The little I know

Here we go again. Looking for a way to ban things. It may sound logical, but it just won’t work. The focus, if we truly want to improve things, is to do things with kids to provide them with healthy socialization and fun. There were once Pirchei groups that made kosher entertainment available. We have placed so many restrictions (in the name of chumrah) on our homes and children that every form of kosher entertainment is banned. Result – kids go outside and seek their excitement and stimulation elsewhere. And now we are hopping mad.

Sending rebbeim to Ave. J to monitor things is useless. Throwing kids out of yeshiva and school comes next, and this will be the “Torah” sanctioned murder of these neshamos. I shudder to think about the disasters that will result from these incompetent efforts to resolve the problem.

Torah613Torah:

The reason I emphasize yeshivos is not because they are the ones to blame, but because the voices of denial on behalf of yeshivos are strong and pervasive. And this resistance to recognize that there is room for improvement is sinful as well as dangerous. It is not the finger pointing that matters, but it is unquestionable that everyone needs to admit their shortcomings and undertake to fix it. I cannot speak for individuals, but the general public expresses greater awareness that parenting skills, sometimes even therapy are needed to be able to help a child make it through childhood and adolescence. We all recognize (though little ever gets done) to prepare young people prior to marriage with the needed skills to manage a marital relationship and how to parent children. The one place that has remained steadfast in insisting that no change is needed is chinuch, and for that there is solid blame. No, chinuch is not solely responsible. But until they yield to the pressure to recognize that they bear some responsibility, there needs to be a concentrated focus on yeshivos. Yes, there are dysfunctional families. This is universal. But there are also dysfunctional yeshivos, and it is high time that the mainstream chinuch systems acknowledged this. So far, all discussions with mechanchim are met with solid denial, proclaiming that all is well, ,and that no adaptations are needed. And the rate of expulsions, inappropriate discipline, and admissions refusals is at an all time high. Many hundreds of kids are yeshivaless. This is a community problem, it is epidemic, and everyone including the yeshivos themselves must address it.

You asked a powerful question, “Just who are the yeshivos?” Actually, everyone. Let’s explain.

Menahalim set policy of admissions, discipline, etc. Many of these policies need to be revisited. Many are based on mission statements that are not consistent with the ultimate goal of continuity of Torah life, or mesorah as we know it.

Roshei Yeshivos, at least many of them, are not involved with every talmid as a yochid. A great shiur is Divine music, but the talmid who is struggling to keep up is the responsibility of the Rosh Yeshiva.

Mashgichim have a role far beyond saying a mussar schmooze. There is direct attention needed for every single bochur to guide him to reach his potential. It is a shared responsibility with Roshei Yeshivos. It is sometimes exceptional to find a Rosh Yeshiva that knows every talmid by name. This should never occur.

Rebbeim and Magidei Shiur often assume their responsibility is to deliver a shiur, and that’s it. Wrong. We are told ?????? ??????? ????, not to establish large yeshivos. There is greater responsibility for the welfare, physical and emotional for each and every talmid. The inattentive talmid may be preoccupied with many other issues, not seeking to disrupt the class or plain bored. Does a Magid Shiur realize that the public confrontation, even asking the talmid to leave the class is not only inappropriate, but damaging? Is there adequate training for rebbeim before they enter the classroom? There is potential for huge growth in every year of yeshiva, but there is equal and opposite potential for great destruction if the experience is not handled correctly.

Yeshivish culture has also been diverted greatly from the goals and intentions dictated by the great founders of the yeshiva movement. Mussar is intellectualized to where Reb Yisroel Salanter would not recognize it. Amkus is not right where Reb Chaim Brisker wanted it, at the expense of bekiyus. The gaava that permeates the environments in both Litvish and Chassidish yeshivos is antithetical to Torah. The glamorizing of our Gedolim and Talmidei Chachomim, while truly deserved, is a misplacement of resources. We have taken things to an extreme, with relationships to our Torah leaders being relegated to the photographic, not the precious teaching and experience they can share with us.

