The little I know

GH:

I agree that it is imperative that students adhere to the rules of the yeshiva. Encouraging rebellion is never positive. But the real issue here is different. That is, should the yeshiva be imposing these rules on their students? The fact is that they can make any rules they want, even if these rules make no sense. Any store can make its own rules, as it is a private enterprise.

But we would hope that our yeshivos are public entities, and are here to advance the continuity of Torah, thus performing a vital public service. If so, the rules must categorically be for the benefit of the students. So, pick the rule, and examine whether it serves the student, assisting in growth, education, or character refinement. If not, it is likely in place to enhance the image or reputation of the yeshiva, its hanhala, or to feed someone’s ego. The latter is shameful, and such policies and rules should never be made in the first place. I still think that compliance is important, but it is a few levels below stupid to think that is more important than helping every single talmid develop a connection to HKB”H and a passion to grow in Torah and Mitzvos.

Lastly, discipline that is common in many yeshivos today (there has been noteworthy improvement here, but nowhere near enough) is via consequences and punishment, which is distancing and potentially destructive. The true discipline that is critical to chinuch is guidance. As I have repeated so many times in the CR, revisit the many seforim from Gedolei Yisroel on chinuch. I am only expressing their agenda, based purely on Torah.

A friend told me about a rebbe he had that walked into class, and almost every bochur was wearing a rather small yarmulka. One of those bochurim had parents who had traveled to Israel, and brought back this package of kipot for their son and his entire class. The rebbe sat down, took out a dime from his pocket, gazed back and forth at the coin and yarmulkas. The bochurim all changed to their regular yarmulkas. Not a word spoken. No one embarrassed. No discipline – just simple, basic education.

Any rebbeim like this left? Or are we too busy legislating, imposing, and focused on control?

LU: You wrote: “Yes, technology is causing the shidduch crisis. If it weren’t for technology, people wouldn’t be able to post narishkeit about the shidduch crisis in the CR.”

This is absolutely brilliant! I agree.

We have several problems here. Firstly, is there a shidduch crisis? It seems to me to resemble the discussion about climate change. You first decide if you want this to be a problem, then get enough people to buy into it, then fashion the science and scientists around it. There have been some rather educated discussions, with analysis of data. Not terribly scientific, but a good try. Even that yields no real conclusion. All we really know is that specific singles are struggling to find their shidduch.

Secondly, the trend seems to be to place the technology, internet, smartphones, etc. as the universal cause for problems. This happens to make very little sense. It is like blaming the Vietnam War on technology. It might sound good. But whatever “shidduch crisis” is believed to exist, it predated technology by many years.

Like everything else, technology is widely used, and some aspects of it can easily contribute to various problems. Can one blame lashon horah on social media? I wouldn’t doubt the contributions to LH by social media. But the problem existed eons ago. Schmutz existed as far back as one can study history. We all know what the oldest profession was. The internet facilitated matters, and greatly reduced effort needed to do these aveiros. Did technology cause it? Bupkis!

Too much noise.

The smartphone isn’t the problem. It is the user. (Guns don’t kill, people kill.) The ease of getting the wrong place on the internet renders it a significant risk. And that risk needs to be addressed. The level at which it needs to be approached may not be universal.

I strongly suggest that the discussion leave alone the incredible technology that the smartphone offers. It can be harnessed and directed to perform much useful, safe, and kosher service. The real matter at hand is the internet access. That, if unfettered and unfiltered, exposes the user to great risk. The otherwise frum, thoroughly observant person can have a normal moment of weakness, and venture to where he/she doesn’t belong. The yetzer horah is content to wait for this, much as a hungry lion waits for the right moment to attack.

The phone with other capabilities is not bad, dangerous, or risky. Banning it is a lame effort at trying to control others, and only serves to limit the kosher use of technology. Meanwhile, filtering technology has progressed greatly, and a smartphone with many valuable uses can have its browser blocked, and all its activity filtered. It is foolish to ban such a phone any better than to ban walking down the street because someone immodestly dressed might walk that same block.

To those obsessed with the divorce rate, and the belief that there is any segment of the Torah observant community that has a greater or lesser percentage of failed marriages:

There is probably no feasible way to study this scientifically. But there are anecdotal reports that are enough to give us a good idea.

