The little I know

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  • in reply to: Can a man be STUCK in a marriage? #1358534
    The little I know
    Participant

    Yes. And women can be stuck in a marriage, too. There is no gender issue with this – there are people who just won’t end a marriage, for any of a variety of reasons. Haimy noted quite accurately that there is only a little discussion of this topic in general terms that is worthwhile. It will not accomplish much for someone reading and wondering about him/herself, or someone close to them who may be in such a situation. I am no fan of medical advice on the internet, but this has even less value.

    There are marriages that linger on in misery. Discussions don’t help much. And many don’t progress in therapy because of the deep resistance that some may have to change. And there are marriages that just cannot succeed because of the chemistry. Some people learn to live with adverse situations, while others cannot tolerate it.

    People consult with rabbonim all the time, and some are capable of giving advice in this area while others (with the best of intentions and massive scholarship in Torah) are unable to be useful. There are times when the status quo won’t budge until there is the equivalent of brute force. One party moves out, consults with a beis din, takes a lawyer, etc. The result is most often a more bitter situation than before, and the sparring over kids, money, etc. can escalate. Sooner or later, these marriages do end, after lots of money has been spent on the haggling (beis din, toanim, lawyers, etc.)

    Here are a few generalities. Specific advice or direction needs to come from a thorough picture of the case from someone experienced and trained.

    in reply to: Chinuch. Parents Vs Schools #1357890
    The little I know
    Participant

    From of the discussion here, it seems that there is confusion over the definition of “chutzpah”. It would be dangerous to say that chutzpah is whatever the rebbi says it is. Yes, I said it would be dangerous. With the limited training and experience that too many rebbeim have, they are more apt to take a challenging question as chutzpah, and respond to the situation emotionally, rather than academically. The answer to the Avimelech – Elimelech situation should have NEVER included the retort the rebbi gave, regardless of whether he was right or wrong about the truth. A rebbi has no privilege to bring his emotional state into the classroom, other than that which is needed to love every talmid, and have personal investment in seeing that talmid succeed. Here, it seems clear that this rebbi allowed his ego into the room, and his response came from that part of him – a real no-no in chinuch.

    So what is chutzpah? I won’t propose a standard definition here. What I will say is that chutzpah is not a form of rebellion, but a symptom that the child is unhappy. It could be a poor relationship between the child and that rebbi, maybe with friends, other faculty members, maybe outside issues that the child brings into the room. The talmid can bring these issues into class with him – because he is a kid. Part of chinuch is to help the talmid push aside the other distractions, and focus on the studies. The rebbi that is clueless about this is simply untrained, and simply incompetent. That is his job. And if he lacks the skills to perform the needed tasks, then he should change careers.

    What the average rebbi calls chutzpah is the child’s cry for attention. Hey, Rebbi, Rebbi, do your job. These opportunities to invoke discipline are teaching moments. Use them.

    in reply to: Chinuch. Parents Vs Schools #1357121
    The little I know
    Participant

    GH:

    I agree that it is imperative that students adhere to the rules of the yeshiva. Encouraging rebellion is never positive. But the real issue here is different. That is, should the yeshiva be imposing these rules on their students? The fact is that they can make any rules they want, even if these rules make no sense. Any store can make its own rules, as it is a private enterprise.

    But we would hope that our yeshivos are public entities, and are here to advance the continuity of Torah, thus performing a vital public service. If so, the rules must categorically be for the benefit of the students. So, pick the rule, and examine whether it serves the student, assisting in growth, education, or character refinement. If not, it is likely in place to enhance the image or reputation of the yeshiva, its hanhala, or to feed someone’s ego. The latter is shameful, and such policies and rules should never be made in the first place. I still think that compliance is important, but it is a few levels below stupid to think that is more important than helping every single talmid develop a connection to HKB”H and a passion to grow in Torah and Mitzvos.

    Lastly, discipline that is common in many yeshivos today (there has been noteworthy improvement here, but nowhere near enough) is via consequences and punishment, which is distancing and potentially destructive. The true discipline that is critical to chinuch is guidance. As I have repeated so many times in the CR, revisit the many seforim from Gedolei Yisroel on chinuch. I am only expressing their agenda, based purely on Torah.

    in reply to: Chinuch. Parents Vs Schools #1356474
    The little I know
    Participant

    Winnie:

    You wrote: “If the Rebbe/Morah teaches something wrong, it should be corrected. But how it is done is the key- no making fun of the Rebbe/Morah, putting him/her down for not knowing.”

    I completely agree. The truth of this statement is obvious. What is routinely neglected is that the same is true for the reverse. Students are more apt to make mistakes than their rebbeim or teachers. And our Chazal teach us in Pirkei Avos יהי כבוד תלמידך חביב עליך כשלך. The respect of a talmid is a clear dictate on this Mishna. Yet, the name calling, public shaming, and degrading of a talmid, whose mistake may be in the subject matter of the learning, or more likely in behavior, are completely assur, yet daily occurrence.

    It is perfectly within the responsibility of the parents to inform the rebbe, teacher, or menahel(es) who shames a student that they better stop it. Obviously, this requires direct interaction, not using the child as an intermediary. But if the faculty cannot demonstrate respectfulness of the talmidim, they have already taught by example that respect is not important.

    Good point, but it’s a two way street.

    The little I know
    Participant

    A friend told me about a rebbe he had that walked into class, and almost every bochur was wearing a rather small yarmulka. One of those bochurim had parents who had traveled to Israel, and brought back this package of kipot for their son and his entire class. The rebbe sat down, took out a dime from his pocket, gazed back and forth at the coin and yarmulkas. The bochurim all changed to their regular yarmulkas. Not a word spoken. No one embarrassed. No discipline – just simple, basic education.

    Any rebbeim like this left? Or are we too busy legislating, imposing, and focused on control?

    The little I know
    Participant

    akuperma:

    You wrote: “As long as it doesn’t violate halacha, Jewish school can make rules (even arbitrary and capricious ones) , just like all other private schools – even if such rules are not required by halacha.”

    I take strong issue with this. I know I will be drowned out, but I am fully aware that it is Elul, and I cannot accept concepts that are blatantly wrong. My conscience is perfectly clear.

    As a private school, these yeshivos and schools certainly CAN make any rules they wish. Unless, of course, the rules themselves violate halacha. But SHOULD they? I believe that these rules that are arbitrary, contribute zero to ruchniyus, do not make talmidim/os feel welcome, appreciated, and do not otherwise benefit the talmidim are destructive. They prove to the world, and to the neshamos the schools are supposed to value, that the image of the yeshiva and its administration reign supreme. Rules that do not benefit the student body are not just useless, but are potentially destructive.

    In too many cases, rules are there to boast to other mosdos that this one is better, holier, and more machmir. In too many cases, these rules serve to exclude some, punish others, and embarrass a whole lot more. And in my book, exclusion, punishment, and shame are severely negative factors in chinuch (I include parents in this, not just yeshivos).

