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PAA:
Please explain. I learned plenty about reinforcement schedules. I have even actually met BF Skinner. My point was that the prevailing understanding is that the consequence must be within a limited time period of the behavior to serve as a modifier (reward vs. punishment). In the case of using a potch, which has limited application in chinuch, the seforim are unanimous that it should NOT be done immediately since that is reactive and contraindicated. This distinction highlights the role of the consequences used in education to be “teaching moments”, not about behavior change. That speaks directly to the mission of chinuch, and is a critical issue.
Now, what was the problem with my high school science class?
My point was not that parents or mechanchim want to harm kids. Chas veshalom. It is that there are methods that are used with the belief that they are part of chinuch, but are really destructive. Such beliefs are tragically rampant.
There are shelves worth of seforim about chinuch. Unfortunately, none of them are popular or required texts for parents or those working in the educational field. The contents of these seforim derives completely from Torah, not secular study, so there is no acceptable reason to reject or ignore this great body of knowledge and guidance.
Virtually all of them that address the use of the “potch” are clear that giving one reactively is not chinuch, and is destructive. Rather, all advise to wait for another point in time when the mechanech (including parent) is no longer in reaction mode. When one sees this advice, one might question the observation we learned in high school science class, that rewards or punishments that are not nearly immediate to the behavior have no effect on modifying it. However, if we take a closer look at what chinuch entails, it is not about shaping behavior at all. It is about teaching. And the use of consequences for behavior are not intended to force compliance, but to educate the child. If a consequence, whether reward or punishment does not teach the child to want to act properly, then it is not chinuch. Punishment most often falls into that category. That is why Shlomo Hamelech referred to the use of the “rod” in an expression that does not suggest it but rather that it should not be excluded.
The reactive “potch” is labeled by the Brisker Rov ZT”L as an issur of injuring another. Others say similar pronouncements about how we “discipline” children. Check out the many seforim from Gedolei Yisroel of the present and previous generations about chinuch. I have not written any chiddushim here.
AZOI.IS
1. Dov has listened to this issue before, and Caller was not bringing up something unheard of. He had investigated the matter several times, and found many reasons why it would not work.
2. There is a separate question here. Should there be more housing in Boro Park? There is a strong argument that there should not be. The neighborhood is hopelessly overcrowded. Every existing home is full of occupants, and many have additional residents (let’s ignore whether these basement apartments are even legal). Parking a car near a store or even near a home is a nightmare. Bus stops are a half block each, and there are double the number of fire hydrants needed (unless you’re a canine). There is a mentality common to BP that one’s married children must live near them. I have married children living in proximity, and their frequent visits, especially when the grandchildren come, are nice and enjoyable. But this is NOT a necessity. Children should be encouraged to live wherever they will be comfortable. Sentencing them to live in cramped apartments, many of which were built in the 1800’s is abusive and cruel. If we became more willing to let go of our children at marriage, and let them live in other locations, we will accomplish much for them, for ourselves, for the neighborhood, and for the other communities where they will live and bring Yiddishkeit. I am openly encouraging my married kids to live elsewhere and to visit.
Brisker:
The list of poskim is staggering – that every cigarette is an issur d’oraysa. It is on tape from Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L. The list in seforim on the subject is impressive. Sorry if you wish to minimize it. The comparison to gilui arayos is not frivolous. Suicide is a form of retzicha, and that places it within the parameters of the 3 aveiros chamuros.
DY: You bet I have an agenda. It is to eradicate aveiros. We just recited “Ki saavir memsheles zadon min ha’aretz”, that evil, aka yetzer horah, will be banished from this world. It is my agenda, and should be yours, too. So far, I have never twisted a halacha. I refer you to review the seforim with haskamos from virtaually all the recognized gedolim of today, with direct quotes from those of today and recent past. I will not bother with statements about tzaddikim from generations ago, when the dangers of smking were unknown. Yes, I have the agenda of those poskim (almost all) who recognize the issur of smoking.
Let’s suppose he discovers that his chavrusa was surfing the internet for schmutz. Would you then approve of his being dropped as a chavrusa? The smoker is violating open halachos about “Venishmartem me’od lenafshosaichem”, and this has been stated openly by scores of Poskim and Gedolei Hador. There are numerous threads here about the issur of smoking, and repetition is useless. The point here is that one may choose to drop a baal aveiro as a chavrusa.
If one does not care about adhering to mitzvos, as is apparent in his choice to continue smoking when the world’s greatest poskim declared it against halacha, why would one respect that individual’s Torah that he chooses to not follow?
I will yield to others to post the links to previous discussions about the halachic aspects of smoking.
Lastly, I have read the gibberish from those proponents of smoking. Every single one approaches the issue as something that “must be muttar because I wish to do it with impunity”. They continue on to twist logic and words of halacha psukah to meet their predetermined goal of brandishing a heter. This is a form of self-bribery, and is not halachically sound.
yytz:
Your turn for some re-education.
I am not the one who pushes medication for anything, and the judgment that it is required needs to be a professional, qualified balance between risks and benefits. You are correct that schizophrenia and other psychoses require medication. However, there are biochemical substrates to many other conditions. Not all depressions should be considered for medication. Someone whose depression is characterological, related to life events of losses and tragedies, etc. might well not even respond to anti-depressant medication. The professional evaluator should know the difference. In addition, today’s psychiatrists have only one part of their practice that is not shared with their non-medical colleagues in mental health – pharmacotherapy. Today’s psychiatrists specialize in using medications, not any version of talk therapy. People go for meds, not other forms of treatment. You have a point in the overuse of medication, but because psychiatrists only prescribe today, and because people tend to seek the quick fix. For these cases, medication is rarely effective. No pill enhances self esteem or makes people use better judgment. There is no “happy pill”.