There are several types of people involved directly in gittin. These include dayanim, toanim, sofrim, matrimonial lawyers, mediators, and various therapists and counselors. Ask them if they are busy. I did. They are very busy.

Our population has grown, so more gittin does not imply that the “rate” is increasing. But it does imply a reasonable chance that almost everyone knows someone who is divorced.

Today’s world is different. Our young people are apt to feel entitled, and preparation for marriage has not kept pace. Perhaps the damaging role of the Internet is the ease of communicating with others, getting to feel supported in the efforts to leave a marriage. Accessing services is also easier.

Is the rate rising? I have no reason to believe that. I bet it fluctuates, and there could be an upticking of the numbers. But there is a larger population, and even the same old rate would mean higher numbers.

I would point out a few issues, probably deserving of another thread, that are significant underlying factors in current divorces.

One – withholding or secret keeping of information prior to a shidduch. There are young people with various issues, mental illness, etc. whose parents do not disclose that information prior to the shidduch. The discovery after the fact is quite shocking, and some of these issues are interferences in conducting a normal home. Gedolim are not consistent in when to disclose, but I have yet to encounter anyone that says to not disclose at all prior to the completion of a shidduch. yes, Chassidishe, Litvishe, and Yeshivishe communities are equal on this.

Two – getting married for the wrong reason. Some newlyweds that are in trouble will share that they got married because their friends were all getting married. There is not an ounce of saichel to this. If your friend is hungry, do you go to eat?

Three – poor preparation. So many couples today have no clue what marriage means. No idea how to communicate. No idea how to be respectful of the other, the in-law family, the other’s choices of career, learning, and personal choices. Parental role models are often inadequate, and the teaching by chosson and kallah teachers (which has overall improved over the years) is still woefully inadequate.

Four – lack of skills. How many young marrieds have a clue how to manage a budget? Do they know how to juggle the responsibilities between the religious and the mundane? How aware are they that the squeezing of one’s hands by davening is unrelated to kavana, which is a spiritual connection? Do they know how to instill true ruchniyos in their home, or are they obsessed with chumros?

Five – living for others. We have never been as preoccupied with image as in our generation. We need x because someone else has it. We are busy with what others think of us. We must appear perfect for the pictures. Societal recognition has surpassed in importance what we want HKB”H to think of us, and what we think of ourselves and each other.

Six – we have become overly shallow. The labels we apply to things and people are not just inaccurate (we can’t really know all we think we know) but actually serve to limit our experience. One facet of this is the midoh to be “dan lekaf zechus”, which is so often trashed in the labeling process. We generalize way too often. We struggle to find the good in others or in events. A classic example is getting stuck in traffic, when we later discover that had we been somewhere earlier, we could have been in an accident.

Seven – poor prioritization, sometimes horrific. We suffer from a sense of priorities that is sometimes so thwarted that it is senseless and even dangerous. Do we consider or reject a shidduch based on appearance, levush, or pedigree? This subject is really a long one, and deserves its own forum.

I could go one and on, but this sampling is a start. What is critical is that these issues are equal opportunity. Large families do not suffer from worse marriages or more divorces. There are factors that distinguish the happy from the miserable, but Chassidish versus Litvish versus Yeshivish are not among them.

Joseph wrote: “GH: Men are created by design from our Creator to go outside in the world whereas women are created by our Creator to mostly be at home and not outside in the wide world.”

RebYidd23 wrote: “Gadolhadorah, women are more susceptible to the toxic ideology of feminism that will tell them to pursue a career instead of children.”

There is something to these responses. כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה is not a flowery, social nicety, but a true guide for a spiritual life based on the fulfillment of one’s תפקיד for being sent to reside in this world. But getting carried away with this to the extreme is equally problematic. There have always been women who fulfilled a position for the Klal that was not just crucial, but praised by the Torah. We can see open reference to מרים הנביאה, רבקה אמנו, רחל אמנו, דבורה הנביאה, and אסתר המלכה. Each of these had specific reasons to do things outside the home when it was the proper time. Neither you nor I are the ones to say whether any particular girl belongs in the home or doing something that includes walking out of her home.

