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If a couple has a harmonious relationship, this is a hurdle that can be overcome. Problems are resolvable. It is critical to take care to not permit such issues to become a divisive wedge between a husband and wife. Some ideas were suggested in earlier comments, and I can think of others. Get creative. Ask a Rov, not just for a psak, but how to settle the issue.
It is recorded from quite a few gedolim and tzaddikim of earlier generations, including both chassidishe and litvishe persuasions, that one can justify increasing chumros relevant to Pesach, but not to accept kulos. However, one must be able to distinguish between a halacha, a halacha based chumro, and a minhag. The differences, especially as would pertain to a couple with differences in practice are significant. A good Rov would know the differences.
AYLOR (Ask Your Local Orthodox Rabbi)
These days, even parents have little say in their kids education.
One element seems to have eluded the comments on this post. Before asking about the jobs out there, the real first question should be about the individual. What sets of skills and potential exist? Next question should be what fields does this individual like? Sforim refer to the parnosoh that is declared on Rosh Hashana as dependent on the individual being a recipient. It is completely conceivable that someone was given an allotment on Rosh Hashana but never received it. Reasons – there were enough aveiros to impede the flow of shefa from HKB”H, the absence of hishtadlus, etc. The Torah is replete with havtochos that required a special step of a “bris” or a “shevu’ah” in order that they become fulfilled (see Ramban on bris bein habesorim). Just because someone merits a generous kitzvah of parnosoh does not guarantee that it occurs. All we are certain of is that the individual will not receive what was not set into place on Rosh Hashana.
We need to begin the job seeking process by looking for something that is relevant to the individual. One would not look to give a cripple a job loading trucks or playing basketball. Granted, sometimes, someone is stuck settling for something that is far from first choice. But that is where to begin the process.
It is legendary that our Torah world guides anyone that knows how to sit to stay in kollel, with the hopes of bitachon that some miracle will occur and grant the untrained and unskilled with positions that earn handsome wages. Sorry, but such thinking is not more than pure fantasy. Lotteries have better odds. It is strongly based on hishtadlus, but this requires saichel to direct the job seeker to careers that make sense for him.
Avi K:
I am keenly aware of that posuk. It has virtually nothing to do with concern for how others think of you. It is obviously about making good on one’s responsibility to Hashem and to others. The obsession for what others think is not a part of Avodas Hashem. In most cases, it is a detraction.
Try again.
There is a completely different angle that is rarely addressed in these discussions. Purim is a extremely precious Yom Tov for which the rejoicing and celebrating is an integral part of the mitzvah. However, it seems to be taken by many to fulfill a quite different role.
The observation that is repeated every year is that Purim is accepted as a single day when all restrictions and limitations are suspended. One is restricted from drinking and getting intoxicated all year. So, following this logic, Purim is a time to let go. Well, I’m afraid that this is antithetical to Purim. It is a time to be aware of the level of kedusha which we can attain during golus, when we can be mekabel Torah at a level that we could not achieve at Har Sinai. Every Yom Tov has a mitzvah to celebrate, but the celebration is secondary to the other aspects of the Yom Tov. Here, it is center stage. We even make our bodies celebrate. But it is NOT about frivolity, drunkenness, losing one’s ability to remain an oveid Hashem. The Poskim that talk about ad delo yoda being fulfilled with sleep, do not say that the sleep is the mitzvah. The mitzvah is drinking to the level of sleeping, the shiur of how much drinking constitutes the mitzvah. Boundaries exist on Purim, and turning it into the equivalent of seudas Achashveirosh is opposite of what Purim stands for.
I wonder how to refer to someone who davens S”E with his concentration on how others are davening. If there is a requirement to daven with kavana, it certainly does not include what others are up to. I cannot gauge my S”E to be either longer or shorter than someone else. My tefila is a very personal experience, and I try to take it seriously. I shouldn’t have a care in the world on others’ perceptions. If I do take longer, my thoughts should not be on how others perceive it. The exception would be if my longer davening impacts on others or on the tzibbur. That’s where halachos bring the subject of gaavah into the picture.
Health:
I was addressing issues related to the entry into marriage. Not the issues that occur within it, and when others interfere when the going gets rough. Your point is valid, but it was not overlooked. It was just outside the scope of my comment.
You are correct that the interference factor is severe. It might meet the criteria for shmiras halashon violations, and might sometimes not. Try this example. A couple is married, with the most wonderful information having been traded about the two prospects. Little known, was that the young man had been in psychiatric treatment for 2 years, was taking medication for a rather serious problem, and that this is a condition that is not curable, but treatable with meds to reduce symptoms. When the young bride caught her husband taking a pill, he told her it was a vitamin. It was many months later when the truth was revealed. All the while, he was “going to kollel”, where his father was his chavrusa, as he was not material for anyone else. No lashon horah, no rechilus, no motzi shem rah. Just lies that even the Chofetz Chaim instructs not to say.
I am sure there are many perspectives about divorce. A usual, I wish to add my two cents.
Often times, we address the news of a divorce, or an impending one, with the thought that the shidduch was a mistake. It is assumed that the dissolution of the marriage indicates it was never a match. I would not argue that this is never true. I am sure this is sometimes the case. More often, I believe, the shidduch is bashert, was proclaimed by a bas kol, and once there are children, one must believe that HKB”H wanted these children to be born of these two parents. So the hindsight about the shidduch is more often unfounded.