There is much that needs to change. You are correct in recognizing that the finger pointing and blaming is of limited value. But if it triggers the realization that we need to modify our direction, it is worthwhile.

Gamanit:

If I had a dollar for every time a mechanech blamed parents for all the kids at risk and OTD issues, I could get myself and several other people out of debt. It is a blatant lie. There are good parents, there are bad parents, and there are parents who tried to do a good job but lacked the skills for a child who had different needs. Even Avrohom Avinu succeeded with only one out of 8, and Yitzchok Avinu with 1 out of 2! It is high time for the community and all those involved in chinuch to accept responsibility for the role of the yeshivos and schools. There is gross failure to meet the needs of talmidim who do not conform, whether by providing or accessing services, or by having individual attention for each and every talmid. It is pikuach nefesh for so many, and is the exception to the rule. How many menahalim of mosdos that have more than 100 students can greet every single one by name? I am not blaming yeshivos for all the problems. I am simply stating with full conviction that the defense of diverting responsibility away from yeshivos is irresponsible and blatantly false. We are all in this together, and we all share a collective responsibility to insure that every boy or girl has a yeshiva, school, program, and all needed services. If we fail to accomplish this, we will ch”v continue to watch every family lose some to the welcoming arms of the yetzer horah, the filthy streets, and the tangle of the web.

Gamanit:

Can you share your experience with kids at risk? I won’t present details about mine, but my exposure to KAR is extreme, with many, many hundreds having been connected to me. In addition, I work closely with many others who have worked with this population for years, and this is the conclusion we have all reached. There is a small statistical minority who are simply looking for the thrill of the moment. But the overwhelming majority are Kids in Pain, who are escaping from themselves. To call them Victims of Abuse would be dramatic, but would be true.

If some of the above comments are an attempt at humor, the effort was futile. If they were meant with any degree of seriousness, some people need a lot of help, perhaps as much as the OTD kids.

It is true that lumping OTD situations together is often unjustified and uninformative. What it does tell us is that our community has lost the strength to hold onto its youth and that the problem starts with the adults in their lives. And don’t bore me with the ridiculous, usually untruthful line about dysfunctional families. It’s sometimes true, but very, very often it is not.

We, as a community, have failed our children, and miserably at that. We do not meet their needs at home, school or yeshiva, or in the community sanctioned social environments. We are confirmed failures at transmitting the values of Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas HaTorah. We have excelled in creating environments that force compliance and conformity. The talmid that is difficult is discarded. Some yeshivos lack the resources, and all lack the funds. But also seriously lacking is the concern to insure that every talmid can find success. This is a product of the times. It was comparatively uncommon 25 years ago, and is still less frequent out of town.

Here’s the litmus test. How much effort is invested by a yeshiva that rejects an applicant or refuses to permit a talmid(oh) to continue in their school? How many alumni maintain contact with their rebbeim and teachers long after they left? These two examples of approach are elements that have become nearly obsolete. That’s where our children are, and that is the only reason to think about OTD as a single issue.

DY:

Your fear about negative influences has a point of merit, but is also a source of grave danger. I do not want my child exposed to many of the decadent influences of today’s world. However, not every kid that slips into most of these traps brings them to peers to dendanger them. It is widely believed, for instance, that a kid that begins dabbling in drugs is a rodef. This is sometimes true. But many times, it is not. The child needs treatment for a disease, not punishment for a crime. Many drug users want their addiction to remain hidden, and they withhold it from their peers like they hide it from others. Meanwhile, there is an absolute chiyuv to ascertain the “rodef” status before committing the spiritual murder of throwing this kid into the welcoming arms of the street.

Yes, kids who are exposed have a greater yetzer horah. Does this sentence anyone who knows the kid? You are correct that any exposure is major exposure. But this does not necessarily expose others. This needs to be determined on a case-by-case basis, not by policy.

