have made about compliance, not the transmission of values. It is sad that our yeshivos now base their success on volumes of data transmitted in place of the transmission of values of our Avos. Just look at the use of tests that translate to grades, which are nothing more than the retrieval of memory, with little to no attention paid to the effort and progress of each individual student. Tests reflect more about the success of the teacher than the progress of the students. It is sad.
The potch has its place. It is there to control behavior, not to teach. Now remind us all of the role of the rebbe. If it is about control, you are describing a boot camp, not a yeshiva. When chinuch deteriorates to the management of the class via discipline, we have a rebbe or teacher that occupies the wrong job, a menahel who is clueless about real Torah chinuch, or a curriculum whose value is simply the paper it is on.
This is not about secular education. It is Torah chinuch. Check your Judaica/seforim store for the publications on chinuch from Torah leaders. Then tell us about how and when to use discipline.
I’ll make one more try at stating this simply.
Mesirah is not a good thing. There is no debate on that. There are instances when it is mandatory – according to halacha. Yes, halacha mandates that we access the secular authorities. Contemporary Poskim have spoken about this openly, and their piskei halacha are available. So mesirah is a double edged sword. It is either ossur or it is a chiyuv.
To the believers of the narrative that it is always ossur, you have a few problems. First, that halacha says differently. Secondly, as noted by the Gedolei Haposkim, we lack the competence to assess the credibility of an accusation. We cannot jump and accept it is certain guilt, nor may we dismiss it. We need to see to it that these is an evaluation to determine the veracity of the report. I have yet to encounter a single Rav anywhere that has the training to accomplish this.
To IYK:
You suggested that the needs in this situation should override halacha. That is unnecessary. Halacha speaks to that, and our poskim who know all about mesirah have told mandated reporters to fulfill their professional responsibilities. I will follow their direction any day, and ignore the rantings of those who wish it wasn’t so. In summary, mesirah can be following halacha.
IYK:
Your math is ok, but you did not include some monetary value for the damage to your emotion and spirit. You are correct in noting that true compensation is impossible. It is not about punishing the abuser, as deserved as it may be.
IYK:
I want to support the comment to you by Syag. Your experiences were horrible, and everything that can eradicate such atrocities from our community is a chiyuv.
Syag was also correct in noting that ujm speaks from a fanatic position that is inconsistent with the halacha as stated by the Gedolei Haposkim. It is to be noted that there is room for more progress. And I am correct in pointing to the narrative that gets believed by many who are otherwise ignorant. That is similar to the reams of nonsense that permeate the ugly world of politics and the wretched mainstream media.
Allow me to pretend to be a therapist for a moment. This thought might actually help you. The abuse field contains activists. Some are fanatics, others are responsible individuals who contribute their time and effort toward resolving this serious issue. You have the experience of being victimized. There are two directions you can take from here. You can be a victim, or you can be a survivor. The former leaves you with a prevailing sense of rage, negativity about self, and the desire to exact revenge against perpetrators and anyone perceived to support or protect them. These are painful feelings, not bad ones. However, they anchor the victim into the mud, and push deeper until emerging from the “blotteh” is all but impossible (without help). The alternative is to be a survivor. This is the dimension that Syag suggested, to get involved in constructive activity to reduce the problem. You can define the niche in that realm that is most suited for you. And professional help is extremely helpful.
It is not easy for an outsider to dictate to you how to get out of the mud, though professionals trained in trauma work tend to be adept at this. I won’t direct you where to place your energies and efforts. But the ditch of revenge is not a useful place to get stuck. The perps might get what they deserve, but that won’t get you unstuck. I have no problem seeing these murderers of young people’s innocence and stability locked up for life. Our community should be protected from them. But that will not contribute an iota to your happiness or diminishing the negative feelings. Activism does not mandate being a fanatic. Try becoming a survivor. You will recognize the uselessness of feeding garbage to the anti-Semitic media that will accomplish nothing. I, for one, would like to see your efforts be fruitful. Become a survivor.