A bigger issue is that many are poorly prepared to marry and manage the challenges built into the structure that marriage is. There’s enough blame to spread around, between societal and cultural values, parental role models, the serious deficiencies in chosson and kallah preparation, the lack of education on fundamental interpersonal midos in yeshivos, schools, and seminaries, the trend to glorify the lifestyles founded on dependency, etc. Many marriages start off with two immature kids, who might be wonderful people, but cannot tolerate the stresses of living with another person as marriage requires. So many divorces are failures, many doomed from the start, many with the symptoms appearing later when the pressure increases.
When I read comments like “There is a divorce crisis caused by too many people getting into a relationships that they should never gotten into”, I wonder. Is it the individual that should not have been the chosen one, or that there was a complete lack of preparedness for any relationship? I postulate that the latter is true more often than the former. No research, no empirical data, just observation and belief.
The little I know, I owe to my ignorance.
As an askan involved in both problem marriages and gittin, I find many of the comments here disturbing in that generalization is rampant, irresponsible, and ultimately useless. There is a bigger problem here. There are statistics being quoted, and most commenters seem to have zero grasp in interpreting them. I accept the statement from Rav Shteinman shlit”a about a vast majority of marriages being reparable. But this does not translate into a case where there should not be a get. Let’s explain. There is a famous quote about the bumblebee that should not be able to fly if one examines the involved aerodynamics. However, the bumblebee has not studied the science of aerodynamics, and flies anyway.
There are almost always points along the way at which a couple can still fix things. If they fail to do that, the option of a get becomes necessary. If we compare apples and oranges, we will never get it right. So may of the gittin are critically needed, and anyone in their right mind would see that, including Rav Shteinman shlit”a. There were junctures earlier that should have led to treatment, therapy, intervention, counseling, etc.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, marriages are entered with limited preparation, and halachos, while essential, only constitute a small portion of the needed readiness to marry.
Divorce exists because it is an industry, just like many other things. There are several people who actually profit from it. The batei din that take money often litigate much of it, hence profit. Toanim – all profit. Lawyers, more profit. And the side that has the upper hand might actually make some money off the deal. None of this means that the action involves honesty or moral values. But several people have parnosoh from divorce. I did not even list therapists, counselors, and mediators, though these generally have a better moral standing than the others listed above.
I see a common practice of posting a comment that diverts the exact focus of the OP. While I generally do not like this, I will follow the lead.
The frum community has more forms of tzedokoh than can be imagined. Peruse the gemach list in the frum phone directories. It is staggering. there are many other versions of charity that boggle the mind. There is one that I have yet to encounter (though I have heard it proposed several times).
A tuition fund. Yes, people donate funds to assist parents in paying tuition costs. These funds might be channeled away from the yeshivos fund raising efforts, but the money ends up going to support the yeshivos. Meanwhile, some parents will not have to face the threat of not allowing children entry to school.
The picture I have of this is that it is based purely on hardship. I cannot rate the forms of hardship, but it would include single mothers, parents who are unemployed or lost jobs, those with medical expenses that drain them, and even those who work but are underearning. Disqualifiers can include taking trips for vacations to E”Y or elsewhere, having luxury cars, making lavish simchos, etc., all indicators of hardship just being priorities that are unfair to the chiyuv to provide chinuch to one’s children.
Obviously, the panel of evaluators would be broad and inquisitive. I envision such a fund holding huge fund raising events, ones that rival some of the greatest ones in our community. The tuition burden is so overwhelming to so many, and it would be just and right to create a mechanism to ease such pain.
One fear – yeshivos won’t like it.
Is anyone aware of the halachos regarding the use of supplements? I have seen (though not studied) a few, and it is questioned whether the entire field of supplements and vitamins is even muttar according to halacha. I assume that there is substantial question regarding the effectiveness, with a minimum of reliable scientific study available. I also suspect that there is a basis to question because there is minimal to no quality control, to insure that the package label is accurate. Taking medications (supplements are considered medications, though available without prescription) that are not reliable might present a halacha problem.
If someone can share a reference or two to tshuvos on this, I can review them and speak from something better than very vague memory and assumption.
LF:
I have nothing against pictures. I have them. Not too handy with the camera, but I’ve taken some, too. My problem is that the situation got completely out of hand, and that we have sunk to where photos are the substitute for emulation, role models, and true spiritual growth. Washing hands is a requirement, and this mitzvah has tremendous merit. When someone spends an inordinate amount of time in hand washing, we may be dealing with an OCD issue. There are portraits in my home of several tzaddikim. But there is no preoccupation with them, as is found all too often in today’s world. That’s why the picture magazines sell (with a minimum of advertising). I will challenge that unless one is specifically seeking a message from each time they gaze at a photo, the impact will not be meaningful. And I do agree that pictures of tzaddikim are far better than the nonsense alternatives. And I do thank you for your interior decorating suggestion.
Mashiach Agent must have a great fantasy life, or lives an unusually spiritual life. Gedolim pictures are not a bad thing. Certainly beats photos of sports and Hollywood celebrities. But let’s get real, and let’s address the average person. The pictures of gedolim are simply objects of interest, and are entertaining. They are rarely statements about Yiras Shomayim, and they do not result in people sharing with each other about the great midos and dveikus to emulate.
The problem is that we have deteriorated to a fixation with photographs of virtually any event. The pages of YWN, as well as other sites and most print media, are full of galleries and albums of every event, every simcha, and person of “interest”. The oilem is obsessed with these, and constantly seek more. The picture magazines sell well, and testify to nothing except what color bekeshes are worn by the rebbes, who visited whom, and who danced together at a simcha. These publications serve as great babysitters for children, but provide the adults with little to anything beyond a moment of entertainment. That’s being honest. Again, unquestionably better than goyishe celebrities, but still nothing beyond entertainment.
