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DY:
Your last response sounds great, but is in fact against the Torah’s instruction on how to be mechanech our children. Shlomo Hamelech (Mishlei 22:6) was specific in his statement that ???? ???? ?? ?? ????, that chinuch must adapt to the child, not the child to the system.
One of the most severe problems our chinuch system is its almost complete neglect of the individual needs of every single child. It is extremely difficult to provide every conceivable service needed by every talmid/oh, and it is expensive. What would go a really long way would be the requirement that the hanhalah establish an individual relationship with each child. As things stand today, this is an exception to the rule, and the results of our chinuch system bear painful witness to this overwhelming failure to fulfill the mandate written by Shlomo Hamelech.
The convenience of the mosdos and their staff is not a reason to fail at fulfilling the mandate of the entire system.
left to write:
I alluded to the danger of having ADHD medication essentially prescribed by an educator, who generally knows nothing about psychology or medicine. He/she just wants to have a medicated youngster in the class who will “easier” to manage. Whether that is in the best interest of the child is beyond the teacher or menahel’s training to assess, and that is precisely why that situation is a disaster waiting to happen. If that evaluation was done by a responsible professional, the diagnosis and recommendation will likely be far more reliable and responsible. As for the prescription-happy doctors, these are usually the non-psychiatrists who acquiesce to the demands of the parents who relay the pressure imposed by the irresponsible educators.
Of course all medications are likely to have their side effects, and whether to use them even when they are indicated is a decision that needs to be made by the individual with the guidance of the medical professional. What works for one child may not work for another. No yeshiva can know the answer to that, and they are outside of their domain when they make these ultimatums.
I know some of the professionals who specialize in attentional disorders quite well. None of them guarantee a diagnosis of ADHD or anything else, but assess a patient on the merits of the presenting symptoms and condition. Behaving differently is a violation of professional ethics. It is also completely immoral to diagnose and treat a patient based on anything but the patient’s needs. And parents are good providers of information and history, but they make poor diagnosticians. Schools and yeshivos are completely incompetent to practice medicine, and should be recognized as violating Jewish morals and ethics by attempting to tell doctors what to conclude and how to treat.
There is a Ramban (in Sefer Toras Ho’odom) that addresses the practice of medicine in which he states openly that only one with proper training is permitted to do so. Others are essentially guilty of being mazik the patient. Check it out.
I am a bit taken aback by the moderators permitting a question like this on the forum. It is a medical question, to be answered by an appropriate professional for the specific case posed in the question. The opinions of the mass lay audience who lack the proper training are irrelevant to the subject matter.
The entire subject of ADHD has been brought to the lay public as an issue of debate, and this is another version of the abuse committed by mass media. There is hysteria in either direction, whether the non-medical educators insisting that a child be medicated to be allowed in school/yeshiva, to the physicians (usually pediatricians with some, but not enough, training) who rush to prescribe. Others yell about the overmedicating of our children. Some media (including frum publications) have allowed the anti-Ritalin movement the freedom to rant on their pages, while others have allowed medical professionals a voice. All of this is completely irresponsible.
There is a legitimate disorder of ADHD (actually a spectrum of disorders). Anyone presenting such symptoms should be professionally evaluated by someone who has experience and training. Such specialists are in position to make responsible recommendations, prescribe when needed, and to know the difference.
I would refrain from using the CR for guidance on such a matter unless I knew the commenter was a properly trained professional. With the anonymity here, one can never know.
semisrael:
No one said you should disbelieve lashon horah. You should not be mekabel it. You are not obligated to trust or distrust anyone. However, there are times when the tests of truth have been passed. It is stupid to still insist that it is not true. The example of several of the recent tragic reports of abuse is apropos. People wished to disbelieve even after proof and confessions, and chose to pervert the Chazal dictate of ?? ??? ???? as the basis for their folly. You can choose to disbelieve information that has not been proven, but ?? ??? ???? has nothing to do with that. Again, go through the countless examples of ?? ??? ???? that grace the pages of Shas and Midrash. The true translation of the words of Chazal is obvious. I am not telling anyone to accept lashon horah.
This is so easily misunderstood. If you review the statements throughout Shas on ?? ??? ????, you will discover that it is misinterpreted by people way too often. If you are made aware of an allegation that something occurred, there is no reason to disbelieve that it happened. That would be foolish. Should one not trust just because the material is negative? Rather, it means that there may be alternative explanations, and that one should be ready to accept those as the reasons for a reported behavior.
The obvious difference is when there is no alternative explanation that matters. A case in point that is tragically more common than we would hope. There is a story reported that an individual (let’s call him Joe) abused a child (let’s call him Jake). You, the listener to this, may opt to distrust the information, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with being ?? ??? ????. If you otherwise trust the one giving over the information, you might seek another explanation for what occurred. In this instance, it is quite difficult to excuse the behavior, as the circumstances, even the intention of Joe, would not diminish the victimization. Invoking ?? ??? ???? could well be a huge mistake. It violates the fundamental requirement of ???? ??? ????, and trashes the virtue of ??? that is basic to being a Torah Jew. I’m sorry for using this example, but it is one that becomes central discussion too often, and is a perversion of the intent of Chazal.
Check Shulchan Aruch – Orach Chaim end of Siman 21 (se’if daled) where is specifically states that one should take that his tzitzis do not drag on the floor. The Mishna Berura se’if koton 18 explains this as bizuy mitzvah, and also notes that it risks them tearing and becoming posul. He recommends that one pick up their tzitzis and tuck them into a gartel. (Seems that the Chofetz Chaim either wore a gartel or even recommended it.)