There is a reality here. Women will leave the four walls of their home to shop, and many to work. The current zeitgeist is that women provide the income so that their husbands can stay glued to their seat in kollel. While I am not a proponent of this indiscriminate filling of kollelim, the reality is that the dependency (for better or worse) on women’s working is here to stay. If you advocate that women should not have careers, prepare to battle the kollel system. I wish I could reduce kollel lifestyle by a huge percent, but am aware that this animal is greater than my ability to control it.

Lastly, the pursuit of career is not in lieu of children. Such an accusation is baseless. I know many families in which the wife/mother works and raises children, even large families. You sound as if you know the fertility issues of career women, and I demand you prove this if you want to continue the discussion with that premise.

What is toxic about feminism is that it ignores the G-d created differences between men and women. That some women work is not feminism. It is about necessity.

Joseph:

Just because something is permitted by American Law does not mean is the right thing or a good thing to do. We have a rule of דינא דמלכותא דינא, but that does not mean that we can venture into the designated gender specific bathroom just because we feel (fe)male that day. But it is recognized under American law!

The issue here is zealotry. We need major strong leadership to undertake that. There have certainly been such leaders around. Although we have failed to find anyone with the appropriate “plaitzes” for quite some time. There is unquestionably a chilul Hashem factor to address, besides chilul Shabbos. There is also a capital issue of whether this move is more important than staying home and learning. It is also debatable whether this drama helps the situation. Sure, it draws attention. But that does not solve the problem at all. There are hundreds of other cell phone stores, and one can easily buy phones and plans online without entering the brick and mortar establishment. Have we accomplished anything by this circus?

I would have been satisfied to see that the owner of the store should be ordered by Rabbonim to sell only kosher or filtered phones to his Jewish customers. This high profile action will not limit access to smartphones. It will only embarrass the owner of the store, and probably cause him other hardships. Is that what we should be doing? During Elul?

Joseph:

At the neshomoh level, a Yid who is not frum is no different from one who is. At that level, every single neshomoh is a child of HKB”H, as the Gemora states clearly (בבא בתרא דף י’ ע”א) that whether we are fulfilling Ratzon Hashem or not, בין כך ובין כך איקרי בנים. While I do not need to consider the Yid who is not keeping mitzvos a suitable shidduch for my child, I have no authority to address the connection he has to HKB”H. That matter is purely בין אדם למקום, and that is territory where I cannot trespass.

For that matter, the seforim tell us that teshuvah for anything is possible. However, someone else’s teshuvah is not accessible to me. I cannot base anything I do on it, and I cannot ever really know what is going on in that realm. If the OP’s question is otherwise expressed as: If I commit a major theft of enormous sums of money, which I will never be able to compensate, what teshuvah can I do? Valid question, since we are told that a prerequisite for teshuvah for גנבה or גזלה is the repayment. If the question is worrying about Madoff, or any other such individual who embezzled major monies, I suggest we redirect. If my personal חשבון הנפש is meaningful at all, I have enough work to do on myself, and have no business minding someone else’s חשבון הנפש.

Joseph:

You wrote; “A side effect of this dynamic is that schools outside of Lakewood are shrinking as a result of young couples and families moving out to Lakewood.”

That is not the case at all. I challenge you to name a single yeshiva or girls school that is losing students due to the mobility to Lakewood. It is true that the cramming of students in the schools in the New York area is a contributing factor to families looking to live elsewhere, and Lakewood is hot right now. But there are no yeshivos suffering from enrollment drop in NY.

There are enough babies born in Lakewood every year to warrant the opening of a new school. The influx of young couples places an added burden. Yeshivos in NY are not hurting for applicants, and there are plenty of both boys and girls that will experience difficulty with acceptance in yeshivos this coming school year. Yes, there are other issues that are fodder for debate in the CR, such as rejections due to finances, the arbitrary rules of parents’ dress codes, etc. But space is an issue, and a very legitimate one. You cannot put 35 students in a class where the room size and the rebbe are capable of 25.

There is definition needed here, as there may be varied perceptions of what is meant by תלמיד חכם. Until that is established, no one here can understand the other.

Define please.

Joseph:

For your thrill, just mosey over to your Rov this week, and ask him what you should do when you encounter a sofek sakanah? Should you then come ask the shailoh or should you take safety related action? Then post his response here please.