Your meta-analysis studies – please provide a link or reference. I have reviewed many studies, and none of them resemble what you describe. Same goes for the rampant corruption you describe.
As for concentration problems, one would be wise to seek the evaluation and direction from only those psychiatrists who specialize in this area. The medication choices are better than in years past, but not every patient responds to the same medication. Unfortunately, too much prescribing in this area is done by those with mediocre (that’s overly generous) training and experience in attentional/concentration disorders. Many psychiatrists are not trained to work with children, and pediatricians have minimal psychiatric training in their background. Yet, our schools mandate medication before allowing a child with issues back into the school, as if the yeshiva staff have the expertise to evaluate, diagnose, and develop a treatment plan.
Bottom line – medication might not be a last resort. It is either required, or not. When not, it will not help and possibly harm. We just need to insure that proper evaluation is done to discern whether meds are a reasonable approach.
yytz:
Some re-education needed here.
Psychology professors and atheism. This has little to no effect on clinical practice. For the greatest part, professors are academics, not clinicians. Furthermore, the ethical standards for all mental health professions (in many areas the laws regulating the practice, as well) prohibit any interference with the client’s value or belief system. If a psychologist or other therapist were to try convincing a client to abandon his/her faith, they would be sanctioned and perhaps lose their license. You are correct when the influence is more subtle, but that is in conflict with the training and professional standards.
Medication – it is either needed, or it is contraindicated. This forum is not a place where to pronounce whether medication is good, not good, or just a last resort. Even the non-medically trained therapists need to know when medication needs to be considered an option. To be anti medication is purely irresponsible. When it is not needed, it should not be taken.
You wrote: “My own view is that medications should be used far less than they are, because of side effects, dependency, and the evidence showing that non-medical interventions (exercise, meditation, prayer, even dark chocolate) work as well or better than medications in improving mood.”
All medications, including OTC ones,have side effects. None should ever be used unless they are indicated. The physician prescribes a medication with considering the balance between the risks (side effects) and benefits. Other opinions do not matter here. Dependency is a risk for only certain classes of medications. SSRI’s, for instance, do not carry dependency risk. There are a few case studies that found some technical aspects of physical dependency, but not at a level that is a challenge to overcome. Otherwise, dependency is usually not a factor. If symptoms return after stopping a medication, it indicates that it is still needed, not dependency. Non-medical interventions are sometimes effective. I have benefited from them myself. For certain conditions, they might be the treatment of choice. It is not appropriate to consider these as replacements for the other therapeutic methods. Exercise, prayer, and meditation are fabulous with wonderful results. It is the rare exception that these are substitutes for medication when it is needed.
Improving mood can involve many factors. Words of chizuk can be precious. So can humor. Yet, these are not treatments, but temporary methods of relief. Use them all you like, but do not into the anti-therapy mode, as it will not help much.
Frum…..:
Not sure where you took your courses. I will share what I know about mine and those to which I had exposure. There are several dozen personality theories, and these appear in every textbook used on the subject. Those professors that have their heads screwed on straight (yes, there are some that do) do NOT impose anything on anyone, and allow the students to develop their own path in the understanding of human personality. In fact, there is a grain of truth to every single one, even if there is zero research to support any of its contentions. I found many of them laughable, but interesting nevertheless. If that would not have been the case, even the goyishe kepp that allowed them into academic discussion would have excluded them as eccentric. I bet there are professors that push an agenda, and academia has been accused of that in the past. But that was not my experience, and my discussions with mental health professionals suggests that this agenda driven academia was not their experiences either.
As for free choice or free will, I never saw that anyone minimized it. What is obvious is that the field of psychology sought to understand human behavior enough to be able to predict it. Free will renders that ability less than 100% by definition. But in the real world, one may need to increase the determinant of behavior enough to yield an increase in it, and thus be able to produce changes that are statistically significant. Let’s use a real world example. One wishes to create advertising that produces greater sales and thus profit. In that field, it is known that those elements that draw attention and leave behind memory traces that are stronger will result in positive outcomes. This has been repeated in research countless times. Such application of research findings recognizes that one can influence behavior quite successfully. If these ads do not entice you, the advertiser couldn’t quite care – there are plenty more customers to pad his bottom line. This does not challenge free choice.
In practice, a therapist should not be pushing clients to make specific choices (with the exceptions of where education is needed or where there are issues of safety). It is about helping others make their choices, not pushing an agenda.
Lastly, your last statement to me, “The idea that people can determine their own choices is part of the 13 principles (schar v’onesh) and is the reason the world exists.” is not completely accurate. Yes, people ultimately make their own choices, Torah or psychology notwithstanding. But the Torah itself has an agenda, and we are instructed clearly “Uvochartoh bachayim”. WE are also told what to choose, although we possess the capacity at every juncture to ch”v go the other direction. When the therapist guides a client in making choices, it is truly about helping them in the process. That is what professionals are taught. And maybe there are some that choose to not follow that path. Ultimately, the client chooses the behavior.
You wrote, “I’d also say that psychologists are not – as a group – particularly well studied on the functions and disorders of the soul.” I disagree. Just as with any other group of people, there are those who believe in soul and a spiritual dimension and those who do not. In my personal experience, my interaction with mental health professionals is primarily with frum ones, and I find them to be believers of soul and neshomah. This may be less common among those dedicated to research and other non-applied psychology fields. Just an observation. Personally, I prefer to get my education and guidance on matters of the soul from Torah sources, not secular. I think I’ve done okay. But I do not think the field is set back by ignorance about the soul.