And then the bloggers got involved. By the time all the comments rolled in, there were many Somebodies that blamed Everybody. But I guess that can happen to Anybody. With usernames, Nobody knows who Somebody is, and Everybody only knows it was Somebody because the story and attribution of blame went viral.
apushatayid:
??? ?? ?? is a requirement of each and every individual. I must have one, and so do you. This thread did not begin to address personal responsibilities. The question raised was a communal one. Do Rabbonim have a responsibility to exert control over a community to insure that tznius standards are being followed? And if someone is not in compliance, just what authority does a Rav have to take action to enforce the rules? We still have neither good answers, nor do we have solutions to deal with non-compliance. There have certainly been attempts, but we might accurately reflect that they have not been effective in achieving the “zero tolerance for immodesty” nor have enforcement efforts been limited to those who are committing these offenses.
Was there hope that opening this thread would produce a solution to this problem?
If I understood the OP properly, the question was at least as much about the roles of Rabbonim in insuring compliance with halachos as it was about tznius standards. And a stark reality is that the roles of Rabbonim in our community are not the same as they were just a few generations ago. The authority to issue piskei halacha has not changed. We are told plenty about ????? ??? ?????. The question is about their responsibility as leaders to set standards and to have some degree of enforcement. Here is where there are huge differences.
1. The Klal does not accept any single individual or group as the benchmark setters to determine what standards should be.
2. The Klal would resent any forms of enforcement, insisting that no one has the right to coerce another to follow a particular standard.
3. Compliance is generally recognized as an individual responsibility, not that of any form of leadership.
4. Nearly any form of enforcement today is (probably accurately) accomplished by punishing the innocent. Example – the yeshiva who will not accept an applicant if the mother drives a car or wears a long shaitel. The child is innocent and is being left to the forces of the street.
Can “Rabbonim” set standards, and can they enforce it? This double barrel question is still unanswered. I doubt there is much disagreement that tznius is a major issue and that there are existing problems.
There are two responsibilities in tznius. One is that women need to dress appropriately. There are different standards, and the creation of something that will be halachically uniform is nothing but a dream. There remain opinions about just what is considered ervah, and these disputes in halacha predate our generation by many, many years. There are certain minimums, and one should hope these are followed universally. However, only women bear the responsibility to insure that they behave in this manner. The power to legislate this from the bench is nonexistent, and will remain so for the foreseeable future. As I stated earlier, we would accomplish more by expanding our connection to HKB”H at the individual and communal levels.
The second aspect of tznius is the men’s responsibility. Since we do not own the world, there will always be presence of some women who are not dressed according to our standards of tznius. How many people have cleaning ladies who arrive at our doors, having walked the streets of our neighborhoods who are underdressed? It is reality that there will be exposure to female skin. Men are obligated to avoid looking. Bear in mind that there is no issur of re’iyah – seeing, just histaklus -looking. A man is not liable for the momentary casual sight, just for the extra second of fixation or glancing. Regardless of whether a woman is responsible for her manner of dress, men are still liable for their looking. And the exposure will always exist. No woman is liable for a man’s extra second of gazing, as no man is liable for the missing inches of hemline.
I find it worth repeating, though it’s starting to get tedious. With all we need to do to improve our compliance with the issurim we must follow, we have at least as much need to increase our hashro’as haShechinah in everything we do. Can we address our efforts to comply better with Shivisi Hashem Linegdi Tomid?
In truth, there is no single mitzvah or even midoh that can be minimized, nor catapulted into ?????? over all others. We just learned this in ???? ???? this past Shabbos – ??? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????. In that direction, tznius is not more or less important than kashrus, shmiras Shabbos, mezuzah, maakeh, or giving tzedokoh. Similarly, we must think creatively about how to raise standards to where men are put in fewer nisyonos, and ????? ????? is maintained. It is too easy to blame the tragedies of the community on tznius. It is done often, and I reflect on several where there were public outcries to establish “hechsherim” on women’s clothing stores – most a bizarre idea. Can you imagine a Rov sitting perched on a chair by the dressing/fitting rooms of a women’s clothing store? Just how would the nuances of tznius be judged – through actual ????????
Instead of looking to punish, ban, reject, and “enforce” some standards, why not look for ways to increase the levels of ????? in everything the community does? Try making shmiras mitzvos enjoyable. Try expanding chesed to insuring that no children are left to the influences of the street. Let’s raise the levels of ??????? in everything we do, cherishing the moments of ?????, beautifying mitzvos, helping one another, etc. The light that emanates from these mitzvos can chase away lots of darkness of negativity. Tznius will follow automatically, and no one was rejected, banned, or embarrassed in the process. Or am I dreaming?
I ask a different question. What’s up with all this discussion about “enforcement”? Our batei din are not authorized to enforce anything, nor is any individual Rov. However, since we are capable of making other people’s lives miserable by rejecting their children, disallowing them to daven in a particular shul, ostracizing them within a community, maybe we should exploit all these means to control yetzer horah? Well, it is high time we stopped worrying about someone else’s spirituality and our own physical comforts. Maybe we should try the opposite – worry that others should have their physical needs and comforts supplied, and our own ruchniyus. We’ll all be happier.
That goes for the internet stuff in which we want to punish children for their parents having internet access, and similar types of bullying. It won’t work, and it only makes these “punishers” into complete resho’im. The only remedy that will save Klal Yisroel from all these transgressions is for each individual to undertake a serious project to spread yir’as shomayim in our own homes, communities, yeshivos, batei medrash, and everywhere we go.
And, men, don’t stare at women’s legs to assess hemlines. The looking is the greatest violation of tznius.
