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Some of the suggestions here make sense, others do not. Mine won’t add much to either category. But it is worth re-examining our attitudes toward smoking. They are generally cavalier. And perhaps that is more of a root of the problem, rather than the influences of friends, rebellion, etc.
In other threads in the CR, the discussions about smoking included the overwhelming majority of rabbonim and poskim who stated unequivocally that smoking (yes, even the single cigarette) is a clear issur mid’oraysa. It is just as permissible as eating pork, and we need to be reacting to any smoking with the same revulsion as chazzer. But we don’t. Every shul has a spot for drinking coffee, and most have locations outdoors where smokers can puff away. Either before or after tefilloh where they will face HKB”H who said the behavior of smoking is a violation of His ratzon. I marvel at the azus needed to do this.
Our frum magazines and papers have addressed this subject occasionally, and I have yet to hear of a single Yid that stopped smoking due to the articles in our press. I wondered about a Kol Koreh with signatures. I doubt there would be an effect. Probably because the same Rov who signed such an issur would allow a smoker to daven for the amud and have an aliyah in his beis hamedrash, which might not be the case had this smoker been mechalel Shabbos or eaten chazzer. We do not have a community consistent approach. So all the proclamations with signatures are worthless.
If someone has an answer for the adult population, we might stand a chance at fashioning an approach for our youth. But meanwhile, our kids see nothing wrong with it, not medically, not religiously. Our rantings about such consequences fall on deaf ears. If we don’t take ourselves seriously, why should they?
I overheard a discussion in shul some months ago in which someone asked why HKB”H listened to the tefilo of Yishmael, not Hagar, on which Rashi explains that the tefilo of a sick person for himself is preferred to that of another for him. Doesn’t this challenge the other Rashi that Hashem gives priority status to the tefilo for another? The suggested answer was to see what the posuk states was Hagar’s tefilo. “?? ???? ???? ????”, essentially asking to not have to witness the death of the child. This tefilo was not for the ???? but for herself. It may be natural to think of oneself when trouble with a family member exists, but it is unproductive. It does not help the one with the real problem, and it does not even help when this becomes a tefilo. So, yes, the parent might think of their own shame with regards to the child in trouble, but the direction and focus needs to change seriously to the real problem, not the side issues.
I refuse top leave my cell on vibrate during davening. Just think – if it does ring, some percent (say 5%) of my brain is busy with “Who called?”, “What did they want?”, “Do I need to call back?”, etc. That’s 5% that is not available for my concentration to daven. That’s not ok.
I routinely turn off my cell phone upon entering the building of the beis hamedrash. It is unfair, rude, and a public disturbance to have a phone ringing when others are davening or learning. On occasion, someone forgets to shut the ringer, and it does disturb the minyan. The only remedy is to recognize that Hashem allows distractions by tefilo, since the Satan wants to interfere with out speaking to HKB”H directly. It is there for me to intensify my focus, not to give mussar to yenem. If I was someone whose mussar might be accepted, I might have another mission.
I choose to focus on myself, not anyone else.
? ” ???? ??? ” ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???, ???? ???? ????? “??? ????? ?????? ????? ????” (?????? ???? ??? ?”?)
??? ???? ?????? ?’ ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???……… ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ???, ?????? ?????? ??????, ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????.
The content of this thread is becoming irritating. It sounds like the equating of “attractive” with “provocative”. The former is acceptable, though not the ideal goal, as we are told explicitly “??? ??? ???? ?????”. The latter is plainly assur, and constitutes a violation of creating challenges of hirhurim. It is as assur for men to be triggered as it is for women to be the cause of such triggers.
Couples should spend enjoyable time together, and it does not need to involve the glorifying of taavos. There are forms of enjoyment that couples should have which are not meant for publicity, neither in the actual involvement nor in the public discussion of them.
My suggestion is this thread either be closed, or the comments limited to the aspects of this subject that are appropriate for exposure and public discussion.
Are you suggesting that your marriage is (to some degree) conditional on appearance? How you would answer this would make a world of difference in how to respond appropriately to your opening question.
So you seem to feel that the fact that Therapists do not have veto power over a Rebbi’s curriculum is a problem.
You seem to admit that the problems now-a-days have gotten worse.
You also admit that in schools nowadays there are trained therapists to assist or take care of children with issues. This was not the case 15 years ago. It is the case now. So the school structure has changed, and those responsible for certain parts of chinuch have changed.
TLIK – This logic is comical. Trained therapists for special needs children does NOT modify the chinuch of the yeshiva in any way whatsoever. What have you been drinking?
The change has meant the bringing in of outside secularly trained therapists.
The problems have grown worse, many times worse than they ever were before.
Incidentally the exact same trajectory has been seen before in the PS system.
As for the Rabbonim you quote. No, I have not read most of them excluding Rav Shlomo Wolbe zt”l and I find it interesting that you quote him. I suggest you look for a small soft covered volume of a bunch of Rav Wolbe zt”ls letters that were published in honor of his shloshim. One of the longest letters that Rav Wolbe writes is one where he goes through the basis of psychology, its founders, his issues with two main “hashkofos” of psychology (one of them being self esteem) writes that he believes that psychology is responsible for the widespread Kefira in Bechira that is found today. He ends by writing that the “war” of our generation is to be “marchik”, to push away the “daas’ of psychology from our camp as much as possible! The letter is brilliantly written in the methodical crystal clear manner that anyone who has read of Rav Wolbe’s works is accustomed to so I would recommend you find the Sefer and learn it. In this letter he makes reference to a much longer piece on the topic which he included in a Journal in Eretz Yisroel.
And by the way, yes, if my car is broken I bring it to a mechanic because mechanics have demonstrated they have the ability to fix cars. Psychology has been around for decades and the only thing they have demonstrated is widespread failure everywhere its “teachings” have been adopted.
My Rabbonim consider things treif?
You have no idea who my “Rabbonim” are, nor what they consider treif.
To state that the “professionals” have not been allowed to influence our system means that you are willfully ignoring facts. Which Litvish elementary school does not have a full lineup of resources of professional therapists to deal with any and everything?
In Lakewood there are massive organizations that actually command a good portion of the school district budget providing therapists for everything.
Chinuch has not changed? Discipline is not a “last resort”?
If you wish to change what are facts on the ground at least don’t sound like a tape recorder.
TLIK – The only tape recorder I am playing is the one that records what passes my phone and ears.