Your concluding line, “Bottom line: Only a fool would completely discount the observations of social scientists and only a fool thinks that socials scientists have all the answers.” is excellent and true.
Rockit:
You wrote, “tlik- and have you yet counted how many casualties have happened from the well intentioned (or not well intentioned) advice given by psychologists and other mental health personnel who did not understand the subject matter? many many more than the casualties that you refer to.”
There are several errors in your thinking here. Let me enumerate some of them.
1 – Advice. The traditional mental health practitioner, with few exceptions, is not an advisor. In fact, giving advice is taboo to most schools of mental health, as the goal is to assist the client in understanding the choices they need to make for their benefit. Direct advice is occasionally given, but this is limited to very specific things.
2 – Who did not understand the subject matter. There are doctors who should never have patients outside of cadavers. There are mechanics who should only fix obsolete gadgets that will never be relied upon. Aside from the fact that no field of service is not without its idiots, mental health is subject to another form of limits. Therapy is not surgery. The client is the effective individual in virtually every single bit of change. It requires the mobilization of internal resources to effect the modification of behavior, the working through of emotions, and all the rest of what clients in therapy must undergo. Even the physician prescribing medication cannot bring about change when the patient must fill the prescription and take it as directed. Yes, mistakes are sometimes made. Overwhelmingly, the failures belong to the client that neglects to take the direction of the professional. Often times the shidduch between the client and therapist is off target.
3 – I’d like to know the source of your information about the greater number of casualties from professionals. The therapists I know have been complaining for years about the bulk of their caseloads coming from the casualties of rabbonim and similar rabbinical persons. In fact, rabbonim have complained to the major organizations in the frum community that they have little problem conducting the affairs of the Moroh D’asra of saying shiurim, appearing and speaking at the simchos of congregants, and other communal events and functions. However, they are overwhelmed at the bludgeoning confrontation with personal problems in their kehilos for which they are not prepared with knowledge or skills.
Thinker:
You wrote, ” I do admit that whilst some of it (evolution and our ‘likeliness to other species’ etc) is apikorsus…”
I must correct you. This line is common. It repeated often enough that it gets its credibility from its frequency, not from fact.
Evolution is not kefira. (No, I’m not a student of Slifkin.) It is pseudo-science that is ridiculous. I would not apply the dignity of kefira to evolution. That would imply that it is a sound theory with factual basis, which it is not.
“Likeness to other species” is certainly not kefira, and the Gemora is replete with the drawing of similarities. Shlomo Hamelech tells us to learn certain midos from various animal species. The Gemora also describes three ways in which humans resemble angels and three ways in which humans resemble animals. The works of Mussar and Chassidus address the concept of “nefesh habehamis”, a reference to the “animal soul” that is part of human composition. This label of kefira is being used almost randomly, and this is not appropriate.
You are correct in noting that therapy is grossly misunderstood, and thus not appropriately recognized. The stigma is misapplied and injurious.
Frumn…..
I get sickened by the implications that connect psychology with kefira. This may sound radical, but I know some Kollel Yungerleit, even some who occupy rabbinical positions of leadership whose emunoh in HKB”H is seriously lacking if not corrupt. The reality is that these dismissals as kefira are somewhere between absurd and ridiculous. Anyone can be a kofer, and their choice career or profession has nothing to do with it.
The fields of mental health involve a wide spectrum of approaches. These stretch from the strictly Freudian approach to the most behavioral, from the uses of medications to various forms of emotional and cognitive therapies. In formal training, there is background taught in a variety of these, and the student is exposed to multiple techniques. As in anything else, people learn certain parts of the science with greater preference, and specialties in the practice of psychology exist just as would be found in auto mechanics, computer programming, law, and medicine. If someone lacks the recognition of the spectrum of the field, and believes his/her specialty is all that exists, we are dealing with a fool, not a kofer. If a doctor fails to recognize an ailment that is outside his/her specialty, than we are dealing with someone lacking competence, not faith.
It is true that the psychologist, just like a doctor, and just like any other worker, needs to know that the outcomes are dependent on Syatta Dishmaya, and to whatever degree relevant, the bechira of the “patient” to follow instructions. HKB”H is “Rofeh Cholei Amo Yisroel”. Health practitioners are only shluchim of HKB”H to carry out His refuah through application of “tevah”. The denier of HKB”H as the actual healer is kefira. But that can refer to the patient or the observer, not just the therapist.
Please don’t get sucked into the baloney that psychology is kefira. It is not so anymore than practice of medicine.
Lastly, it is necessary to comment on a common mistake that is often a fatal error. With all the regard we need to have for “Daas Torah”, it is not a guarantee that consulting a Rov or Rosh Yeshiva about an issue related to mental health is useful. If that person happens to be informed on the subject matter, or can consult with a Torah knowledgeable professional to get informed, that may be great. But too many casualties have happened from the well intentioned advice given by rabbonim who did not understand the subject matter.
This thread gets relaunched by another poster every few months. The same comments appear, and there is nothing that helps to resolve the observed lack of respect that is part of the reaction to “Daas Torah”. It is not about degrading Gedolei Yisroel, nor is it about examining the historical roots of “Daas Torah”.