SlichosGenendel:
If sharing a bank account “only causes problems”, the trouble in the relationship is deep, and not defined only by financial issues. Such a couple needs professional help, and it needs to address the issues not related to money. Such therapy, plus the requisite syatta dishmaya may allow this marriage to continue.
Heard from Rabbonim at a conference a few years ago:
The tasks of being the congregation leader in shul itself are menial. Most of us are well prepared to darshen on Shabbos, say a daf yomi shiur, pasken the average shailos that arise. What becomes overwhelming is the volume of personal problems that are best handled by someone with appropriate training. Congregants bring these issues to rabbonim, in the hope that we possess “daas Torah”, and that our counsel will resolve the issues. The trouble is that these issues are beyond anything we experienced in our training for rabbonus, and they are painful enough that they diminish our own ability to function in the capacity as a rov.
Now, are we at all surprised at the concept of “Rabbinic Stress”?
WIY:
Where I often daven, there are several individuals who daven louder than most others. In one case, it is clearly ????, as he tries desperately to insure that others hear him. This same fellow is always yelling at others who have just entered the building, are still discussing something with someone else, and haven’t yet entered the actual beis hamedrash, where tefiloh has not started yet. Another individual paces around, oblivious to the world, davening loudly, but clearly enveloped in his tefilo. This fellow actually triggers ????????. Another is enamored with his own voice, singing his way loudly, looking around to see who is watching.
I’ve been to ball games in my youth, and loud crowds are not the issue. The parallel is selichos, parts of davening that everyone says loudly. I’m not into total silence, as one might find in many churches. But to be disturbing to others is not acceptable.
The true Odom Chashuv does not disturb others, not by davening, nor any other time. Raising the voice is not the problem. One might move hands and arms during davening also. While not on the decibel scale, this, too, can be either spontaneous and reflective of kavanah, or it could be for display purposes only. For the latter, there is a legendary Kotzker vort.
My responsibility by davening is to establish my own connection to ???”?. If it real and sincere, others might be affected by it. But it is not my job to carry on such that it would make a good movie, just to create an impression of sincerity which is untrue.
Most askanim do nice things. Most pilots land their planes safely. Most plumbers fix leaks well. It’s incompetent and plainly dishonest to brand the many who volunteer their own time for the good of Klal Yisroel as anything less than Baalei Chesed, from which you benefit as well as others. Moshe Rabbeinu gave serious mussar to Klal Yisroel (????? ??? ?? ?’ ?”?) when they said ?????? ??? ???? ????? in complaining about the ??, where he called them ????? ???? ??? ????? ????. To reject the extents of chesed done for you is a despicable trait, and there are so many askanim from whom you derive direct and indirect benefit. There are rotten apples in every barrel, and they should be held responsible for their actions. Meanwhile, those ?????? ????? ????? ?????? are recognized in public every single Shabbos, and are given accolades recognizing that they are deserving of ???, as well as ????? ??????, and ?????, for their ??????, above and beyond what they may otherwise earn from their ????? ?????.
Kavanah is never measured in decibel level. One may not daven loudly in a manner that is disturbing to others. It is commonplace in many shuls that there are individuals who are so enamored with their own voice that they continually make themselves heard at the expense of others. Likewise, there is often a “rebbe” who puts on a display of answering ??? or ??? ???? ??? in a way which “appears” to be righteous but is really old fashioned ????. We must be constantly aware that true kavanah is completely ????? ????.
It is a great idea to do something in each and every tefila that is totally personal. One magid shiur would suggest to his talmidim that each bochur say something personal in every ???? ???? that was recited silently and his own language. Someone else suggested that everyone choose any part of davening, a bracha, a posuk, etc., study it, and make it their own. That would be always the place during which that individual would establish a connection to ???”?. hopefully, that would expand, but there is at least some place during tefila where the connection to ???”? occurs.
In any community consisting of many people, there are some nice ones and some who are not nice. There are good plumbers, and bad ones. There are good Bnei Kollel, and bad ones. There are good Rabbonim and bad ones. There are good pilots, and bad ones. There are good askanim, and bad ones.
I’ve previously self identified as an askan. I am familiar with many others, and some of us are wonderful people, adhering to very strong ethics and Torah values. And there are some who are “shvitzers” who are only invested in themselves, getting their thrills from being involved in Klal issues. These latter creatures are not among those who we label, every Shabbos, as ?????? ????? ????? ??????. The last word, ?????, says a lot. And it is the difference between those who take ???? ???? out of context to manipulate people, and those who volunteer their personal time to assist others, ???? or ????? to make the world a better place. It is the instruction in Pirkei Avos (1:2):
??? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????
Just as anyone here would investigate a prospective shidduch for a child, or might inquire to know more about a therspist, one should seek references about an askan. The majority, probably an overwhelming one are great ???? ???. Statistically, one might well do well to expect any given askan to be an upright and honest person. But there are exceptions that are newsworthy (dog bites man is not newsworthy, but man bites dog is). It shouldn’t hurt to investigate.
In the context of this discussion, an askan is someone who gets involved in various individual or communal issues to try and resolve problems. Here are just a few examples:
Ploni was arrested for driving without his drivers license. He needs to be gotten out of jail, and allow the judicial processes to continue without incarceration.
There is a large affair, wedding, Hachnosas Sefer Torah, asifa, levaya r”l, which will require crowd control and assistance from various government and law enforcement agencies.
Some of the activities of known organizations such as Hatzoloh, Shomrim, etc. are askanus.