And about the role modeling. Yes that is 100% accurate. But guess what. Role Modeling begins at home. Rabbeim and teachers change each year. Parents don’t. And if the Parents don’t want to realize that they are the ones responsible to raise their children, they are the ones that must instill permanent values in their children , well then there really is not much to do.
Ben Levi:
You compare apples with oranges, and this is illogical. Therapists deal with the casualties of the system, and these have been growing steadily. The “professionals” have not been permitted to influence the “system”, since your rabbonim consider their Torah-consistent ideas treif. So our yeshivos continue with practices that are NOT mesorah, NOT scientific, and are wrecking our youth. Those who provide the guidance to young people prior to marriage are from the “system”, not professionals. Therapists have many shattered lives to repair when this holy guidance and direction fails. Professionals have contributed nothing to this. They are expected to fix the damage later. You are correct – there are some professionals who do not succeed. But the tide is against them, and they did NOT make that tide.
Every professional I know (many) has a decent track record of successes. Ask them how many of their cases are casualties of rabbonim, chosson/kallah teachers, educators, etc. who messed up badly by assuming they could handle matters beyond their domain and skills. I am not addressing the non-Jewish population, and I frankly care little about them at the moment.
You blame the JO articles. They are unrelated to the problem. It did not introduce professionals into the fabric of our society. They were already here. And there are many Torah guided training programs since that time. The frum professionals (hundreds of them) are under Torah guidance all the time. Ask them. Visit a Nefesh Conference, meet them, talk to them, instead of your assumptions and failed generalities.
The academic practices we need to advocate for are precisely those that existed in the days of real melamdim. Individual attention. Focus on developing cheshek for Torah and Avodas Hashem. De-emphasis of discipline, which was intended to be the last resort. Role modeling. Chanoch lenaar al pi darko. All dictates of the Torah Hakedosha, not goyishe professionals. Our chinuch “system” fails dismally in this. Check the latest seforim on chinuch. They are fabulous. Now examine our mosdos, and assess how many of the menahalim and mechanchim have developed expertise in these seforim. Not in educational psychology, but in seforim. The percentage is microscopic. How many yeshivos require training, yes, Torah based training, as a pre-requisite to be a melamed? Answer, zero. I’m aware that there are yeshivos that consider the training programs Aish Dos (Torah Umesorah) a disqualification, and they reject anyone that has this training. And, it is fully endorsed by gedolei Yisroel.
Chasunah Takanos? That will save the world. Come on. I don’t challenge the need for this, but this has nothing to do with the failures of marriages and yeshivos. Get real.
A therapist needs to show successes, but not in the world scene. he does not treat it. He treats the client in his office, and needs to be successful with the yechidim that seek his help. And B”H this has worked rather well. Therapists pump out the water, they cannot stop the flood. That needs to be done by the kehillos and the gedolim that lead them. Chasunah Takanos will not solve that.
I’m not missing the points at all. I have not answered some questions, but some have no easy answers. But you missed my points completely.
Ben Levi:
I will stop responding to your woefully blind perceptions about the present and the past. I happen to be extremely well placed, knowing much in the worlds of chinuch and other aspects of the frum community. I can’t say more without full disclosure, and the CR is not the place for that. I will also state that I have had these discussions with gedolei Yisroel, and there is recognition of considerable truth. Our crisis matzav is NOT due to the influences of frum professionals any more than Hurricane Sandy was caused by frum plumbers.
Ben Levi:
Wolf is correct. Therapists deal with the most difficult cases, many of which are on their way to divorce long before their forst session. There are many outside factors involved. What complicates the issue is that the marital therapist is only occasionally the first responder. The couple has likely turned to numerous others, and eventually they come to the therapist, with a good possibility of being misguided by these untrained do gooders. I don’t have a problem with an initial approach to the Rov, but that Rov must be aware of much more than his review of his favorite mussar sefer to know the limits of what he can do to help. He must move the cases that require to the appropriate level of care. He must also refrain from the taking sides and other such interventions that jeopardize the chances of reconciliation. The Rov can handle certain things, and should have training for this. But it is a greater and more important skill for the Rov to know when to refer the couple for other interventions. Sadly, too few know what to do. Intuition is just not enough.
The Rov with a 50% failure rate is in trouble. But having referred a consulting couple to a professional who is equipped is successful, whether the marriage is saved or not.
Yeshivos have a difficulty with examining their product. That a talmid completes HS and a few years beis medrash, then goes to Eretz Yisroel to yeshiva there is not indicative of anything. Same goes for the bochur that comes home for Yom Tov, and spends 12 hours a day in the nearby shul or beis hamedrash learning. It points to the academics, which are not the greatest portion of the needed chinuch. If the bochur helped his parents to prepare for Yom Tov, spent menchlich time with family, and reserved a chunk of time to learn, all the while behaving with midos tovos, then we have a successful product. But no one looks at this. We attend to their capacity to ignore the world while they learn for hours and write chidushei Torah. And these are NOT the traits that produced gedolei Yisroel through the generations. The yeshivos that dedicate themselves to working with children with issues are an additional step away from pointing to successes. Anyone with elementary knowledge of developmental psychology knows that children are not fully developed in psyche until the 20’s. Mental illness usually develop between ages 10-12 through early 20’s. Assessments during these years are provisional, since the evaluator is shooting at a moving target. Many of the children reflecting academic or learning issues have additional conditions without clear symptoms to allow for diagnosis or focused treatment. Same goes for the behavioral disorders – one does not know enough about them for a while. Success rates are difficult to measure, and setting the criteria to measure is even harder.
The current practices in chinuch bear little resemblance to that which was handed down through our mesorah. There are problems everywhere. There are issues in our children which are challenging, there are lifestyle and parenting issues that are alarming, and there are chinuch problems that are nightmarish. Whitewashing any of these is grossly irresponsible.
It is a far cry from having zero security to making a school into a lockdown, prison-like, hermetically sealed fortress. Neither option is good. And despite all efforts, keeping safe from madmen lunatics is simply impossible.
I feel that yeshivos should have cameras anyway, but the recent type of tragedy is not why. Just think for a moment – we can’t prevent tragedies, but we can at least catch the perptrator afterward. Now that’s a consolation. Now, I feel better.
Sorry – I don’t know how to change fonts to display the dialogue with Ben Levi.
Outside appearances are the problem?
Absolutely yes. I am in no way singling out Satmar, and nothing I said was intended as a commentary to the recent court conviction.
Are you aware of the fact that the most stringent Chasunah Taknos were enacted successfully by the Satmar Community to counter exactly what you wrote about?