In Targum on Megilas esther, it translates ???? ???? ?????? as “????? ?????”, which would correspond to Nisan 17, the first day of Chol Hamoed (if they kept 2 days of Pesach). Since Mordechai was a member of Sanhedrin, there might have been Kidush Hachodesh during Golus Bavel, and there might have been one day of Pesach. According to Rashi in Megilas Esther, Haman was killed on 16 Nisan. From Rashi in Shas – Maseches Megila, it is not so clear.

Here are the facts, all directly derived from psukim:

Haman’s decree was written on 13 Nisan.

Esther decreed that Jews should fast for 3 days (night and day, or 24-hour fasts)

Esther’s first party was at the end of the third day of fasting.

The second party was the next day.

Mordechai, in taking part in the decree to fast, was ???? the mitzvos of eating ??? ?????, and presumably ????? ????? ????? which is conditional on ??? ????? ????? ?????.

Now, when were the three days of fasting. In order to have three complete days, fasting would need to begin on the 14th, with the 16th as the third day. This would explain Targum. One may argue that the first day was not complete. The calculation of ?? and ????, referring to 70 hours for esther, 72 for everyone else, is a commentary from the Gr”a, which is fascinating, but it is not the posuk. The custom is to consider the second day of Pesach, Nisan 16, as Haman’s Yahrtzeit. Many people sing ????? ???? as part of ?????? at the Yom Tov meal. Others drink an extra sip/cup of wine to take note of Haman’s death.

May we always be zocheh to celebrate the demise of our enemies.

GAW:

There is a serious problem with your statement. You seem to assume that Rav Shteinman’s statement was specific to that situation, but that the exclusionary policies are otherwise acceptable. My reaction: Chas veshalom. At the very least, the dinei nefashos of allowing a child to have no yeshiva (Chazon Ish – a general psak) must be posed to a Gadol beYisroel. If this will be done, it will become recognized that the blanket, default psak is that no talmid should ever be left yeshivaless. It will be seen that the rare exception is to refuse a talmid admission in yeshiva. Furthermore, if you view the video carefully, Rav Shteinman makes his statement as a general issue, not a specific psak. Unfortunately, the menahel that posed this question to Rav Shteinman is a yochid. Most menahalim make their decisions without any effort to seek the guidance of anyone else. Their decisions to expel talmidim are also made the same way, without any consultation. I dare you or anyone else to query the average dayan or beis din to assess how many shailos are asked about “little things” versus questions about chinuch. The answers will shock many.

Gedolei Yisroel have spoken out about chinuch, the non-Torahdik policies related to admissions and expulsions, the logicless restrictions in rules and bizarre patterns of “discipline”. Trouble is that their voices are going unheard.

It is commonplace to have Gedolei Yisroel write letters to force admissions for both bochurim and girls to be accepted in yeshivos. Why must Gedolim be busy with matters that should be normal? This picture is frightening, and there is no place to intervene. Each yeshiva may even agree that this issue is problematic, but prefers waiting for other yeshivos to take their heads out of the ground first. This issue is complex, and nothing great will bring about change quickly. But for the sake of continuity of Torah, it better.

I feel bad for them. However, there need to be rules that are followed here, and, as a yochid, I can’t be the one to do it. Collecting tzedakah does not permit anyone to disturb the tefilos of another, regardless of the form of need (health costs, huge debt, hachnosas kallah, etc.) or the magnitude of it – all of which affect the collector greatly. The responsibility falls on the shul, whether the rebbe, rov, or gabbai, to set the guidelines. There are certain shuls where this panhandling is completely banned. It can only be done in the corridor outside the beis hamedrash. Bothering a baal tefiloh is completely prohibited. The Mishna Berura is emphatic that it cannot be done during kriyas haTorah, and anywhere that one may not be mafsik to speak, one may not be approached about tzedokoh. Our shuls have been denigrated to other purposes besides tefiloh, and the result of our tefilos becoming lower priority in our lives is noticeable. We must retake control over our shuls, make them into the makom tefiloh they should be, all without decreasing the tzedokoh and chesed. But we need to make rules for each shul, and there are those who should be empowered to set these rules. Ye, these limitations need to include strict guidelines about cell phones. If you are willing to leave your cell ringer on, even on vibrate, then you are compromising how much of your concentration is available for davening – let the collectors distract you, as you’re not trying to daven anyway.