Issues in many of the frum communities are addressed by askanim (as opposed to officials of any sort), such as bike lanes in neighborhoods that are offended by such traffic, parking issues, communal locations for burning chometz, the famous islands that obstructed traffic near Maimonides Hospital, etc. These issues are generally brought to authorities, but it is tireless work of dedicated volunteers (a.k.a. askanim) that facilitate these solutions.
I am an askan. I have never manipulated a single Rav. I have also been extremely cautious in presenting information to rabbonim, including being brutally honest with information, and never pressuring anyone to pasken or take any action based on my word alone. Yet, I am aware that there are certain askanim that do exactly as is alleged in the OP. I can say, having spoken directly to many rabbonim, that there were many forged or coerced signatures on some of the bans on some things. In the case of Rav Shmuel shlit”a, his signatures were elicited by direct manipulation. he stated so publicly, and I heard it from him directly.
I would not brand all askanim as dishonest, not even a majority. But there are those that give a bad name to rest of us. It’s unfortunate, because many, if not most, of the advances that have happened in Klal Yisroel for the past many years are direct results of the work of askanim.
Have any readers here ever attended a levaya ch”v of someone famous? There is some organization and order, including police protection in place. Just who arranges that? Askanim. There are countless examples I can cite, but will not spend the time now. There is much work to do.
??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????.
“Staying in yeshiva” does not guarantee anyone’s hashkofos. What ultimately matters is what someone does while in yeshiva, and whether they are fulfilling the advice in Pirkei Avos, ??? ?? ??.
If someone “just gets by” in yeshiva, the environment has limited impact on him, and this bochur allows himself to be impressed by anything he chooses. While this can be the hadracha of the yeshiva and its hanhala, it can also be the exposure to anything and everything else. If we fail to ignite the passion for Avodas Hashem in favor of the academic achievements in learning, we can easily lose such talmidim to the enticements and attractions of the outside world. It is incumbent on all mechanchim of all levels to address that pintele in each and every talmid so that they will progress in their appropriate track of Avodas Hashem (???? ???? ?? ?? ????). We can then be zocheh to retain these talmidim as ????? ???”?, regardless of where they spend their time, in yeshiva or the working world.
hello99:
Reb Nehorai (Reb Meir) was not advocating this for the entire population. He specifically addressed his comment about his son because he knew him and his kishronos. He knew that his son would achieve the success in learning that made it necessary that he remained in 100% learning. In contrast, we have countless tano’im and amora’im that were craftsmen and workers of various sorts. That is, they worked even with their superior level of learning.
Working women, who wish to assume the responsibility for bringing the parnosoh, are truly righteous. However, it is despicable to create a generation in which all sons are expected to become gedolei hador at the expense of their wives who are sentenced to full time and work (and then some). The “Kollel lifestyle” has its place of honor, but it cannot be universal. It is neither appropriate for many, and it is a fatal error for the Klal. Again, it is not fathomable that the pioneers who launched such concepts (Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L and others) intended for the current abuse of that system.
I wonder at the discrepancy between the learning hours of the full time yeshiva bochur and that of the Kollel yungerman. It is with the recognition that the yungerman has responsibilities to the home (wife and children), and may have limited hours to be available for those duties. Yet, most kollelim have extremely light schedules, with most sedorim being shorter that that of the yeshiva bochur.
The true Kollel yungerman manages to make the extra hours without detracting from home responsibilities. What percentage of Kollelim are filled with these youngerleit, and how many have non-dedicated young men hiding from being baalei parnosoh?
There are several problems with today’s matzav. Here are some impressions and observations.
1. A community that drives all the young people to stay and learn cannot sustain itself. There will be no breadwinners, and thus it will bankrupt itself in a short time.
2. Without enough baalei batim with capability of supporting the community causes, there will be greater dependence on public sources of funding. The economy affects this disastrously, as we all witness.
3. The across-the-board guidance that each and every talmid must dedicate himself to full time learning is a gross mistake. Some are appropriate for this; many are not. It is not useful to force a talmid who is not capable to stay “stuck” in learning. He will not succeed, and he will have been directed away from pursuit of a career that would maximize his potential.
4. Dovid Hamelech said, ??????? ?? ???, effectively expressing the expectation that Yidden will be involved in every form of work/business where we can patronize each other. It was a single Tanna that stated that he will teach his son “only Torah”. He knew his child and his ???????, and full time learning was fitting.
5. As our talmidim reach upper adolescence, there is less and less ?????. Many do not succeed at applying themselves at full strength in learning. The self-motivation we eagerly seek is not the rule, but rather an exception. The concept of “learning boy” is as much a myth for the boys as it is for the girls.
6. Our Roshei Yeshivos often hardly know their talmidim. If they did, they would know who was ????? to progress greatly in learning and who not. They would graciously guide each talmid to pursue the “ehrliche baal habos” or the “career talmid chochom” futures appropriate for him. Today’s yeshivos do not have the resources to produce the “ehrliche baal habos” who is ???? ???? ?????, as the concepts of ???? ???? ?? ???? and ????? ???? ???? ??? are frowned upon. One cannot teach the value of working as a ?? ???? then that life is constantly viewed as flawed.
It will take major change in the world of chinuch to produce the conversion back to the value based Yiddishkeit that existed in earlier generations. Today’s system produces kids at risk, streets full of disillusioned children and communities full of adults who are robotic in their fulfillment of Torah and Mitzvos.
?? ?’ ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????
Oh Shreck:
Firstly, we seem to be in agreement on ???? ?????. In today’s world, use of corporal punishment which can be academically explained is hardly or rarely permitted since our rebbes or teachers have not established the loving relationship in which the potch would be educational.