ujm:
Again, narrative. Have you studied the halachos? Your blanket statements are simply untrue and not in accordance with halacha. No one says that these authorities do not inflict misery on the families they deal with. In fact, they get things wrong a lot of the time, and people suffer in the interim. I agree that these agencies should probably be replaced. But the issues we are confronting here are pikuach nefesh, and the many poskim I’ve discussed things with have acknowledged this openly. The fear of involving the authorities is based more on the chilul Hashem factor if word leaks to the public that such crimes occur within the community, and even more if there was a yeshiva that was derelict in protecting their students. But the mesira issue has been addressed by the Gedolei Yisroel, and has been put to rest by halachic authorities far greater than you or me.
Your last paragraph is totally inaccurate. Poskim have ruled clearly that mandated reporters must report.
Lastly, you were referring to “mesira”, which you see as evil, not “mesora”.
ujm:
You are presenting a narrative,, and I believe that a good bit of it is untrue. Let’s take it apart.
First – define mesira. This is about police reporting. It involves the alleged or suspected commission of a crime. This would involve arrest and potentially prosecution. And there are certainly times when this is the matter at hand. But there are numerous others. I suggest you seek some numbers for how many reports to State Central Registry are rejected, how many do not involve arrests, and what percentage do. Then tell me how many of these were in violation of a psak halacha (or would have been had a shailoh been asked). Not all government entities are subject to mesira.
Next – research the therapists to see if they ask shailos. Enjoy your sleuthing. Every single frum therapist would respond in the affirmative to such inquiry. Whether they actually do is another thing. How about if they already know the answer? Many therapists actually do, having spent considerable time with noted poskim, reviewing the parameters, and are experienced in knowing when the answer is simple or complicated. These therapists then pose the challenging ones for psak halacha. I have yet to hear of a single instance where a frum therapist went against such a psak or acted without having learned from poskim how to conduct their work.
I was not addressing instances where secular law conflicts with halacha. I will quote several poskim, notably Rav Dovid Cohen shlit”a of Flatbush, who paskened that a mandated reporter is obligated to follow secular law, and should report anything that the law of land requires. You may call Rav Dovid to verify this. He stated this publicly many times.
Lastly, your narrative usually assumes that the average posek is qualified to respond to these shailos. Well, that is actually not true. Most are not, and will usually refrain from responding. Do bear in mind that the typical shailos you are implying are double edged swords. There is either an obligation to report or it is completely ossur. The determination of the fact pattern is not made by the posek, but rather by the professional.
You should connect with some poskim who are versed in issues of mental health. They are typically connected to several professionals, and have amassed a great deal of experience in these matters. You can voice your concerns, and you will discover that the narrative has quite little merit.
Not another thread on this!
This issue has been tortured in discussion for years. Therapists in the frum community have been thirsting for guidance from rabbonim and poskim for many years. And to everyone’s great fortune, the rabbonim and Gedolei Yisroel have been generous in lending their time to providing this guidance. There are several problems with the OP’s accusations.
First, let it be known that all rabbonim recognize that the professional is obligated by law to make reports of danger to authorities. In that regard, there are some who direct referrals to “therapists” who have no such secular training, and are not required to maintain professional or ethical standards. However, this practice is frought with risk. These same unprofessional therapists have often had other compromises on their ethical standards, with some taking liberties with their clients that are totally criminal and worse than unethical. You might get interesting medical advice from friends and strangers, but I would rather go to someone with medical training.
Reporting to authorities is not mesira, and no one gets arrested for raising questions to authorities. If there is evidence of a crime and there is credible suspicion that someone is the perpetrator that is responsible for it, there might be an arrest. Calling that mesira is plain old ignorance.
Consulting with Daas Torah. Hmm… Anyone I know that consulted with Daas Torah was simply shown the green light. Some rabbonim even questioned why they were being asked. Most situations are that obvious that asking shailos is just a delay in the process. And when the question is more intricate, please tell us who you would consider the appropriate Daas Torah that has the competence to know the subject matter. Just having the expertise in halacha does not guarantee clarity of the subject.