We have many issues in which practical problems are involved. The questions involve matters of science, human behavior, etc. We once had a Rambam who could derive all these forms of knowledge from the Torah. We lack that today. For all intents and purposes, we cannot reliably identify any individual as a purveyor of Ruach Hakodesh. The best we can hope for is an educated opinion from someone steeped in Torah knowledge. This is not so easy when it comes to matters that require a different body of knowledge. There is other information. Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L was asked countless questions about matters of science and medicine. He turned to scientists to gain better understanding of the subject before issuing a psak. Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach achieved the status as expert in Hilchos Shabbos regarding electricity. This was after hundreds of hours spent learning from electrical engineers and electricians. To rely on some Divine source of information on practical matters is erroneous. I do not deny that Gedolei Yisroel might merit forms of Divine communication. But we cannot rely on that. Today’s world is non-prophet.
I tend to disregard the opinions from rabbonim about scientific matters until I know they have developed expertise in the subject. I continue to respect them, for they possess far greater realms of Torah knowledge that I expect to reach. The questions posed to them need to reflect the expectations of what we can do with their responses.
I’m not understanding some comments here. A marriage requires two people to love each other and jointly make their home function. A home cannot stand with stability if there is disunity. That lack of stability has profound negative effect on the two spouses, and it also affects the children. When a couple gets into the parsha of divorce, they have given up on the prospect of repairing the relationship. It only requires one party to make the marriage non-functional. So if they stayed legally and halachically married, the scars and instability remains. No one stays happy if the halachic get and/or legal divorce are either refused or delayed.
Many commenters addressed the halachos of whether a woman can demand a get if the husband wants to maintain the marriage. I will not enter into that discussion, and it probably is better off being discussed in the beis hamedrash, not cyberspace. The question here, obviously in the general sense, is whether it is OK to withhold a get. The general answer is “Of course not”. But that does not translate into any specific case.
It is foolish to have a mesiras haget before the affairs are settled. Permitted by halacha, but stupid. It takes both parties to negotiate in good faith to reach an agreement. They have usually become adversarial, so this process is bound to involve some complication. Extorting money as a payoff to give or receive a get are commonplace. The vocabulary most appropriate to describe the morality level of this would be blocked by the moderators. Counseling for shalom bayis is great IF BOTH PARTIES WANT IT. If one is motivated and the other is not, the failure is guaranteed. Engaging in a counseling effort may be pleasing to the one referring them and profitable to the one conducting the services and getting paid. But it has no discernible benefit to the marriage.
Anyone doing marital therapy/counseling must assess the motivation level of the two people. It is not the counselor’s role to tell either of them they are wrong or right. That actually promotes divisiveness, and it undermines the prospect of restoring a relationship. If either of them is resolute in wanting to leave the marriage, it is most responsible to accept that and address the future recognizing that they will not function as a couple. This is using saichel, not strict halacha. It is often the letter of the law is not what the ????? instruct us to follow. Maybe the pressuring is worth questioning, but a get should be given when the viability of the marriage is gone. Only one of the two partners in the marriage needs to have given up on it for it to be nonviable. Nothing I said here is partial to either men or women.
It is an ancient observation that the roots of divorce are generally found in the weakness of the bond of the marriage. This can take any of several images. Sometimes it is the poor preparation for marriage that leaves one or both of the young couple stranded without the skills to navigate the challenges. The Steipler ZT”L once noted in reference to a young man who was not managing his end of the marriage well, “What do you expect; for the past 15 years, his only relationship was with a shtender?”
Sometimes one or the other suffers from psychiatric or psychological conditions, either known and withheld or not known. This makes the building of a relationship all but impossible.
Midos tovos do not compromise an academic subject to learn in yeshiva (as in “mussar seder”, but character traits that need to be developed and nurtured. Some people have trouble with this because the nurturing is lacking, others have not had the role models to serve as inspiration.
There are couples that discover differences that are enough to doom the options for a relationship, and should redirect their lives. This sounds easy, but in today’s world it is not. The role model for divorce is set by those couples who gain media attention, as well as those who speak up a lot within the support systems of peers. They “go for the gold” with combative efforts that keep batei din and secular courts busy. They strive for the victory of destroying the other partner, and then have nothing to show for it but their own loneliness. It is truly sad.
While I completely support the “shidduch system”, it is not without its flaws, and these are easily noted and mitigated. A chosson and kallah enter the chuppah as strangers, regardless of the extent of their contact prior to the wedding. Have they been prepared to live life as themselves, as opposed to the facade they were displaying up until that point? Is enough known about the two “kids” prior to entering the shidduch? Are we appeased by the simple, non-informative information about the boy being a “good learner who has good friends” and the girl being a “baalas midos and great personality”? Perhaps we need to know more about how each of them handles stresses and challenges of life. How do they deal with anger? Do they have the capacity to be independent (emotionally, not just financially)? We can surmise the rest of the types of questions.
To whom can a couple speak if they experience difficulties? Do they address their difficulties as reasons to engage in adversarial behavior, or are they seeking resolution? Do they seek companionship and support outside the marriage? There are many questions to ask in this regard.
More to follow.
Charlie:
Let’s say it more generically. Spirituality is the dimension of life that is above that of an animal, and is guided by the direction of a Higher Morality. The degree to which one’s life is connected to his Creator defines the degree of one’s spirituality.
Francorachel3:
You’ve been drinking the kool-aid. I’m very sorry to tell you, but the percentage of false accusations about domestic violence is staggering. The estimates vary between 50-70% being false. All shelters for battered women require charges filed with police. Why? Because this process helps eliminate those accusations that are frivolous. (People mistakenly claim that the sponsoring agencies encouraged police reporting. Actually, it is a requirement of the city government that funds the shelter to insure that those who do not qualify will not be permitted to take up the space that someone who does qualify might need.)