Secondly, we seem to have some disagreement on a quite important matter. Nothing I said should have been taken as a dismissal of the wise words of Shlomo Hamelech. Quite the contrary. I only expect his words to be recognized as a statement about last resort. Why? Because his words were carefully chosen. He never instructed one to use physical force to teach. Such a statement would not have been worded in the negative (?????). I make my point to challenge those who are so eager to justify smacking children that they simply anticipate the opportunity and grab it when it comes. That is NOT chinuch. That is utter abuse of a posuk, as well as of a child.
So I am not waving off a posuk, but rather striving to understand it so that it can be utilized with the intent in which it was written. This is not liberal hogwash. It is simply examination of the holy words of a posuk in Mishlei and the interpretation that is obvious once it is read in context.
mitzvahgirl613:
That story is truly great. One thing bothered me, though it is not about your story but something in general. Let’s follow the logic.
The goal of all schooling, at least that which is considered Torah chinuch, is to help each student develop into a carrier for the next generation, another link in the chain of Yiddishkeit, progressing from Matan Torah through all of our history and into the future. It is clear that the goal of such chinuch is to produce the Yiras Hashem and Ahavas Hashem that forms that link. The volume of data that has been transmitted is not even a factor in that formula. Whether someone retains more or less information, be it psukim of Chumash, numbers of Mishnayos, or blatt of Gemora is completely irrelevant. Why then are report cards, that are meant to reflect the success of a talmid/oh based on grades that reflect only retention of information? Perhaps these report cards portray more of the teacher’s success than anything informative about the student.
Your teacher’s comment was beautiful. It would have been unnecessary if the process of grading was geared to overall progress of the student growing into a fine Bas Yisroel, not the capacity to spit back information on tests. You were indeed fortunate to have a teacher who valued the right things. Maybe we will be zocheh in our days to see schools focus more on development of character than on downloading data.
rebdoniel:
“Depends how you define abuse. Corporal punishment is not inherently abusive, despite what the social workers and shrinks want you to think.”
???????? ????????, ??????? ?????; ?????????, ???????? ??????
This posuk is abused grossly by many who have not actually sat down to study it. ???? ???? was beyond brilliant in this statement (as if he needs haskomoh from me). He specifically NEVER stated that hitting is advised or recommended. If you look closely at the posuk, it is clear that the “rod” is a last resort. True chinuch is based on transmitting the ?????? of Torah. It is only when these methods are ineffective (and we know that there are no health issues, learning disorders, etc. that are responsible for the observed difficulties) that there is a valid reason to examine other alternatives, such as ???? ????. The true mechanech is the one that loves his talmid, and fulfills the second half of the posuk which is a clear directive – ?????? ???? ????. It is disturbing to see the proponents of corporal punishment consider this a choice method of education.
We are gifted with a growing array of reputable ????? on chinuch, either authored by well experienced mechanchim, or with haskomos from Gedolei Yisroel. Visit your favorite seforim store, buy a few of these, and look through the opinions of Gedolei Yisroel about the use of hitting. It is not non-existent, as some of the “modern” thinkers are accused of saying. Just pure Torah based direction. Without a question, it is a last resort, and I say this al pi Gedolei Yisroel.
Meanwhile, in clear refuting of the many statements of Gedolei Yisroel and master Torah mechanchim, it is common that the use of petch by a frustrated and angry rebbe is accepted, while the effect is usually negative. These are the ones who abuse the posuk of ???? ????.
Just because we have become indoctrinated that Torah is the only umnus (for which one must be rational and question whether this is for every single person), that does not make the billboard less than 100% OK. The sponsors are aware that not every bochur is destined to be klai kodesh, and cookie cutting them to remain in full time learning is likely NOT ratzon Hashem. The message is to remember the holy words of Chazal, then interpret them according to what HKB”H really demands of us.
Maybe not every single bochur should take secular studies. But that none should be prepared for work is equally if not more ridiculous.
Several of the points in earlier comments are well taken. Not stopping to answer Kaddish or engaging in conversation that is potentially disturbing to others are wrong. No one can argue. I struggle to understand the use of the CR to complain against an individual, even if anonymously. We have deteriorated to a level of being busy complaining about others. Have we been at the level of perfection in keeping our side of the street clean? Why are we always busy with the spiritual level of others. I have heard elders say, quite rightly, that we should be busy with “yenem’s gashmiyus” to insure they have what to eat and how to subsist, and “dem aigenem’s ruchniyus” one’s own spirituality. It appears that our generation has veered far from this.
If someone is talking in shul, I feel it is needed to just politely and simply ask him to stop from being disturbing. Today, it is common to witness at least one person adopting the position as “G-d’s policeman” and yelling at talkers, shaming them without the need to do so. What they might have accomplished with silencing the improper talk was lost in the aveiro of public shaming – malbin pnei chaveiro b’rabim. There needs to be a more pleasant way to accomplish the goal without committing more aveiros in the process.
Can anyone investigate scientific fact before proclaiming things in the CR? Smoking has its dangers, and so does drinking. I’m also not quite sure about Rabbi Bender’s seeming dismissal of smoking as not so rampant, but I do respect his interest in keeping a solitary focus. He is absolutely correct that the drinking problems today are being ignored, and that there are patterns that have infiltrated our community that feed the problems. When I was younger, there was no one I knew who could explain to you what mixed drinks were. There simply was no such thing as social drinking. At a sholom zochor, beer was only ingested as a ritual, “oif yotzeh tzu zein”, not guzzled. Other liquors were barely touched, just for the l’chaim or for Kiddush. None of that is true today. We never knew anything about expensive liquors. Visit any liquor store today, and the difference is immense.