Yes. I repeat, this was about the frum community in general, not singling out Satmar. Every single group has its outstanding features.
How about the 5TJT consult with them how to successfully implement what was considered impossible?
I have no clue what this consult was, and it would be dishonest to comment on it.
Oh on including every child, do you know how Satmar runs their school system if someone does not have money to pay tuition ask a member of the Chassidus how much they are asked to pay.
That may well be unique. Ask anywhere else. Torah Umesorah is addressing this issue, as expelling due to unpaid tuition is commonplace in the new York area. There are hundreds of kids without yeshivas and schools, and money is one aspect of the problem.
You’ll be surprised at the answer. It’s about 15,000 dollars less than in the Five Towns.
Real Chinuch?
How come Satmar has managed to build a huge network of Bikur Cholim completly staffed by the women that are products of their school system. All volunteers, waiting in line for the chance to do chessed for Klal Yisroel.
And don’t tell me about others.
But Satmar takes it to another level and we all learnt from Satmar.
I am litvish and I know it.
And the people growing up to take roles in the tremendous chesed that defines that community have gone through their school system that infused their very essence with a sense of achrayus and caring to all of Klal Yisroel. Real caring. Not speeches about caring. I lived it when I was hospitalized and saw for weeks on end the work they do that frankly I would not have believed if I had not seen it with my own eyes. And no they don’t publicize it and they don’t want thanks. One of the Satmar Women replied when I said that you. In the zchus of the Chesed may Klal Yisroel not need it anymore.
The chinuch that produced the hundreds of women that form the backbone of that organization is failed?
How about the 5TJT ask them why the girls coming out of their school system are so different than the ones coming out of the Five Towns? And don’t answer with the minority. You and I both know there are exceptions. I chose to focus on the 90%. You can focus on the 10%.
The educated Social Workers who consult? Educated by whom? Frum Ehrileche people or irreligious professors that are for the most part atheists?
See response above.
They should teach Satmar about chinuch? About Marriage?
If we needed lessons about divorce we could learn from them, after all they do have experience.
Funny. The average Jewish divorce is more about cruelty than terminating a failed marriage. The lawyers make out like bandits. The frummest look for the shyster lawyers and toanim. The rabbonim are snookered into taking a side, and participating in destroying another person and family. We need to learn a lot.
And how to care for cats and dogs they could teach us also.
But about raising kids Al Tahras HaKodesh. I’ll trust the people that dedicate their lives to Torah first.
Ben Levi:
There are so many reasons why things are worse now, and it has nothing to do whatsoever with the scientific training of professionals having input into the system. If we would be so silly, we could blame it on telephones. Our yeshivos and youth were better off before there were phones everywhere. Or same goes for unleaded gasoline. You’re being ridiculous.
Our yeshivos fell into the trap with so many others where we have placed academic excellence on a pedestal, as we did with “traditional values”, at the expense of true chinuch. Our yeshivos have refined their approaches to discipline to be so much more powerful (actually brutal) than ever before. We can embarrass or shame any child into submission, and we can threaten with suspensions or expulsions to extort conforming behavior or tuition monies. All this is viewed as being aggressive “lichvod Hashem Yisborach” when it is actually much the opposite. We crowd children into classrooms creating group dynamics that were never modeled by our predecessors. Our skills to manage such classrooms are not archaic, they are frankly abusive and purposeless. HKB”H is uninvited.
We have sunk to the lows of a photographic society. It’s all about appearance. We cannot consider a shidduch because a sibling of a prospect has issues, or someone wears different levush. We know all about our “leaders” in their appearances in photos, at tashlich, Hoshana Rabah, burning chometz, benching Chanukah Neiros, dancing at simchos, but there is nary a glimpse of their midos tovos. All we know about these leaders is the light bulbs, crowds, and other forms of pomp that surround them. We should all be disillusioned, and we should be thirsting for the true Yir’as Hashem and Ahavas Hashem that should be our basic source of energy. No, technology did not take that away, nor did the college education of the many professionals we have in the fields of medicine, law, mental health, accounting and business, education, and other sciences. We urbanized our lifestyles into patterns that would not be recognizable to the gedolim of earlier generations.
Things are worse, because we are worse. And, Ben Levi, join the rest of us in accepting responsibility for your contribution. Now, let’s re-examine where we should be heading, and let’s rechart our life course to go there. ?????? ?’ ???? ??????. We cannot even be serious in this venture if we stay glued to the external perceptions, believe that someone who looks “the part” is necessarily so, if we allow our yeshivos and schools to run “compliance programs” as priorities to full rounded education of Torah, its values, and the expectations for real Yiddishkeit. We cannot expect marriages to succeed if we make so many other activities more important than a couple growing together. Does it really matter to which parents the young couple goes for Yom Tov? We cannot expect our children to learn honesty about money and other matters if we conceal, lie, and cheat in our personal affairs and our mosdos. No, it’s not the influence of the educated social worker who consults to the yeshiva. It’s more likely the administrators. The incidence of abuse is not the result of consulting professionals, but the blind assumptions that anyone in a position of power has clean hands. What happened to supervision and accountability?
Ben Levi, you ask good questions, but are seriously mistaken in your assumptions of the answers. I just outlined a list of stuff here. There is a serious need to change our foundations, not to modernize, but to return to the chinuch approach that our zaides used. If anything, professionals have looked to help filter the maladaptations of the system to the challenges of the day. It is not about modern ideas, it is about true Torah chinuch, which is harder than ever to find today, anywhere, Chassidish, Litvish, Sefardic, MO, and whatever else.
Ben Levi:
Well written, and I hear the message. Just that you pointed to some of the shortcomings of today’s society, without recognizing that there is so much more that is responsible for our current disastrous matzav.
Our lifestyles are founded greatly on appearance. Yes, image. That is why we have the audacity to call our yeshivos, threaten them to withdraw our children if they allow a certain child into their yeshiva. We effectively take control by our “image” to stop others from benefitting from Torah chinuch. Our dress codes in school have departed from the mission of chinuch (though teaching tznius is a valid portion of chinuch). We demand the extremes of pomp and flair for our Roshei Yeshivos, Chassidishe Rebbes, etc. while missing the proliferation of Yir’as Shomayim that needs to surround these people. We are far more preoccupied with “Kavod Hatorah” than with insuring “No Child Left Behind”.