I would never conclude that any report of DV is true or false. Following taking whatever action is needed to insure safety, just in case, there should be some process of investigation to verify whether the accusations have merit. You are correct that some of the perpetrators of DV appear to the public to be “frumme fine mentchen”, and that character witnesses from the shul where they daven are uninformative. You are accurate, but that does not mean there are no false accusations. There are, and the numbers are quite high. If you inquire from the agencies who assist victims of DV, they will confirm that they have men calling as well, and that their cases (by the time they seek outside help) are even more pitiful then the women victims.
Yes, there are lawyers who should be disbarred. I personally know some of them. One, in particular, tends to give up the cases part way, having earned some fees, then allowing another attorney to try his luck. Ask anyone connected to Family Court how many cases of DV get dismissed because of lack of evidence, and outright fabrication. I might not know a lot about other things, but in this case, the information I share is part of “The Little I Know”.
Please notice that I am not commenting about the withholding of the get. I am steadfast against it. However, I would never allow a get to be given if the agreement that settles the affairs of custody, support, division of assets, etc. is incomplete. Whoever holds back on that is the party responsible for delaying the get. And here it is a draw, 50-50. That is fact.
The halchachic issues notwithstanding, we are actually observing a war of bad midos, in which the warring spouses are looking to inflict as much pain and anguish on the other. Divorce is ugly. Recognize it. It has become the exception that a couple enters the divorce process looking to resolve the issues amicably. There are only two professions that benefit – the lawyers and the toanim. Dayanim would rather spend their dayanus time doing Choshen Mishpat cases – they’re less ugly, and yield considerably more income. Everyone else, including the soon to be divorced couple, lose everything. Many friends abandon them, many family, and their social positions tend to diminish. All for the few moments of sweet revenge against the other.
Men have the options of withholding the get. Child support can be litigated, and sooner or later wrestled from the father through legal channels. Women have other resources to fight their wars. They include the accusations of domestic violence, child abuse, and other shenanigans to deny the father access to the children while dragging them through expensive court battles. Men find their reputations tarnished, even destroyed by these false allegations. But those are women’s weapons.
So either side can be washed down for exposing and implementing rather despicable midos, ones which we spent our yeshiva/school days learning about in mussar lectures, and the same ones we need to address as part of our Elul/teshuvah avodah. Which spouse is on the offense or defense varies per situation. I have trouble recognizing the generalizations about evil men or evil women. There are no reliable statistics. Numbers would not help anyway. If a case involves a nasty man, the majority figure of offensive women would not matter. And vice versa.
It becomes the obligation of those authority figures who get involved, whether askanim, professionals, rabbonim, etc. to address the couple at this level. “If you want to spend inordinate amounts of time and money fighting to the finish, you may. We will profit from it. The alternative is to participate in good faith efforts to negotiate. You’ll win some things and lose some things. All that you are guaranteed to experience is the absence of revenge. That is an issue to address, and some therapy may help for that. You will gain considerable savings in the short and long term, and the children will be granted a reprieve from the turmoil of ongoing battles between the parents. This alternative sounds like WIN-WIN.”
Sam2:
1) The claims are rarely plausible. They are considered “plausible” simply because the mother makes them. The “system” is required, even if the mother is not believed, to take all precautionary steps. The facts are that even when the judges who hear these accusations consider them frivolous, they are forced to order visitations either suspended or allowed only under supervision. One of the challenges is that the mother withheld making these accusations before the divorce process began. If there was truly a risk to the children, why has she failed to protect them from this “threat”?
2) Unquestionably, the safety of anyone deserves no compromise. Erring on the side of caution is reasonable. The tough part is that there is no history of such false accusations, whether about abuse of the children, or domestic violence (where there is a huge percentage of falsehood) being prosecuted for false police reports, etc. in NYS. This is actually dangerous, because the system becomes a weapon that can be used with impunity. So the poor guy who loses his kids, job, and a fortune in legal fees over false accusations can get a response like, “Whoops, I’m sorry” from the lying spouse. That is a disaster.
By the way, the last kick of the door on the way out is common. Courts are aware of and expecting the wives to accuse their husbands of molesting the children as part of the divorce process. They have the freedom of making an accusation that can wreck the lives of the husbands, restrict their access to the children, and essentially satisfy their craving to take revenge. There are marriages in which enough pain has been suffered, so we might understand the desire for revenge, but that does not legitimize it, neither halachically or morally. Unfortunately, once an accusation has been made, the courts implement the full scale investigations, restricting visitation to either under supervision, or stopping it altogether. I know of cases where the children later complained that they were pressured by the mothers to fabricate accusations. So far, these mothers get away with this murder, and are not charged with the crime of making false reports.
Yes, lawyers have been known to allow this to happen, and many are deserving of disbarment. I have first hand knowledge of this, so I am not spouting rumors or frivolous accusations.
Divorce is painful, and can easily become ugly. Halevai we could see the process of dissolving marriages, when it chas veshalom needs to occur, proceed as an amicable process. It is possible. My view – lawyers and toanim enjoy the thrill of the good fight, and they make parnosoh from this. Why should they not encourage the viciousness and battles?
Withholding a get might be permissible as far as halacha – letter of the law – requires. But in many situations, it is simply not menchlich. There is a mitzvah of ????? ???? ?????, and this has become one of the less popular mitzvos. Knowing many cases of divorces, before, during, and after, I would chalk up statistics that are pretty even in terms of men and women being unfair about the process. Giving the get before the affairs are settled is foolish. Most batei din will not stand for it. Our media has reported on a few such cases that achieved notoriety.