This OP question, often asked, is hardly intended to obtain an answer. Rather, it is a veiled attempt to throw a baseless accusation at the mental health field. We have read the stories. I have yet to hear one that should not have reported. The frum therapists are far more Torah oriented than is implied by the OP.
When I want to buy a lemon, I go to the fruit store or the grocery.
The average buyer of a car has no idea about the mechanics, just how to drive. And most of the worst lemons make it out of the lot. It’s once you get the car home and begin driving that you discover everything wrong. Too late. Thanks used car salesman. Reputation well earned.
There are Talmudic names that seem to have vanished from popularity.
Here are a few:
Chalafta, Abaye, Sumchus, Mesharshya, Popa, Ahcho, Antignos, Avtalyon, Tarfon, and Nechunya.
You won’t be busy with guests and family wondering whose side the child is named after.
This guy has never been anything other than a partisan politician. Can anyone name the last time he actually did something in Congress that was the mission of his constituents? He could not even vote against the Iran deal until he verified it would be passed so he could get his way for the political side while lying to the people of New York that he was against it. We should not tolerate liars like him who abuse public office for their personal gain and only that of the “party”.
Truth:
What a bizarre screen name. You attacked innocent Israel quite maliciously, backtracking with the lame excuse that you wrote it before the rockets. Bupkis. You are nothing better than the run of the mill leftists, whose narrative is devoid of morality or fact.
Israel is not an aggressor, and has never been one. Correct, never. Any insinuation that they are is a vicious lie. The entire military is not meant for offense, only defense. You must know that because it is plainly obvious.
Israel has zero interest in taking Palestinian lives. Not old ladies, not children, not young adults, not even terrorists. Israel wants peace, nothing more. The Palestinian subhuman savages don’t want freedom, land, or money. They are bloodthirsty, and are only appeased with Jewish blood. Yes, yours and mine. Concessions by Israel of land, money, supplies, food, medicine, etc. accomplish nothing, and history testifies to this. The slightest thing is exploited as a basis to launch into terror. Our current violence is the wishes of Biden and the American left, providing these animals with money and supplies via Iran. And we are perfectly moral and justified in including in our tefilos the demise of this evil ideology and the those who perpetuate it. If you have any morality to you, jump off that ship quick.
Reb Eliezer:
I’m sorry. The article you cited is nothing more than a photo op. Politicians do this all the time. It is sad that you consider Schumer to be sincere about anything but his political agenda. I know he is halachically Jewish, but he lacks any track record to be considered honest or trustworthy. He has made far too many booboos in his time that show he lacks the neshomoh he professes to have. He has proven to be a Democrat hack, and suffers from too many liberal views to be tolerable. I wish he would go away and abandon politics completely.
What a fascinating discussion.
The purpose of nichum aveilim is not about the niftar, but about the oveil. If saying something lofty is praiseworthy to the niftar but painful to the aveilim, I suggest that this statement be avoided. That’s probably why the halacha is that the visitor being menachem should not initiate the conversation, but rather the oveil. This guides the interaction to be according to the wishes and desires of the oveil. Making a comment that the passing of the niftar was somehow positive is not appropriate at this time.
Lastly, we are all victims to the tendency to try and identify causes for the tragedy. This is shameful. Many gedolim specified that this was clearly a gezairoh, and we have no way to know why. The suggestions they offered for people to be mekabel on themselves are not repairs for the flaws that prompted the gezairoh, and most stated this clearly. To address causes during aveilus is misguided.
As long as we are addressing the issue, I will pick up something in the earlier comment of n0m. Asking the wrong things.
We have created a monster of fiction called the “learning boy”. One would expect that this refers to a bochur who is fully capable of becoming klai kodesh who has the desire to apply himself to full time learning. It should have nothing to do with the “flow”, the “image”, or the indoctrination by yeshivos. We need such klai kodesh, and kollelim provide such an opportunity.