We deserve the grime that covers the frum community (Hashem Yishmereinu) because we empower people to do that which they cannot. Therapists without any training in the field, educators, including menahalim, rebbes, teachers, and others who have zero background in how to conduct their jobs, and countless spokespeople who may have oratory skills but lack the grounding of knowledge on their subjects. That disgrace rears its ugly head from time to time, and has done so here.
Every rebbe needs to exercise all the good judgment to keep himself protected. Yes, we must live defensively. Not because of the rogues out there, but because of ourselves. We cannot be so utterly stupid as to point to the latest conviction, and bemoan the anti-semitism because he wears a shtreimel on Shabbos. (I don’t know that anti-semitism wasn’t a factor, but that’s not the problem of the moment.)
Therapists are in authoritative roles, and must recognize that they can be exposed by their clients. How do they protect themselves? By texting young women and girls during the night? By seeing female clients in their offices at hours when the only females they see are their own wives? By trashing hilchos yichud on a regular basis?
I will not cry for those rebbeim that choose to leave the field. They will probably be happier with better incomes elsewhere. I only hope that the new crop of applicants for their positions have training in the field, and bring responsible skills to the job, not the pseudo-qualification of having learned in kollel for multiple years.
You cry for the convict’s family. Perhaps they deserve some sympathy. After all, they did not commit any crimes. But we must ask, where were his wife and children when he took young girls and women behind locked doors, in an empty building, at odd hours of the night? We ask today the questions that should have been asked years ago. How silly.
Yes, today’s world is quite different. We have issues of keeping cell phones off in shul. We have instant communication, whether by phone, text, or email. We can shop for anything, products, services, even inappropriate materials (chas veshalom) without leaving our chairs. Our children have self-esteems that are fragile, and are easily damaged. Not by having cheaper shoes than their classmates, but by the ridicule and bizarre verbal and emotional abuse that happens everyday by bullies and poorly trained mechanchim. We can no longer protect our children from knowing the latest news, whether it is the OJ trial, the Penn State scandal, or our latest community schmutz. By quite young ages, our children know much more about things than we could have. Is there a 10 year old who does not what ebay or Amazon are? (I grew up knowing that Amazon was a river in Africa.)
We cannot legitimately compare today’s world with yesteryear, and drawing comparisons is either an effort at comedy or plain foolish. We have major hurdles to overcome if we are to cope with the decadent world of today, and it is NOT the fault of how this latest affair was handled. That jury might reflect the tzuris of our time, but is not a cause for anything, besides someone who was a public menace being put away. Yes, he deserves the opportunity to appeal, though I believe his guilt. How we got here is our fault, and we need to examine ourselves before blaming others.
chalilavchas:
You are badly mistaken. He has never kept anyone’s child safer, not for a minute, not for a second. I know many victims who have interacted with him extensively. His preoccupation is not about making anyone’s life safer. It is totally about bashing anyone and everyone. Why he has picked up the gauntlet of abuse victims is curious (not that it is not a legitimate cause). But listen to his hotline. His head is where his underwear should be. He takes every single name he gets and proceeds to campaign to destroy it, whether guilty or innocent, whether related to issues of abuse or not. I have monitored the abuse scene for several years, and I have yet to encounter one thing Rosenberg did that was effective in saving or protecting a single child. He made lots of noise about a subject that was being swept under the rug. He established relationships with media – much of which has been detrimental to Klal Yisroel, and often interfered with the DA office working to prosecute perpetrators. He is a menace to the entire Klal, not a protector of anyone. We need morally responsible people to uproot molesters, get them into courts and prisons, and to promote safety programs throughout the community. Not Rosenberg.
Ben Levi:
You are wrong on many counts. The day is too short to list them all, but here’s a start.
Our chinuch system underwent changes, but maladaptive ones. There was once a semblance of responsibility to insure “No Child Left Behind”. No longer. Any child with issues is prime for expulsion or not retaining him/her next year. And it is the rare exception that such a child will be offered a second of time and effort to find another, “more appropriate” placement. Classes were smaller. Rebbes and teachers connected with their talmidim, establishing relationships, many which continue through adulthood. Such bonds are rare today. A talmid was never denied admission or withheld from attending because of tuition/financial issues. Today, it is commonplace. Discipline was appropriate for the average talmid. Today, we are plagued by use of rejection and shame as routine disciplinary tools. Yes, that is the abuse that is far greater an ingredient in the OTD issues than physical abuse or molestation. The average rebbe today (this is decreasing due to the advent of some training programs that are underutilized) is a product of kollel, with zero experience in dealing with education. The quickest way to control a classroom is discipline, but it provides zero education. Yeshivos have developed more elaborate ways to punish students, but few do much to build character, self esteem, or teach the basics of emunah or cheshek for Torah and Mitzvos. Today’s children are very different from a generation ago, with major distractions, very different social norms, and require new sets of skills to make it through life. Torah is great (does not need my haskomoh), but until our schools and yeshivos learn how to meet the educational needs of our youth, we will continue to have fallout. It is NOT the introduction of “secular” knowledge. It is the failure to do chinuch, to teach. Discipline has a very tiny place in chinuch, but our yeshivos invest the greatest portion of resources and time into this. Build students, don’t crush them.
The most appalling thing is that the post about Rosenberg is turning into a discusson about abuse. The two subjects are worlds apart, and anyone with a conscience knows that. The subject of abuse (all forms, not just molestation) is a serious issue, it extends far beyond anyone’s belief, and the frum community has fared quite poorly (understatement) to address it in a meaningful way. Rosenberg has accomplished nothing besides making noise and creating a huge chilul Hashem.. He is not in cherem because of his advocacy. There are hundreds of people, from within the rabbinate, from the mental health professionals, to some in chinuch, to askanim, to many others who engage in true advocacy. They look to provide prevention programs, training for those in sensitive capacities, even parenting lessons. Rosenberg has dedicated his activities to besmirching any name he gets, regardless of whether the person is guilty or not. He takes credit for countless successes that are not his, and I’m not privy to name them. He has zero connection to the arrest and conviction of this week’s verdict, though it would be typical of him to claim credit. He spouts endless curses at every Rov who disagrees with him and his tactics. For him, speaking nivul peh on his hotline, and exposing children to a public venue of issues that we are commanded to address in private is a “mitzvah”. He accepts no guidance or psak halacha from anyone. And that approach is more important to him than the saving of a single neshomoh.