A man can be ordered by beis din, and still not give a get. This has occurred many times, and the fact that such a scenario exists speak loudly and ill of the prevailing level of yir’as shomayim. Conversely, the women who make ridiculous demands, refusing to accept equitable settlements are equally as lacking in yir’as shomayim.
We witness today that organizations like ACS, which should be charged with protecting children, are exploited by divorcing parents to deny the other side access to their own children. What a shame that our systems allow for such manipulation and diversion.
I encourage other readers of this thread and commenters to keep an open mind, and refrain from generalizations about men, women, or even batei din. There is enough corruption and dishonesty for all to share hefty portions. No case can be judged by “statistics”.
I know two “mekubalim” in Brooklyn. One has spent time in jail for federal offenses including selling drugs. The other is busy looking for someone of the opposite gender to offer him services when his wife is unavailable.
The commenter about Rav Pincus is spot on. We have been guided by Gedolei Yisroel to stay away from those who practice “kabala maasis”. Their guidance is critical. There may be mekubalim around, but you will NOT find them in the Jewish telephone books, nor will they advertise their services through posters and the media (as someone in the service industry might do). They will be busy concentrating on their Avodas Hashem, with zero effort or time invested in marketing or otherwise pushing the agenda of seeking attention.
I second the motion of Rav Pincus. Try G-d. Anything that you might get in terms of advice or segulos would need to come from Him anyway. Go to the Source.
????? ????? ?? ………. ?? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ???????? ???? ??.
HKB”H does not need points to score with us. We need to recognize all He does for us and gives us. Sometimes He gives us hardships. If we have accomplished enough in our emunoh, we should realize that those things that give us momentary discomfort, even pain, are there for our benefit. We ask Hashem to grant us His chesed in a pleasant package – ???? ????? ?????.
In my experience, the bully has already succeeded in doing a lot of damage before there is any intervention. Some comments here are the equivalent (lehavdil alfei havdalos) of expecting to negotiate with a terrorist. Bullies know exactly how to respond to all these peaches and cream speeches. They shake their heads, they agree to all the admonitions, they look for ways to incriminate the victim, and they then do whatever they please. Ask any victim. The ZERO TOLERANCE idea means that strong ACTION needs to be taken. Aside from professional evaluation and intervention for the bully, there must be exposure to the class that there is bullying occurring, and that action is being taken. If that costs the rodef his/her place in the class, that may be a last resort, but one that the school is ready to take. Once safety has been regained for the class, all the lessons about midos, bein odom lachaveiro, social skills, etc. can be taught.
I find it offensive to read the generalizations about the home lives of the bullies. Neither the bully nor the victim is being abused at home – as a deduction from the bullying observed in the school setting. Kids just have certain tendencies. Blaming on parents is foolish. That does not mean that all home lives are without flaws. But school bullying does not necessarily reflect on the home. It is unfair to make this judgment.
Having a background in both mental health and education, I need to contribute my two pennies.
Some commenters are correct. Bullying will never be eliminated. But it can be addressed in a manner that will deter it, and save the victim if it does occur. There is something very sad about bullying. It is always easier for the school to deal with the victim, who is receptive, than it is with the bully who is not. Typically, the bullying is discovered when the victim finally tries to fight back. It is easy to get sucked into the position of disciplining the victim for throwing a punch. However, the faculty was oblivious to the fact that the tables had finally reversed, and that this new perpetrator is really the victim.
Firstly, teachers are entitled to a break. Leaving recess unsupervised is a breach of their responsibility. They need to address the matter to insure that kids are under constant supervision. And these teachers need to be properly trained to detect bullying. Remember that the response of the bully to being “ratted out” is likely to be intensification of the bully behavior.
Secondly, talking to the bully is close to a complete waste of time. Bullies must be handled with a strong hand, both definitive and direct. Many experts in the field consider this suspension or expulsion, doing something that exposes the bully as one to the entire class or peer group, and may even involve police action and arrest.
The effects of bullying on the victim can be profound. It is cruel to pronounce the victim as tomorrow’s abuser. That is revictimization. It is also not true.
There are several frum people who can be consulted to address bullying, whether it is the intervening in an existing case, or obtaining the continuing education and training to have a program for prevention and intervention in place. We may never eliminate every possible problem, but there is much to do that can reduce it and help us cope with it. Lastly, the families of the bullies should be mandated to enter professional treatment. They can do much to help resolve the problem, whereas their denial and resistance will only exacerbate the problem.
I’m struggling to get the gist of the comments strewn around here. The great people and leaders are capable of being a source of light and guidance to us. However, we must be fully aware of what they offer and what we need. It is utterly foolish to expect a Rosh Yeshiva, however great and expansive his Talmud knowledge is, to resolve medical problems or know how to direct a patient with a medical condition. To collect his brachos is always worthwhile, and our Chazal stated clearly, “??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????”. It does not instruct us to seek their prescriptions. Why? Because we are obligated to make our ??????? through the means of nature and the science that HKB”H has granted us. When the Gadol will also possess advanced medical training, I can consider his medical guidance an option.
Over the generations, we have witnessed situations in which the guidance offered to someone by a Gadol was clearly ??? ?????. Yes, that happened with many Gedolim of yesteryear, and even today we read stories of ????? ????? that boggle the mind. Yet, one does not have the freedom to rely on such ??? ?????, unless all other forms of ??????? have been exhausted. One may not assume that the Gadol is responding from a wellspring of ??? ?????, even if that is something we have reason to believe is possible.