If we model drinking for pleasure, our children will mimic the drinking for pleasure (or to escape from the pain of reality). We just display that the numbed state of mind is okay or even a positive thing. There is nothing good about that, and it is certainly not compatible with a lifestyle that seeks to fulfill ratzon Hashem. Rabbi Bender is perfectly on target. Is there anyone listening, or are we busy looking to critique him? How about just accepting the nudge, and doing what is right?
Smoking in a responsible manner? What have you been smoking? Besides, who said the commonly believed practice of getting drunk on Purim is OK? Drunkeness is not the danger free state you think, and that is clearly assur. That is NOT the Purim mitzvah. Other threads in the CR address that, and have done so annually. I won’t repeat my position on that subject, and the poskim need to every year because of their responsibility to the community. It may be practical to say that the damage done to the lungs from a single cigarette is so small that the lungs will function well even with a few non-functional, plugged alveoli. But that does not mean that halacha permits this minimal damage. That is not what occurs with alcohol.
The poskim have not created an issur. They simply applied it. That is why the issur of chovel be’atzmo or venishmartem which always existed were not followed with regards to smoking in earlier years. In fact, all of Torah shebe’al peh is the application and derivation of halachos of life from Torah. No one is creating gezairos (though Rabenu Gershom did precisely that with bigamy, privacy, and forced gittin).
Alcohol does not damage the brain. It affects the brain, and the brain recovers from the effects. The brain damage from alcohol is irreversible. Check with any neurologist or addiction professional. If it damaged anything, the halachos of chovel etc. would be relevant.
I could get into piercings, but I’m fear dragging this thread into other directions. Simply put, piercings have always been done, and we find it in Torah as well. If a piercing is done irresponsibly, there is risk of infection, and would fall into the halachic categories mentioned earlier. This is an issue with some teens at risk who cannot get parental permission or funding to get these done, who then choose to do it themselves. This would be assur, not by my decree, but by simply applying known issurim and their criteria.
In the many posts in the CR on smoking, there are always a few voices that equate smoking with overeating or alcohol, therefore being mevatel the concept of issur. Aside from the fact that this challenges the gedolei haposkim of today’s generation, this is flawed logic. Food and alcohol are not dangerous, and are not toxic to the body. There would not be a requirement of basic nutrition nor mitzvos involving wine if these were unhealthy. However, anything can be used to excess or in dangerous patterns, and that is assur. The Rambam addresses this openly. However, there is nothing that can be considered a mitzvah or healthy from inhaling smoke. Nothing. In fact, if not for tobacco smoking, one would be shocked at the very practice of inhaling smoke. If your pot of chicken on the stove burnt, would you stand by the lid opening and whiffing or would you ventilate the kitchen?
For someone with a personal sensitivity (similar to an allergy), one must refrain from something that is otherwise okay. That is where wine and food fit. If the insinuation is that there is an issur for an alcoholic to drink even a single sip of spirits, that would be a logical parallel. For the eating disorder sufferer to indulge in foods that are toxic to his/her personal sensitivity, 100% agreed that this is assur. But the parallel with the single cigarette that does cause damage (even though the body can recover and repair the minimal ingestion) is incorrect. Again, the poskim have spoken, and I referenced their psak halacha earlier. If anyone here in the CR disagrees, I hope you are equal ????? ?????? to the poskim that declared the issur.
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??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ???, ???? ?? ???? ??, ??? ?????? ???, ?? ????? ????? ???, ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????, ??”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????, ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????, ???? ???? ???”? ??????? “??? ???”. ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? “????? ?? ?????” ???? ???? ?? ????.
Please check out this sefer and others. Even the first cigarette is assur, and there are many quotes to this from many of the gedolei haposkim. You may wish things to follow your logic and desire, but the facts are clear.
This post needs to be relegated to the humor pile. The two comments above are infantile and uneducated. Pardon the comparison, but do obstetricians discriminate against men?
Psychiatrists see far more male patients with presenting symptoms of ADHD than female patients. Why? For several reasons. One – there are more boys with these issues than females. Two – referrals to psychiatrists are more common for boys than girls. Three – there are differences in reporting. There may be many other possible reasons. It is ridiculous to point to a statistic, consider it fact without having studies it, and then reaching conclusions from it. It might make interesting small talk, but nothing of true value.
147: Take your tongue out of your cheek. It looks stupid. Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”L is misquoted so often on this issue it is frightening. He made a single comment in a particular context. It is immoral to generalize it to anywhere else. Yes, some psychiatrists need help themselves. So do plumbers, accountants, roshei yeshivos, etc…
benignuman:
Your premise is incorrect. There is much written about the dangers of a single cigarette, and the discussion is included in some of the sforim about smoking in halacha. It is without any shadow of a doubt that smoking even a single cigarette is assur. I urge you to educate yourself before making proclamations. Before I ever allowed myself to discuss the subject, I did extensive study of the medical research, collected the writings from the gedolei haposkim, and discussed the issues intensely with several rabbonim who assured me that I was reading the issues correctly. perhaps I qualify as an expert on the subject, but I will not adopt that mantle. I am not afraid to make a statement that is fully supported by halacha, al pi gedolei haposkim of today’s generation.
Much of today’s “Jewish” music is a serious problem. If not expressly lifted from goyishe sources, with words from Tehilim or Tefilo pasted on, many songs composed from scratch are completely lacking “Yiddishe taam”. Our simchos are polluted with such melodies, and it is common to find many people plainly offended by the noise. It would be nice if some of the musicians would pledge to refrain from playing all of that junk, and get a hechsher that attests to it. Then rabbonim and roshei yeshivos should pledge to reject offers of sidur kidushin or other kibudim, even appearing at the chasunos, if the musician lacks a hechsher. That might just make a dent.