I find the dialogues here rather amusing. Most of the points of compare and contrast, beginning with the OP, are based on sheer generalization. In one of Dr. Abraham Twerski’s books, he quips about how the Ten Commandments stopped at 10, but that #11 would have been, “Thou shalt not generalize”. There are good marriages, and there are bad marriages. The ingredients that render them either extreme are not specific to any one culture, background, persuasion, or “team”. Litvish versus Chassidish has zero bearing on the matter, and knowing which direction the individual parties and their families come from has no predictive value in understanding the lasting power of a marriage. There are no numbers to prove this, but having spoken to many therapists, dayanim, toanim, and other rabbonim, I have yet to encounter anyone that can point a finger.
The elements in successful marriage have been described in many books and publications. We might bicker about some of the details and advance differing opinions. We might also fall into the traps of making generalizations that fail to indicate much intellect. We have all heard the lines about bad marriages are all about money, in-laws, intimacy, and the internet. These are not informative either. Each couple will develop its own norms and patterns, and the input from their families or origin, plus other exposure to role models of married life will have the greatest impact. The role of chosson and kallah teachers cannot be minimized, though many complain that these sources of guidance are awfully inadequate.
The main influences on the happiness and success of marriage include a hefty helping of midos tovos, a meaningful role of Ahavas Hashem and Yiras Hashem, and the desire to “make it work”. None of these factors are distinguished by “Litvish” or “Chassidish”.
The Shidduch system has its merits, and people should follow their madrichim in determining what that should be. Dating this way or that, beshows, numbers of dates, etc. have little to no ultimate bearing on the outcome of the marriage. Again, survey the professionals and rabbonim who are involved. I did. These generalizations are fundamentally worthless. Nice try, nice discussion, but it fails to contribute useful knowledge.
Aside from recommending Mesila, an organization that is dedicated to help families budget, and perhaps individuals who might do a similar thing, I would have no idea how else to help the OP bring a better match between his income and expenses.
But there is a bigger question, raised in several of the comments. Nearly every single yeshiva I know of engages in fund raising. Yeshivos are not created equal, and their fund raising activities vary. So are the successes of these ventures, with some doing very well and insuring their bank accounts are adequately filled. And without opinions about whether there are people involved who might skim from the top, I am still inclined to see all yeshivos as non-profit organizations.
This may divert the thread to another angle, or may trigger another post. But I am concerned with the desperation with which the yeshiva administrations squeeze and pressure parents. I am alarmed by the tendency to refuse the kids entry to the school building when the family hits on hard times and is late with tuition payments. No, I do look favorably on the vacations, the fancy cars, and similar luxuries being given priority over schar limud. Certainly not. And I recognize the schools’ needs for money. But to disallow kids to come to class because of budgetary pressure? Kids being used as leverage? Something is very wrong.
postSem:
I agree completely. There are ways to deal with this subject without being offensive, even to the “frummest”. It is a delicate subject to discuss with an audience of a classroom. Actually, there is growing pressure to begin the process of preparation for marriage in yeshivos and schools, to focus on the midos needed to manage a relationship. There are many subjects that can be safely addressed, such as communication, consideration for another, the merging of families with different values/patterns/minhagim, etc. If you are among those who are sitting back expecting yeshivos and schools to designate one of their faculty to create a curriculum and to implement it, I hope you are not holding your breath. But there is outside pressure, and I wish it much success.
Meanwhile, the batei din, toanim, and matrimonial lawyers are all very busy.
The suggestions about material above are all good and needed. Here is one that was not mentioned, and may be as important as the others, if not more. There needs to be some spiritual clarity about who the other one is. IF the boy was put into the shidduch market as a learning boy, there will be an expectation (a reasonable one) that he also make it to minyanim on time, and not be busy with extremes of gashmiyus, technology, etc. If he is more “with it” and this violates the expectations the kallah had, the trouble has where to start really early. If the girl was put on the market as a really ruchniyusdige girl, and she is not, another trouble spot.
Basically, the masquerades that are employed to pull off shidduchim are potentially very destructive.
Couples need to have an approach to marriage that is much deeper than friendship. A shocking percentage of madrichim spend no time on this subject. Love should be a major discussion, not a passing mention. Expressing affection should also be addressed directly and openly. Remember, we have few role models on such matters (if any).
Joseph & Neut:
There is one sliver of truth to your agreed upon point. I concur that there is no organized effort to protect molesters, whoever and wherever they are. That idea is launched and reinforced by the “fanatics” who claim falsely to be protecting children. Their extremism is only overshadowed by their sin’as Yisroel. We should know better by now.
The reality is that people tend to react to horrible news with open and frank denial. It is not uncommon at all that someone would respond to the news of a death by saying, “No, it can’t be.” That individual, sooner or later, needs to face the truth, and the dead person is not returning to life, until techiyas hameisim. Being notified that someone in a position of authority and power, particularly someone of the clergy (including positions in chinuch) is certainly shocking. One would wish to not believe the bearer of these tidings. In contrast to death, where one can personally witness the corpse, there is only the report of the event, and denying that is all too easy.
In the instances that get the bad press, the others in power wish to deny the truth of the report. Not because it is not true, but because they don’t want it to be true. This occurs individually in so many cases.
I agree with you both that the conspiracy theory is foolish and irresponsible, and I condemn those who believe it and push it. But the coverups occur, and they are common. I do hold those participating in a coverup responsible.