I don’t condone violence or injuring anyone. But his cherem was well earned. He is not the tzaddik some proclaim him to be. He is a thorn to Klal Yisroel, claiming credit for the damage and chilul Hashem he causes. I only hope his current injuries (none of which I condone) will silence the flow of garbage that spews from him. Let true advocates with Torah values pick up the mission of protecting our children from the monsters in our midst.
farrocks:
Your comment was irresponsible. Before making such pronouncements, get some education. Here’s some (you’ll need lots more):
Among abusers, there is a statistically significant percentage who report a history of being an abuse victim. The numbers are not overwhelming, but matter in a statistical manner. Beyond theory, no one can document that there is a causal relationship here.
The figures for abuse victims who go on to become perpetrators of abuse is no different from what is found among the general population.
So the research does not help anyone very much. No scientific support for the belief that one can identify an abuse victim from a current abuser, nor vice versa.
I find it interesting to read the comments of lay people, however intelligent, about issues that are intricate and complex, but totally out of their domain of expertise. I am not against consulting a Rav, but I am skeptical that there are many whose advice is useful in such situations. Rabbonim are rarely trained or experienced in providing guidance on matters of shalom bayis. The role for a Rav is to provide support, referral to professionals and needed community resources, and a helping hand (that is carefully restricted from intervening or taking sides with anyone).
The generalizations in earlier comments are as entertaining and amusing as they are dangerous. Are all children of divorce “damaged”? I hope not. Their lot in life has additional challenges due to divorce. But an intact family with poor shalom bayis is also damaging. Is divorce the answer? Sometimes yes, and sometimes not. Only professionals can help decide (with syatta dishmaya, of course).
Someone noted that the therapist and Rav do not make the decision. That is correct. But the professional guidance to make a decision properly, without falling prey to the overwhelming emotions of the crisis is critical.
The divorce process is also complex. There are many aspects that are not common knowledge, and require professional guidance. There are many frum professionals who know the courts, the lawyers, the to’anim, and batei din. They are useful in helping someone going through this process in utilizing the needed resources. It’s easy to be misguided, even by people who mean well and are otherwise nice, respectful people.
Someone said, “People marry out of love, and divorce out of hate.” There are heaps of negative emotion when marriages split, and it is a challenge to deal with all this. Get help and guidance. Don’t assume a Rav, with all his smichos and areas of halachic expertise is learned and experienced in this parsha.
Competition in the chinuch world is simply not enough to accomplish much. Let’s examine things. To purchase at a store, one can choose to buy it at store A versus store B. Why? Because it is cheaper, or perhaps there is better service. One might make the choice to provide the parnosoh to someone known rather than a stranger. But the product is basically the same. Chinuch bears little to no resemblance to this. Yeshivos are all different. The only common theme is that they house the child for the duration of the school day. The choice element is negligible, as many talmidim do NOT really have much choice where to go, and this refers to parents as well. The school has the option to reject and application, or to keep the talmid out of yeshiva if tuition is not paid. The parent is stuck at that point, and the leverage is such that money comes from somewhere.
The actual competitive issue in chinuch is the mirage that one yeshiva learns more than another, their talmidim get tested by a Rav outside of the yeshiva and do well, or the “name” of the yeshiva is touted as “metzuyan”. These are all fluff, as the production of the talmid who will remain steeped in Torah and Yir’as Shomayim, even if a member of the working world, is still the individual result of a family plus a 1:1 relationship with a rebbe somewhere along the line. It depends on many factors, including one’s individual nature (usually self-motivation), Syatta Dishmaya, and other elements that converge for the single talmid. Our chinuch system contributes quite little to this, and no yeshiva can lay claim to being the producer of the true talmid chochom. They do make such washing statements, but these are empty words. Examine any such talmid, and you will find too many other contributing factors.
No one is really competing for anything today. Yeshivos charge whatever they can get away with, and once they have you, tough. Discussions about midos do not pertain to yeshivos or schools. That issue is for another thread.
Aside from the differences in laws that apply to Lakewood versus New York City, you must remember that Lakewood has a mayor that at least cares about the frum community. In New York, we have Bloomberg who has declared war on almost every issue that we held dear. It is only through the intercession by various politicians and askanim/organizations that we do not witness governmental attacks on many other frum issues.
Health:
If her husband is in town (and they are NOT behind a locked door etc.), it is not yichud. There are plenty of halachos that discuss these details. All I said was that yichud is assur, and therapy does not render an issur to become heter. What precisely is your argument?
I know this sounds nasty, but I have been forced to take a different position about the collectors in shul. Assuming they already davened, I was not there to disturb them during davening. I believe I am justified to claim the same courtesy.
Today, the desperation for funds is so great that some of these collectors are willing to violate the basics, by insisting on collecting during parts of davening where one may not be mafsik, by insisting that one give more than they wanted to give, and by shortchanging (“I only give $18 change for a 20, because it equals chai”). Some fail to get permission from the Rov or gabbai to speak after chazoras hashatz to make their “sales pitch”.
One can certainly continue to give tzedokoh at the same levels as before without rewarding these collectors who are bothersome. I say this fully aware that HKB”H sends these opportunities to us to test us. HKB”H deals with us midah kineged midah, and gives us in a manner similar to how we give others. I do feel bad for those who are stuck stooping to collect donations from others. I do not envy anyone in fund raising, nor do I have opinions how to do it successfully. I do know what offends me.
Some time ago, I offered $1 to one of these collectors who insisted on a much larger donation, which I simply could not afford. He handed me back the $1, and refused my efforts to give it to him again. I allowed him to see that I was placing it in one of the pushkas in shul, since I had already designated it for tzedokoh. I feel for him, but that does not place money in my possession to be available for tzedokoh.
I mourn the loss of chashivus of this precious mitzvah.
What makes a wedding anniversary into a goyishe zach? If it provides an excuse for couples to celebrate their bonding and connection, it generates the ahavas ish ve’ishto that Shlomo Hamelech considered a metaphor for ahavas Hashem. It is a wonderful thing for couples to rekindle their love for each other. Perhaps it would be nice to find excuses for such events to be celebrated more than once per year. Think what it would do for their shalom bayis, and what it could model for their children.
If the bills bear his name, should not the invitations?
Health:
It is not absurd at all. Actually, there is abundant discussion in the early literature in psychoanalysis that the connections that develop between a client and therapist can be quite intense, and border on the romantic. It is the responsibility of the therapist to insure that these feelings are kept in check, and only permitted to continue so that the necessary therapy can work. Once the underlying issues have been resolved, this “transference” experience must be resolved to allow the client to achieve full emotional independence. Likewise, the therapist experiences feelings toward the client, called “counter-transference”. The therapist must also be very conscious of these feelings so that they do not move the therapist beyond appropriate boundaries. While psychoanalysis is almost obsolete as a therapeutic modality, many of the concepts are universally recognized as relevant regardless of the therapeutic approach.