    I noted this many times before in other threads, but we are presently gifted to have a substantial selection of seforim from Gedolei Yisroel or our generation and few previous ones onthe subject of chinuch. These are precious reservoirs of Torah guidance on how to be mechanech (again both parents and yeshivos). Their knowledge and wisdom is Torah derived, so no one has a complaint that these are modern or secular. NONE of them accept the types of exclusion, punishment, or shaming that are commonplace in today’s yeshivos and schools. We are busy questioning whether today’s yeshivos can make rules. Yes, they can. They can require all pens be blue ink or black ink. They can require pencils to have erasers or not. They can require yarmulkas to be certain colors, sizes, and number of sections. They are not public servants, but purveyors of private enterprises. They are not עוסקים בצרכי ציבור. The special שכר granted to עוסקים בצרכי ציבור does not apply to them. So they CAN make such rules. But if we examine whether these rules are of benefit to the mission that one would expect them to have, as providing an opportunity to the younger generation to be connected to the mesora of Torah from Har Sinai, they fail completely. And it is a real shame, because they can choose to be that conduit. They can choose to be a public service, but they opt out of that.

    I am not addressing any individual yeshiva or school. I speak to the trend that has gripped them all, not different from the addictions that affect so many. To justify that which is destructive is what the drug addict does when he/she risks death or injury with each high.

    For those who would attack me that I am being motzi shem rah, I assure you that I have no such intention. I beg that we recognize the great potential that every yeshiva has, as a prime source of עידוד וחיזוק to every single neshomoh, to help each child learn to enjoy Torah and Mitzvos, and grow in Ahavas Hashem and Yir’as Hashem. To divert the energy to these small matters strips the potential of the yeshiva from accomplishing the mission for which it is needed.

    in reply to: Is technology causing the shidduch crisis? #1353891
    The little I know
    Participant

    LU: You wrote: “Yes, technology is causing the shidduch crisis. If it weren’t for technology, people wouldn’t be able to post narishkeit about the shidduch crisis in the CR.”

    This is absolutely brilliant! I agree.

    We have several problems here. Firstly, is there a shidduch crisis? It seems to me to resemble the discussion about climate change. You first decide if you want this to be a problem, then get enough people to buy into it, then fashion the science and scientists around it. There have been some rather educated discussions, with analysis of data. Not terribly scientific, but a good try. Even that yields no real conclusion. All we really know is that specific singles are struggling to find their shidduch.

    Secondly, the trend seems to be to place the technology, internet, smartphones, etc. as the universal cause for problems. This happens to make very little sense. It is like blaming the Vietnam War on technology. It might sound good. But whatever “shidduch crisis” is believed to exist, it predated technology by many years.

    Like everything else, technology is widely used, and some aspects of it can easily contribute to various problems. Can one blame lashon horah on social media? I wouldn’t doubt the contributions to LH by social media. But the problem existed eons ago. Schmutz existed as far back as one can study history. We all know what the oldest profession was. The internet facilitated matters, and greatly reduced effort needed to do these aveiros. Did technology cause it? Bupkis!

    in reply to: Smartphones #1351733
    The little I know
    Participant

    LU & DY:

    You imply that I neglect the addictive features of a fully filtered smartphone and its impact on our lives. Not at all. I do not believe that there is a successful way of legislating that, and that doing so will result in any improvement. The bans absolutely accomplish nothing with regards to making our lives more Torahdik. Nothing.

    Serious lacking from this discussion, as well as many other discussions in the CR is that we have failed to maintain the passion and התלהבות that is the energy of continuity for Yiddishkeit. Without it, there is no experience of סיפוק הנפש, and the human being will predictably gravitate towards the easiest direction to experience הנאת הגוף. There are a myriad of possibilities, and the yetzer horah is continually honing his skills to do his job better. He uses all the tools that are available, and technology is one of them. HKB”H allowed these advances in science to give us a boost in our Avodas Hashem. These forms of technology are not evil. But the yetzer horah does quite well, making us use them for lashon horah, and making us addicted to the instant communications that were never needed before these inventions. Just 20 years ago, we shopped without cell phones, and we somehow survived the experience of additional items being needed, or showing pictures of something to everyone we know. We all survived eating suppers without broadcasting to the world the menus. And if we found meaning in our lives, these “advances” would all be experienced as just specimens of stupidity that reduce our functioning to that of a monkey in the zoo.

    No, I am not oblivious to these aspects of technology. They exist pretty much on flip phones. The bells and whistles do not trigger the yetzer horah. But they can be used as tools, just as going to shul on Shabbos can be a place where to socialize, sometimes with דבורי חול, sometimes with לשון הרע, sometimes talking during davening. It is a foolish to say that someone who does that should never go to shul.

    We have seen the viral clips of people busy with their phones, walking into pools, glass doors, etc. I would love to see one of these hapless souls try to sue the manufacturer of the phone because he/she was distracted and did such completely inane things. Would it be the fault of the phone? yes, technology has advanced, and that is continuing. Our grandchildren may one day remark about how we need to hold cell phones or dial on them. All the asifos in the world won’t reverse that. Learn to live with it.

    in reply to: Smartphones #1351459
    The little I know
    Participant

    Too much noise.

    The smartphone isn’t the problem. It is the user. (Guns don’t kill, people kill.) The ease of getting the wrong place on the internet renders it a significant risk. And that risk needs to be addressed. The level at which it needs to be approached may not be universal.

    I strongly suggest that the discussion leave alone the incredible technology that the smartphone offers. It can be harnessed and directed to perform much useful, safe, and kosher service. The real matter at hand is the internet access. That, if unfettered and unfiltered, exposes the user to great risk. The otherwise frum, thoroughly observant person can have a normal moment of weakness, and venture to where he/she doesn’t belong. The yetzer horah is content to wait for this, much as a hungry lion waits for the right moment to attack.

    The phone with other capabilities is not bad, dangerous, or risky. Banning it is a lame effort at trying to control others, and only serves to limit the kosher use of technology. Meanwhile, filtering technology has progressed greatly, and a smartphone with many valuable uses can have its browser blocked, and all its activity filtered. It is foolish to ban such a phone any better than to ban walking down the street because someone immodestly dressed might walk that same block.

    in reply to: Obama’s Legacy 👳‍♂️💣🏌️‍♂️🗡 #1350451
    The little I know
    Participant

    I was thinking about this, and jotted down a few items in just a few minutes. I need to think a bit more to make sure I haven’t omitted anything. But having someone else with a very different approach is a breath of fresh air.

    • Disempowering law enforcement
    • Racism is determined by the accuser
    • Political correctness is stronger than the Constitution
    • Gender self-identity is not biologically determined, and is fluid according to mood
    • Science can only discover what politicians want
    • Democrats are above the law
    • Partisan politics is the loftiest goal for Democrats, but criminal for Republicans
    • Control the media, control the world
    • All blacks convicted in America are victims of racism and should be pardoned
    • Islam is a religion of peace, and their terror is excused and worth supporting
    • Circumventing Congress for personal agenda is praiseworthy

    in reply to: Additional Societal Casualties Of The Shidduch Crisis #1349992
    The little I know
    Participant

    To those obsessed with the divorce rate, and the belief that there is any segment of the Torah observant community that has a greater or lesser percentage of failed marriages:

    There is probably no feasible way to study this scientifically. But there are anecdotal reports that are enough to give us a good idea.

    There are several types of people involved directly in gittin. These include dayanim, toanim, sofrim, matrimonial lawyers, mediators, and various therapists and counselors. Ask them if they are busy. I did. They are very busy.