Have we noticed that so many of us are makpid on so many things, zman krias shema and tefilo, large shiurim for tzitzis, reviis for kiddush and havdoloh, zmanim for ending Shabbos, etc. Try Cholov Yisroel, Pas Yisroel, Yoshon, and countless other kashrus stringencies. Such a list of chumros can go on and on. Why is it that we, such high level machmirim in halacha, need any filter on the internet? Wouldn’t we expect to be risk free regarding such serious violations as getting into schmutz?
It is apparent that the issue is with the privacy that is perceived in internet use. No one watching. What about if all internet activity is under scrutiny, not by the NSA or some other government body (it already is), but by a chaver, a rov, even a therapist? The filter should always monitor, not just block. People can find ingenious ways around a blockade. But the risk of embarrassment is a far greater motivator. Rabbi AJ Twerski addressed this in an op-ed some time ago. He cried that the missing factor is Yir’as Hashem. Good point. The chumrah of the month club has no claim to it. Keeping mitzvos does not create Yir’as Hashem. Rather the midoh of Yir’as Hashem brings one to keep the mitzvos. We should not confuse the precursor with the result.
As a society, we have become obsessed with image. We always need to “look good”. This comes at the extremely high cost of building up our characters, to where our neshamos are true and holy, through and through. Just peek at the photos that are spread of every Rosh Yeshiva, Chassidishe Rebbe, etc., performing their functions of their jobs, participating at simchos and other events, etc. When when was the last time that viewing such pictures brought someone to a higher level of Yir’as Hashem or Ahavas Hashem? If we can insure that others think highly of us, then the image obsession has been satisfied, and we are free to privately satisfy our other desires and gratifications. Yes, we need filters. But is that enough to insure that our Avodas Hashem is that which HKB”H demands of us?
In my day, we saw children walking around with a bottle in their hands. That was replaced by a liquid free pacifier, so the kid was not even being hydrated. We have now come full circle. The average adult is walking around with a bottle.
If the parent or rebbe/teacher knows the answer, their responsibility is to provide it. We all learn this on Pesach. If they don’t know the answer, then there is no reason to ostracize the kid that doesn’t know. This issue is tightly connected to school/yeshiva expulsions, and this is truly disgraceful.
This is a tossup. Carter was voted out after 4 years, because we still had a political system that had some function left to it. Yet, Carter failed to get the message to return to peanut farming. He undertook to stay involved in politics. Unfortunately for every American, and for every Jew, he allowed his rabid hate for Jews to emerge, and he exploited his status to push that agenda, as if it had legitimacy. Many now pray that he will go away, since all he stands for today is hate.
Obama is still here, having been pushed into office for a second four year term. The second is not an improvement on the first. The political system failed here, and miserably so. He was never qualified for public office, and his experience has taught him nothing. He continues to baffle those of us who function on intellect, with conflicting statements, outright lies, and coverups. His foreign policy is catastrophic, his impact on the economy tragic, his reviving of racism, and his exercise of morals in severe deficit. Nothing he has done speaks well for him, and the disgrace which he will have as his historical identity will be extreme. No, I don’t hate him. But there is not a single activity of his that gets anything but my opposition. The undoing of the damage will require several 2-term Republican presidents.
Who is worse? Can’t tell yet. If the media and public get fooled by this idiot after he leaves office, the damage might continue.
The mitzvah of tochacha is contingent on the result. This is clearly stated in Mesilas Yeshorim Perek 20, and it appears in the Rambam also (don’t know the citation). The MY states clearly that if the result will backfire, the mitzvah is to say nothing. This is another area where someone might look to be machmir-meikil simultaneously.
Food for thought: Eliyahu Hanavi dealt with a situation in which he gave tochacha lavishly, and he was chased and hounded by Izevel trying to kill him. He ran away, and ended up on Har Chorev (aka Har Sinai), where he hid in a cave. HKB”H appeared to him and showed him massive fire and booming thunderous sounds. The message was, “Lo bo’aish Hashem, Lo bora’ash Hashem” After that, there was a “kol demomoh dakoh”, a whispering tone, containing the presence of Hashem. Nice message. Each time, Eliyahu Hanavi continued his complaint to rationalize his tochacha and the dire consequence it caused. The next statement by HKB”H was that Eliyahu return to Eretz Yisroel, and choose his successor, Elisha. The leadership, that ended up in Eliyahu becoming a kano’i, using the tool of tochacha, was inconsistent with his role as a leader.
There are many issues that comprise the formula of tochacha. Some can give it, others not. Some can receive it, others not. How, when, and where to give it are also factors. If we spent as much time on this subject, relevant to everyone daily, as we do on the halachos of other matters, we might have more to be proud of in the midos department.
In reality, most people come to shul in order to daven. Once they get there and see other people, their social goals emerge, and they take precedence. The talking in shul problem can be addressed in various ways. The “Stop Talking in Shul” project, which has major support from the media is one way. While I support it, I also recognize its limitations.
There is another direction, and I would hope it can be successfully implemented and successful. The concept, not exactly new, is to learn to appreciate tefilo. B”H there is a wealth of resources to assist in this. There are siddurim with translations in Yiddish, English, and many other languages. There are hundreds of meforshim, and there are also many seforim that engage in the subject of tefilo in ways that are not just academically exciting, but speak to one’s emotion. If we appreciated the gift of tefilo, we would more likely pass up the social benefits of the shul to prioritize davening.