But we have many that enter the “learning boy” category to avoid responsibility, to follow the image and flow. These make up too large a percentage of the yungerleit sitting in kollel. And they do so at the expense of parents and in-laws, as well as a drain on the community. There is no such halacha that once married, a boy has to stay and learn. There is no halacha that a boy should be dependent long term on anyone. There is no halacha that women should work to provide parnosoh for the home. So information that a boy is not a bum is dressed up to make it sound like he is a budding Rabbi Akiva Eiger or Pnai Yehoshua. This has no moral standing, and our being complicit in this is shameful.
We fail to explore the midos of prospective chassanim and kallos. Our tendency is to avoid detail, and pay far more attention to the erudition of one’s Torah study, appearance, the reputation of the family, and to money related issues. Should one not probe to learn about what the boy or girl does when they are angry? I bet that has greater impact on the viability of the marriage than whether the boy completed 5 masechtos or only 2. I bet it matters more than whether either side has money or yichus.
Asking the right questions doesn’t guarantee an answer, and maybe even an accurate, truthful answer. And the Chofetz Chaim is clear that negative information provided here is NOT lashon horah.
So, yes, do the research. And we should all daven that this research produces the right info that helps everybody find their zivug.
I beg to disagree.
Matrimony is presumably the goal of dating. The date experience is hoped to serve as a sample of the other individual’s behavior, personality, etc. The date is a trial experience of spending time together, with variability of how this time is spent – i.e., walking around, eating at a restaurant, sitting in a single location and chatting, etc. Inasmuch as this is an incursion into a possible long term relationship, it needs to be something that is approached with the possibility of being the first step in the long road of marriage. As a lifetime decision, it should not be addressed casually. And because there is serious value to this first (baby) step, it needs to be built on a solid foundation of information that supports the likelihood of long term commitment.
I do caution that the information obtained is sometimes of dubious value. There are references that frankly lie or cover up. Others give simple, pre-packaged descriptions that are non-specific to the individual, and basically convey nothing of substance. Yes, there is an art to giving info as well as how to obtain it so that there is more meaning to it.
huju:
Climb back under your rock. There has never been the extremes of partisan politics as what the Dems have been obsessed with against Republicans since the campaigns before 2016. I am not proud of Trump’s mouth, and how he was persistent in his name calling (though his names were kind of accurate and succeeded in helping us understand what his opponents were all about). But the Dems, before knowing anything, did what would never be tolerated by law enforcement. Normally, one finds a crime, and seeks to identify the suspect. Here, the Dems identified Trump as a criminal, and then spent four years looking for a crime. And they concocted a few things that all petered out once facts were known. You gotta admit the impeachments were all about politics, and nothing else. You gotta admit that they handled the processes of everything in line with political hate, not seeking truth.
Allegations against Kerry are not phony, nor are they a smear. That man hated Israel passionately, and he served Obama well in his mission to wreak destruction upon it. That is clear, and not doubted. The Iran deal was a horrible idea. And siding with it is more than suggestive of where someone’s feelings lie.
GH:
Who else denied the veracity of the report? I searched but could not find a denial from anyone except Kerry. And that doesn’t count for much.
As for the mammoth task of investigating the 4,000 political appointees of the Obama administration, that number is over-inflated. Not all had connection to Middle east politics, and would not be relevant to the subject here. Additionally, hiring the extra lawyers for DOJ to launch these wide ranged investigations might mitigate a little bit the job losses that will result from the Biden administration’s brilliant ideas of spiking the capital gains tax, the pork that gets drained to illegal aliens, and the other tzunamis that will affect the job market.
rt:
Kerry has been dishonest and morally corrupt before. Hew worked for a regime that was pro-terror and anti-Israel. The revelation from Zarif was not to the media but to another Islamic terrorist. That is considered משיח לפי תומו, and there are grounds for believing it. The briefings were not just the history of events attributed to Israel, but intelligence that was unknown to anyone except those privileged to have it. If so, he was in serious violation by disclosing these secrets.