If there are emotions that occur, additional steps must be taken to insure that boundaries are not compromised or challenged.
Let’s address halacha. Yichud is assur. That is halacha psukah. No one can challenge that, and excuses are irrelevant. The questions are how to guarantee that a therapy encounter keeps within halachic guidelines. One can safely avoid opposite gender client-therapist situations. But reality is that it is almost unavoidable, and there must be measures taken to prevent yichud – which is assur. Open doors, having arranged for someone to enter unannounced, etc.
Now let’s take another angle for those less inclined to recognize hilchos yichud. Play therapist. You see a client of the oposite gender. One day, after a session where the client was unhappy with the outcome of a session, he or she makes an accusation that you engaged in physical contact, and that he or she was abused by that. Your professionalism, your license, and your career are now on the line. Add to that the possibility of court action with legal costs (almost never covered by any form of insurance including malpractice insurance). Your working life is over. Yes, over. If you would have insured that hilchos yichud were upheld, the accusation would have little chance of being made or sticking, as it would not be believable. So for practical reasons, not just following halacha, yichud laws are critical.
There are many ways to cope with the problems of yichud. One is not considered a “machmir” if steps are taken to prevent yichud, one is just following basic halacha. Whether or not a surveillance camera qualifies to block yichud is a shailoh addressed by contemporary poskim. Having an open door with the possibility that one may enter the premises without prior notification is clearly a better choice.
It is also poor judgment to conduct individual sessions at odd hours of the night when interruption is all but impossible. Even an open door is probably useless at such times, and halacha would prohibit the relationship altogether. Now, Cough Weberman Cough.
If saichel is being used, gender matching the client to the therapist is a must. As with any rule, there are exceptions. It is virtually impossible to avoid the issue altogether, but it is certainly beyond recognized morals for anyone to “specialize” in working davka with the opposite gender. It creates continual shailos of yichud. There is a known record of some of those who claim such “specialty” of working with opposite gender clients, whether doing kiruv, counseling, therapy, etc. of becoming involved in non-professional ways. Only a select few of these situations make it to public knowledge, and get attention in the media and the blogs. One should wonder why anyone would put themselves at such risk.
iced:
If there is specific agreement on confiscating objects, perhaps you’re right, though it is still immoral and bad chinuch. But as a term stuffed into a contract which a parent is under pressure to sign, it is not a truly agreed term. This has precedent in both halacha and in secular law. So it remains an illegal act, and is best “legitimized” but not kashered by inclusion in a contract.
Rabbaim:
Placing a condition that is illegal in a contract does not legitimize it. If confiscating and keeping an item is stealing, then it cannot be included in a contract. That clause does not make it hefker or generate yiush. It does reflect on the morals of the one who demanded it. It also points to the bullying that occurs in the contracts with yeshivos, where we parents are forced to agree to prevent our children from being rejected or refused.
Iced: I worked for the Dept of Ed. There was no policy about cell phones as you described. In fact, the suggestion to ban cell phones was rejected by all the leaders in the Dept and the NYC government because doing so would prevent children and parents from communicating in case of emergency. 9/11 was the demise of that suggestion, and it has never passed muster since then. We were allowed to take the cell phones, but to return them at the end of the school day. If the infractions were more serious, we were allowed to notify parents that the phones would be returned to them, not the child.
Here are a few direct quotes (translation mine):
??? ??? ?????? ?????? – ??”? ???? ???? – ?????? ??”? ????? ???? ?????? ????”?
It is the right of the mechanech to confiscate a toy that is being played with during the shiur, and it is his obligation. But there are different ways of taking it. It can be taken with grabbing and anger, or it can be taken in a pleasant manner…… It is proper to set a date to return the object, Friday, every Rosh Chodesh, or the end of the term. If it is an object that should not be returned to the child, it should be given to the parents with the message that they should insure the child does not bring it to school.
??? ????? ?’ ?? ????? ?????? – ??”? ????? ???? ????????? – ??????? ???? ????? ?”?
(Free translation) The question is posed whether the mechanech confiscating is muttar, since the issur of genaivoh applies to children as victims just like adults. If the assumed heter is that it facilitates limud haTorah, it falls with the category of ???? ???? ??????, and it is forbidden. The Mishneh Halachos (From R’ Menashe Klein ZT”L) says this is not technically stealing because of the responsibility of the melamed. However, to confiscate an object with no intention of returning it, is assur.
In the above references, the issue of whether this “chinuch” actually teaches a negative lesson (teaching the child that stealing is permissible) is not addressed. That is addressed by R’ Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, which is the basis for his psak to not take it.
I wish to add one note to my last comment. Those who wish to advocate for chinuch, believing that the systems in place are perfectly in tune with promoting ratzon Hashem, consistently blame each and every problem observed to “dysfunctional families”.
I ask these people, “If you discovered a talmid who reported having a parent who confiscated things without returning them just to teach a lesson and comply with rules, would you brand that family as dysfunctional?” We know the answer. Well, allowing a yeshiva to carry out a consequence that is otherwise considered abusive or dysfunctional is self-contradictory.
Yitzchok2:
I disagree, and strongly so. Having observed this practice for years, it is clear that it can be done in a manner in which it is educational. That is what I would want for my child. That rebbe returns the item, either at the end of the day or week, or to the parents. Keeping the item is unquestionably ????. Even if you remove the technicality of it via contract (if that actually works), it is still bad chinuch. It is punishing, not educational, and that is NOT called chinuch.
Your other point is simple fantasy. You noted that your parental wish for your child’s best education is also that of the rebbe. I beg to differ. That is not a given anymore. Just how many rebbes in classrooms do you know who deicated their lives to continuing the transmission of Torah? Inquire a bit more, and discover that the overwhelming majority entered the field out of lack of capability of being eligible for other fields. Backing into chinuch sometimes works, where the awe of the task generates some internal motivation. But that does not explain the lives of a huge percentage of rebbes and teachers, who just need a job and a salary. I know this sounds like sour grapes, but the frequency of interaction I have with the education field plus the parents, like me, who patronize it, makes optimism harder to grasp.