    Our population has grown, so more gittin does not imply that the “rate” is increasing. But it does imply a reasonable chance that almost everyone knows someone who is divorced.

    Today’s world is different. Our young people are apt to feel entitled, and preparation for marriage has not kept pace. Perhaps the damaging role of the Internet is the ease of communicating with others, getting to feel supported in the efforts to leave a marriage. Accessing services is also easier.

    Is the rate rising? I have no reason to believe that. I bet it fluctuates, and there could be an upticking of the numbers. But there is a larger population, and even the same old rate would mean higher numbers.

    I would point out a few issues, probably deserving of another thread, that are significant underlying factors in current divorces.

    One – withholding or secret keeping of information prior to a shidduch. There are young people with various issues, mental illness, etc. whose parents do not disclose that information prior to the shidduch. The discovery after the fact is quite shocking, and some of these issues are interferences in conducting a normal home. Gedolim are not consistent in when to disclose, but I have yet to encounter anyone that says to not disclose at all prior to the completion of a shidduch. yes, Chassidishe, Litvishe, and Yeshivishe communities are equal on this.

    Two – getting married for the wrong reason. Some newlyweds that are in trouble will share that they got married because their friends were all getting married. There is not an ounce of saichel to this. If your friend is hungry, do you go to eat?

    Three – poor preparation. So many couples today have no clue what marriage means. No idea how to communicate. No idea how to be respectful of the other, the in-law family, the other’s choices of career, learning, and personal choices. Parental role models are often inadequate, and the teaching by chosson and kallah teachers (which has overall improved over the years) is still woefully inadequate.

    Four – lack of skills. How many young marrieds have a clue how to manage a budget? Do they know how to juggle the responsibilities between the religious and the mundane? How aware are they that the squeezing of one’s hands by davening is unrelated to kavana, which is a spiritual connection? Do they know how to instill true ruchniyos in their home, or are they obsessed with chumros?

    Five – living for others. We have never been as preoccupied with image as in our generation. We need x because someone else has it. We are busy with what others think of us. We must appear perfect for the pictures. Societal recognition has surpassed in importance what we want HKB”H to think of us, and what we think of ourselves and each other.

    Six – we have become overly shallow. The labels we apply to things and people are not just inaccurate (we can’t really know all we think we know) but actually serve to limit our experience. One facet of this is the midoh to be “dan lekaf zechus”, which is so often trashed in the labeling process. We generalize way too often. We struggle to find the good in others or in events. A classic example is getting stuck in traffic, when we later discover that had we been somewhere earlier, we could have been in an accident.

    Seven – poor prioritization, sometimes horrific. We suffer from a sense of priorities that is sometimes so thwarted that it is senseless and even dangerous. Do we consider or reject a shidduch based on appearance, levush, or pedigree? This subject is really a long one, and deserves its own forum.

    I could go one and on, but this sampling is a start. What is critical is that these issues are equal opportunity. Large families do not suffer from worse marriages or more divorces. There are factors that distinguish the happy from the miserable, but Chassidish versus Litvish versus Yeshivish are not among them.

    in reply to: Is the shidduch crises real ? #1349676
    The little I know
    Participant

    LU: You wrote “I’m not saying that no girl should go to college, but whichever choice she makes, it is crucial that she recognize that there are dangers to going to college and that it is something that it is better to avoid. But as with most things in life, each choice has chesronos and maalos, and one has to weigh all the factors before making a decision.”

    Deciding to enter college is a major decision, and carries benefits and risks. Agreed. Who makes that decision? Is the individual responding to the seeking of advice someone reciting party line, or is it someone who knows the girl, the school, the subject matter, the environment, etc.? I also hesitate to say that college is better avoided. That assumes a lot, and is not factual. People need to pursue careers based on their assets and liabilities, not the political positions of the Chassidishe, Litvishe, and Yeshivashe spokespeople. That is not a responsible piece of advice, just as it would be incompetent for a doctor to treat someone without having evaluated all the relevant aspects of the patient.

    What tells you, or anyone else, that the dangers of walking down Avenue J or M, 16th or 13th Avenues are so much less than going to pursue education on a college campus? The lack of tznius on these streets and others is alarming. From the other end, there are many options to pursue college careers without the need to frequent the campus environments that are truly a challenge.

    I still believe the statement about the “ruchniyos outlook on life” is just a phrase that connotes nothing. It omits the level of someone’s true emunoh, and implies a very external, superficial concept of “ruchniyos” that really has little to do with Torah and Mitzvos.

    Having said this, I must give a plug for something that has appeared on this site. We are too busy looking for what to “asser”, as if that is the stairway to true Avodas Hashem. Yes, we do have 248 Mitzvos Lo Saaseh, and the plethora of gezairos and takanos to protect us from violating them. But we are obsessed with this subject, to the terrible loss of addressing the real neshomoh of our existence, the emotional connection with HKB”H and our emotions of Ahavas Hashem and Yir’as Hashem. As long as we divert our energy to the persistent search of what to ban, we will have no resources to build up our inner strength to overcome Yetzer Horah.

    This statement is broad, deep, and will cause some consternation. Yes, I am taking the wind out of the sails of those askanim looking for what to ban, whose names to place on Kol Koreh’s, and what to herald as the next target of fanatics. Yes, many college campuses are places that a Yid should think twice before entering. But the general topic is only seen as evil when generalizing, and not accounting for the specifics of a particular situation. Additionally, if we are busy bandaiding the public against the terrible yetzer horah that is nurtured by the environment of a college campus, and we are obsessed with banning smartphones (regardless of whether they are filtered), the yetzer horah will simply accommodate and divert his energies to other things. Yes, one can speak the worst of loshon horah on a “kosher” phone. The Bais Hamedrash should be the epitome of holiness, but is home to gaavah, talking during davening, and lots of other behavioral ills. Trying to places patches everywhere the yetzer horah can reside is a never ending battle, and he is the מלך זקן וכסיל that has a lot more experience. College is a certain degree of risk, but it is not the all over evil that requires such broad efforts to insure it is never seen.

    in reply to: Is the shidduch crises real ? #1348611
    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph wrote: “GH: Men are created by design from our Creator to go outside in the world whereas women are created by our Creator to mostly be at home and not outside in the wide world.”

    RebYidd23 wrote: “Gadolhadorah, women are more susceptible to the toxic ideology of feminism that will tell them to pursue a career instead of children.”

    There is something to these responses. כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה is not a flowery, social nicety, but a true guide for a spiritual life based on the fulfillment of one’s תפקיד for being sent to reside in this world. But getting carried away with this to the extreme is equally problematic. There have always been women who fulfilled a position for the Klal that was not just crucial, but praised by the Torah. We can see open reference to מרים הנביאה, רבקה אמנו, רחל אמנו, דבורה הנביאה, and אסתר המלכה. Each of these had specific reasons to do things outside the home when it was the proper time. Neither you nor I are the ones to say whether any particular girl belongs in the home or doing something that includes walking out of her home.