So I believe the terrorist over Kerry. I will daven that Kerry’s evil gets exposed, and the evils of the bosses whose service he was exercising. May they all be looking up at 6 feet of dirt.
Maybe, just maybe the problem is us.
When we encounter someone we do not know, how do we assess them? How do we know they’re Yidden, how do we know they are Shomrei Mitzvos, etc.? I postulate that the average means of making such assessments is based on the externals. The manner of dress, and other outward signs. And there are many times that such assessments are accurate. But sometimes the are not. And the errors go in both directions.
We can see a manner of dress that doesn’t fit our current expected norms (white shirt, suit long or short, hat of whatever kind, etc.), and when these don’t meet our expectations, we reach conclusions that the individual is not frum, or just not one of ours. When it does, we then assume, as seems to have happened in this case, that the person is a newcomer from another frum community.
The issue is that we base our conclusions on an erroneous base – chitzoniyus. But that has been the trajectory of our community, where more attention goes to these aspects, and far less to the ones that matter most. Food for thought.
I do not see why this is a question. We have two Mishnayos in Pirkei Avos.
עשה לך רב וקנה לך חבר
עשה לך רב והסתלק מן הספק
The first is for general guidance, how to grow in עבודת ה’. The second is to answer your questions and doubts. We all need both. Awfully convenient if they are the same individual.
Jack:
Your intellectual dishonesty is awesome!
Firstly, American law has ample discussion of juveniles being tried as adults. There is reasoning behind this, and much is psychological in nature, and data based. It addresses the depravity involved in the commission of the crime that is beyond modification via maturation. You might be correct that no such principle is found in laws of other countries.
Secondly, your parallel to Kavanaugh is blatantly dishonest. It adopts the narrative that the Dems spun during the hearings, where there was no basis for the claims, and the several on-deck women with accusations were later identified to have been on the take from the Dems. One accuser turned on the tears in the hearing. She seemed articulate, but failed to provide anything that supported both her and Kavanaugh being in the same place at the same time. The @MeToo nonsense that was at high decibel levels was suddenly absent when similar accusations were made against Dems. This two faced garbage is unacceptable.
mdd1:
Wrong. A goy does not have a neshomoh. Murder of a goy is not retzicha. It is not permitted for other reasons. Thus, in this irrelevant discussion, the one doing the killing may not be a rodef.
ujm:
See prior response. I am not justifying or permitting killing a goy. The halachos relevant to rodef might not apply.
CY:
See above responses.
The armchair Monday morning quarterbacks are spouting nothing more intelligent than the narrative of their choice. Meanwhile, the training of the police officer and the protocols they follow are not considered a bit. This is a symptom of the disease of liberalism, and nothing cures it. All we can do is vote those evil libs out of office. We need to pass strong legislation that makes violence punishable with serious consequences. Sadly, DemocRats only want the criminals to walk freely, and to be rewarded for their savagery. If we value our lives more than the funding for yeshivos, we would solidly support opposing candidates in elections.
This whole thread is irrelevant. Who requires a goy to follow Torah law? Who says that the din of rodef applies to a goy? And what precisely is the issur to kill a goy? I learned that killing a goy is not murder. It’s bal tashchis. So why are we investigating rodef?
It’s a common problem in the CR that we seek to apply halacha to goyim. Outside of Sheva Mitzvos, they have no allegiance whatsoever to Torah Law. If these discussions were academically interesting, that might justify them. But they are simply foolish. I would have hoped the OP would have hypothesized that the players were Jews (chas veshalom) and inquired about the halacha then.
Goyim have no issur of mesira or arkaos, and they do not need their courts to apply the same restrictions to witnesses as halacha requires of beis din. But we hear such arguments here.
Yes, liberalism is a disease. And it has no cure.