The confusion over what Daas Torah means is no different from when the terminology was popularized a while back. It’s our deterioration that has us in trouble. We prefer the Gadol use some sort of magic to produce instantaneous yeshuos. We’re misusing our Gedolim by having unrealistic expectations.
I heard it’s a marketing tactic for an upcoming Chinese auction for Hatzoloh.
Yes, the junk mail is offensive, but considerably less so. I can always deposit it into the trash. I can turn off the radio, or distract myself with something else. Email is deleted with the click of the mouse.
I should have the right to determine what enters my home or business. To be distracted with marketers who interrupt my work is extremely rude. If I was meeting with you, and our meeting was disturbed by these calls, you would find it irritating and offensive. The trouble is that I do not know this is solicitation from the caller ID, and must answer in case it is important. I should be able to block marketing calls.
I hear all the defenses for the telemarketers, but I still consider the entire field of telemarketing offensive. I inform the callers that I am answering this phone in my office, I am busy, and I neither want to buy or donate anything. The persistence is beyond intrusive and annoying. It is unfair and abusive. More often than not, as soon as I recognize that this call is marketing or soliciting, I just hang up. If there is a set of moral guidelines for telemarketing, I would love to see it taught and followed. Meanwhile, I will respond with either revenge abuse or hanging up.
“Getting wasted” is a goyishe concept, and never, ever was considered a mitzvah. There is a mitzvah to drink as part of Purim simcha, to commemorate the involvement of wine in the miracles of Purim. What we observe way too often is that people want to get intoxicated (a fancy word for poisoned), and do not do so out fear and shame for stooping so low. However, Purim is exploited as an excuse, and this becomes their ticket to drunken oblivion. That is nothing to do with fulfilling a mitzvah, and it should be banned and discouraged everywhere. The Rambam was simple in noting that drunkenness and Avodas Hashem are mutually exclusive.
Whoever thinks “getting wasted” is a chumroh is tragically wrong, and is creating halacha to fit his own desires. How shameful.
There is a debate in Shas about whether Mitzvos tzrichos kavanah. Regardless, if one does the mitzvah whie having express intentions for another purpose, it is a serious issue.
Here’s the challenge. Especially these days, many people look to escape the realities of life, and this may be far more prevalent than we have believed. If the drinking (within halachic limits, of course) is lishmoh, then one would not be losing himself, barfing on someone’s lawn, getting behind a steering wheel, walking out in traffic, etc. If, however, Purim is just the excuse to “let go”, then we have a major problem at hand. It is not connected to any mitzvah, and is undoubtedly nothing more than a pure and disgusting aveiroh.
There is a greater fear. It was heard at other Asifos, and it was attacked at the internet Asifa in BP last year. If anyone does not comply with the expected rules of tzniyus, their children will be expelled from yeshivos and frum girls schools. Now that will fix things!
The freedom with which kids are put into the streets, the welcoming arms of the yetzer horoh, is astonishing! Yet, many, many yeshivos and schools have specifics in their admission criteria about the levels of adherence to “standards” for the parents. I have only an inkling of understanding how this may be relevant, but for the most part, it is senseless. If we run our chinuch system to be “rejecting”, what on Earth do we expect from HKB”H when He deals with us Midoh Kineged Midoh?
It is a sad state of affairs that many of us have no clue what we say in tefiloh, what it means, where is the source for it, and why it is established as part of tefiloh. There is barely a shadow of this which is taught in girls schools as “Beiur Tefiloh”. In boys yeshivos, virtually nothing. This leaves us with the challenge of spending about 45 minutes for the average daily Shacharis in shul babbling senseless syllables, to have fulfilled the requirement of Shacharis, so that we can move on to whatever is next. That is a major embarrassment, since every tefiloh is packed with a virtual gold mine of beauty, opportunity to connect to HKB”H, and to rejuvenate the spirit within each of us.
I would propose that every yeshivah have a core curriculum that includes learning siddur in a meaningful way. We have many seforim on tefiloh. There are also quite a few books in English that help us to understand tefiloh, and make it a meaningful experience. For those past yeshiva schedules, get a sefer, and begin to discover the world of tefiloh. Aside from learning Torah and the rest of the mitzvos, it is a special invitation that Hashem gives us to speak to him three times a day. Why miss such a chance?
Probably will wear a plain paper bag (remember them?) with eye holes. This way, I can continue to maintain my anonymity.
I consider myself a maamin in hashgocho, so I don’t think my comment reflects any lacking in that.
What puzzles me most is the selectivity of seminaries and the basis on which they reject applicants. I believe that much of this process is unrelated to helping girls maximize their potential, and is far more geared to having a class of girls that are easier for the hanhala to manage. It is, to a painful degree, based on the image and reputation of the seminary, and, of course, on the money that will arrive in a timely fashion. How badly is the seminary education needed altogether? Does it prepare young women to be better homemakers, or to become earners (to support the “kollel” lifestyle) at a level beyond teaching in girls schools?
Aside from pushing our young girls into a matzav of competitiveness and the risk of rejection and disappointments, what else is the mission of the seminaries?
I am neither minimizing the need for assistance, nor do I in any way mock the mitzvah of tzedokoh. I am among many who is appalled at the abuse of one of our greatest mitzvos – the collecting of tzedokoh – that has superseded the main activioty in most every shul in the heavy concentrations of frum population. Every schnorrer endows himself with the privilege of disturbing mispallelim, regardless of where in davening they are at, with requests for tzedokoh. In reality, the poskim address this issue, and the unanimous piskei denim are that it is ossur to disturb someone in the middle of tefilo or kriyas haTorah. We have now seen the CR become a place for solicitation of tzedokoh. Again, without minimizing the mitzvah or the unfortunate situation , I question whether this is the place for this.