For too many, tefilo is a perfunctory exercise that one needs to fulfill (i.e., get it out of the way) in order to move onto the next activity of the day. Such an attitude gives tefilo little meaning, and pushes it way down the list of priorities. It also removes the significance it should have for us all – a golden opportunity to speak to HKB”H.
People ask, don’t goyim have the ability to daven. I saw a sefer that addresses that. A Yid can daven anywhere. Goyim need to bring a korbon to the Bais Hamikdosh (ki baisi bais tefilo yiokorei lechol ho’amim). Thus, the shul is a special gift, that highlights the unique relationship HKB”H has with Klal Yisroel. There is much to appreciate.
It is common to replace the names in stories. This is sometimes due to inaccurate memories. It also happens sometimes when a chassidishe maaseh is being used by the yeshivishe oilem, and choose to use a character from the non-chassidishe communities. This story is told as occurring by Reb Laizer Dzikover, son of Reb Naftoli of Ropschitz. Minor details are different.
Profound101 commented on the matter of someone pursuing college education for personal fulfillment, in contrast to the motive to earn large income. I wish to add another element – something I believe is much more relevant and in the direction of fulfilling Ratzon Hashem. Maybe some people need to get that college education because Klal Yisroel needs them. These people possess the capabilities and skills that, if educated properly, can be the doctors, lawyers, and other professionals that Klal Yisroel needs. Maybe it is not about their personal fulfillment, but for the benefit of the Klal.
I personally know several very frum individuals, whose Yir’as Shomayim is not questioned, who have advanced college degrees, and serve the Klal – on whom the phrase ?????? ????? ????? ?????? is appropriate. Is there a reason why to keep these individuals away from college? Or are we just making pronouncements about this subject because they are politically popular? How many of these who which to make college education ossur know anything about the college experience firsthand?
T2BG:
It’s my humility.
In reality, whatever it is that we do know is truly little. Think about it. That is actually humbling.
One of the critical problems is that young people enter marriage with zero preparation. Purchasing towels and dishes, a wardrobe, and even learning the relevant halachos of taharas hamishpocho are completely inadequate preparation for the totality of marriage, as much as each of these ingredients is needed.
Among the attitudes that render marriage less than a permanent establishment are the following:
* Since marriage can be terminated with divorce (get), then it need not be seen as a permanent lifelong enterprise. If the going gets rough, just end it and move on. Unfortunately, a spouse is considered as disposable as a used tissue.
* It must look good in the pictures. We have sunk to the place where the image and appearance is prioritized over the emotional and spiritual aspects of the relationship. Who are the mechutanim, what will people say, does it “pass”? Such questions are likely to be asked, even if not verbally.
* “Es kumt mir”. Everyone deserves comforts and conveniences. What if the particular “needs” are not in common or compatible with the spouse?
* We all marvel at the conveniences of technology. Why, if so many things are done faster and more efficiently, do we have less time for our family and loved ones? Have these advances made lives easier or harder? There is this cartoon about a couple lying in their beds texting good night to each other. Now that has got to be a good marriage – they’re texting to each other!
* Normalization of what was once taboo. Interacting with others, particularly of opposite gender, has achieved a status of acceptability which was heretofore considered off limits. There are all sorts of excuses for cutting corners – it’s only digital in text, social networks, etc., not physical contact. These connections outside the marriage threaten the uniqueness of the emotional relationship. It is said that the yetzer horah has another name, “Heintige Tzeiten”.
* There are toanim and attorneys that earn quite substantial incomes from representing people going through divorce. They encourage the fights and battles. Mediating a settlement would risk having to sacrifice too much. besides, divorce involves anger, revenge, and hate. Why not fight? It will occupy much of the day until the process is over, and then some.
* The myths about the “dangers” of therapy abound. They are found on all the frum websites. The claim is that consultation with rabbonim leads to reconciliation, while therapists direct their clients to divorce. That is a blatant falsehood. What is tragic is that couples avoid professional help until there is an accumulation of “bad blood”, which is much harder to resolve.
* As parents, have we provided an adequate role model of marriage for our children to emulate? Do they have other role models of how to treat a spouse? Are newlyweds limited to the didactic “shmooze” and perhaps a few good Judaica books on the subject, or is there something more useful to serve as a life guide through the new world of married life?
* As preparation for marriage, have the two kids been trained how to argue or disagree without fighting? It is primitive to believe this will not happen. Some problem solving skills might be in order, and can even be taught in high school, and need not spell out this as a marriage skill.
There’s this cartoon of two chickens by a nest with eggs. They are talking.
Caption: “What I really want to know is, ‘Which came first – hardware or software?'”
🙂
????
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=52116&pgnum=1
The other sforim are not on Hebrewbooks. Maybe it is found elsewhere. Some might be in sforim stores.
P.S. Check out the haskamos and the clear statements from recognized poskim and Gedolei Yisroel.
I will only provide a few references, and let readers check them out. Participating in arguments on this subject is futile. Those who care don’t need the arguments. Those who don’t won’t listen. So, here are some places to check out.
??? ???? – ???? – ???? ?”? ??? ????? ?????? – ??????? ???”?
????? ????? – ??”? ????????? ???”?
??? ??? ??? – ??????? ??”?
???? ??? ????? – ??? ??? – ??? ??? ?????
This is just a small sample of references. Addiction is serious. Does withdrawal constitute illness or pikuach nefesh? Ask your LOR.
The discussion about assisting someone to commit an issur is a major issue.