This is as smart as Kosher lePesach chazzer.

Not this year, but several years ago. A young couple, in third trimester pregnancy walking down the block each wearing a large, green garbage bag. The wife’s bag had a large label, “I’m Hefty”, and the husband’s label said, “I’m Glad”.

TOI:

You are completely wrong, and dangerously so.

There is no such thing as a “chumroh” to drink to shikrus on Purim. There is discussion about what the nature of the mitzvah is. And many, including nearly all of the poskim that are the leaders of our generation, are stating clearly that the drunkeness that is involved in so much danger (alcohol poisoning, accidents, getting rowdy and fighting, drunk driving etc.) is not the preferred way to go, and that the mitzvah does NOT include these negatives. I consider ????? ???? ????? part of the mitzvah, and will be careful to avoid getting stuck in trying to fashion halacha to be consistent with my taavos. So no one is failing to adhere to your invention of chumroh.

GS:

I will only repeat my challenge. Drinking on Purim has nothing to do with escape or outlet. The expectation is that we will be brought to a greater level of simcha, not the shikrus of Lot. The poskim have spoken about this emphatically. I marvel at the trend to seek greater and more intricate chumros in everything, be it shiurim, or other dikdukei mitzvos, trying to accommodate other shitos for almost anything. But the vast array of poskim who are clear about sleeping on Purim (like the obscure posek known as the Mishnah Berurah) gets completely ignored. What is obvious is that this “drink to get drunk” mentality is truly based on the use of Purim as a heter to get drunk – something actually desired all year round. That, my friends, is 100% gashmiyus, unrelated to Torah, not connected whatsoever with the mitzvos of Purim, and actually frowned upon by the greatest of poskim of all generations. Just engage in a real cheshbon hanefesh, where the true motivators are revealed. It ain’t good. That’s the outlet mentality, and that is not related in any way to the mitzvah of ad delo yoda.

My, my. How quickly this thread has deteriorated into the infantile name calling and challenging about character instead of the subject matter. Can anybody rescue this discussion from the bowels of personal battle? Otherwise, perhaps it be closed.

While I am all in favor of following laws, there are some that need to be changed because they are plainly stupid, useless, and only cause problems. The No Parking zone in front of a shul is without purpose. I understand the fire hydrants. Even the bus stops (though way too much space is sacrificed for busses). The shul thing produces zero benefit, only providing the revenue for illegal parking. This is a feature of the current climate that penalizes drivers for operating automobiles so that they can balance the city budget. It has never made sense. But with the current mayor, no one will ever consider removing these No Parking zones so that there is enough room for people to park.

TOI:

And you also teaching them something that is shelo kedin. There is absolutely NO mitzvah or minhag to drink spirits other than wine on Purim. Such imbibing is only for the purely gashmiyusdig goal of shikrus, which has nothing to do with Purim. This has been repeated countless times by poskim of our generation and many previous generations. Pouring shots is thus nothing more than encouraging kids to get drunk and is assur without question. Being the adult who does this is being machati others, and should not be done at all. There is a major task of teshuvah for being such a baal aveiro. My Rosh Yeshiva poured and gave wine, which he stopped many years ago when the drinking became problematic.