Here’s a dose of reality. There has always been deviance, and it will always exist. Our Chachomim told us clearly, אלמלא מורא מלכות איש את רעהו חיים בלעו. Without law enforcement, chaos reigns. No problem recognizing that policing requires protocols. But the very notion of eliminating police, or the milder expression for that, “defunding the police” are exercises in destruction of an entire culture. Liberalism is a serious, cancerous disease, and it destroys anything healthy that it can affect. We need to vote this evil out of our lives.
ENS:
I read your statistical report and could not stop laughing. Do you seriously believe there is any significance to your report? Pardon, but your ignorance is showing.
Statistics show that 99.8 percent of all people who died in United States in the past 50 years have eaten pickles.
Now, does a number like this mean anything at all?
Rather than looking at who was president, how about the local – state and city governments? Who was mayor? Who was police chief? What laws and policies were in place at those times. Maybe you will encounter some numbers and facts that have relevance. Otherwise, spare us your moronic presentations about correlational statistics.
I seem to understand your screen name a bit better. You are pitted; your comment is the pits.
jackk:
Your efforts to push the liberal narrative are sickening. I will never buy it, and most others around read you clearly. So sad that someone articulate stoops to these lows.
I actually favor the immediate lethal force against any form of violent crime, if apprehended during the act. This is akin to the posuk of “bo bemachteres” that has forfeited his life, and no charges of murder can be levied against the one that eliminates him. However, American law has no such immunity, so I cannot advocate it. As for the rioters at the Capitol, they should all be arrested, tried and convicted, and locked up. No excuses for violence. Evil can exist in any political party.
Resisting arrest should be legally addressed with lethal force. That’s not a police state. It simply states that we will not coddle and support criminals, as liberals will do.
huju:
How fortunate it was only a scrape on the knee. Had it been the common cold, it would have taken 7 days.
I suspect that there are issues being mixed here, and this provokes some to make rash statements or generalize beyond what is realistic.
That families sometimes mingle and interfere in the lives of a young couple is ancient history. Certainly they can be supportive. Sadly, they are too often a significant source of negative energy. What might even be a legitimate conflict can easily get amplified into something horrific. Resolving that is much harder.
When a couple is feuding, it is quite common that their respective families choose sides. While understandable, it is most often disastrous. Instead of a conflict involving two individuals, it can deteriorate into the “Hatfields and the McCoys”, and degenerate into families becoming enemies with little reason to dislike each other.
The get refusal issue has been blown up greater that its real size. No, I do not deny that there are couples out there who should have been divorced by gett long ago, and are still not. And the generalized statements pointing to evil men and evil women are foolish. The greatest majority of gittin not being given yet are because of the difficulties in working out agreements to settle the affairs of financial support, custody and visitation, and related matters of the divorce. In this huge category, there are holdouts, both the men and the women, who are recalcitrant in the progress towards an agreement. And who is right or wrong is not established by statistics or by generalization. No two cases are the same.
Those cases that end up in court (often with halachic approval), tend to drag on longer. There are get refusers who choose to abuse their wives by withholding. There are also many who are given this refuser label unfairly. I have encountered women who make unrealistic demands, and threaten to make false police reports of abuse against them and/or the children. Others have stated openly that they will put out rumors of get refusal. Until hearing both sides, it is unwise and unfair to reach any conclusion about any individual case.
Seichel:
Did you read my comment? I am not engaging discussion about the halacha of whether these retzuos states kasher or possul. I can choose to defer to Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky shlit”a or to other poskim. My issue is the alarm that you are sounding. You brazenly claim that my retzuos are possul, and that the hundreds of mispallelim in the shul where I daven have retzuos that are possul. I am challenging that. And you have not responded with anything that suggests that there is basis for such proclamation. Please do so. If you cannot, it casts serious doubt about the veracity of anything you say.
That’s like making a blanket issur on chicken because there was a tragic incident where one store brought in treife chickens. How does anyone here truly know that that’s how almost all retzuos are made? I grant that there are some that are indeed posul. Did the quoted poskim address this as a “Most retzuos are possul” issue, or were they responding to specific shailos?