Derech Hamelech:
I am mochel you for the weird misreading of my comment. You are correct that the scouting for the latest fashions is inconsistent with Ahavas Hashem and Yiras Hashem. I favor the not following of latest styles. That was not my focus. I was directing my remarks to the preoccupation of a yeshiva with issues that are of comparatively little importance. We have managed to raise a younger generation that have not been inculcated with the values that promote Torah and Mitzvos. Just the picture perfect family and personal appearance. Peruse the many photographs in our frum media (digital and print) of every Rav, Dayan, Rebbe, Rosh Yeshiva, etc. doing various activities, be it mitzvos, social, etc. In essence, these photos are not a problem. We are guided to see our leaders and derive Yiras Hashem from the experience. But we have gotten stuck in photography. The proliferation of these magazines and sections in the newspapers has not made a dent on the lack of Yiras Shomayim that would be required to abstain from the decadence of the internet, the streets, etc. Our incidence of white collar crime and scandals has not waned a bit. I suggest that the focus on the externals has come at great cost, where the true values that need to be imparted and emphasized are in last place.
I do not advocate being stylish. That is equally silly. But to ignore the unpopularity of Yiras Hashem while attending to specifics of manner of dress is not the mission of yeshivos.
Derech HaMelech:
Following your logic, the more a menahel or rebbe is interested in the externals of his talmidim, the less he will be able to concentrate on the ruchniyus. There is nothing wrong with a dress code in a yeshiva, but all of these gashmiyus issues that are truly trivial have become priority over the mission of transmitting the values of Ahavas Hashem and Yiras Hashem to the younger generation. We’re in trouble until the nonsense stops.
The sefer ??? ???? ?????. I have the entire sefer in one volume, an old print. It was reprinted in 5 volumes. I do not have the precise reference, but it should not be hard to find.
It’s in the sefer. Until it became a popular thing to print up or wire around the internet, I used to mark the place in the sefer and say it from there.
There are separate issues here.
1) If someone had the intention to give $100 to one person, then had a second thought to spread it around – several tzaddikim experienced this and felt this was “atzas hayetzer”. They followed their original plan. This experience is common, if we choose to examine our thoughts carefully. I would personally hate to allow my yetzer horah to influence my performance of mitzvos.
2) There is actually a beautiful discussion by the Mahara”l (Gur Aryeh – beginning of Parshas Trumah) where he notes that there were 3 trumos, of which two were each a Machatzis Hashekel, but the third was based on “Yidvenu libo”, according to the generosity of his heart. He explains that this was proportional, not based on the shekel amount. One who had less but gave more (greater in his generosity) was performing the bigger mitzvah. He uses this to explain the famous mishnah of “Eizehu oshir hasomeyach bichelko”. Simcha denotes the joy shared with another, and refers to tzedokoh. Check out the Mahara”l.
E-O-M
I won’t divulge enough information to reveal my identity, but I have extensive experience and education in the field. None of my beliefs are misguided, and none are based on the street. I do not benefit in any way from the criminalization of marijuana. I recognize the public safety issue, with a wealth of scientific data plus experience to support my view.
Forgetting the studies, I have broad experience with individuals whose lives were shattered by marijuana, excluding the legal aspect of it. In fact, I am a staunch proponent of criminalizing tobacco. I don’t invest time and energy in that, as it will fail.
Been watching quietly for a while. Time to weigh in.
Boys who use their MJ off campus should not be disciplined about it? Did I read that correctly? How bizarre! My problem with people smoking dope is that it scrambles their brains, making them less than capable of using their saichel for anything. The location where they ingested the junk has no relevance. It’s not the crime of smoking. Who can’t figure that out?
Cannabis is not low on the list of negative consequences. healthwise, a single joint puts tobacco to shame, many times over. A single joint contains over 400 carcinogens. The effects of a single joint are far reaching medically, and those forms of damage continue as long as the stuff is present, up to a week for even such “minimal” usage. Read the research, then tell me how this stuff is safe enough to be legal.
Educating boys on the dangers of cannabis is of minimal value, though it needs to done anyway. Most kids accept the misinformation that circulates the streets, not the accurate science that would be taught. Have you ever met someone who used MJ on a regular basis whose brain was fried? How about men who lost their facial hair because of damage to their male glands? These are just a few. There may be no risk of overdose, but the extent of other destruction is staggering. Again, check the research. Then why do some want to legalize it? This is the same as what Chazal tell us about Yidden worshipping avoda zarah, that it was to change the rules and allow for arayos. If one wants taavah permitted, just change the rules, don’t break them.
Some years ago, the Journal of American Medical Association published data that found the incidcence of driving under the influence of cannabis was almost five times that of alcohol! It recommended defensive driving, since catching everyone was unlikely. Other research suggested that drunk drivers are caught 1 time for every 75 times doing so. Ouch!
yitz17:
While it the Chofetz Chaim that makes an issue of starting smoking as being an aveiro because of the dependency, most other poskim focus purely on the medical damage. I refer you to some of the seforim on smoking that address the subject of the single cigarette, quoting the Gedolei Haposkim who are unanimous in declaring the issue involved from even this “minimal” damage. To treat this lightly is irresponsible, and not consistent with halacha.
It is true that stopping smoking can often lead to enough healing of whatever body tissues have been affected. Counting on that as a heter to start is stupid. It is like cutting yourself just because the wound will eventually heal. So the notion of bochurim being allowed to take up smoking on the smach they will later quit is immature, medically foolish, and against halacha.