MHY:
You may question the veracity of my comment. I happen to have verified it with a few sources who were close to Rav Yaakov ZT”L. To label it a despicable lie, and then to, more accurately, state that you don’t believe it – leaves you comment self-contradictory. You are free to not believe. But until you verify it as false, you should not label it a “despicable lie”.
A few more.
Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L came from Lubavitcher chasidim. Check with the family.
Rav Ruderman ZT”L came from Lubavitcher chasidim. He told me this personally, noting that he carries a Tanya in his talis bag.
Rav Yaakov Weinberg ZT”L of Baltimore is a scion of the family of the Slonimer Rebbeim.
Someone recently reported a comment from Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L. He was asked why the dynasties of Chassidim, the talmidim of the Baal Shem Tov, and their talmidim still have individuals who are leaders in Klal Yisroel, talmidei chachomim and ovdei Hashem, but that the talmidim of the Vilna Gaon ZT”L do not have anything comparable. Rav Yaakov responded that those talmidim of the Gaon all affixed their signatures to the cheirem against chassidim. The notable exception was Rav Chaim of Volozhin, who is the patriarch of the great Soloveichik family.
Many of the renowned litvishe roshei yeshivos come from chassidishe backgrounds.
I am appalled at the azus of some people that claim that Rav Moshe ZT”L was mattir smoking tobacco. Chas veshalom! The question posed, relevant to the extent of scientific knowledge at the time, was whether giving a match to someone to light up was considered ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????. He felt that the evidence to go that far was not there (in approximately 1962). But he clearly stated that those not smoking should not begin, and those who already were smokers should stop. A link to the tshuva above should help identify what Rav Moshe really said. I also heard from others who quoted Rav Moshe as having stated (verbally, not known if in writing) that smoking was clearly assur.
There is a sefer bearing a large number of haskamos of well known, universally recognized Gedolei Hador in which the subject is discussed in full length, referenced with quotes from poskim (not anonymous commenters like me). ???? ??? ????? – ?????? ??????. There was a prior sefer that addressed this: ??? ??? ??? – ??’ ?? ?????? bearing haskomos from Rav Shteinman ????”? and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ZT”L. It contains tshuvos from a wide range of Poskei Hador. There are countless other references, but the comment feature here would be overwhelmed by a catalogue of all these references. Just try the above two. Then we’ll deal with smoke by a substance undeniably far more serious that tobacco.
As for medicinal marijuana, and the interest of having a hechsher available, there is a simple comment. Medicines all involve some form of toxicity, making them effective at “killing the disease”. It becomes a highly professional judgment call if the negative aspect of the medicine is worse than the potential benefit or vice versa. It would be wise to view all medications as a subject requiring a balance between the benefits versus the risks. Same goes for marijauna. Taking it casually is not different from ingesting a medication used for chemotherapy for cancer just for fun. Stupid, dangerous, and against halacha.
Actually, much needs to be added to the question of the title to have a chance of responding with any rationality. There are several variables.
There are parents who are plainly evil, mean and abusive to their children. These may not deserve respect, but halacha does not give a blanket exemption from kibud av v’em.
There are also parents who have a poor relationship with a child, and it is often that the child is a factor in this dysfunction. That child may well feel that the parents are horrible specimens of humanity, but this could be exaggerated due to anger and whatever other emotional variables are present.
Sometimes a child wants to direct his/her life according to a style that is foreign and offensive to parents, who object and do not comply. One may question whether parents should try another approach to parenting, but the conclusion that parents deserve to be disrespected is inaccurate.
There is much to wonder about the details of the question. I would hope that commenters refrain from offering psak halacha, even if qualified to pasken, until there is more information.
An even greater fear is that our children may believe that the mitzvah of mishloach manos is donating money to a yeshiva or other organization instead of sending 2 manos to anyone. Mishloach manos is a mitzvah with specific interpersonal goals. Even the greatest yeshiva or organization, as worthy a charitable cause as they may be, cannot substitute for the mitzvah. Has our community commercialism obscured the mitzvos?
Hey, Mark:
The melochim to which you refer were qualified. Their experience was more than media popularity and having been a community organizer. Furthermore, no one achieved that position because of their skin color and the “political correctness” in the folly of “affirmative action” to promote the unqualified to positions of power. The current leader has been a total disgrace, and has yet to earn any of the respect that should be given to a head of state. We have someone who prioritizes golf to major world events, does by inaction and by action negative things to the country’s allies and friends, befriends every rogue state and terror group – essentially destroying his own country! He also gave us Obamacare, an absolute wrecking of the health care scene, plus uncountable other policies to destroy this country from the inside (immigration, open borders, silly taxes and taxing policy, etc.). He has used his position to be an enemy of the country that he leads. Our tafkid is to learn to tolerate this destruction and to elect someone who can reverse some or most of this disaster. Respect? He is a melech? Come now.
There is another question here, and it is a bit off the topic for this thread.
What is a teacher doing discussing politics with his/her class? If the class is about politics, one might wonder whether this should be part of the curriculum. But it certainly does not fit in a class of Limudei Kodesh.
Respect needs to be earned. One should not be honoring anyone outside of parents (it is a mitzvah) or anyone else for whom the Torah is specific in the obligation to honor. Otherwise, the individual must deserve it. The president, in the opinion of many (including me), has not earned anything but awards for being the opposite of what deserves respect. We might engage in some political debate, and perhaps should. But unless I recognize that he is honorable, I have zero obligation to offer him a drop of kavod. I would not do disrespectful things to him, more out of fear of consequences. But why must I accept the trashy things he has done, in my opinion, to the Constitution, to foreign policy, to his acceptance of radical Islamic terror, etc.? Respect? Tell me why?