As with all such public proclamations, buyer beware. It is important to raise the issue for public awareness. But the sounding of an alarm is more often not warranted. Essentially, it brands most sofrim as well as stores that sell tefillin as dishonest and machshilei es horabim. Can anyone here provide evidence and warnings from the Gedolei Haposkim that substantiates this call for alarm?
Where one spouse tells the beis din that he/she wants to reconcile.
Hmm. That occurs in a rather huge percentage of cases, and this is an entirely different discussion. I have observed this happening many, many times. On occasion, there was rationale to this. There had been minimal to no effort at getting help. The basis for seeking to end the marriage was flimsy, or based on external forces rather than discord between them. Other times, the “defendant” or “nitvah” was fearful of the consequences of life after divorce.
The response of “But I want shalom bayis” is a well recognized tactic of delay. Many of these cases have rather good reason to end a marriage (not talking about halachic reasons), and remaining in the marriage by not granting or being willing to receive a get only throws wrenches into the mechanism. Dayanim see this regularly. Whoever does this is certainly being “not nice”. And I dare to suggest that only a limited percentage of these cases have a legitimate basis to stop the get process and redirect to professional help.
jackk:
Your refusal to recognize the facts is stunning. You should have the necessary intellect, but, alas, your extreme hate for Trump obscures your ability to think rationally.
There is no moral excuse to re-enter any Iran deal, nor is there any basis to remove or even limit sanctions. All Iran wants to do is to eliminate Israel, and that regime is a dire sworn enemy of US. Biden knows that, if there is any capacity for thought left to him in his dementia. Biden proves to be nothing more than the extension of Obama y”sh, who spent his two terms pacifying the terrorists and condemning Israel. All of Klal Yisroel should be davening for the demise of the entire Biden administration with the same fervor as wishing for the elimination of Amalek and the expunging of the remnants of his name.
Pardon a few words of Torah. Klal Yisroel experienced many enemies during their history. Mitzrayim, Midian, etc. None of these resulted in a mitzvah to eliminate them and any traces of their memory. Why? A simple explanation is that all of these enemies engaged in battle with the Yidden because they wanted something. Mitzrayim wanted their servitude, others wanted their land. Amalek attacked the Yidden just out of Mitzrayim, not passionate for their wealth, and not for land – as they were nomads in the desert. Amalek only wanted to kill Yidden, even without any personal gain. That is pure evil, and needs to be erased in totality.
We are once again encountering evil for evil’s sake. That is Iran. That is terror. And we should be taking the lesson of Amalek to seek the speedy erasure of any of these forces that extol terror and support it. And that means to day the regime of Iran and any version of support for it. Yes, I daven three times a day that Iran be eliminated, and included are any of its supporters. Today, this includes Biden and his administration.
The Twerskis of Milwaukee all went to public school there. Some of the next generation did as well, mostly younger grades.
I wonder about Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel who was later in yeshiva in Chicago. Does anyone here know that bit of history?
ujm:
I would like to see more study of the vaccine in its long term results. The research was promising, but no one can tell you that it is either good or bad for years down the road because that has not been observed yet. While I have apprehension, I will be getting vaccinated anyway.
When lay people begin generalizing upon specific incidents, we got a problem. I have heard some of these messages, and I am appalled at the extremes of stupidity involved. It is clear that the anonymity of the internet is an easy disguise for the conspiracy theorists to impact upon a community. And it is a disgrace that people who can fill stadiums for a Siyum Hashas, earn distinctions in Torah learning, and a host professions will blabble the baseless drivel about the vaccines.
Not an expert in the medical field, I have my personal hesitations, but will take the vaccine soon. But there is no room in my conscience to suggest that there are problems with any of the vaccines, nor to advise against taking them. I would like to know the qualifications of the earlier commenters who are against the vaccines.