It is also alarming to watch the development of stricter and more abusive forms of “discipline” while the chinuch system tries so hard NOT to be mekarev the talmidim to connect them to the chain of transmission of Torah. Read through the contracts with yeshivos. Does the document highlight the responsibilities of the yeshiva to make your child feel nurtured and encouraged to progress in Torah based growth, or is the bulk of the terms forms of retribution for breaking rules? I read through many such contracts, and they are sickening. They reveal an attitude that bears no resemblance of what our leaders wanted chinuch to represent.
If confiscation is assur, then the contract allowing this is not acceptable. Let’s just change one word. Instead of confiscation, let’s substitute molestation. If your child misbehaves, the rebbe/menahel has the right too molest him/her. Now that’s obviously bizarre, and no one normal would accept it. If confiscation is ????, how should a contract make it muttar?
groisnaches:
I do believe that we, as parents, understand that any form of abuse is destructive. We do not need to get into the discussion about molestation. That’s for other threads and even other sites. But the physical abuse inflicted by smacking, denying lunches or trips to the bathrooms, and the emotional abuse of name calling, punishing without having verified guilt, the public embarrassment, are all equally as devastating. All are tantamount to murder, and this is supported by Chazal. If you explore the histories of the OTD kids, you will discover these forms of abuse in virtually all of them, though those that did it will claim they were justified in perpetrating the abuse.
This topic is actually old discussion, and efforts to negotiate the subject with mechanchim or menahalim have either of two outcomes. Either they categorically deny it ever happens in their mosdos, or they insist that there is no other way to deal with the situation (blaming the victim). I have heard both versions. But to hear one single menahel accept responsibility for these crimes, followed by interventions to remedy the situation – that I have yet to experience. I have heard yeshivos refuse to allow a professional to train the faculty on anger management, discipline skills, etc. I have watched them deflect accusations with the above two forms of denial. So the struggle just goes on. I am not the advocate of police or media, but until a case ends up there, I am not sure the awareness and recognition of the problem will be enough to save our children.
groisnaches:
Thanks for the kudos.
I did not intend for my comment to begin a bash party against chinuch, though I might consider joining one if it would happen. There is a far greater importance to seeking the voices that will defend and protect our children against the stupid ideas that our schools have developed of “discipline”. The preoccupation of insuring compliance with standards, many of which are arbitrary, has overtaken the minds and energies of our best mosdos. This leaves true Torah chinuch far in the background. Our children are expected to mold as pliable robots to mechanically produce tests that have the spit-back information from classes. The role models from whom we can learn midos tovos, mesiras nefesh, and the emotional experiences of avodas Hashem and yir’as Hashem are nowhere to be found. There are such people, but the yeshivos expect us to emulate the very individuals who engage in so much rejection and push our precious youth to the street.
Again, I don’t seek to denounce. I hope that some of the commenters here in CR can share ideas on how to fix the system. We have big leaks, losing too many children. How can we plug the leaks?
Regardless of what you know, and have confirmation from a Rav, you are still not the one with the competence to deliver the information. YOu can contact the family members you know, warn them that this individual has a history of mental illness, and suggest that they investigate this matter further to be sure this relationship should continue, or maybe not. Let them take this to their own advisors, hopefully with professional advice. You fulfill your obligation of ?? ???? while not attempting to pasken yourself. My opinion.
Rebdoniel:
You are correct in viewing your list of criminals and victimizers as major contributors to the OTD problem. If it busts anybody’s bubble, tough, but one major location of these victimizers is our yeshivos and schools.
Zahavasdad:
The people who “chased away” the OTD kids are NOT the ones looking to bring them back. The ones seeking their return are the families, and the select few askanim who realize the turmoil into which these precious neshamos have been thrust. Our mainstream leaders are full of denial and completely blind to the neshamos of these children. They have turned a deaf ear to their cries. They will immorally defend the yeshivos for the persistent rejections imposed on these kids, and there is no yeshiva or community leader that will stand up to insist that the rejection and abusiveness (emotional and physical) must stop.
Our community periodically gets leaflets and posters bearing the messages that anyone with “secular” or professional background must be prevented from contributing expertise to assist in modifying chinuch to cope with the current times. These same pashkivilim also place an issur against sending a frum child for therapy to professionals, even those who are frum and yirai shomayim. There are many signatures on these pashkivilim, and I find them personally nauseating and destructive. But many among our leaders are still living in the fantasy world in which our chinuch does nothing wrong and has no responsibility for the holocaust of our young.
dolphina:
I have these discussions with OTD kids all the time. I am not against asking them. I’m just saying that to assess to overall phenomenon, which is the aim of this thread, it is not a likely souce to get the information you really need. The input of each OTD kid is valuable, but it is not necessarily definitive. If the kid will vent his anger about the issue of the day for him/her, you will miss the other contributing factors.
Hunny:
No one will rely on asking the OTD kid. Several reasons.
1. Who says the answers are reliable?
2. The OTD kid is at least partly rebellious. That anger will likely cloud the judgment, and the real answer may be impossible to reach.
3. The real issues are multiple even for a single case.
While this issue remains one of hot discussion, the notion that there is a single factor that is the “answer” is fantasy.
lebedik yankel:
You raise a powerful point, and this has been echoed by many in the fields of rabbonus, mental health. It is also addressed in many of the recent publications and magazines. One label is “adults at risk”. There is a superficial pattern to today’s Yiddishkeit that is truly alarming. It may not be the talking in shul, but the lack of respect felt for tefila. That is unquestionably epidemic and well deserves major intervention. To whom will we listen when we are told that our avodas Hashem is a masquerade?
Nice questions and ideas. But that process has been going on for many years now, almost 20 years in my calculation. There’s a problem with pursuing this. If you ask anyone who is in chinuch or connected to it, the answer is “Blame the dysfunctional families.” If you ask those parents who are not connected to chinuch, they blame the yeshivos and schools. While both are correct, both are also wrong. Each situation is different, and there are many factors that combine in each case. It is rare that there are not family issues in each case, and the yeshivos are dishonest when they claim total innocence. I have had many, many encounters with OTD kids and their families, and the notion of the innocent yeshiva is complete fiction. But they are not always the main issue.
If this thread gets many comments, I will read them with interest for possible chiddushim. Otherwise, I expect the same debates that have appeared in other threads on this subject. Ho hum.