One who acts for safety, even in the case of sofek is exempt from all the halachos you push – yuour personal agenda.

Health:

I seriously doubt that the sheer decibel level of the neighbors home was distressing to where some guidance was sought (not that posting in the CR is the equivalent of asking a shailoh). If there was the belief that there was a chance of the noise indicating trouble, there is good reason to reach out to the appropriate first responders for the emergency. There are too many variables to know whether this is Hatzoloh, Shomrim, Chaveirim, Shmira, police, EMS, or fire department. What is clear is that if this is the issue, running to find your Rov at that point is neither required by halacha, nor is it responsible. Picture someone drowning. Should you try to rescue, or should you ask a shailoh? The latter is so senseless that it is offensive to make this sound like a holy thing to do.

RebYidd23:

Relief Resources makes referrals to mental health professionals and facilities. They are constantly updating their resources, vetting every one to the best they can. They are the best stop when looking for the best professionals in the many niches of the field. What I do not know is whether they are equipped with the staff to educate the yeshivos and their faculties to be better observers of mental health issues. If yes, kol hakavod. But there are many other avenues to connect mental health professionals with yeshivos. I would hope that these are being utilized.

apushatayid:

I guess your observation about being the month for chinuch bashing is correct. In reality, chinuch, with its many serious problems, has many successes and achievements. These are not fodder for commenting on the web. Maybe there should be a showcase for hakoras hatov to those stellar mechanchim who do their jobs well. This tends to happen posthumously, such as the recent petira of Rav Aharon Brofman ZT”L, someone I personally knew to be a gift to the field of chinuch, and now a tragic loss to the entire chinuch world.

What makes chinuch bashing so exciting is that there is enough to go around, to resounding denial of the chinuch field that believes that only parents and kids make mistakes. When you hear of a mechanech admitting a mistake, it is newsworthy. Yes, it does sometimes happen, and these individuals are the real superstars of the field.

The problem is actually greater than this instance demonstrates. Nearly all observed behavior in yeshiva is addressed in a disciplinary way. There is definitely a place for discipline. But a huge portion of the observed behaviors are problem issues that individuals experience, and these need to be healed, not punished. So much of what prompts punishment is really a child’s cry for help. Sensitive mechanchim know exactly what I mean. The run-of-the-mill mechanchim, who entered the field because they needed a job and were not qualified for anything else (including chinuch) tend to view their biggest challenge as classroom management, not teaching. And the most direct way to control a class is with reward and punishment (the latter far more often). It doesn’t teach anything, but makes the classroom less chaotic, and easier to manage.

Proper training for mechanchim at all levels would include some introduction to mental health. They are not required to become expert diagnosticians, and certainly not therapists. But they should recognize flags and know how to raise issues for referral or professional evaluation. And this possibility always needs to be considered before punishment or shaming. Accusations, if false, and terribly damaging.

What would have likely happened if the Mashgiach or the rebbe would have looked to be mekarev the bochur? It might have failed, since it was a clinical depression, but the damage of being considered a porek ohl would have been forestalled.

I am getting really tired of all these worshippers of the issur of mesira. Not because I minimize it, but because it has become a subject of lay people basically paskening whatever they want based on the concept. And this is with minimal to zero knowledge of the real parameters of this issur. I would ask anyone who is mouthing this stuff to please stop accepting the street version of mesira, open a Shulchan Aruch, and seek the guidance of a posek who is versed in the subject to provide guidance. Meanwhile, there is an unfortunate amount of “pilpul shel level” in earlier comments.

If people were only as careful to protect others from shame, and to promote Ahavas Hashem, we’d all be better off.

Haimy:

You miss the point completely. Of course the drug using teen has personal responsibility. But the turn to drugs occurred in a context, and it is grossly ignorant to exclude this from any discussion. With all the blame we might heap on the parents, yeshivos, etc., the kid himself/herself is the one that needs to go to treatment/rehab. No one is forgetting that piece.

However, the escapism we are observing is not just a bad kid doing bad things. These kids are not drop outs – they are “throw outs”. Whatever issues they began with, they were subjected to rejection, when we needed to work with them. Whether these issues were emotional, academic, behavioral, or whatever. We have a wealth of resources that can be utilized to help. But we have tended to watch these become cash cows, not helping services. The kid who refuses to dress appropriately is “bad”. NO! He is in pain. Why? I will never know until I connect. And most of us feel we will be somehow ashamed of associating with him, and avoid it to protect ourselves. All the while, the kid in pain suffers more.