I know that I am inciting some zealots, many who obeyed instructions from dayanim and batei din, but I frown upon the use of violence and similar forms of protest. Firstly, they accomplish nothing beyond capturing the attention of the anti-Jewish or anti-frum media. Secondly, I have not succeeded in finding sources of such behavior as consistent with Torah values. We must all follow the edict of ????? ???? ????, mandating that we use such means to achieve our goals. Can someone please convince me that getting hit with stones will make a chiloni become shomer Shabbos? The mitzvah of ????? ????? is specific to the accomplishment of the goal – otherwise it is the mitzvah to not say or do anything (???? ????? ??? ?).

Since the subject of gezel shinah was raised, I must divert a bit to highlight something common to many frum neighborhoods. I don’t go to bed all that early, but I often hear long, incessant honking of car horns late into the night. While I can always enhance my situation with a drop of caffeine the next day, I find the waking of sleeping babies and children on the block inconsiderate, even abusive. Are our pressures at the level of pikuach nefesh that the disturbance to countless others is meaningless?

There is a huge difference between just not sharing something and keeping secrets. Among the comments here, especially those with traces of seriousness, there seems to be a bit of confusion. Having an aspect of one’s life that is secret and kept away from a spouse is a powder keg. The discovery is often enough to create major problems. Similarly, there are plenty of issues that one spouse can experience that are not needed in the interaction, and bringing them in can create wedges. A few mentioned about having a bad day at the office. There might be many ways to deal with this. Arriving home and mentioning it in the context of reaching out for support can be a positive thing. If the spouse then digs into the issue, offering opinions that are irrelevant, could create potential for conflict. So it’s not simple, but the distinction above is one of the basics in relationships.

Having separate bank accounts can work for some, but transparency is critical. Maintaining schedule structure with knowledge of where the other goes is a great idea, critical for many couples.

There a few facts that some here seem to have missed.

1. The obligation to discipline emanates from the mitzvah of hocheyach tochiyach. The mesilas Yeshorim spells out that this mitzvah is hinged on the outcome. If rebuke has positive effect, then doing so fulfills a mitzvah. If it causes a backlash, then the mitzvah is to remain silent. Our chinuch systems appear hell-bent on doing something, otherwise it is tantamount to approval. This premise is faulty. Meanwhile severe forms of punishment, or those unrelated to the “crime” teach nothing and usually backfire. Such “dsicipline” is actually abuse and not al pi Torah.

2. It became recognized many years ago that the OTD kids were being mislabeled as “drop outs”. Actually, they are “throw outs”, and there will be much to pay on Judgment day for the spiritual murder of these neshamos.

3. Yes, Emunoh issues are excuses. However, the questions are generally legitimate, and deserve answers. One main reason our “system” bases severe rejections on these “questions of faith” is because we (the system) don;t have the answers. If any mechanech(es) would try to answer the questions on Emunoh as they would about nuances of current questions in Hilchos Shabbos, they would discover their own real issues, or perhaps save a child from slipping into the abyss of OTD.

Heard in shul this morning:

Jail sentences do not make sense, and efforts to explain them are futile. Incarceration does not rehabilitate, and no one possesses the knowledge to establish a time limit for punishment. The criminal does not contemplate the consequences of crime, and the fact that others received still penalties do not serve as a deterrent. The only reason to incarcerate is to protect society from criminals. Now, do we know anything about how long it takes for a guarantee that a crime will not be repeated? Nothing. Result is that sentencing is a tool to tell the public certain messages, and that is the only rational explanation for 103.

We would be wiser to hear the message, instead of the useless discussion about whether someone with chassidic garb is handled fairly in court. The reality is that our community is irresponsible, and damagingly so, in referring anyone to an untrained “therapist”, and cross-gender to boot. This guy here wantonly trashed hilchos yichud. He was warned many times, and did not care for fundamental halacha. I cannot determine the appropriate punishment, but he is a guilty man, and was long before any reports were made. The community did a gross disservice in how it handled the entire affair, and needs to revisit its approach to child safety.