Here come the liberal voices seeking to minimize and legalize tobacco and marijuana. Phooey!
The dangers of tobacco, including the addiction potential, were not realized fully many years ago. The only reason that it is improper to refer to the tzaddikim of yesteryear as addicted to nicotine is because their self-control was immensely powerful, and they would overcome their withdrawal symptoms by their strong dedication to fulfilling Torah and Mitzvos. The Chofetz Chaim ZT”L was vocal about his opposition to smoking, with direct reference to its addictiveness. All of the liberal voices that contaminate the CR with defenses of open violations of ??????? ??? ????????? have failed to refute the amassed scientific data about the dangers of smoking, even the limited amount of cigarettes.
Weed – here I come. I have investigated this issue for years, and I am familiar with the scientific studies that examine the dangers of THC. There is apparently minimal risk of withdrawal and physical dependency. There also appears to be more reverse tolerance than the straightforward kind which is common to most other drugs. However, its medical adversities are many, long term, and most irreversible. I am excluding medical marijuana from my discussion, as it is a subject of much debate, and is always judged by the professional to balance its need versus the risks. The popularization of the legalize pot movement is akin to the ??? ????. It is accepted, not for its altruistic value, but for its flexibility that allows for one to follow the desires for altered states of mind. And that is inconsistent with everything we know about Torah and Ratzon Hashem. If anyone wonders whether I am labeling any casual use of marijuana an aveiro, I’ll skip the suspense. Yes. It is of unquestionable departure from Avodas Hashem. No I do not represent any body that has a political bias, just some knowledge and experience. I would not pronounce tobacco or marijuana as being ranked in either direction for their dangers. The nature of the effects are different. Comparison and contrast are useless.
WIY:
I will disagree that the pizza shops are a “fire”. That is simply not true. Don’t think for a moment that I sanction these casual cross-gender relationships. There will always be a place for the yetzer horah, and without pizza shops, it will find its way into our community. Branding everything that is not perfect as extreme evil is unfair to ourselves. It eliminates the requisite prioritization that is needed for us to live normal, Torah lives. Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L often stated that we need to always be “normal”. The overbanning mentality we have adopted is destructive, not because these things are good. They are not. Not the internet, not the hanging out, etc. But to give these things the status of the truly worst is untrue. I vote against internet access without filters. I’m not tolerant of pritzus. But we have slipped into a lifestyle of bans, whether decreed by Kol Korehs, letters, ads in the media, etc., without the desperately needed fires of kedusha to sustain us.
The approach of battling the yetzer horah begins with “yaasok baTorah, and is followed by “yikro Kriyas Shema”, and as a last resort “yazkir lo yom hamisah”. As noted earlier, the asei tov is bypassed, and we are preoccupied with making things assur. This may sound appropriate, but it misses the point. It does not work.
I am convinced that some of the voices here that are taking seemingly opposite approaches are all missing the point. There may be little to no justification for the existence of hangout spots. Regardless, to approach this problem by banning them is totally immature, let alone futile. We’re all missing the forest for the tree. What preserves a child remaining on the derech is the genuine love for Yiddishkeit in the way it was transmitted from the adult generation. And that, my dear friends, is becoming nearly obsolete. Parents are busy, harried, and pressured. Mechanchim are usually poorly trained, overburdened with work inratio to their meager salaries, and are more likely to get sucked into the discipline battle. There is too little occurring that should make Yiddishkeit a desirable thing to our children. Yeshivos are more interested in compelling my kids to conform to some uniformed standard, and almost disinterested whether he is developing a love for HKB”H and His Torah. There is likewise a preoccupation with making the receipt of tuition monies a priority to his schooling, proven by the ease in which he will be denied entry to the building if there is financial hardship and an outstanding balance. If my kid has the “right” look, he is welcome. If he wears the wrong shirt, yarmulka, glasses, or shoes, his learning becomes irrelevant. Some attack such patterns as hypocrisy. Perhaps. I attack them as a form of abuse, and I consider those who push away these children as rotzchim. No one has convinced me that such exclusions are Ratzon Hashem. So why do these “rules” continue?
Yes, we have abandoned HKB”H in this quest to have the greatest yeshivos, with the most respectable images. Are these mosdos producing gedolim or just robots who somehow tolerated this charade, or managed to develop Ahavas hashem despite the best efforts to scuttle it?
Our attempts at “Sur mai’ra” are failing miserably. Have we skipped over the need for “Asei Tov”?
It is quoted from the Bobover Rebbe Reb Shloimele ZT”L that Lag Baomer was a major pilgrimage to Krakow, where the throngs would visit the grave of the Rem”a. He described that the average year on Lag Baomer there were as many as 120 weddings in Krakow, with wedding beginning the night of Lag Baomer, more in the morning after Shacharis, more at mid-day, and again before nightfall. He described how the trains knew there was major travel in the Jewish community, and typically made a “buy one, get one free” sale on train tickets. He described a common practice of entrepreneurial Yidden who would take a horse and wagon ride from Krakow to the nearest other train station, buy a ticket to Krakow which was short distance and inexpensive, and take the free ticket to distant cities for business such as Berlin, Leipzig, Vienna, etc. These tickets were then often scalped.
I am reading some of these comments here with shock. Here’s why.
If we, as a community (parents, yeshivos/schools, shuls, etc.) do not make Yiddishkeit meaningful and rewarding, our kids will look for excitement elsewhere. All efforts to legislate this away with restrictions, bans, removal of hechsherim, etc. are all a ???? ?????. They will not work. All our fears about OTD will unfortunately remain intact and unaffected. Is there saichel around somewhere?