The suicides we watched in horror this year are not suicides, but murders. We, as a community, have failed them, and consistently at that. Don’t we wish to present HKB”H with a gift? How about bringing back a lost neshomoh?

The very title of this post is sad. It implies that we throw the full responsibility of a kid going OTD on the kid himself, as if that whitewashes the rest of us. “Not my problem.” “It’s not us yeshivos – it’s the parents and family.” “It’s the yeshivos.” “It’s the bad friends.” This shifting of the responsibility is garden variety “blaming others”. How about if we just grow up a little, and look for ways to include these kids, welcome them, embrace them? How about if we worked hard to modify our presentation of Yiddishkeit so that they will see the beauty of it, not the stern, threatening G-d.

This weeks parsha makes specific reference to Hashem’s strictness with us: כאשר ייסר איש את בנו ה’ אלקיך מיסרך. It is not the punishing G-d that is exacting revenge for violating His mitzvos, but the Loving Father that seeks to bring the child into the fold of shmiras mitzvos. Do we treat our youth as a loving father?

No one is absolving the OTD kids of their responsibility. But we also cannot fault them for running away from us. We cannot simply put the blame on them. We are in denial, and that is healthy for no one.

RebYidd:

The Gemora tells us that לצנות is always assur – with the exception of ליצנותא דע”ז. I am saying that the PC craze which has gripped our society is idolatry. It is routinely worshipped. It is worse in universities, media, government offices, and in agencies. When an ideology completely erases morality and a system of higher values, it becomes an idol. Sadly, the tentacles of this monster reach everywhere. It dictates that we look for something offensive as intended while no one possesses the skill of mind reading. And if I feel offended by you, I have the right to take revenge. This is idolatrous, making the ideology its own idol.

I will mock this and make sure that I always think so lowly of it that I will never be tempted to embrace it for a second. If you do not like my mockery, you are free to ignore it. It is not casual, but clearly intended. Yes, doing so is both decent and smart. Disagree if you like.

Back to the clothing. It is probably the case that clothing becomes too tight when the person’s size increases. I agree. I might not know if that article of apparel was worn previously or not (I do not keep track). I do refrain from commenting on people’s bodies – for tznius reasons. So if I am commenting on clothing, that’s all I mean. You may compile your Peirush Rashi on every sentence, but that does not make it my intended message, just your own interpretation.

RebYidd23:

“Thought police”. Stop it! It’s horrible. I I tell someone (I would only say that to my daughter) their clothing is too tight, I do NOT mean to call them fat. And they would be bright enough to understand exactly what I said. It remains the choice of the listener to interpret the statement differently, and they thus have the option of feeling offended. But it is ludicrous to say that I offended them. That thinking is the PC garbage that afflicts our generation, and I refuse to engage in it just as I refuse to get high on weed, or drunk on liquor.

A little maturity would do everyone a lot of good.

The author has a point. Today, we reserve the right to castigate anyone that disagrees with us. And it is not dependent which side on an issue is moral or correct – just the numbers and the means to propagandize the position.

Our society of today is afflicted with a serious disease that cannot be cured, only eradicated. It cannot even be remedied with partial success. It is the thinking that is called “political correctness” that is neither logical nor moral. Together with that mishigoss, we get “thought police”. If someone feels that what I did or thought makes him/her feel bad, than I am a target for attack. People lose jobs over this stupidity, and have been blamed for crimes they did not commit.

For instance, SJW’s are obsessed with this stuff. Whites are automatically considered racist, and crimes against them are justified. Does that sound acceptable? Well, the MSM would have you believing that. Yes, Google used this approach to fire an employee. Democrats tout this garbage all the time. No, it will not mellow and become less virulent over time. It will gain strength like a hurricane, and do at least as much damage.

Smoking is not the issue. It is the right to make an issue of thought, and criminalize that.

P.S. Smoking is assur min haTorah. I am not ch”v being accepting of smoking at all. It should be completely banned and criminalized.