    There is a reality here. Women will leave the four walls of their home to shop, and many to work. The current zeitgeist is that women provide the income so that their husbands can stay glued to their seat in kollel. While I am not a proponent of this indiscriminate filling of kollelim, the reality is that the dependency (for better or worse) on women’s working is here to stay. If you advocate that women should not have careers, prepare to battle the kollel system. I wish I could reduce kollel lifestyle by a huge percent, but am aware that this animal is greater than my ability to control it.

    Lastly, the pursuit of career is not in lieu of children. Such an accusation is baseless. I know many families in which the wife/mother works and raises children, even large families. You sound as if you know the fertility issues of career women, and I demand you prove this if you want to continue the discussion with that premise.

    What is toxic about feminism is that it ignores the G-d created differences between men and women. That some women work is not feminism. It is about necessity.

    in reply to: Is the shidduch crises real ? #1348595
    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph wrote: :1) Going to college reduces a girl’s ruchniyos outlook on life.

    2) Even without going to college, the longer a girl waits to get married after Beis Yaakov her level of ruchniyos deteriorates.:

    Both of these points are quite comical, and neither have a basis in reality.

    Firstly, we are reading this with the need to assume that Joseph knows exactly what “ruchniyos outlook on life” means. This phrase, at the very least, is vague, even to the writer. It is virtual gibberish to the reader.

    Secondly, there is a serious nature vs. nurture issue here. And it is magnified ever so much more by the role of home learning versus college learning. I suggest that the truly frum, “ruchniyos” driven girl will be hardly impacted by college life. Now, in what way does college education diminish one’s outlook on life? By establishing parnosoh so that one does not need to be dependent on parents or handouts?

    Thirdly, the amount of time between graduating Bais Yaakov until getting married is purported to cause a decrease in “ruchniyos outlook on life”. How does that work? Beginning with the hypothesis that we all know what that puzzling phrase means, how does time work against it?

    Joseph – you have an agenda. Sometimes it is easy to recognize from your posts. I’m not sure here what you are pushing. Should we force a girl to marry because of her birthdate or the date she graduated Bais Yaakov? What if that shidduch is not appropriate for any of many reasons? Are you going to police her thoughts that she should sentence herself to a life of unpredictable challenge because it is now a full year since she graduated? That would create a reverse shidduch crisis, where shidduchim happen, but are doomed because they were made out of technicality instead of any of the issues that matter. That would create an even greater chaos of divorces, agunos, and the rest of that can or worms.

    What is the agenda?

    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    Just because something is permitted by American Law does not mean is the right thing or a good thing to do. We have a rule of דינא דמלכותא דינא, but that does not mean that we can venture into the designated gender specific bathroom just because we feel (fe)male that day. But it is recognized under American law!

    The issue here is zealotry. We need major strong leadership to undertake that. There have certainly been such leaders around. Although we have failed to find anyone with the appropriate “plaitzes” for quite some time. There is unquestionably a chilul Hashem factor to address, besides chilul Shabbos. There is also a capital issue of whether this move is more important than staying home and learning. It is also debatable whether this drama helps the situation. Sure, it draws attention. But that does not solve the problem at all. There are hundreds of other cell phone stores, and one can easily buy phones and plans online without entering the brick and mortar establishment. Have we accomplished anything by this circus?

    I would have been satisfied to see that the owner of the store should be ordered by Rabbonim to sell only kosher or filtered phones to his Jewish customers. This high profile action will not limit access to smartphones. It will only embarrass the owner of the store, and probably cause him other hardships. Is that what we should be doing? During Elul?

    The little I know
    Participant

    With all due respect to free speech, plus the obligation to be מוחה when someone is violating halacha, I have nothing but disgust for these demonstrations. They do nothing except for gaining attention in the goyishe media, and the behavior of the protesters (from either side) will be scrutinized to where there is almost a guarantee of chilul Hashem. Having strong opinions about something does not trash the issur of chilul Hashem. It might have made sense of a consensus of Rabbonim placed an issur on patronizing his store, or did something to insure that phones sold there are either with filters or otherwise “kosher” phones. BTW, speaking lashon horah on “kosher” phones does not render it muttar. So what is the real issue here?

    in reply to: How could a multi-billion dollar thief do teshuva? #1345639
    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    At the neshomoh level, a Yid who is not frum is no different from one who is. At that level, every single neshomoh is a child of HKB”H, as the Gemora states clearly (בבא בתרא דף י’ ע”א) that whether we are fulfilling Ratzon Hashem or not, בין כך ובין כך איקרי בנים. While I do not need to consider the Yid who is not keeping mitzvos a suitable shidduch for my child, I have no authority to address the connection he has to HKB”H. That matter is purely בין אדם למקום, and that is territory where I cannot trespass.

    For that matter, the seforim tell us that teshuvah for anything is possible. However, someone else’s teshuvah is not accessible to me. I cannot base anything I do on it, and I cannot ever really know what is going on in that realm. If the OP’s question is otherwise expressed as: If I commit a major theft of enormous sums of money, which I will never be able to compensate, what teshuvah can I do? Valid question, since we are told that a prerequisite for teshuvah for גנבה or גזלה is the repayment. If the question is worrying about Madoff, or any other such individual who embezzled major monies, I suggest we redirect. If my personal חשבון הנפש is meaningful at all, I have enough work to do on myself, and have no business minding someone else’s חשבון הנפש.

    in reply to: Calling cops on frum neighbor #1343610
    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd:

    Come now. You would ask the neighbor if they are being abused? Really? And you would expect the answer to be factually accurate? How many victims of abuse are frightened to death to disclose that information? How many tolerate and suffer for long periods of time before they report anything to anyone?

    Review the literature on domestic violence. Let me share a few observations that were reported in the several articles and books written by and for the frum community. Women who are being beaten often hide the abuse out of shame. Many have marks from the injuries, bruises, etc. However, the men are diligent in hitting them where there will not be much exposure, and no one will know. It is not uncommon to find the first alert by the matrons in the mikva who get to see these injuries, while the victims still avoid acknowledging it or seeking help.

    The idea of just marching over to ask is close to perfectly ineffective. You need another strategy to make the failure to call police not a clear violation of לא תעמוד על דם רעך.

    in reply to: Schools Moving To Lakewood #1343213
    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    You wrote; “A side effect of this dynamic is that schools outside of Lakewood are shrinking as a result of young couples and families moving out to Lakewood.”

    That is not the case at all. I challenge you to name a single yeshiva or girls school that is losing students due to the mobility to Lakewood. It is true that the cramming of students in the schools in the New York area is a contributing factor to families looking to live elsewhere, and Lakewood is hot right now. But there are no yeshivos suffering from enrollment drop in NY.

    There are enough babies born in Lakewood every year to warrant the opening of a new school. The influx of young couples places an added burden. Yeshivos in NY are not hurting for applicants, and there are plenty of both boys and girls that will experience difficulty with acceptance in yeshivos this coming school year. Yes, there are other issues that are fodder for debate in the CR, such as rejections due to finances, the arbitrary rules of parents’ dress codes, etc. But space is an issue, and a very legitimate one. You cannot put 35 students in a class where the room size and the rebbe are capable of 25.

    in reply to: a Wake up call for Yeshiva’s & Bais Yaakov’s #1343157
    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    Your facts are obsolete, if they were ever accurate.