I thought this thread was about ACS. Now it is about exterminating bedbugs. Can’t anyone stick to the topic?
Aside from the legalities about the requirements to call ACS, one must be realistic. There has probably never been, anywhere in the world, or throughout history, a government agency as inept as ACS. We are often exposed to stories of where they were brought into a case that required true intervention, but never accomplished it effectively, damaging children. They have also needlessly traumatized countless families, treating them like criminals for absolutely nothing. I have witnessed both. The only thing I would hope is that ACS gets some sort of external audit, and that the logical conclusion is that it is dismantled, to be replaced by a new agency with competence. Wishful thinking.
It would take a great deal of conceit to state agreement with the position of Reb Moshe ZT”L. He doesn’t need my haskomoh. I do wish to call attention to the message. He refrained from citing anything specific as the cause. he only highlighted that the tragedy occurring to those who were diligent in following mitzvos is the call to action for us to increase our diligence in mitzvos. That is general, exactly as it should be. Had Reb Moshe given some specific guidance of what and where to improve, it would also have been welcome. What is a glaring omission is the citing of a cause for the tragedy. That is just as it should be. Reb Moshe was unwilling to make statements about HKB”H’s calculations for how He runs the world and why He makes things happen. That is in contrast to the types of statements that appeared in other threads in which people assumed the role as Hashem’s spokesperson, and proceeded to divulge Divine secrets. These cheshbonos are secret because they are meant to be.
I can accept that a Talmid Chochom, such as Reb Moshe was, could possess Ruach Hakodesh, and could be privy to HKBH’s master plan beyond what is accessible to us mortals. But that neither gives him the authority to divulge this, nor does it mean that he possesses it whenever he wants. My understanding is that Reb Moshe said as much as needs to be said when tragedy occurs. We need to learn from him, and better ourselves in whatever ways we need. If we have a rebbi who can guide us in our Avodas Hashem, we may be on the way to pursuing the madraigos that comprise our potential.
But the frivolous statements that have dotted cyberspace and our heimishe media are irresponsible.
As long as we define the yeshiva standards by quantity of material learned, the Emunoh and Ahavas Hashem will not be transmitted. As stated above by several comments, only example. And to hijack a piece from my comments on another thread, NOT WITH DISCIPLINE. Not because it is wrong, but because it does not yield the desired result.
For instance, “Moishe” has been coming late to Shacharis a few times a week. Prevailing intervention is to levy a monetary fine. We can waste several lines here explaining why this is ridiculous, and ultimately ineffective. One might force the talmid into compliance, but this will not result in appreciation of Tefiloh or Ahavas Hashem. We know what doesn’t work. Now, what does?
How many yeshivos have classes that help talmidim understand Tefiloh? What do we say, why, where did it originate, what role does it play, etc.? Do differences in nusach help us understand the intended messages in Tefiloh? The talmidim who develop some connection to davening will come on time and get their “money’s” worth from this precious opportunity to speak to Hashem personally and privately. One author of a book on Tefiloh shared that he teaches young yeshiva boys, and guides them to insert a personal request into every single tefiloh of the day. Their personalization of davening makes the experience something they cherish and value. That is far more effective than fines, suspensions, or withholding of privileges. Such talmidim will arrive on time for all tefilos.
How much connection and Emunoh can be transmitted by teaching methods that center around the building of the bochur, not the beating into shape?
LF:
I am sure that you have reviewed the references I mentioned above. Rav Wolbe clearly translates ???? as guidance, not punishment. He is not the first to do so, and far from the only one. In fact, I have yet to see who translates it as discipline. That ???? is certainly ??????, and is first choice. The discussion of ???? refers to when it was done and inflicted damage, whether there is responsibility.
I am not preaching the Dr. Spock permissiveness or similar garbage. One must teach children boundaries and limits. Values are a main goal in chinuch, not the downloading of data, as is reflected in today’s yeshiva academics. Nothing here is a ?????. It would be foolish to reward a child for everything, and even dumber for misbehavior. In fact, my position is that learning by “consequence”, whether reward or punishment, is primitive, and only manipulates behavior. That is far from the main goal in chinuch. The main goal is more connected with transmitting Torah from the chain that began with ??? ??? ???? ????? and continues with this rebbi-talmid relationship. If this talmid is rejected, he will disconnect from that chain. “Oops, missed another one!” Every moment in yeshiva is an education moment, including those related to behavior. Don’t modify behavior, teach it.
Putting the kid in charge is foolish. We agree. But bullying a kid into submission cannot be considered chinuch. One does not need to push for power to have the authority. The respect can be earned by being the loving teacher. Behavior is seldom a problem with a rebbi who has sucha relationship with his talmidim. Think back to your own yeshiva experience. That is universally true.
Lastly, the child who exhibits is no better than the rebbi who does so. And, yes, a rebbi can be a ????? as well. The latter is not just degrading to the ????? himself, but it becomes a negative model for the children who see it, and the evil perpetuates ?”?. No part of me justifies the child who answers back to a rebbi. I would not reward it, nor put the kid in charge. Insinuating that is unfair and dishonest. I am simply noting that master mechanchim have spoken and written plenty, and none of them are obsessed with the need to punish (attributing such an approach to ???? ????). There are effective ways to intervene, and these involve some combination of the rebbi accepting responsibility for his own actions, and making clear gestures to embrace the child and have a loving relationship. The Chazon Ish ZT”L (niftar 1953) stated that the guidance of Chazal who stated that one should follow the derech of ???? ???? ????? ????? is not effective in today’s chinuch (the 1950’s), but that we now need to be ???? ????? as well. He understood quite well the children of his generation. Many of those are already great grandparents today. Times have not gotten better.