Forbidden to believe a single allegation? Did you really say that? That is one of the most foolish statements in this thread. You may referring to a completely mistaken understanding of the obligation to be ?? ??? ????, which actually does not obligate anyone to deny facts, but to be ready to accept alternative explanations. Since we are talking facts, the role of the jury is to establish facts by believability. This requires a “jury of one’s peers”, not experts. It is correct that the Torah does not account for a trial by jury, but that is the secular court who set the rules for that system. It is bizarre to expect a secular court to adopt the standards of a beis din and halacha to adjudicate a criminal.

As for benefit of doubt, NW already got that. Now it’s time to put him away. Next?

Some people have allowed their marriages to deteriorate, or were the victims of enough outside interference that they cannot muster the basic skills to make their marriage work. Many entered the picture poorly prepared. Either way, the need for a counselor might be valid. Those who can manage the speed bumps of marriage without outside help should certainly save the money and time, and invest in their home, not the unneeded professional.

One reason to have a date outside the home was to be away from the distractions of the home. Among them was the wonderful, but majorly disruptive telephone. Now with cell phones that no one leaves home without one, couples need to cherish each other enough to shut theirs.

HaKatan:

Wrong approach. Removing a child from a cheder because of unsafe conditions allows the problem to continue and expose countless other children to risk. The proper approach is to make contacts with those who have jurisdiction and “force” the yeshiva to take measures to make the environment safer. If this yeshiva is part of a chassidus that has a rebbe here, find someone to approach that rebbe with the issue. Perhaps gathering a group of parents, instead of just one parent alone may make greater impact. Having other askanim who carry soome clout make the connections with the hanhala, etc. You get the gist.

Taking your child out saves your child (unfortunately, that’s all we can do sometimes), but there must be a strong effort at correcting this irresponsibility.

There are so many deficiencies in today’s chosson and kallah classes it is scary. Many teachers just cover halachos, which is also problematic because it rarely accounts for differing opinions. It is the exception when the chosson and kallah teacher communicate to insure they are on the same page. Some teachers present mythical material. Unfortunately, there is no regulation or oversight. I was recently introduced to a few yungerleit in Brooklyn who are working class people looking to earn an extra dollar, and have been volunteering themselves as chosson teachers. Their qualification – still being married after 5 years.

Also missing, to our deep chagrin, is the guidance on how to manage the relationship. How should a couple fight/disagree? How should they manage their relationships with respective in-laws? Fundamental communication skills need to be taught. In the words of one of the recently departed gedolim, “Learn to be mevater on everything.”

The role of religion and spirituality is rarely addressed, though differences here are apt to become problems. When dating, prospective chassanim and kallos present themselves in their best light. But the real self is reserved for exposure later. Life is full of speed bumps. If the skills to handle these are there, they become just markers that were passed by without event. If not, the weak relationship can be severely rattled.

Next is the matter of where to turn when there are issues. Many involve their parents. This is rarely effective. Others look to other outsiders, extended family, rabbonim, etc. This is also of limited value. Most are untrained, and have no idea what suggestions are actually harmful to the marriage.

Spending couple time alone is great. But without having learned basic skills, from parental models or by instruction, this could just provide another arena to play out the problems that are apt to arise out of poor preparation for marriage.

Health:

I did NOT declare anything ossur as if I was a posek. I am simply quoting the countless poskim who have boldly stated their psak. I have a few sforim in front of me that discuss the issue, with haskomos from the leading poskim of this and the past generation. I would transcribe their statements if it wasn’t prohibitive to spend all that time typing. As if it matters, several add that the first cigarette is also an issur because it is the first of many, and this voluntary succumbing to an addiction is an additional issur. The Chasam Sofer addresses the role of issues of sakanah being even more strict than issur, and that compromises and cutting of corners (sometimes permitted in halacha) are not even negotiable. So if you have an agenda to declare smoking any less of an issur than it is, stand up and proclaim your position. I am standing with the greatest poskim of our generation (and some who have passed on) in declaring every cigarette an absolute issur mid’oraysa.