    Today’s world of psychology is based on empirical data. For the overwhelming percentage of recognized and accepted practice, there are volumes, even reams of research that support its efficacy. We are long past the times when theories became popular and entered mainstream practice. Special ed has the luxury of being even more founded on scientifically proven techniques. There are several reasons for this. One notable one is that the success or failure of a technique is more easily quantified and observed.

    Psychology has always been a science. It is a softer science than engineering, and thus subject to refutation and newer discoveries. This happens in the hard sciences as well, as perfection is not common among humans. But you overplay the minimal amount of inaccuracy or lack of efficacy. Sounds like you have an agenda.

    The OP’s point is that our mainstream yeshivos can easily be more inclusive by providing a wider array of services. Some of this requires additional staff with specialized training. Other ideas might be better training of the regular staff/faculty. Both of these are likely to meet up with considerable resistance. So even to the degree that we may agree with the OP, remaining skeptical that these ideas will fly is predictable.

    in reply to: What’s a girl to do if her father is not a Talmid Chacham? #1341707
    The little I know
    Participant

    There is definition needed here, as there may be varied perceptions of what is meant by תלמיד חכם. Until that is established, no one here can understand the other.

    Define please.

    in reply to: Calling cops on frum neighbor #1339670
    The little I know
    Participant

    Health:

    That’s correct. Main point is that during sofek sakanah, it is against halacha to go find a Rov to ask. And for the present moment in which the actual danger is not happening, go ahead and ask all the shailos you want, including what to do when you hear noises that sound dangerous.

    in reply to: Calling cops on frum neighbor #1339601
    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    For your thrill, just mosey over to your Rov this week, and ask him what you should do when you encounter a sofek sakanah? Should you then come ask the shailoh or should you take safety related action? Then post his response here please.

    One who acts for safety, even in the case of sofek is exempt from all the halachos you push – yuour personal agenda.

    Health:

    I seriously doubt that the sheer decibel level of the neighbors home was distressing to where some guidance was sought (not that posting in the CR is the equivalent of asking a shailoh). If there was the belief that there was a chance of the noise indicating trouble, there is good reason to reach out to the appropriate first responders for the emergency. There are too many variables to know whether this is Hatzoloh, Shomrim, Chaveirim, Shmira, police, EMS, or fire department. What is clear is that if this is the issue, running to find your Rov at that point is neither required by halacha, nor is it responsible. Picture someone drowning. Should you try to rescue, or should you ask a shailoh? The latter is so senseless that it is offensive to make this sound like a holy thing to do.

    in reply to: Calling cops on frum neighbor #1339539
    The little I know
    Participant

    I continue to be appalled at the armchair paskening of mesira shailos. It is similarly offensive to apply the “raglayim ledovor” psak from Rav Elyoshiv ZT”L where it has no relevance.

    When there is a suspicion of molestation, one could easily argue for a shailoh to be asked. Why? Because it is not happening at the moment, and the delay in asking a Rov is not occurring while dangerous activity is happening. When danger is happening in the present, even a sofek sakana, one must act immediately. If you present me with such a situation involving abuse, i would say the same, and no one I ever discussed the subject with considers Rav Elyoshiv’s statement relevant to that. I dare to say the poskim I had these discussions with are far more qualified than any of the posters or commenters in the CR.

    Meanwhile, I repeat my disdain for the amateur application of the issur of mesira where there is present danger and even sofek sakanah. Go back and learn the halachos, and once a qualified expert, restate your opinions here.

    in reply to: When Yossi’s depression was mistaken for Atzlus by his mashgiach #1338370
    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd23:

    Relief Resources makes referrals to mental health professionals and facilities. They are constantly updating their resources, vetting every one to the best they can. They are the best stop when looking for the best professionals in the many niches of the field. What I do not know is whether they are equipped with the staff to educate the yeshivos and their faculties to be better observers of mental health issues. If yes, kol hakavod. But there are many other avenues to connect mental health professionals with yeshivos. I would hope that these are being utilized.

    apushatayid:

    I guess your observation about being the month for chinuch bashing is correct. In reality, chinuch, with its many serious problems, has many successes and achievements. These are not fodder for commenting on the web. Maybe there should be a showcase for hakoras hatov to those stellar mechanchim who do their jobs well. This tends to happen posthumously, such as the recent petira of Rav Aharon Brofman ZT”L, someone I personally knew to be a gift to the field of chinuch, and now a tragic loss to the entire chinuch world.

    What makes chinuch bashing so exciting is that there is enough to go around, to resounding denial of the chinuch field that believes that only parents and kids make mistakes. When you hear of a mechanech admitting a mistake, it is newsworthy. Yes, it does sometimes happen, and these individuals are the real superstars of the field.

    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    Today’s nonsense was NOT the shittoh of the Divrei Yoel. Inquire. You will discover that as radical as his shittoh was, it did not take priority to the basics of Torah and Avodas Hashem.

    in reply to: When Yossi’s depression was mistaken for Atzlus by his mashgiach #1338235
    The little I know
    Participant

    The problem is actually greater than this instance demonstrates. Nearly all observed behavior in yeshiva is addressed in a disciplinary way. There is definitely a place for discipline. But a huge portion of the observed behaviors are problem issues that individuals experience, and these need to be healed, not punished. So much of what prompts punishment is really a child’s cry for help. Sensitive mechanchim know exactly what I mean. The run-of-the-mill mechanchim, who entered the field because they needed a job and were not qualified for anything else (including chinuch) tend to view their biggest challenge as classroom management, not teaching. And the most direct way to control a class is with reward and punishment (the latter far more often). It doesn’t teach anything, but makes the classroom less chaotic, and easier to manage.

    Proper training for mechanchim at all levels would include some introduction to mental health. They are not required to become expert diagnosticians, and certainly not therapists. But they should recognize flags and know how to raise issues for referral or professional evaluation. And this possibility always needs to be considered before punishment or shaming. Accusations, if false, and terribly damaging.

    What would have likely happened if the Mashgiach or the rebbe would have looked to be mekarev the bochur? It might have failed, since it was a clinical depression, but the damage of being considered a porek ohl would have been forestalled.

    The little I know
    Participant

    There is much to Satmar that is praiseworthy and admirable. Reb Yoelish ZT”L created some great foundations for chesed etc. The trouble is that his shittos about Zionism were radical. Yet, he himself would be considered moderate to today’s Satmar attitudes. There are many stories that support this. What is most painful about this subject is that Torah and Chassidus point to fundamental values, such as the midos of Ahavas Hashem, Yir’as Shomayim, Chassidus – as in lifnim mishuras hadin, etc. You will not succeed in selling me the bill of goods that the anti-Zionism issue is greater than any of these. So what we are seeing is the reversing of priorities, where this anti-Israel stuff is given enough weight as to make it part of chinuch, substituting for the churban Bais Hamikdosh, and our obligation to make Ahavas Hashem the basis of our existence.

    So I consider these people unfortunately sick, and pray for their refuah. But just as I do not do anything to support illness, neither physical or mental, I must decry the folly of this derech. I am neither pro- nor anti-Zionist. I will not exclude any of the 613 mitzvos, or anything else that is part of being a Torah true Jew because of this anti-Zionist rhetoric and nonsense. That’s where they are seriously ill.