I will give another shot at explaining what I said. To say you know the cause for Hurricane Sandy or any other specific event is tantamount to saying , “I know the cheshbonos of HKB”H.” If you have Ruach Hakodesh, I am happy for you, and for us that we are privileged to have you in our generation. If not, you have the problems I mentioned earlier – either kefira, gaava, or intellectual challenge. However, there is nothing wrong with identifying areas in which we should invest in tikkun. For that, we are told ????? ??????, and we must do that individually. A gadol is empowered to guide the generation in areas in which such tikkun is needed. This does not suppose what the Divine cheshbonos were, just that the message of what to do is such and such. Yes, there were gedolim who had a sixth sense, and were able to identify a snippet of the cheshbonos of HKB”H. These were not average people, and much of what they did was in a sphere that we struggle to comprehend.
We need to take these tragedies as messages, whether individually, or collectively as a klal. But the statements of precisely what HKB”H was calculating are way beyond the reach of us. And, yes, these could be Ruach Hakodesh, but are otherwise either kefira, gaava, or stupidity.
Unless somone possesses Ruach Hakodesh, they have no right to tell us what caused the Holocaust, Hurricane Sandy, or any other disaster. They are free to instruct Klal Yisroel or any individual with guidance on what to be mesaken. The Ben Ish Chai spoke in general, as is found in Shas many times (for example in Pirkei Avos (5:10)) that certain types of tragedies happen as punishment for certain categories of aveiros. However, cheshbonos for specific events are complex beyond the comprehension of mortal humanity. Anyone who tells me the precise cause for Sandy is either a kofer, a ball gaava, or a plain idiot.
As long as the question and the comments here are in jest, it’s all fine. However, once they get serious, I get upset. To make statements about what HKB”H intended with any world event is not just conceited, but borders on kefira. If anyone around has a hefty dose of Ruach Hakodesh, I might accept, but I highly doubt that anyone with such a spirit would be either reading or commenting on YWN.
I also read the statement from the Ben Yehoyodoh (by the Ben Ish Chai). However, reread his statement. It is stated in generalities, not specifics.
There were a few Meisels brothers. The Veitzener Rov from Chicago, from whom the Seagate mishpocho derives. The Uheler Rov (FIL to R’ Velvel (Zevi) Ernster), Sorvosher Rov who lived in NY, and the Uvayer Rov from BP. R’ Dovid Dov Meisels (SIL of the Beirach Moshe – previous Satmar Rebbe) is son of Uheler Rov. Sorvosher Rov who lived in NY. All have large, expansive families BA”H.
Hockey_fan:
I have B”H married off most of my children, and have participated many times in the “shidduch” process as is common today. Yet, I remain completely appalled at the questions that become part of today’s typical investigations. Yes, there are the stereotypical stupidities that are often mocked (but are asked anyway), such as whether the parents use plastic tablecloths on Shabbos. But there is much, much more. For example, one member of my family received a call from a shadchante to inquire about her son, intending to propose a girl for him. In the first half hour of this phone interview, not a single question was asked about the boy’s character, career plans, learning, etc. The entire conversation was about his levush, as if this is the most important issue. When the mother finally challenged the shadchante on this, she became defensive, and insisted that she needed this info to get past the initial calls to prospective shidduchim. What a shame.
I have also watched shiddichim be nixed because members of the extended family have issues such as an OTD child, etc. If there is a divorce in the family, that’s a terrible flaw, and if anyone terminated a shidduch, that dooms the prospects. In reality, none of us can defend these things. If there was a broken shidduch or a divrce, I would want to know whether it was handled properly, with menchlichkeit. But things happen, and to consider someone with such a history unworthy of a shidduch is ludicrous.
I bet anyone can find plenty of other trivia that has become central to the shidduch process, and that adds unnecessary complication to a challenging process. And we who do this become our own worst enemies.
I think it has much more to do with the trivia that has taken center stage.
R’ Moshe Ernster shlit”a opened his beis hamedrash in Sanhedria Hamurchevet in 1974. He immediately opened a kollel there which was somewhat novel in requiring the bnai kollel to sign in and out.
His oldest son, R’ Velvel was the Rav in a Viznitzer shteibel in a nearby neighborhood. When R’ Moshe established a Viznitzer settlement in Tzfas and relocated there, R’ Velvel assumed the role of Rav in Sanhedria Hamurchevet. He is not the SIL of the Veitzener Rov of Chicago, but a SIL of the Uheler Rov (brother to the Veitzener).
The extended Ernster family is well known, and are a bunch of really wonderful people. The Ernster home in Yerushalayim was a open home, full of guests every Shabbos. R’ Moshe was a known baal tzedokoh when I was there long ago.
His second son, R’ Menachem is a SIL of the Yeshuos Moshe, and is Rosh Hayeshiva of Viznitz in Bnei Brak. Third son is R’ Yisroel in Boro Park. Fourth son is R’ Eliezer in E”Y. The one son-in-law is R’ Yisroel Eliezer Adler (his mother was another daughter of the Imrei Chaim), who was recently named Dzikover Rebbe. The Ernster family is known for its achdus, and, as such, is a model for rebbishe families world over who can learn from them.
I am once again astounded at the attitudes displayed in many of the comments here. Before we discuss halacha or secular law, let’s discuss this rare commodity called “morality”. While a woman must be divorced by her husband, it is immoral as **** to lock a woman into a marriage that is unviable. That said, each instance needs to be examined for its unique details. There are incompetent men and women. There are poorly functioning men and women. There are great men and women, and there are plainly nasty men and women. We will do ourselves, a couple, and the world a disservice by engaging in who is right or wrong, which is one common pitfall for those without professional training who undertake to work with a couple in trouble. If we cannot succeed in breaking down the barriers between them, leading them to get closer and create a bond, a stable parental unit for the home, then this marriage is beyond repair. The role of outside help is unique per case, and I will will get nauseated by the generalizations that tend to appear in these comments (all men …. or all women ….)
Now, having identified whether there is a moral responsibility to help a marriage or to end it, we know whether to refer them to a therapist or a beis din. The recalcitrant spouse who refuses to receive or give a get is a moral invalid. Sure, one must engage in the process to mediate a settlement, and the obstacles in this process are many. But the withholding of a get (giving or receiving) hostage in order to pressure the other to relinquish any of their rights is another violation of basic menchlichkeit. To assist either side to commit this immorality is beneath human dignity. Even a Rov or Dayan who participates in such behavior is sunscribing to anti-Torah values. Yes, I proclaimed the violator of ????? ???? ???? an incompetent, perhaps evil individual. Such cases are not common, but are also not rare, ?????????? ?????.
There is never a single cause for the failure of a marriage. But there can be many individuals who feed the problem and can cause much damage, ?’ ?????.