HYPERLEXIA.
Overpunctuationitis is a condition that, like its lettered counterpart – hyperlexia (overly good spelling, frequently corrects others’ spelling mistakes) is easily treatable.
The recommended intervention is to move away from the computer and email, and take up texting (especially on the old flip phones that lack a keyboard). One rapidly sheds the extreme nuisance of correct spelling and punctuation. This treatment has a fantastic record of success. Both of the above conditions resolve completely after just a few days of introducing the treatment program.
Physicians are generally exempt from this, as they simply scribble on a prescription pad, need no punctuation or spelling, and are way too busy dealing with the bludgeoning responsibility of insurance friendly documentation to text, email, or blog. No physician was ever taught how to spell stethoscope, electroencephalograph (only its acronym EEG), or countless other long medical terms.
rebyidd23:
Someone needs to give you your space(s).
Rebyidd23:
What is acceptable or good about bad advice? If you would only know how many divorces are caused by that advice, you might think again. I am all in favor of much of the other activity. But there are certain questions that when seeking advice should be addressed to professionals. Otherwise, peer advice can emanate from sources other than true knowledge of the situation. I speak of this from first hand experience of seeing several women badly misguided through this website. Chizuk is one thing. Guidance is something else.
I am all for new websites that offer support, wisdom from the experienced, and chizuk. However, imamother.com has countless threads where “professional” advice is dispensed from peers who lack training, and is regularly followed by women experiencing a wide range of issues. This is most destructive, and cannot be eliminated because of the anonymity as well as free speech. If any other website picks up on that travesty, I wish it failure.
The immaturity that goes into commenting about an area where one lacks study and training!
There are several types of depression. Several of these have a biological basis to the disease. There could be hormonal aspects to it, and post-partum psychiatric illnesses are not rare. Yes, men can have hormonally related problems, too. While use of medication for biological based depression is usually the preference, the science is not exact. Some people respond to one medication and not another. Others are refractory to medication use altogether, and not enough is known to treat some complicated cases. Psychotherapy (the entire realm of it) is usually helpful. It rarely substitutes for medication, and use of both is often warranted. All of this can be verified by any trained mental health professional.
PBA’s comment about women of child bearing age experiencing as much depression as post-partum women is simply baloney. There is a wealth of research that indicates otherwise. Perhaps he would like that to be true, but it simply is not the fact.
It is also erroneous to call CBT a “quick fix”. I will spare the readers the shiur on that. When to use it, where it is indicated, just what role it should play in the treatment of any particular individual, ask someone with ample training in the field, not commenters on the internet.
PBA:
Come now. If the subject was a particular “novel” approach in surgery, a new form of chiropractic manipulation, or a newly developed medication, would you make the same broad brush statements? I would hope not. To argue that one must use CBT for everything, or even that it is the only method to treat specific conditions would be foolish. Knowing many therapists from the full spectrum of mental health professionals, I have yet to meet anyone that believes that one single approach is the only one of choice. When any of us commenters here were arguing against your dismissal of CBT as “narishkeit”, some of us countered your pronouncement as rubbish. But, sorry to bust your bubble, no one reputable considers it the only method around. It has a great track record, and many therapists use elements of it in much or all of their work. Neither extreme is rational. And I repeat my position – I will ask professionals before looking to anonymous internet sites or bloggers for advice.
Aside from a few sarcastic comments here, I am surprised that some people are just missing it.
1) The myth of the “learning boy” needs to be debunked forever. It does not exist in the universal sense that it is bantered about by yeshivos or by girls schools. For someone who is material for full time learning, kollel is great. Whatever can be done to support that, whether by wife working, family support, or community support – it is a good investment. For others, a brief period of kollel life is more than enough. Young men must be addressing their need to be earners from their mid teens, and their roshei yeshivos need to prepare them to make ????? ???? ????? a major goal in life.
2) The Torah community needs to extend appreciation and recognition to the working class. If any elementary school is audacious enough to close the admission to their school to children whose fathers work (despite maintaining regular shiurim), and the leadership gives any credence to this, well, shame on them. The child of the honest, working, Torahdige parent is worthy in Hashem’s eyes as one of His children. It is disgraceful to consider this child anything less than that. The recognition of the Torah committed baal habuss should not be limited to those capable of donating large monies to yeshivos.
3) Our roshei yeshivos have placed themselves (not universal, but close) on pedestals where it has become beneath them to know every talmid, with their respective liabilities and assets. Thus, a talmid might not be long term learning material, and would serve himself and the community better by entering a career, but will never receive such guidance because it is politically unpopular. I’m sorry, but this cannot be branded as Ratzon Hashem.
4) We are also deluded that our kollel systems work and are worthy of the aspirations of those looking forward to marriage and establishing homes. There is greater Kol Torah on Planet Earth than anytime in recent history, perhaps all of history. But are the yungerleit there appropriately disconnected from distraction and fully invested in their learning? Or are the kollelim just repositories for yungerleit who are hesitant or apprehensive about working? Is there a sense of entitlement, “es kumt mir”?
When we can eliminate the myths of the “system”, maybe we will have youth ready to mature into adult bnei Torah who will be ovdei Hashem at whatever level is most fitting for them. Maybe we can trash the “one size fits all” delusion of “kollel for everybody”.