    Yes, it is a concern. There is one big problem with all this. They are not really espousing the shittoh of Reb Yoelish ZT”L. And the saying goes, אן איינרעדעניש איז ערגער ווי א קרענק.

    in reply to: Calling cops on frum neighbor #1338052
    The little I know
    Participant

    I am getting really tired of all these worshippers of the issur of mesira. Not because I minimize it, but because it has become a subject of lay people basically paskening whatever they want based on the concept. And this is with minimal to zero knowledge of the real parameters of this issur. I would ask anyone who is mouthing this stuff to please stop accepting the street version of mesira, open a Shulchan Aruch, and seek the guidance of a posek who is versed in the subject to provide guidance. Meanwhile, there is an unfortunate amount of “pilpul shel level” in earlier comments.

    If people were only as careful to protect others from shame, and to promote Ahavas Hashem, we’d all be better off.

    in reply to: OTD KIDS ALSO HAVE FREE WILL. #1335743
    The little I know
    Participant

    To clarify just a bit, the drug using/OTD kid has some free will. However, he has the responsibility of having forfeited much of it by assuming an addiction. The others in the environment that affect the situation have presumably not lost any of their own bechirah.

    While I am not advocating absolving a drug user of his responsibility, I will also look to the broader picture for the other contributing factors.

    Meanwhile, the kid often gets into treatment, rehab, therapy, etc. The parents often participate in treatment and therapy. Yeshivos have hardly changed or been willing to look at themselves and their systems to make needed changes. That’s the ire of so many commenters.

    in reply to: OTD KIDS ALSO HAVE FREE WILL. #1335539
    The little I know
    Participant

    Haimy:

    You miss the point completely. Of course the drug using teen has personal responsibility. But the turn to drugs occurred in a context, and it is grossly ignorant to exclude this from any discussion. With all the blame we might heap on the parents, yeshivos, etc., the kid himself/herself is the one that needs to go to treatment/rehab. No one is forgetting that piece.

    However, the escapism we are observing is not just a bad kid doing bad things. These kids are not drop outs – they are “throw outs”. Whatever issues they began with, they were subjected to rejection, when we needed to work with them. Whether these issues were emotional, academic, behavioral, or whatever. We have a wealth of resources that can be utilized to help. But we have tended to watch these become cash cows, not helping services. The kid who refuses to dress appropriately is “bad”. NO! He is in pain. Why? I will never know until I connect. And most of us feel we will be somehow ashamed of associating with him, and avoid it to protect ourselves. All the while, the kid in pain suffers more.

    The suicides we watched in horror this year are not suicides, but murders. We, as a community, have failed them, and consistently at that. Don’t we wish to present HKB”H with a gift? How about bringing back a lost neshomoh?

    The very title of this post is sad. It implies that we throw the full responsibility of a kid going OTD on the kid himself, as if that whitewashes the rest of us. “Not my problem.” “It’s not us yeshivos – it’s the parents and family.” “It’s the yeshivos.” “It’s the bad friends.” This shifting of the responsibility is garden variety “blaming others”. How about if we just grow up a little, and look for ways to include these kids, welcome them, embrace them? How about if we worked hard to modify our presentation of Yiddishkeit so that they will see the beauty of it, not the stern, threatening G-d.

    This weeks parsha makes specific reference to Hashem’s strictness with us: כאשר ייסר איש את בנו ה’ אלקיך מיסרך. It is not the punishing G-d that is exacting revenge for violating His mitzvos, but the Loving Father that seeks to bring the child into the fold of shmiras mitzvos. Do we treat our youth as a loving father?

    No one is absolving the OTD kids of their responsibility. But we also cannot fault them for running away from us. We cannot simply put the blame on them. We are in denial, and that is healthy for no one.

    in reply to: Calling cops on frum neighbor #1335372
    The little I know
    Participant

    Question: Your home security system alerts you that a burglary is occurring. You can see in the camera that there is a frum boy/man you know ripping you off. Do you call your Rav, Shomrim, police? Do you run home and try and catch the ganiv yourself?

    in reply to: Tight-fitting clothing and tznius – the elephant in the room #1335371
    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd:

    The Gemora tells us that לצנות is always assur – with the exception of ליצנותא דע”ז. I am saying that the PC craze which has gripped our society is idolatry. It is routinely worshipped. It is worse in universities, media, government offices, and in agencies. When an ideology completely erases morality and a system of higher values, it becomes an idol. Sadly, the tentacles of this monster reach everywhere. It dictates that we look for something offensive as intended while no one possesses the skill of mind reading. And if I feel offended by you, I have the right to take revenge. This is idolatrous, making the ideology its own idol.

    I will mock this and make sure that I always think so lowly of it that I will never be tempted to embrace it for a second. If you do not like my mockery, you are free to ignore it. It is not casual, but clearly intended. Yes, doing so is both decent and smart. Disagree if you like.

    Back to the clothing. It is probably the case that clothing becomes too tight when the person’s size increases. I agree. I might not know if that article of apparel was worn previously or not (I do not keep track). I do refrain from commenting on people’s bodies – for tznius reasons. So if I am commenting on clothing, that’s all I mean. You may compile your Peirush Rashi on every sentence, but that does not make it my intended message, just your own interpretation.

    in reply to: Tight-fitting clothing and tznius – the elephant in the room #1335305
    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd:

    If I tell someone that their clothing is tight, I mean precisely that. No statement about their weight. They may choose to be offended, but I accept no such responsibility. I am of the opinion that this PC stuff belongs in the garbage.

    Your OP – cut and pasted: “Therefore, by saying that someone is not b’tznius because their clothing is too tight, you are calling them fat.” That is PC garbage. That prompted my comment.

    I am nowhere close to the liberal side at all. I mock it whenever I can. Perhaps our opinions are actually closer than the dialogue in the CR appears.

    in reply to: Tight-fitting clothing and tznius – the elephant in the room #1335257
    The little I know
    Participant

    RebYidd23:

    “Thought police”. Stop it! It’s horrible. I I tell someone (I would only say that to my daughter) their clothing is too tight, I do NOT mean to call them fat. And they would be bright enough to understand exactly what I said. It remains the choice of the listener to interpret the statement differently, and they thus have the option of feeling offended. But it is ludicrous to say that I offended them. That thinking is the PC garbage that afflicts our generation, and I refuse to engage in it just as I refuse to get high on weed, or drunk on liquor.

    A little maturity would do everyone a lot of good.

    in reply to: Calling cops on frum neighbor #1335232
    The little I know
    Participant

    Since the true situation is unknown, no one can make a definitive statement about whether there is danger or what it is. However, belief that there is danger is enough reason to take no chances, and make whatever reports are needed. I can’t tell if Shomrim is likely to be effective. Nor can we know that police are needed. But I would not take any chances. I’m not convinced that asking the Rov here is either required or useful. If anything is going on that requires police action, it would be something involving danger, and there is no question of the permissibility of reporting this to police. Worst would be the angst of cops coming to the door when nothing is happening. Tough.

    in reply to: In Defense of Smoking #1335113
    The little I know
    Participant

    The author has a point. Today, we reserve the right to castigate anyone that disagrees with us. And it is not dependent which side on an issue is moral or correct – just the numbers and the means to propagandize the position.