DY:

Your comment has not helped much. Now define these two mesoros.

Dr. Neuhoff:

I appreciate your articulate statements about the true dynamic of Footsteps. I consider myself one of their mortal enemies, and I daven regularly for their demise. My label for this organization is that it is a missionary cult. And by its self-label as a neutral Jewish organization that aims to help, it is terribly misleading. We are usually prepared to some degree to cope with a Yetzer Horah that is tempting us with committing aveiros that are clearly labeled as such. When the temptation is more insidious, and it comes packaged as a positive thing that is healthy, even righteous, the power to overcome that needs to be far greater. There are reams of divrei mussar about the tricky Yetzer Horah, and how preemptive we need to be to combat this to victory. The advent of this evil, wicked missionary organization is a great nisayon for Klal Yisroel. As I stated in an earlier comment, these types of Yetzer Horah can win when we are internally weak, inadequately imbued with the midos of Ahavas Hashem and Yir’as Hashem. The external trappings of levush are not worth much in this battle, since the weapons are not repelled by clothing or appearance. The hearts need strength. Our generation needs much healing in this area.

Yasher Koach for your comments on this.

mw13:

Kol hakavod to Rav Yitzchok Fingerer and BJX. They do fabulous kiruv work. Expecting them to succeed in combating Footsteps is like matching an ant to a Sherman tank. We need to understand a bit more about what that wicked organization is, how they work, and who is affected by it.

It looks for adults, not just teens. It is well schooled in how missionaries work, and they have used a Yiddishe kopp to develop ways of snaring our own right from under our eyes. The sales pitch is about how they catch Chassidishe souls who are dropping out, and offer them training, jobs, GED, social supports, etc. While they do some of this access, it is secondary to their real goal. They are h*ll bent on taking as many neshamos away from Yiddishkeit, and accomplish this by creating a dependency for these resources. They indoctrinate against Torah and mitzvos, teaching their prey to look at the steps of throwing away Yiddishkeit and heritage as honorable achievements. They are insidious and parasitic.

The real antidote for this poison is simchas hachaim within the fold of Yiddishkeit. It may truly be secondary what malbush someone wears, with all due respect to family minhagim. But if our young people lose passion for Torah and Mitzvos, they are easy prey for these predators.

Now comes the hard question. What are we, as a community, having our leaders, yeshivos, and schools, doing to make being a frum Yid something inherently gratifying? Do we demonstrate a feeling of accomplishment in having davened in the morning, or are we thrilled to be done with it so that we can move on to our other activities of the day? Do we enjoy learning, or has it been diverted into a competitive exercise (under the mistakenly interpreted קנאת סופרים? Are we busy looking to be the biggest tzaddik, the best bochur in yeshiva, the worthy recipient of kavod, getting the last word in on a debate in the CR, fame or fortune?

If we made our mission for our young generation to insure their experience of Torah and Mitzvos was precious and enjoyable, we would have little to no loss to missionaries like Footsteps. But, alas, we are not fulfilling ואהבת את ה’ אלקיך, in which we are obligated to achieve שתהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך. There is occasional lip service to Ahavas Hashem. But where is the action? If we cannot see the impact, then we are not doing the job.

It would be a lovely idea to make the approaching Elul into a month of seeking Ahavas Hashem. Teshuvah becomes much easier.

Joseph:

As usual, your blinders are glued on. Well, take them off.

Firstly, who would you suggest as Daas Torah for how to be mechanech my children at home?

Secondly, the children who have zero “sipuk” within the confines of Torah and Mitzvos are the ones who look elsewhere. Those kids are not snared by Footsteps, nor the internet, nor drugs, or any of the other scourges out there. The ones lacking the anchor in Torah are aimlessly wandering in search of something. They cannot settle on “sipuk”, because it does not exist elsewhere. So they opt for the gamut of worldly, physical pleasures. They go seeking for these. They have names. Drugs, movies, friendships that are worthy of disapproval, internet, Footsteps, and other such things. Happy kids do not shop elsewhere for nonsense, only empty kids who find no meaning in Yiddishkeit.

It’s not about Daas Torah or daas baalei batim.

What do you provide your own children?