Here is where Biden is essentially a third term for Obama y”sh (who actually stated that he would wish for this). People said about Obama that there was never a terrorist that he didn’t like. Truth is, there was never a terrorist he did not seek to support and fund. Anyone with an iota of sense knows that aid to Palestinians will not result in even a morsel of food for starving Palis. The building supplies will not end up providing them with homes and shelters. Every dime and every molecule will support terror efforts. We all know this. It is not conjecture or paranoia. It is fact that they have proven countless times over the past several decades. Well, Obama knew this, too, and began his first term with apologizing for supporting efforts to eliminate terror. Now, he gets his third term, and Biden is beginning it by once again providing everything the terrorists need to harm Israelis. I daven for Biden’s demise and oust from power daily. Him and the rest of the evil supporters of terror.
Schumer has a horrific track record in the Senate, and his position of power is projected to be a nightmare.
Firstly, in his long tenure in the Senate, he hardly brought forth and sponsored any bills of major importance. He may have cosponsored some, but that was after others did the work. He did sponsor such things as naming a library or something like that, matters of insignificance to the greater population.
Secondly, he has been vicious as a partisan. Making anti-Republican issues primary to his public service is not what a senator needs to do to fulfill his job.
Thirdly, he has lied repeatedly. Trump’s lies were of inconsequential matters. Schumer’s were on major issues. He has brought waves of liberalism that we all find as points of suffering. He has needed replacement years ago, and it is a wonder that he is given recognition as a politician.
There’s something terribly backwards here, and the system is part of the confusion. It may be nice for someone who has both a daughter and money to seek a boy who would be supported through kollel. It is quite another for boys to implement all the external trappings that they are the targets of these aidem seekers. That’s not their job. And most walk themselves into fantasies that fail them. I have known many of these disappointed souls who are more enamored with the image of the “learning boy” than they are with the learning itself. They should be pursuing wherever life takes them. If their Ahavas Hatorah is noteworthy, the wealthy shver will find him. Otherwise, they may sell themselves into a crash. That’s the backwards system. There is no obligation to make “klai kodesh” a career. Our tanoim and amoraim include a great many whose lifestyle was being “working boys”. Their dedication to learning was not the kollel label. Their product is studied by the “learning boys” of today. We have a label problem that is misdirecting boys and fooling gorls.
Ho hum. Another pro- anti- kollel thread. Sorry, but these are boring, repetitious, and mostly misguided. At the risk of being considered arrogant, I suggest that even those comments here that are written with fill conviction in the positions, are actually missing the boat.
Each individual is created by HKB”H with his/her unique combination of assets and liabilities. Someone with the gift of arts might be better suited, to the Klal and to himself to dedicate himself to a career where those talents and skills are used best. Someone with excellent analytical skills should utilize those G-d-given gifts towards a goal that becomes Kiddush Hashem. Etc. Those without the abilities to pursue full time learning should NOT be sent to kollel to warm a seat. And we have filled our kollel rosters with way too many of these whose liabilities are being pushed as a community agenda, not to exclude the “image” of the learning boy.
The kollel vs. daf yomi debate borders on the foolish. Those with the capacity for amkus should definitely pursue it. Those without should not, but pursue the mode of learning that suits their skills. Someone without the zitz-fleish to many hours of learning should not waste his time and others’ money to stay in kollel for long sedarim. Does anyone recall the history of Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a as a young boy? It is reported he made a siyum on Shas for his bar mitzvah. His father, the Steipler ZT”L, channeled his learning to match his skills.
It is horrible to think that someone stays in kollel because of parents’ images or because of reputation. The brainwashing in yeshivos (and girls schools) about learning boys and kollel careers is a gross disservice to the Klal, and fails to accomplish anything besides generating conflict for so many couples and families.
When we meet our Maker in BD shel Maaloh after 120, we will NOT be given a multiple choice exam on Maseches Chulin, Shabbos, or Bava Basra. We will be asked whether we established time to learn. Anyone who wants to learn and value learning can do it within whatever career is chosen. And some should do it via kollel while others should engage in other careers. Leaving kollel is not “hanging up the skates”. It is not different from switching chavrusas.
Lastly, Bored Guy, if you are takeh bored in Kollel, you don’t belong there.