    Our society of today is afflicted with a serious disease that cannot be cured, only eradicated. It cannot even be remedied with partial success. It is the thinking that is called “political correctness” that is neither logical nor moral. Together with that mishigoss, we get “thought police”. If someone feels that what I did or thought makes him/her feel bad, than I am a target for attack. People lose jobs over this stupidity, and have been blamed for crimes they did not commit.

    For instance, SJW’s are obsessed with this stuff. Whites are automatically considered racist, and crimes against them are justified. Does that sound acceptable? Well, the MSM would have you believing that. Yes, Google used this approach to fire an employee. Democrats tout this garbage all the time. No, it will not mellow and become less virulent over time. It will gain strength like a hurricane, and do at least as much damage.

    Smoking is not the issue. It is the right to make an issue of thought, and criminalize that.

    P.S. Smoking is assur min haTorah. I am not ch”v being accepting of smoking at all. It should be completely banned and criminalized.

    in reply to: chasidish / litvish yeshivas #1334690
    The little I know
    Participant

    DY:

    Nice try. You are a historian. We are in the midst of observing these two mesoros merging. A few examples.

    * Just a single generation ago, an upsherin at age 3 was never found among the Litvishe community. Nor did boys wear payos. Only Roshei yeshivos wore beards. Colored shirts among baalei batim were the norm. Long malbushim and bend up hats were not for the average person. Today, these have all become the norm, to varying degrees.

    * Just a single generation ago, the chassidishe communities were not interested in chodosh/yoshon, and there were very few kollelim in the chassidishe community. Today, these are norms. Chassidishe girls are as likely to seek “learning boys”.

    There are still differences that are easily noted, but these are fading away. One can attend a chassidishe yeshiva, and hear as much about Reb Chaim Brisker as one hear about Chidushei Hari”m in Litvishe yeshivos. There remain levush differences, and the pronunciation of Hebrew is often different. But these have evolved much, and the process continues.

    Who would have dreamt just 30 years ago that a Litvishe yeshiva would make an issue of white shirts during the week?

    in reply to: chasidish / litvish yeshivas #1334565
    The little I know
    Participant

    DY:

    Your comment has not helped much. Now define these two mesoros.

    in reply to: chasidish / litvish yeshivas #1334440
    The little I know
    Participant

    There are way too many variables here that have no clear or standard definition.

    Precisely what is the definition of “Chassidish”, “Litvish”, “Good Yeshivos”? Start with that, then we readers can suggest responses.

    I will dare to say that the definitions to these terms have evolved over the past several decades, and some of the definitions and responses to this question will reflect the age of the responders.

    The little I know
    Participant

    Dr. Neuhoff:

    I appreciate your articulate statements about the true dynamic of Footsteps. I consider myself one of their mortal enemies, and I daven regularly for their demise. My label for this organization is that it is a missionary cult. And by its self-label as a neutral Jewish organization that aims to help, it is terribly misleading. We are usually prepared to some degree to cope with a Yetzer Horah that is tempting us with committing aveiros that are clearly labeled as such. When the temptation is more insidious, and it comes packaged as a positive thing that is healthy, even righteous, the power to overcome that needs to be far greater. There are reams of divrei mussar about the tricky Yetzer Horah, and how preemptive we need to be to combat this to victory. The advent of this evil, wicked missionary organization is a great nisayon for Klal Yisroel. As I stated in an earlier comment, these types of Yetzer Horah can win when we are internally weak, inadequately imbued with the midos of Ahavas Hashem and Yir’as Hashem. The external trappings of levush are not worth much in this battle, since the weapons are not repelled by clothing or appearance. The hearts need strength. Our generation needs much healing in this area.

    Yasher Koach for your comments on this.

    in reply to: NY Senator Gilibrand BAD for Israel #1331389
    The little I know
    Participant

    She needs to be voted out. Same for Schumer. They are nothing but Democrat party hacks, have no mind of their own, and have views that are downright immoral if not completely pediatric.

    The little I know
    Participant

    mw13:

    Kol hakavod to Rav Yitzchok Fingerer and BJX. They do fabulous kiruv work. Expecting them to succeed in combating Footsteps is like matching an ant to a Sherman tank. We need to understand a bit more about what that wicked organization is, how they work, and who is affected by it.

    It looks for adults, not just teens. It is well schooled in how missionaries work, and they have used a Yiddishe kopp to develop ways of snaring our own right from under our eyes. The sales pitch is about how they catch Chassidishe souls who are dropping out, and offer them training, jobs, GED, social supports, etc. While they do some of this access, it is secondary to their real goal. They are h*ll bent on taking as many neshamos away from Yiddishkeit, and accomplish this by creating a dependency for these resources. They indoctrinate against Torah and mitzvos, teaching their prey to look at the steps of throwing away Yiddishkeit and heritage as honorable achievements. They are insidious and parasitic.

    The real antidote for this poison is simchas hachaim within the fold of Yiddishkeit. It may truly be secondary what malbush someone wears, with all due respect to family minhagim. But if our young people lose passion for Torah and Mitzvos, they are easy prey for these predators.

    Now comes the hard question. What are we, as a community, having our leaders, yeshivos, and schools, doing to make being a frum Yid something inherently gratifying? Do we demonstrate a feeling of accomplishment in having davened in the morning, or are we thrilled to be done with it so that we can move on to our other activities of the day? Do we enjoy learning, or has it been diverted into a competitive exercise (under the mistakenly interpreted קנאת סופרים? Are we busy looking to be the biggest tzaddik, the best bochur in yeshiva, the worthy recipient of kavod, getting the last word in on a debate in the CR, fame or fortune?

    If we made our mission for our young generation to insure their experience of Torah and Mitzvos was precious and enjoyable, we would have little to no loss to missionaries like Footsteps. But, alas, we are not fulfilling ואהבת את ה’ אלקיך, in which we are obligated to achieve שתהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך. There is occasional lip service to Ahavas Hashem. But where is the action? If we cannot see the impact, then we are not doing the job.

    It would be a lovely idea to make the approaching Elul into a month of seeking Ahavas Hashem. Teshuvah becomes much easier.

    The little I know
    Participant

    ubiquitin:

    You wrote: “So if a chassid is going to throw away his upbringing, ie go to college, what is the point in still keeping some restrictions, he isnt going to be Religous anyway, (since he is going to college, maybe not wearing a shtreimel) he may as well go all the way.”

    I must take serious issue. I am fully aware that going to college has its risks, and that many advise against it. However, there are B”H many today who have handled going through college with advanced degrees, and remain as kadosh and tahor as those who work as klai kodesh. I include fields of law, medicine, psychology, social work, computers, business, etc. Without a doubt, you will find rotten apples in those barrels, but they are to be found in groups of people who function within the many rabbinical positions as well. There are quite many who don the shtreimel who have college education, and serve Klal Yisroel with honor and dignity. Pursuing a career does NOT translate into “throwing away his upbringing” anymore than getting training as an accountant means eating chazzer on Yom Kippur. When we give our youth the message that doing anything besides schnorring off others to sit in kollel forever is abandoning one’s heritage, we create a mess. The message is clearly untrue, and the damage is not done by the person seeking a career, but by misguided, misleading fools.