Joseph:

You wrote: “To claim there is consensus among today’s Gedolim to ignore the Shulchan Aruch regarding hitting children is absolutely false. To claim there aren’t Gedolim today who fully observe and pasken in accordance with Tanach and the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch for parents and rebbeim to use corporal discipline with children is not only false but even against what most Gedolim today pasken as.”

This comment of yours is hideous and completely disgraceful. There is no halacha that one must hit a child. Period. That is not chinuch, and has never been chinuch. To cite these blasphemous words in the name of Tanach, Shulchan Aruch, or Poskim is a horrible crime. These are the words of שונאי ישראל who engage in the practice of עושה מעשה זמרי ומבקש שכר בפינחס.

There is a last resort that is awarded to mechanchim, both parents and those in school, to use a שבט to modify behavior. But controlling behavior is not chinuch, and has no role in education. As one commenter here noted, it created fear, but not a drop of Ahavas Hatorah. That is NOT consistent with Tanach, Shulchan Aruch, or any Poskim. Again, stop manipulating these sources of Torah to further your agenda that justifies and glorifies brutality and abuse.

The only place in chinuch for discipline is its use to teach, not to control. Thankfully, the readers of this thread are onto you, and fully aware that Torah never, ever sanctions the blubber you spew. We are also aware of the many reputable sources of guidance from those who know, NONE of whom espouse the strong arm tactics you claim are holy. Shame on you. Go troll somewhere else, and spit your words of blasphemy where Yidden will not be exposed to them.

Joseph:

Here you go again. You paskened, “Apparently the corporal discipline worked on all of you. Tanach states and Shulchan Aruch paskens that corporal discipline must be used on children.”

That is not just a complete misrepresentation, but it is seriously flawed and misleading. There is an oft quoted posuk, which almost every mechanech cites – but does not know the second half of the posuk.

חושך שבטו שונא בנו.

This is loosely translated as spare the rod – spoil the child.

The second half of the posuk reads:

ואוהבו שחרו מוסר.

There needs to be a last resort of discipline to control a child. But discipline does not teach, it controls. Inasmuch as a yeshiva has a mission to educate, the rod has its proper location hanging in a closet, and should not be used very much. The mechanech that believes he can teach by hitting is neither a mechanech, nor is he a suitable role model for תינוקות של בית רבן. He needs a different career. A true mechanech has multiple other tools to use that do not injure, hurt, embarrass, or otherwise have lasting negative effects. If a rebbi cannot produce a listening attentive child, he has failed to succeed, and he needs the negative consequences.

Lastly, the choice of interventions, with full recognition of Shulchan Aruch, is dependent on the outcome. If the result of hitting a talmid, even with justifiable excuse, will result in continued disobedience, including going OTD, then using that method is not chinuch, and is pure unadulterated assault. Shulchan Aruch discusses the sugya of חובל בחבירו. Check that one out.

TheFakeMaven:

You wrote: “i might add ‘and the experience of the beauty of Torah and mitzvos’… can only be done through teaching theology. Now, I don’t mean the philosophical aspect of theology, or as it is known as ‘chakira’ that is a pure waste of time, and most people will not understand it anyway. what I mean is either Chassidus or Nefesh Hachaim (or both as they are not mutually exclusive). Without teaching them the beauty of the Torahdige worldview one cannot show the ‘beauty of the mitzvas since without this deeper understanding the mitzvahs are nothing but a pressure.”

Whatever learning addresses the sheer beauty of Torah and mitzvos is great. But the emotional aspect is absorbed, rather than learned. This requires a role model, who displays how Torah and mitzvos are fulfilled, with anticipation, with motivation, with joy, with emotional connection, etc. If one never observes this, the studying of the greatest texts are in danger of barely making a dent – if that. All of Torah and mitzvos is about connecting to HKB”H, and the greatest connection is the loving relationship we have with HKB”H. The more we recognize the love He has for us, the more we can grasp at the love we need to feel for Him. But these sentences are only verbal descriptions of an emotional experience. We achieve this through experience, with vicarious experience being part of the deal. As for chinuch, the greatest flaw has been the failure of our mechanchim serving as role models. But I digress.

Go ahead and learn Nefesh Hachaim, Tanya, and whatever sifrei mussar and chassidus. The understanding needs to be a supplement to the experiential chinuch.