One additional point. We assume that the discipline provided in yeshivos is fulfillment if the mitzvah of ???? ????? ?? ?????. That is a myth. The ???? ????? is extremely clear (Perek 20) that this mitzvah is contingent on the positive outcome. If the transgressor will not shape up, and might even reject, there is no mitzvah of tochacha, and the mitzvah is to remain silent. Not every behavior needs to be doled a consequence. What ultimately works for the child is the criteria for intervention, not what makes the rebbi’s life easier. Now, let’s just recall the Midrash where HKB”H asked Bnai Yisroel before ??? ???? for guarantors. The ???? and the ?????? were offered and rejected. When they suggested ????? ????? ?????, Hashem accepted the offer with expressions of enthusiasm. Learning/teaching is a task that has its value determined by the effectiveness for the children, not the rebbi. Our Gedolei Yisroel of the generations recognized that. They addressed it specifically. Check out their writings, instead of debating me. They spoke quite eloquently, and they bring more body to the message than I ever can.
Randomex:
You wrote: “Would it be beyond reason to suggest that the person with a greater obligation to honor the other apologize first, namely, the student?
Besides, in this case, the school/yeshiva has the power, and they want the boy to apologize. To start a you-go-first standoff seems counter-productive to me. (Call me a defeatist if you want to.)”
The honor issue is brought up all the time, and it is irrelevant. Whoever wronged another has the chiyuv to apologize. To exploit honor, with the expectation that the other has the obligation to give kavod and therefore must humble himself is purely ignorant. Because the rebbe has the chiyuv to be mechanech, if anyone needs to go first, it is him. The power thing is also irrelevant. Does the weaker one always need to bow in submission to the bully? What a bizayon!. Yet, that is the common occurence, and it is a shame that this has become the way of our yeshivos. The one with the chiyuv in yeshiva is the rebbe, not the talmid. That’s what chinuch is. These standoffs are regular occurrence, and they are directly correlated with the rebelliousness we see today.
One point I made above deserves additional emphasis. Modeling. That’s the most effective, powerful means of teaching, and it is incumbent on every rebbe or teacher to use this. It goes way beyond the best mussar lectures.
To teach a talmid to apologize – the rebbe should apologize. This rebbe has zero obligation to wait for the talmid to do so first. This is not a bein odom lachaveiro issue, which might be the case if we were dealing with peers. It is rebbe-talmid. If this rebbe is worth keeping in a classroom, he should display the behavior of asking mechilah. This has nothing with who did it first or any other excuses. In order to teach someone to be a mentch, just show him how to be a mentch. If I hear any excuses about kavod haTorah to justify the rebbe not apologizing, I’ll throw up my breakfast.
This scenario is unfortunately very far from uncommon. Our current chinuch system believes that is a behavior that is best treated with discipline, punishment, etc. This is a myth. Even Shlomo Hamelech made passing mention about discipline as something that should not be abandoned, not as an ideal or a staple of chinuch. On the contrary, he concludes that famous, overused posuk ???? ???? ???? ??? with the ending ?????? ???? ????. Thus, even the ??? ??? ??? guides us to be the loving rebbe (and parent), not the punishing one. No, I’m not making this up. Please refer to the brilliant words by Rav Wolbe ZT”L on this subject.
Bottom line is that the kid who is talking back to the rebbi is communicating a critical message. That rebbi’s responsibility is not to modify the behavior through consequences, but to explore it. Why is this kid upset. Am I claiming that the rebbi has the role of a therapist? Sort of. When that rebbi will understand what makes this kid tick, the child will feel understood, and won’t need to resort to chutzpah.
I am not condoning unacceptable behavior. But I think poorly of the rebbi who resorts to punishment or other forms of discipline at almost any provocation. Kids are kids, and punishing them just make them have why to rebel.
Here comes a controversial statement. If one studies the backgrounds of kids who are OTD, one of the glaring commonalities is that they have been disciplined, often too harshly, often unfairly or undeserving of it, but always in a way that was personally rejecting by a rebbi who had zero training how to address the kid. I fault the mosdos for hiring the untrained faculty, and I fault the parents for allowing such treatment of their kids to continue. Discipline has its place, but there is no mechanech alive who can match wits with Shlomo Hamelech who made discipline a last resort.
There are yeshivos who boast having rebbeiim who will find an excuse to smack up talmidim towards the beginning of the school year to “show who is boss”. They then lie about how the rest of the class idolizes that rebbi years later. Such behavior is against halacha. Torah was not intended to be crammed in a child who would then reject it revengefully. In fact, the best method of teaching is modeling. The rebbe taking harsh action instead of addressing the kids’ needs is poor teaching, probably malpractice, and against halacha. For those wishing to attack my controversial statements, I ask one thing. Study the many seforim on chinuch (available at many seforim stores), the ones authored by (or compiled from the writings and shiurim of) many Gedolei Yisroel, such as Rav Shach, the Nesivos Shalom, Rav Wolbe,Rav Zilberstein, Rav Aharon Friedman, Pinsk-Karlin Rebbe, Rav Gamliel Rabinovitch, Rav Glikman, and many others. Then when we have these Torah sources that are totally opposed to the approach that is so commonplace in our yeshivos, we will debate. No one is taking me on. The opposition is this array of Gedolim.