    I am not pushing college education on anyone. You need it for the careers I referenced above. And the decision to pursue such careers requires guidance and commitment, both to Torah and to the field of study. It also requires a Rebbe to serve as a guide to help maintain one’s heritage, and the constant exposure to kedusha. But such paths do NOT take someone away from Yiddishkeit, unless these misleading advisers push them away.

    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    As usual, your blinders are glued on. Well, take them off.

    Firstly, who would you suggest as Daas Torah for how to be mechanech my children at home?

    Secondly, the children who have zero “sipuk” within the confines of Torah and Mitzvos are the ones who look elsewhere. Those kids are not snared by Footsteps, nor the internet, nor drugs, or any of the other scourges out there. The ones lacking the anchor in Torah are aimlessly wandering in search of something. They cannot settle on “sipuk”, because it does not exist elsewhere. So they opt for the gamut of worldly, physical pleasures. They go seeking for these. They have names. Drugs, movies, friendships that are worthy of disapproval, internet, Footsteps, and other such things. Happy kids do not shop elsewhere for nonsense, only empty kids who find no meaning in Yiddishkeit.

    It’s not about Daas Torah or daas baalei batim.

    What do you provide your own children?

    The little I know
    Participant

    Haimy:

    In the current system, Chassidish and Yeshivish, the emphasis has swayed in favor of the external trappings of Yiddishkeit, with markedly little attention to Emunoh, Ahavas Hashem, Yir’as Hashem, Avodas Hashem, etc. In concert with that, our children are not guided or taught to love Torah and Mitzvos. If this attraction is absent, then our children go through their youthful years being guided to robotically fulfill their mandates of going to yeshiva, shul, etc. We fail to provide an adequate role model for them. It’s not the talking during davening, but the diversion of attention from the precious tefiloh to the mundane issues of the idle chatter. Giving mussar on the talking issue misses the greater problem of viewing tefiloh as a necessary obstacle to overcome so as to continue on with one’s day. You get the gist.

    It may be useful to create more safety nets to catch those who are disillusioned. But it fails to repair the ho-hum attitude about being a Yid, gifted with the Torah and 613 paths to become closer to HKB”H, with the opportunity to do with the continuing heritage from our Avos, Rebbeim, with HKB”H cheering us every step of the way.

    While I daven for the complete failure of the worst missionary organization to affect Klal Yisroel, known as Footsteps, I wish for our ship to become puncture proof, not patched from leaking. We have rendered our community holey, instead of holy. טעמו וראו כי טוב ה. A true Torah lifestyle is great, and that cannot be a message of mussar, but an inviting message of hope. We have created a serious attitude problem. Just making replacement safety nets misses the real issue.

    in reply to: ANOTHER shocking LETTER published IN the VOICE of LAKEWOOD #1325834
    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    You wrote: “To claim there is consensus among today’s Gedolim to ignore the Shulchan Aruch regarding hitting children is absolutely false. To claim there aren’t Gedolim today who fully observe and pasken in accordance with Tanach and the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch for parents and rebbeim to use corporal discipline with children is not only false but even against what most Gedolim today pasken as.”

    This comment of yours is hideous and completely disgraceful. There is no halacha that one must hit a child. Period. That is not chinuch, and has never been chinuch. To cite these blasphemous words in the name of Tanach, Shulchan Aruch, or Poskim is a horrible crime. These are the words of שונאי ישראל who engage in the practice of עושה מעשה זמרי ומבקש שכר בפינחס.

    There is a last resort that is awarded to mechanchim, both parents and those in school, to use a שבט to modify behavior. But controlling behavior is not chinuch, and has no role in education. As one commenter here noted, it created fear, but not a drop of Ahavas Hatorah. That is NOT consistent with Tanach, Shulchan Aruch, or any Poskim. Again, stop manipulating these sources of Torah to further your agenda that justifies and glorifies brutality and abuse.

    The only place in chinuch for discipline is its use to teach, not to control. Thankfully, the readers of this thread are onto you, and fully aware that Torah never, ever sanctions the blubber you spew. We are also aware of the many reputable sources of guidance from those who know, NONE of whom espouse the strong arm tactics you claim are holy. Shame on you. Go troll somewhere else, and spit your words of blasphemy where Yidden will not be exposed to them.

    in reply to: ANOTHER shocking LETTER published IN the VOICE of LAKEWOOD #1325729
    The little I know
    Participant

    I have noted this before, and another repetition of this is warranted. There are now many seforim on the subject of chinuch, and the mechabrim are noted in having been or still being recognized as gedolei Yisroel, and others are likutim from well recognized talmidei chachomim. To cite Tanach or Shulchan Aruch without including the manner in which today’s Gedolim explain the relevance to today is dishonest, both intellectually and spiritually.

    There is considerable discussion about use of any form of negative physical force. No one says it is never permitted, but it is fairly clear that there are many, many limitations on how, when, and under what circumstances it can be used. A rebbi who delivers a smack out of anger is clearly in violation. Whether a talmid deserved it is not relevant. I interacted once with a menahel whose staff member smacked a talmid multiple times in a manner that was as much a physical assault as it was shaming. The menahel was busy defending this rebbi, until I read verbatim a direct quote from the Brisker Rov ZT”L, wherein he stated that the first potch can sometimes, and under specific conditions be permitted. Anything more than that was an absolute issur “min haTorah”. Needless to say, that menahel claimed to have more knowledge in chinuch than the Brisker Rov. Our call ended there.

    in reply to: ANOTHER shocking LETTER published IN the VOICE of LAKEWOOD #1325275
    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    Here you go again. You paskened, “Apparently the corporal discipline worked on all of you. Tanach states and Shulchan Aruch paskens that corporal discipline must be used on children.”

    That is not just a complete misrepresentation, but it is seriously flawed and misleading. There is an oft quoted posuk, which almost every mechanech cites – but does not know the second half of the posuk.

    חושך שבטו שונא בנו.

    This is loosely translated as spare the rod – spoil the child.

    The second half of the posuk reads:

    ואוהבו שחרו מוסר.

    There needs to be a last resort of discipline to control a child. But discipline does not teach, it controls. Inasmuch as a yeshiva has a mission to educate, the rod has its proper location hanging in a closet, and should not be used very much. The mechanech that believes he can teach by hitting is neither a mechanech, nor is he a suitable role model for תינוקות של בית רבן. He needs a different career. A true mechanech has multiple other tools to use that do not injure, hurt, embarrass, or otherwise have lasting negative effects. If a rebbi cannot produce a listening attentive child, he has failed to succeed, and he needs the negative consequences.

    Lastly, the choice of interventions, with full recognition of Shulchan Aruch, is dependent on the outcome. If the result of hitting a talmid, even with justifiable excuse, will result in continued disobedience, including going OTD, then using that method is not chinuch, and is pure unadulterated assault. Shulchan Aruch discusses the sugya of חובל בחבירו. Check that one out.

    The little I know
    Participant

    So someone interviews a complete imbecile about a subject, and then bothers to disagree with him? I am appalled that anyone cares what this fool says. Sure, he’s entitled to his opinion. So are millions of others, even me. What makes his opinion worthy of discussion?

    This is a sign of the times. The internet lends an air of authority to statements from those least qualified to make them. Such a shame that our own media outlets give any time and bandwidth to this.

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